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Wednesday, June 29, 2011

Númenor, continued


Rhûn Darkmoon
Lihan Taifun           
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Hojo Warf               

We know very little about life in Númenor during its 2000 years of peace and glory.   What we know about them is mostly from their influence on Middle Earth.   The Númenoreans were great sailors and explorers.   Since the Valar forbade them to sail west, either to Aman or to their friends in Tol Ererssëa, they sailed east, and established colonies on the coasts of Middle Earth.  Elendil and his sons may have used some of these colonies as the starting points for building the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.

By the time of the Fall of Númenor, the “Faithful” {to the Valar} faction had been gradually moving to Middle Earth.   Some of the “King's Men” faction had also established themselves as tyrants in Middle Earth, especially in the South such as Umbar.

Tolkien modeled Middle Earth, and especially the Shire, after the rural Britain of his day.   Thus he isn't too strict about excluding “New World” crops like tomatoes, potatoes, and tobacco.   The hobbits “pipeweed” may not have been tobacco; it may have been some other “tobacco substitute” plant.

At least some of the plants in Númenor were brought from Aman by the Teleri.   The Teleri brought the White Tree, a descendant of the Noldor's own tree in Tirion.   (By this time, there were a good many Noldor returned from Middle Earth living in Tol Eressëa.) The Humans may have brought seeds with them from Middle Earth, as well.

How would contact with the Elves of Aman have affected Númenorean technology? Eönwë taught them combat skills, and the elves taught them healing (remember Aragorn and the kingsfoil) and brought the palantiri.

Meanwhile, back in Middle Earth, Elrond lived with Gil Galad for a while, until he settled in Rivendell.   Galadriel and Celeborn lived with the Elf kingdom west of Moria, where the Elven jewelers were practicing making Rings of Power.

The Valar rewarded the Humans who had fought for the good side in the War of Wrath, by giving them the island of Númenor, and long life, free of sickness.   The royal line of Númenor was also descended from Lúthien, and had extra long life from the Elvish (and Maia) ancestry.   Elros, the first king, lived to about 500 years.   Even Aragorn, after the bloodline was diluted, lived to about 200.  

It was Sauron who incited the Númenoreans to want more than their idyllic life.

Lihan Taifun:            Where were we discussing Numenor?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'So where did we get up to last week?'
Lihan Taifun:            we were surprised that they had such vague ideas of an afterlife. we wished we knew more about everyday life in Numenor
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That is right.'
Lihan Taifun:            we know hardly anything about the 2000 years when things were going well
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'That would easily fit in another three books all by themselves, I imagine.'
Hojo Warf:                Strife, wars, evil times, suffering, thats what makes for great stories and tales of heroic deeds. Numenor was glorious and strife free until the end and thus too boring to write stories about.
Lihan Taifun:            apparently. just like there are no stories about the Vanyar
Rhûn Darkmoon grins at Hojo, 'What is it in our nature that we seem only to hear of those things and find them exciting, I wonder.'
Lihan Taifun:            well, how can you heroically overcome obstacles, unless there are obstacles?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Ahh, that is quite true, my Lady.'
Lihan Taifun:            and what kind of story does it make, to say "I put up 24 quarts of peaches this year."?
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'True again, but surely they would have lived and loved greatly as well as made peaches. Some of the greatest stories have been love stories, you know.'
Lihan Taifun:            and they were sailors and explorers
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Indeed. One would think more adventures would have befallen them. Perhaps Mr Tolkien had plans to elaborate on their lives at some later date.'
Lihan Taifun:            that would have been fun
Hojo Warf:                Tolkien tells us of them not by stories of them but by showing their influence. You see it in the great works left behind. The kingdoms, the cities, Aragorn himself.
Lihan Taifun:            oh, good point
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Before the discussion I was reading in the Tolkien Gateway that they established remote colonies in Middle Earth.'
Hojo Warf:                Their mighty ships returned to Middle-earth in II 600, and there they founded havens and cities. so thats fairly early on in Numenor.
Lihan Taifun:            that would be
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'So he referred to Numenor in his other stories but did not tell of it directly?'
Hojo Warf:                He describes the history of it but there is no narrative of anyone there doing anything in a story form.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Thank you Hojo.'
Lihan Taifun:            There is a story somewhere about "the Mariner's Wife", which is kinda a soap opera of the royals
Lihan Taifun:            but it still doesn't tell a lot about ordinary life
Rhûn Darkmoon grins a little, 'As opposed to the soap opera of the Valar, which we seem to be creating with our role play.'
Lihan Taifun:            heh heh, yes, a soap opera; and not much like their ordinary life
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Soap operas rarely are.'
Lihan Taifun:            so we still don't know a lot about life in Numenor. we know they had annual festivals honoring Eru, because in the later bad days those festivals were neglected. but we don't know much about what happened at the festivals
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'Is there anything we can learn from their colonies in Middle Earth? Are they spoken of?'
Lihan Taifun:            would it be fair to say that the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor -- the north and south kingdoms -- were descended from those colonies?
Hojo Warf:                Well they founded the "havens" I assume they grey havens?
Lihan Taifun:            the grey havens were already built, by Cirdan and the elves, though the Nunenoreans visited there
Hojo Warf:                but arnor and gondor were founded after the fall by Elendil and his sons
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'The website I was reading said, "They landed in Middle-earth, where the followers of Elendil established two kingdoms which came to be known as as the realms of Exile: Gondor in the south, and Arnor in the north." .. so perhaps it is indeed fair to say that?'
Lihan Taifun:            founded by Elendil and his sons, but not in a vacuum. would they not have gone where Numenoreans had a presence already?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'One would think so, especially as the Numenorians had been colonising for some time.' 'Only rather than colonies they became Kingdoms.'
Lihan Taifun:            and the Numenoreans who were faithful to the Valar had been slowly moving out of Numenor, to Middle Earth. I can picture Elendil and his sons taking over the leadership of the colonies, and leveraging that into two kingdoms

Lihan Taifun:            ((either we are all dead tonight, or all badly lagged))
Rhûn Darkmoon whispers, 'Or all badly distracted.'
Hojo Warf:                yes I had to run afk a couple of times
Lihan Taifun:            oh, ok
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'From what I was reading though, it was not just the Faithful who settled in Middle Earth, but some of the King's Men also. "Some of the King's Men, enemies of Elendil, who were in Middle-earth at the time of the Downfall established other realms in exile to the south; of these the Haven of Umbar was the chief."
Lihan Taifun:            true. So not every colony would have welcomed the refugees
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Apparently not. Would other local cultures have had the same suspicion of strangers that was common in say, villages in dark ages Briton, where strangers were viewed with suspicion?'
Lihan Taifun:            with Sauron's minions running around, you would think so
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'The setting for the stories of Tolkien, was it supposed to be similar to medieval britain or elsewhere?'
Hojo Warf:                It has many aspects of his current rural britain. Hence potatoes
Lihan Taifun:            the hobbits certainly were. heh heh, yes, the potatoes and tobacco were not well explained
Rhûn Darkmoon chuckles
AelKennyr Rhiano:  but to the Brits of his time it would have been very familiar
Hojo Warf:                ah but the tobacco was "pipeweed". we're still not sure exactly what kind of weed...
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I had a teacher who suggested it was what we call rabbit tobacco
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Rabbit tobacco?'
Lihan Taifun:            and what is that?
AelKennyr Rhiano:
Lihan Taifun:            and that grows in England?
Hojo Warf:                Yes if it's a new world plant we are still left with the mystery
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well, that I don't know, but I think the point he was making was that many people would find a plant such as that as a substitute for tobacco during the 1930s, and before that during WWI. While he favored rabbit tobacco, and I can't prove it would be found in Britain, it could be that pipeweed was a similar substitution for factory processed tobacco
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'As there are many substitutes for tea and coffee during times of shortages. I myself have seen 'herbal' cigarettes for sale that are made from a variety of legal herbs and plants. They stink to high heaven but apparently are smokeable.'
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. rabbit tobacco is not all that fragrant
Lihan Taifun:            ok, so there might be alternative plants for "pipeweed"
AelKennyr Rhiano:  nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:            we know the Teleri visited Numenor, and brought them plants from Aman
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'Those Teleri get around a lot.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  heh heh heh
Lihan Taifun:            I'm not sure, but I think athelas was brought from Numenor to Middle Earth
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Athelas?'
Lihan Taifun:            well, all the plants in Numenor must have come from Aman ... unless Yavanna made up a whole new set for Numenor. kingsfoil, the healing plant that is Aragorn's favorite
AelKennyr Rhiano:  why all? Could they not have brought seed from middle earth?
Lihan Taifun:            oh, right, the Humans moving there could have brought plants. *slaps her forehead*
AelKennyr Rhiano:  or at least seeds. Those would be easy to transport.
Lihan Taifun:            people used to take fruit tree seedlings across the Altantic, it can be done. and seeds would be easy
AelKennyr Rhiano:  That was what I was thinking of.
Lihan Taifun:            you would think the first people would have taken some livestock with them, and that would be a lot harder to transport
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Do we know that they didn't?
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks of having to scrub the decks of a livestock transport and shudders
Lihan Taifun:            they might have taken some
AelKennyr Rhiano thinks of Rhun having to scrub the decks of a livestock transport and gives Rhun a toothsome smile.
Lihan Taifun:            what do you suppose the Teleri brought?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'What did the Teleri trade in?'
Lihan Taifun:            good question, what did the Teleri trade in?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  According to Tolkien...of course the bounty of the sea...but also pearls and rare jewels..
Rhûn Darkmoon sighs, 'Alas the sites I have been reading say little about the day to day life of Teleri also, only their general histories.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  and there is also the knowledge of sailing and navigation. The teleri were beloved of Ulmo and were taught by Osse the ways of the sea and the construction of the swanships.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'They would have had that common interest with the numenorians, no doubt.'
Lihan Taifun:            they taught the numenoreans sailing
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'So before the Teleri came, they did not know about sailing and being mariners?'
Lihan Taifun:            I was just thinking ... did they get a ride out to their island?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, how did they come to be there in the first place?'
Hojo Warf:                just reading here... are you sure it was the Teleri that head dealings with the numenoreans?
Lihan Taifun:            Elros's father was Earendil, but he was adopted as a boy, so he wouldn't have learned from his father
Hojo Warf:       Oh the elves gave them the white tree
Rhûn Darkmoon reads about the white tree
Hojo Warf:                In the early days of Númenor, its people still had the friendship of the Elves of Eressëa. Among the gifts the Eldar gave to the early Númenóreans, one of the greatest was a white seedling of the tree Celeborn that stood in the middle of their island. Planted in the King's Court in Armenelos, the seedling grew into a fine White Tree that came to be known as Nimloth. Its blossoms appeared as the Sun set, and their perfume filled the night in Númenor's royal city.
Lihan Taifun:            good point, by that time there were a lot of returned Noldor living in Tol Eressea
Lihan Taifun:            a seedling of the tree from Tirion -- that sound like something the Noldor would think of
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'So we know that for some time at least the Numenorians had the friendship of the elves?'
Lihan Taifun:            yes! and Elendil's faction was knows as "elf friends"
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Would this have affected their culture? Their knowledge of technology?'
Lihan Taifun:            it was the elves who gave them the palantiri. it would make sense if they learned some technology, besides ship building
AelKennyr Rhiano:  or at least how to employ the technology.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes I think so. And with this friendship, would they have travelled to the elven lands also?'
Lihan Taifun:            that was forbidden
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'So they could only travel to Middle Earth?'
Hojo Warf:                Forbidden to go to Aman but Tol Eressea?
Lihan Taifun:            Manwe wouldn't let Humans into the Undying Lands, not even Tol Eressea. the elves had to go to numenor, but the humans couldn't go to Tol Eressea
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Tol Eressea...was it, strictly speak ing in Aman?
Lihan Taifun:            weeeeeell, Manwe told the Numenoreans they weren't allowed to sail west out of sight of Numenor
Hojo Warf:                ah okay
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, I recall reading that.'
Lihan Taifun:            so Tol Eressea was off limits, even if it wasn't strictly IN Aman
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'They had to sail to the east, and hence to Middle Earth.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok...yes, I remember that but I thought Tol wasn't actually in Aman.
Rhûn Darkmoon blinks and thinks. So.. where were the elves we see in the story of the Ring? Where they held the Council of Eldrond?
Lihan Taifun:            Rivendell?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, Rivendell.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  They were in ...yes.
Lihan Taifun:            the elves in Middle Earth ... Galadriel and Celborn were in the lands west of Moria, where the elven jewelers were practicing making rings ;) Elrond was with Gil Galad for a while, until he settled in Rivendell
Rhûn Darkmoon nods in understanding, 'Ahh,so the elves had freedom to go just about anywhere, but the humans could not. Was there a reason for this?'
Lihan Taifun:            there was that messy bit with Sauron handing out rings of power, and the elves went to war with Sauron, though they had hard going for several centuries
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'It is hard to imagine a war lasting that long. If battles were fought often one wonders where the resupply of troops came from.'
Lihan Taifun:            I think it rather reduced the elf population in Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well, if humans could come to the undyling lands....would that affect their live spans, living so close to the Ainur? not regard the elves with jealous eyes for their longevity?
Lihan Taifun:            Manwe claimed it would not lengthen human lifespans
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Why were humans not given longevity of their own?'
Lihan Taifun:            the Numenoreans were given long life. the first king lived like 500 years
AelKennyr Rhiano:  and Aragon had a long, long life.
Lihan Taifun:            even Aragorn lived to ... what, about 200? ... I don't remember exactly
AelKennyr Rhiano:  something like that. he was in his late 80s at the time of the second book of the LOTR.
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Why were they given long life and not others? Or were the others also?'.. stops and blushes, 'Forgive me, my Lady, I am bombarding you with questions.'
Lihan Taifun:            the numenoreans were the ones who had helped the good guys, in the war with morgoth, so the valar were rewarding them. gave them a nice island all to themselves, and long life
Rhûn Darkmoon nods in understanding, 'Ahh, yes, that is quite right.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Combat compensation :)
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
Hojo Warf:                Was the long life a gift?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'What else would it be Hojo?'
Hojo Warf:                I had always assumed it was the mingling of elven blood from Elros. Just an assumption though. I haven't researched it.
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'But he was not the father of all the future Numenorians was he? Only of the royal house?'
Lihan Taifun:            right, there were a lot of other numenoreans
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Did they all live longish lives?'
Lihan Taifun:            just looking that up. apparently all the Numenoreans were long lived, and didn't get sick ... but the royal house, the decendants of Elros, were especially long lived. so, some of both reasons
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'So then it was a gift. Would that have continued then after they went to Middle Earth after the downfall of Numenor, do you think?'
Lihan Taifun:            There is Aragorn
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, but 200 years old is not that old for a royal numenorian. Perhaps it was like after the fall of Eden when men started to live less and less long?'
Lihan Taifun:            that would make sense. and fit the way Tolkien writes
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, it was what I was thinking also.'
Lihan Taifun:            "Eonwe came among them and taught them;and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed." I'm not sure what "power" he is referring to
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Go, Eonwe!
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'Clearly this was a long time ago, before Aule's bad influence.'
AelKennyr Rhiano nods.
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'I wonder what the power was'
Lihan Taifun:            "It was raised by Osse out of the depths of the Geat Water, and it was established by Aule and enriched by Yavanna; and the Eldar brought thither flowers and fountains out of Tol Eressea"
Hojo Warf:                Some little examples of power would be using palantirs or skill with healing, Aragorn and the athelas plant.
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'This is Numenor of which you speak, my Lady?'
Lihan Taifun:            that quote was about Numenor
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well, since it was Eonwe...skill at combat?
Lihan Taifun:            oh, AFTER the war he teaches them combat! there is a question: why would people who didn't get sick study medicine?
Hojo Warf:                Hmm maybe that is why they didn't get sick
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'While they might not get sick, still they would be able to be injured, yes? Falling off a roof while repairing it? Cutting their finger with a broken plate?'
Lihan Taifun:            true
AelKennyr Rhiano:  "Cutting a finger could be a very serious injury."
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'It would make you wonder why they ever sought more than such a life.' Rhûn Darkmoon arches an eyebrow and grins at Ael, 'So I have heard. It can be quite incapacitating.'
Lihan Taifun:            why they sought what?
Hojo Warf:                That was Sauron's doing.
Hojo Warf:                Why with such a life as they had in Numenor did they want the life of the undying lands.
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Sought more. Sought power.'.. nods at Hojo, 'Yes, that is right. For a moment I forgot his influence.'.. sighs
Lihan Taifun:            Sauron really hated the Numenoreans
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'why?'
Lihan Taifun:            either because they were free and happy and a force that could challenge his power, or because their ancestors helped bring down Morgoth
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That makes sense. Revenge.'
Lihan Taifun:            (and cleared the way for Sauron to take his place ... wait, that doesn't make a good reason)
Rhûn Darkmoon blinks, 'But wasn't Sauron a liegeman to Morgoth?'
Lihan Taifun:            yes, but, where was he during the War of Wrath? and, he sure was doing well for himself in the Second Age, on is own
Rhûn Darkmoon sighs, 'Ahh, the questions we would ask him, if only Mr Tolkien were still alive.'
Lihan Taifun:            so I wonder how heartbroken he really was about Morgoth's defeat. not that it would make him grateful to the Numenoreans
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Was he ever grateful to anyone, really?'
Lihan Taifun:            that would be an unselfish emotion, so it would be hard to imagine in Sauron
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I don't think he was acquainted with the emotion of gratitude.
Rhûn Darkmoon blinks and thinks a moment, 'Was he always so bad though? Did he lose all softer emotion, have none he held in trust or held dear?'
{People have to leave. Farewells.}
Lihan Taifun:            it really is hard to imagine Sauron ever had a soft side
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Yet he was not always bad, was he? Perhaps.. perhaps we could discuss him next week?'

Tuesday, June 28, 2011

Quenya Review Exercises — Answers

< Exercises

a white flower   ninquë lótë
red apples   carni orvar
sweet apples   lissi orvar
These apples are sweet.   Sinë orvar (nar) lissi.  ("Nar" is optional here.)
That flower is pale blue.   Tana lótë (ná) helwa.
Blackberries are black.   Piuccar (nar) mori.
This cow is brown.   Sina yaxë (ná) varnë.
Dogs and cows are animals.   Huor ar yaxi nar celvar.

sindë huo   a grey dog
Aiwë linda.   (The) small bird is sweet-sounding.
Nizl ná melda winë.   Nizl is a dear child.
Orvar ar piuccar nar lissi yávi.   Apples and blackberries are sweet fruits.

my dog   huonya
your apple (formal)   orvalya
your flower (familiar)   lótetya
your flowers (familiar)   lótetyar
your (a group's) animals   celvaldar
Her cow is white.   Yaxerya (ná) ninquë.
That animal is his dog.   Tana celva ná huorya.
Their (a group's) apples are sweet.   Orvaltar (nar) lissi.
Nolë lives in Alqualondë. (in general)   Nolë marë Alqualondessë.
Nolë and Elenwë live in Alqualondë.   Nolë ar Elenwë marir Alqualondessë.

Nolë is living in Alqualondë. (currently)   Nolë mára Alqualondessë.
Nolë and Elenwë are living in Alqualondë.   Nolë ar Elenwë márar Alqualondessë.

Nolë lived in Alqualondë. Nolë marnë Alqualondessë.
Nolë and Elenwë lived in Alqualondë. Nolë ar Elenwë marnër Alqualondessë.

Nolë will live in Alqualondë.   Nolë maruva Alqualondessë.
Nolë and Elenwë will live in Alqualondë.   Nolë ar Elenwë maruvar Alqualondessë.

May Elenwë live in Alqualondë!   Nai Elenwë maruva Alqualondessë!
Maybe Nolë lives in Alqualondë.   Cé Nolë marë Alqualondessë.
Live in Alqualondë!   Á marë Alqualondessë!
Don't live in Alqualondë!   Áva marë Alqualondessë!

Estelin cuts apples. (in general)   Estelin rista orvar.
Estelin and Apakenwë cut apples.   Estelin ar Apakenwë ristar orvar.

Estelin is cutting an apple. (now)   Estelin ristëa orva.
Estelin and Apakenwë are cutting an apple.   Estelin ar Apakenwë ristëar orva.

Estelin cut apples. (yesterday)   Estelin ristanë orvar.
Estelin and Apakenwë cut apples.   Estelin ar Apakenwë ristanër orvar.

Estelin will cut apples.   Estelin ristuva orvar.
Estelin and Apakenwë will cut apples.   Estelin ar Apakenwë ristuvar orvar.

Cut these apples!   Á rista sinar orvar!
Don't cut that apple!   Áva rista tana orva!

Olwë governs Alqualondë.   Olwë turë Alqualondë.
I saw a dragon in Alqualondë.   Cennën lócë Alqualondessë.
The evil cow is eating my apples.   Ulca yaxë máta orvanyar.
Curse that cow!   Á hútë tana yaxë!

My ship will come.   Ciryanya tuluva.
Count their ships.   Á notë ciryaltar.
Find my green shirt.   Á hirë laica laupenya.
I live here.   Marin sinomë.
My home is your home!   Marinya marilya! (or maritya, less formal)
My happiness is complete.   Alassenya quanta.
Elenwë is smiling.   Elenwë raitëa.
I will rule Middle Earth!!!   Turuvan Endórë!!!
> Review    

Quenya Lesson 7 - Review

 < Review Exercise Answers    

Lihan Taifun (teaching)
Shawn Daysleeper
Rhûn Darkmoon
AelKennyr Rhiano (later)

More original sentences people wrote today:
Lihan ná vanya.          Lihan is beautiful (to look at).
Shawn ar Lihan nar míri.           Shawn and Lihan are jewels.
Rhun ná málonya          Rhun is my friend.
Ael herulva or Ael ná herulva          Ael is our lord.

meldo            friend
heru/heri     lord/lady
herinya         my lady
melda            dear
-lva, -elva     our (a group, including the person listening)


The English particle “a” (“a flower”) is left out in Quenya.
     lótë     flower, a flower
Often “the” is left out, too.

The adjective usually goes before the noun. It isn't wrong to put it after the noun, but it could be confusing, since “noun adjective” could also be read “noun is adjective
     ninquë lótë     (a) white flower
     lótë ninquë     (a) white flower, or “(The) flower is white”

> Next Week     

Monday, June 27, 2011

Quenya Review Exercises

< Review Summary     
Practice translating
Nouns and Adjectives
handy vocubulary
ná             is
nar           are
ar             and
sina         this [adjective]
tana         that [adjective]

morë      black
helwa    pale blue
carnë     red
ninquë  white
varnë    brown
sindë    grey
vanya   beautiful (of looks)
linda    beautiful (of sound)
lissë      sweet
melda   dear, sweet, beloved

celva     animal
aiwë      (small) bird
huo        dog
yaxë       cow

olva       plant
yávë       fruit
orva       apple
piucca   berry, blackberry
lótë        flower
winë      young child
a white flower
red apples
sweet apples
These apples are sweet.  (Hint: “These” is the plural of “this”.)
That flower is pale blue.
Blackberries are black.
This cow is brown.
Dogs and cows are animals.

sindë huo
Aiwë linda.
Nizl ná melda winë.
Orvar ar piuccar nar lissi yávi.

Possessive Pronouns

 my dog
your apple (formal)
your flower (familiar)
your flowers (familiar)
your (a group's) animals
Her cow is white.
That animal is his dog.
Their (a group's) apples are sweet.
mar-                     live (at a location)  (past tense marnë)
rista-                    cut                             (past tense ristanë)
Alqualondessë   in Alqualondë
Nolë lives in Alqualondë. (in general)      Nolë marë Alqualondessë.
Nolë and Elenwë live in Alqualondë.

Nolë is living in Alqualondë. (currently)
Nolë and Elenwë are living in Alqualondë.

Nolë lived in Alqualondë.
Nolë and Elenwë lived in Alqualondë.

Nolë will live in Alqualondë.
Nolë and Elenwë will live in Alqualondë.

May Elenwë live in Alqualondë!
Maybe Nolë lives in Alqualondë.
Live in Alqualondë!
Don't live in Alqualondë!

Estelin cuts apples. (in general)
Estelin and Apakenwë cut apples.

Estelin is cutting an apple. (now)
Estelin and Apakenwë are cutting an apple.

Estelin cut apples. (yesterday)
Estelin and Apakenwë cut apples.

Estelin will cut apples.
Estelin and Apakenwë will cut apples.

Cut these apples!
Don't cut that apple!


cen-       see                                (past tense cennë)
hanta-  thank                            (past tense hantanë)
hir–      find                               (past tense hirnë)
húta-    curse                             (past tense hútanë)
lanta-   fall                                 (past tense lantanë)
mat-     eat                                  (past tense mantë)
not-      count                             (past tense nontë)
raita-   smile                              (past tense rëantë)
tul-      come (here)                  (past tense tullë)
tur-     control, govern, rule   (past tense turnë)

culuina   orange (color)
laica        green
lossë        snow-white
malina    yellow
polda      strong, muscular
quanta    full, complete
sinomë   here, in this place
ulca         evil

alassë   happiness
apsa      cooked food
cirya      ship
Endórë  Middle Earth
lassë       leaf
laupë    shirt, tunic
lócë       dragon
mar      home
mírë      jewel
parma  book

Elda     (High) Elf
Firya    human, mortal
Adan    human, "Second"
Casar    Dwarf (That's the polite term, though Norno is a more common word.)
Olwë governs Alqualondë.
I saw a dragon in Alqualondë.
The evil cow is eating my apples
Curse that cow!

My ship will come.
Count their ships.
Find my green shirt.
I live here.
My home is your home!
My happiness is complete.
Elenwë is smiling.
I will rule Middle Earth!!!

> Review Lesson     > Answers    

Quenya Review Summary

< Lesson 5     

A concise summary of the forms we have learned so far:

The basic plural (“all the ~”, “~ in general”) is formed by adding either -r or -i.
   -r after vowel except -ë
   -r after -ië
   -i replaces -ë
   -i after consonant

Possessive Pronouns (when added to the end of nouns)
   after        after
  vowel    consonant
     -nya        -inya     my
     -lya         -elya      your (one person, formal/polite)
     -tya         -etya     your (one person, informal/familiar)
     -lda         -elda     your (a group)
     -rya         -erya     his/her/its (This is the “correct” form.)
     -lta          -elta      their
If the nouns is plural, add the plural ending -r after the possessive.

If the noun is plural, the adjective should also be in the plural:
     -a --> -ë
     -ë --> -i
     -ëa --> -ië

For any verb, add -r

Aorist present (timeless truths)
Basic verb: -ë , -i- if any other ending is added
     matë (one person) eats
     matir (several people) eat
A Stem: -a

Continuative present (happening now; is ~ing)
Basic Verb: lengthen vowel (add accent), add -a
     máta is eating
A Stem: lengthen vowel, unless it falls before a consonant cluster, replace -a with -ëa
     lantëa is falling

Past Tense
ends in -ë
There are enough exceptions to the patterns that you should look up the past tense for each verb.

Future Tense:
     -uva (replaces the -a on A-stem verbs)

Add -ë to basic verbs. Leave A-stem verbs unchanged.
Use á (do it!) or áva (don't!)
     á matë! eat!
same for singular and plural

Subject pronouns, when attached to a verb
     -nyë, -n                       I
     -lyë, -l                          you (one person, formal/polite)
     -tyë                               you (one person, informal/familiar)
     -ldë                               you (a group)
     -s,  (rarely -së)           he/she/it
     -ltë (variant: -ntë)     they( plural)
The plural pronouns do not need -r added.

Aorist Present Tense (general meaning; timeless truths)
     Lassë lanta.      A leaf falls.
     Lassi lantar.     Leaves fall.

Continuative Present Tense (right now)
     Lassë lantëa.     A leaf is falling.
     Lassi lantëar.    Leaves are falling.

Past Tense
     Lassë lantanë.     A leaf fell.
     Lassi lantanër.    Leaves fell.

Future Tense
     Lassë lantuva.     A leaf will fall.
     Lassi lantuvar.    Leaves will fall.

     Nai lassë lantuva!     May a leaf fall!
     Nai lassi lantuvar!    May leaves fall!

     Cé lassë lanta.          Maybe a leaf falls.
     Cé lassë lantanë.     Maybe a leaf fell.
     Cé lassë lantuva.     Maybe a leaf will fall.

(Singular and plural are the same.)
     Lassë, á lanta!         Leaf, fall!
     Á lanta, lassi!          Fall, leaves!
     Áva lanta, lassë!     Don't fall, leaf!

> Review Exercises    

Wednesday, June 22, 2011

Númenor — Silmarillion "Akallabêth"

Rhûn Darkmoon
Lihan Taifun            
AelKennyr Rhiano  
Shawn Daysleeper  

The story of Númenor, and its sinking, is of course related to the legend of Atlantis.

Plot synopsis:
After Morgoth was defeated at the end of the First Age, the Valar encouraged the Noldor Elves of Middle Earth to return to Aman, and built an island (Númenor) to be a home for the Faithful humans – those who had rejected Morgoth and aided the Valar and the Noldor in the War of Wrath.   The Númenoreans lived for over 2000 years in peace and prosperity, friendship with the Teleri Elves of Tol Eressëa, and respect for Eru and the Valar.  

The Númenoreans were exceptional shipbuilders and sailors.   They sometimes visited MiddleEarth, and sometimes attempted to teach the Humans there (who lived in barbaric conditions, under the fear of Sauron) skills such as agriculture.   The Valar forbade them to sail to Aman (or Tol Eressëa) – lands which had always been off limits to Humans.

Back in Middle earth, Sauron proclaimed himself “King of Men.” The king of Númenor got jealous, decided he was going to be King of Men, took a large fleet to Middle Earth, and challenged Sauron.  Sauron decided he couldn't count on a military victory, so he pretended to surrender, and was taken back to Númenor as a captive.  

Sauron soon managed to talk his way into the king's councils, and became high priest of a cult worshipping Melkor.   He convinced the King to invade Aman and seize immortality.   (Not true.   Even if a Human did set foot in Aman, this would not grant immortality.)

Meanwhile, Elendil, his family, and the remaining faction that respected the Valar took their ships and fled back to Middle Earth, just in time.

When King Ar-Pharazôn landed in Aman and claimed it as his own, the Valar asked Eru Ilúvatar to intervene.   Eru opened a chasm in the ocean.   The island of Númenor sank into the chasm, and the resulting tsunami washed away King Ar-Pharazôn and his entire fleet.   Aman was moved to a parallel dimension, to avoid similar problems in the future.  

Was it appropriate for the Valar to evacuate their favorites to an offshore paradise, and leave the rest of MiddleEarth to the forces of evil? How much were the Valar forbidden to interfere in the affairs of the world, and how much are we speculating from the fact that they seldom did interfere? (And how much are we embellishing for our own Fourth Age roleplay purposes?)

The downfall of Númenor was said to be the second fall of Men, the first being when Humans first awoke and fell swiftly under the dominion of Morgoth.  

The Fall of Númenor is a story about the loss of a Golden Age.   This would be a poignant theme for Tolkien, who was a young man during World War 1 – a war where advances in technology suddenly increased both the scale and the impersonal nature of the killing.  

Sauron's body was drowned when Númenor sank.  He had to re-manifest a new, less-pretty body for the Third Age.   Evil Ainur seem to gradually lose their abilities to form new bodies, or their control over the shapes they take, perhaps because they become detached from the power of the Song.   Sauron had also already put a lot of his own energy into the One Ring.

Saruman's original intellectual interest in the technology of Rings of Power gradually became corrupted into a desire for power.   Is technology inherently related to a desire for power?

The Númenoreans were susceptible to Sauron's influence because of their fear of death.  We find it surprising, but Tolkien makes it clear that the Númenoreans had only vague and unsatisfying ideas about their fate after death.

Lihan Taifun:             what do we have to say about Numenor? :)
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes and confesses, 'That I know very little about it and was hoping to learn something?'
Lihan Taifun:             2000 years of golden age, that might be a record for Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Yes, it was the greatest of the realms of men.
Lihan Taifun:             although, we again see the recurring theme of the Valar building a paradise, evacuating their favorites there, and leaving the rest of Middle Earth to Melkor
AelKennyr Rhiano:   It was supposed to represent Atlantis myth, right?
Rhûn Darkmoon frowns a little, 'So the Valar were not always impartial?'
Lihan Taifun:             it was certainly related to the Atlantis myth
AelKennyr Rhiano:   :)
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'Did it not also sink?'
Lihan Taifun:             Numenor sank, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:   nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             the Valar never claimed to be impartial, did they?
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Were they not supposed to interfere? To take sides in the affairs of the world?'
Lihan Taifun:             that was not in their initial description
AelKennyr Rhiano:   The Prime Directive came later?
Lihan Taifun:             I thought we made that part up
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'We did?'
Lihan Taifun:             although, by Third Age, it sure didn't look like the Valar were interfering much. at the end of the First Age, they built Numenor, and then didn't do much else. at the end of Second Age, they asked to have Aman removed from the physical plane, and had even less to do with events in Middle Earth. but that is just a description of their actions
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Why did they ask that, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun:             to prevent anyone else from trying to sail unauthorized to Aman
AelKennyr Rhiano:   I was trying to remember if there were another reason.
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Why would they not want people sailing to Aman?'
Lihan Taifun:             the last king of Numenor tried to invade Aman. that is what made him the LAST king
Rhûn Darkmoon gives a soft chuckle, 'Yes, that would be a good reason why he was the last king.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   that and the destruction of the white tree
Lihan Taifun:             which was a token of their rejecting the Valar and their friendship with the elves
AelKennyr Rhiano:   and the sacrifice of the Elendili, the ones friendly to the elves and obedient to the Valar
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'They certainly did not seem very bright, or perhaps they were arrogant?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   it was also incredibly...yeah...what he said
Rhûn Darkmoon grins
Lihan Taifun:             they listened to the advice of Sauron
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Ok, not bright then.'.. grins
AelKennyr Rhiano:   nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             they thought that , if they were living in Aman, they would become immortal
AelKennyr Rhiano:   and would that have been the truth?
Lihan Taifun:             not at all, as Manwe had told them previously
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'So they thought the land was the source of the immortality?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   or at least from their perspective?
Lihan Taifun:             they thought that
AelKennyr Rhiano:   The downfall of Númenor was said to be the second fall of Men, the first being when Men first awoke and fell swiftly under the dominion of Morgoth. I have that correct?
Lihan Taifun:             that is what I heard
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Is it not common though, when civilisations have thrived and flourished they also somehow become corrupt and end up self destructing?'
Lihan Taifun:             it does seem so. though maybe that is the same as saying a civilization doesn't keep getting better forever
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Civilizations have life spans, just like people
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Now, am I right, also, that Tolkien originally intended this to be a part of a time-travel story
Lihan Taifun:             I hadn't heard that part
AelKennyr Rhiano:   I wish I could remember more I may have that wrong, though.
Rhûn Darkmoon muses to himself about time travel. 'What would his purpose have been though, in having it thus?"
AelKennyr Rhiano:   It certainly is a story about the End of a Golden Age. And that would have been very poignant during Tolkien's lifetime.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, you are quite right'
Lihan Taifun:             end of the British Empire?
AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes, but also the time around WWI. He was a young man, I believe, when WWI happened.
Lihan Taifun:             he fought in it, I think, so that would fit
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'So he would have lived through times of great change.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   oh yes....and That was dubbed the end of Innocence
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'It was certainly the end of a gracious era.'
Lihan Taifun:             were they more innocent before?
AelKennyr Rhiano:   If I remember correctly, he got sick, as many young men did with trench fever, and had to be evacuated home. He came home alive, but a lot of his close friends did not.
Lihan Taifun nods. That would have happened a lot
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Well, until WWI, warfare was much more up close and personal. Some point to WWI as the first instance of chemical warfare.
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'I think perhaps that mankind had never seen war before on the scale they did with the Great War. They saw the true barbarity of what man will do to man.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   It was the second deadliest conflict in World history. at least as far as the West went.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes'
Lihan Taifun:             the wonders of technology -- kill people on larger scales
AelKennyr Rhiano:   We think of genocide and ethnic cleansing and think of WWI...but WWI actually was the start of that on such a wide scale.
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'So it would most definitely have had an impact on Tolkien, there can be no doubt, I think.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Something close to 1 million Armenians were killed as a result. Yes, I think that when Tolkien was writing, he was thinking of WWI
Lihan Taifun:             he had a good part of it written before WWII started

Rhûn Darkmoon:      'So what did Numinor achieve while it existed?'
Lihan Taifun:             advanced technology (never described), a good standard of living for its people. at one stage they taught some basics to the humans of Middle Earth
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'So Tolkien mentioned 'advanced technology', but did not elaborate?
Lihan Taifun:             they "became mighty in crafts, so that if they had had the mind they could easily have surpassed the evil kings of MIddle-earth in the making of war and the forging of weapons; but they were become men of peace. Above all arts they nourished ship-building and sea-craft, and they became mariners whose like shall never be again"
AelKennyr Rhiano:   hmmmm....they partied with the Teleri
Lihan Taifun:             and they partied with the Teleri, they did!
Rhûn Darkmoon listens with interest, 'And over time this mightiness seems to have gone to their heads?'
Lihan Taifun:             yes, one of the kings of Numenor went to Middle Earth and took Sauron captive -- not realizing this was all part of Sauron's plan
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Why would that have been part of Sauron's plan?'
Lihan Taifun:             well, Sauron had proclaimed himself "King of Men" in MIddle Earth
Rhûn Darkmoon listens
Lihan Taifun:             and the king of Numenor got jealous, and decided HE was going to be King of Men, and took a large fleet to Middle Earth, and challenged Sauron. Sauron decided he couldn't count on a military victory, so he pretended to surrender, and was taken back to Numenor as a captive, but managed to talk his way into the king's councils. you can imagine what would happen to a king who took Sauron as his chief advisor
Shawn Daysleeper:   nods
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Sauron sounds like he was very crafty and silver tongued. Are we sure he wasn't part Teleri?'
Lihan Taifun:             so, from Sauron's point of view, it was a surer way to destroy Numenor than he could have managed on his own
Shawn Daysleeper:   yes, he did well to secure numenor
Lihan Taifun:             but I think that was the last time Sauron could take a pleasing appearance
AelKennyr Rhiano gives Rhun a sharp look
Rhûn Darkmoon opens his grey eyes wide in innocence and smiles back at Ael
Lihan Taifun:             he -- his body -- drowned when Numenor sank, and he had to manifest a new body again
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'and he could not take on a nice one?
Lihan Taifun:             but he was getting weaker, and the next one -- the Third Age body -- ... right, wasn't such a nice one. he had less ability to make a body contrary to his inner nature
Rhûn Darkmoon pauses and thinks, 'He was a maia, yes? So each time he lost a body he was weaker when he manifested one again?
Shawn Daysleeper:   yes, very true
Lihan Taifun:             after the end of the Third Age, we all really hope he doesn't have the energy to make a new body at all
AelKennyr Rhiano:   no kidding.
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Ahhh, now I understand.'
Lihan Taifun:             he was a Maia
AelKennyr Rhiano:   in an exasperated voice..."That is soooooo last age."
Shawn Daysleeper:   lol at Ael
Rhûn Darkmoon gives a snort of laughter and tries to hide it as a cough
Shawn Daysleeper:   and the 3rd age body was tied to the fate of the one ring
Lihan Taifun:             Tolkien never explains, but it seems to be only the evil maia who have trouble manifesting bodies, so we speculate that becoming evil drains their energy, or prevents them from recharging, or soemthing like that
Shawn Daysleeper:   that could be the cost of going against the Song?
Lihan Taifun:             true, Shawn, he would have lost the energy he put into the Ring. that would make sense, being cut off from the source of their lives
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Or, like the case of Fallen angels in Christianity, they lose part of their "grace" once they fall.
Shawn Daysleeper:   that was clear with Saruman
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes that all makes sense
Shawn Daysleeper:   Saruman perhaps changed the most when he became evil
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun:             how so, Shawn?
Shawn Daysleeper:   his powers, he rejected the white powers given to him by the Valar (good) and accepted the many colours (his own device or evil), not to say physical appearance changes and attitude
Lihan Taifun:             did his physical appearance change?
Shawn Daysleeper:   he became bent and much older, "Sharkey"
Lihan Taifun:             hmmm, ok
Shawn Daysleeper:   unless my timing is off. back to topic though hehe
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks he is quite short enough without becoming bent
Lihan Taifun:             we never see him when he was still truly good
AelKennyr Rhiano:   That is true. Was he ever truly good?
Shawn Daysleeper:   I believe he was a maia of Aule?
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'How do you define 'truly good'? He was one of aule's maiar originally and when you think on aule's character was he even truly good?'
Shawn Daysleeper:   how do you define evil then?
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Not good?'.. grins
Shawn Daysleeper:   it's a hazy line it seems
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks of a certain black dragoness who chews lady's dresses and elves boots and ears
AelKennyr Rhiano:   lol
Shawn Daysleeper:   lol
Lihan Taifun:             I thought he started out with just an intellectual interest in understanding the rings of power
AelKennyr Rhiano:   and it quickly turned into ambition?
Lihan Taifun:             which would I'm sure be an interesting technological question
Shawn Daysleeper:   nods I have wondered that myself
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Could the rings of power themselves have affected him?'
Lihan Taifun:             well, he never had one of the rings of power
Shawn Daysleeper:   simply wanting the ring drove saruman to evil, and the palantir of Orthanc did not help
Lihan Taifun:             so, would that not be the same as saying he got hungry for power?
AelKennyr Rhiano:   that is an interesting question.
Shawn Daysleeper:   I agree Lihan. so it is not necessarilly technology, but power?
Lihan Taifun:             like many technologies, it gives power
Shawn Daysleeper:   that affects becoming evil?
Shawn Daysleeper:   nods
AelKennyr Rhiano mulls this over
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'So power corrupts. That's the constant theme through his work? All except for a hobbit, power corrupts?'
Lihan Taifun:             technology on its own is generally not evil
Shawn Daysleeper:   power corrupted the Noldor of the 1st Age
AelKennyr Rhiano:   And is that what happens to the men of Numenor?
Shawn Daysleeper:   the lust for the silmarls
Lihan Taifun:             the hobbit held out longer than most, but even Frodo didn't resist to the end. Frodo was saved by his earlier choices. and then he has another test back in the Shire
Shawn Daysleeper:   The men of Numenor were promised power by sauron I believe, the power to defeat the Valar
Lihan Taifun:             yes, Shawn, and immortality
Shawn Daysleeper:   right
Rhûn Darkmoon listens quietly. Rhûn Darkmoon frowns a little, 'I still find it hard to believe that men and a maia would think they had it in them to overthrow the Valar
Shawn Daysleeper:   power corrupts. it affects reasonable thinking
AelKennyr Rhiano:   It is a common seeking to challenge the gods
Lihan Taifun:             true, but that generation of Numenoreans hadn't had any contact with the Valar
Shawn Daysleeper:   it also hampers logic. hinders logic
Lihan Taifun:             so, given the choice between believing old legends, and believing the flattery of Sauron ....
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles softly, 'So one must really learn to beware of the silver tongue, it would seem.'
Lihan Taifun eyes Rhun speculatively
AelKennyr Rhiano eyes Rhun with raised eyebrows. "Did you just say that?"
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles innocently at Ael, 'Is not Belenos always calling you her silvertongued elf?'
Lihan Taifun:             so, ahem, Numenor
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Numenor
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles quietly to himself and turns back to the discussion, 'Yes, Numenor'
AelKennyr Rhiano mutters about elven whippersnappers.
Lihan Taifun:             another theme would be what the fear of death will drive people to
AelKennyr Rhiano:   and the quest for eternal life
Lihan Taifun:             yes
Rhûn Darkmoon nods and tilts his head a little as he thinks, 'So.. so the men did not believe in an afterlife?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Even those who believe an afterlife will seek not to die at all.
Lihan Taifun:             Tolkien's humans are always unsure about what happens to their spirits after death. even the Valar don't know
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'How interesting'
Lihan Taifun:             the Valar know that human spirits leave this universe, but they don't know any more detail, unlike elvish spirits, which stay in Mandos until they are reincarnated either in Aman or in Middle Earth
Lihan Taifun:             I'm sure Tolkien felt it was important that human destiny should be compatible with his own Catholic beliefs
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'And perhaps he did not feel he should dare to dictate for certain one's ultimate fate?'
Lihan Taifun:             so the Numenoreans didn't have a strong tradion of afterlife
AelKennyr Rhiano:   wait...because they had to mesh with his Catholicism, they did not have a strong tradition of an after life?
Lihan Taifun:             well, how could he reconcile Middle Earth cosmology with Catholic ideas of afterlife? besides what he did, that nobody inside Arda knew how human destiny worked
AelKennyr Rhiano:   I am not Catholic, but, um...I would think Catholics have a very STRONG tradition of an afterlife?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'They do.'
Lihan Taifun:             yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Soo, why wouldn't the humans of Numenor?
Lihan Taifun:             sooo, would Tolkien give them the Catholic explanation? or some other tradition?
AelKennyr Rhiano:   I think I am lost. I mean, Tolkien made it clear that humans go somewhere else, not the halls of Mandos, and leaves it at that.
Lihan Taifun:             right
AelKennyr Rhiano:   But that would not mean that the humans themselves have a vague idea of their life after death. They may have very strong ideas.
Lihan Taifun:             The elves that come to Numenor tell them : "This we hold to be true, that your home is not here, niether in the Land of Aman nor anywhere withn the Circles of the World. And the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Iluvatar. It became a grief to them only because coming under the shadow of Morgoth it seemed to them that they were surrounded by a great darkness, of which they were afraid, and some grew wilful and proud and would not yield, until life was reft fom them"

and the kings of Numenor are saying "... while we must die and go we know not whither, leaving our home and all that we have made?"
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Ahhh....I respectfully conceded the point.
Lihan Taifun:             Tolkien may have found himself in over his head, trying to handle the final destiny of humans
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'would not any human?'
Lihan Taifun:             a danger of world-building
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Indeed, that is true.
{Shawn has to leave. Farewells.}

Lihan Taifun:             do we want to continue Numenor next week?
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Why don't we?
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles shyly, 'I would like that if we may? I think there is still more to learn of it, yes?'
Lihan Taifun:             I would think so
AelKennyr Rhiano:   me, too. Great class tonight :)
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'I have found today's discussion very enjoyable.'.. blushes, 'Although I fear I was listening and learning more than discussing.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Very interesting discussion.
Lihan Taifun:             listening and learning is fine
AelKennyr Rhiano:   I did, too, Rhun.
Lihan Taifun:             I didn't quite get the whole chapter read this week
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Lihan is a wonderful moderator.
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'I fear we may wear the Lady out if we do not soon begin to contribute more. I shall certainly have to brush up on my Tolkien, methinks.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   I think I am the least familiar with this part.
Lihan Taifun:             it would be fascinating to know more about ordinary life in Numenor, but as far as I know Tolkien didn't write much
AelKennyr Rhiano:   yes.. it would... Tolkien offers us so little of that.
Lihan Taifun:             some stories about the soap operas of the royals, but not much about actual life
AelKennyr Rhiano:   and you have to wonder at if they were afraid of the did they fill that spiritual void?
Lihan Taifun:             yes, that doesn't seem very much like the humans I know. well, not all the humans I know have theories, but a large fraction of them do
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'Methinks even those who do not admit it still ponder what happens after death.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   You could expect, reasonably a percentage of the population to be disaffected by thoughts of an afterlife, but a whole civilization? Then, again, is it true that the Jewish faith does not traditionally support an afterlife? I have always been confused about that? If that is so, then we have a real life case for the Numenoreans not as well
Lihan Taifun:             I have heard that about the Jewish faith, although, from what I hear, there are some groups there with a form of afterlife; a later addition, though
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks a moment, 'Did I not read in the news recently about some jewish judges ordering the stoning of a dog because they believed it was a man whom they'd previously cursed reincarnate?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:   Really?
Lihan Taifun:             I read that, although it didn't sound like anything I had heard of before
AelKennyr Rhiano:   I have not either
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'I must confess it drew my eye for I did not think the jews believed in reincarnation.'
Lihan Taifun:             no, I had never heard of that before, either. I wouldn't think it was a very "mainstream" approach
AelKennyr Rhiano:
Lihan Taifun:             aha
Rhûn Darkmoon:      'And yet it was a panel of judges who ordered it.'.. shrugs a little in confusion
Lihan Taifun:             yes, confusing
AelKennyr Rhiano: ah-ha :)

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.
Lihan Taifun:             but then Israel attracts Jews from all over the world, so whatever variety of beliefs existed would likely all get thrown together
AelKennyr Rhiano:   that is true. They would have had a lot of external influences.