This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2011

Quenya Lesson 4 -- Verbs, Present Tense

< Lesson 3

Lihan Taifun            (teaching)
Rhûn Darkmoon     
Siwan Sandalwood 


General Note 1 About Verbs:

Quenya verbs are divided into two forms. (Fortunately you can tell, just by looking, which form you are dealing with.)

"Basic" verbs, simple words ending in a consonant:
     mat-  eat,
     car-   do, make,
     tul-    come

and "A stem" verbs, which have an ending (such as "–ya" or "–ta") added. These always end in –a–
     lanta-   fall
     ulya-     pour
     harna-  wound

General Note 2 About Verbs:

The discussions below shows how to form verbs for a single subject (“he/she”). If the subject is plural (“they”)(and there is no subject-pronoun attached to the end of the verb – a future topic) add –r to the verb to make it plural.
     lassë lanta     a leaf falls
     lassi lantar    leaves fall


Someone has compiled a complete set of the forms of Quenya verbs:


Present Tense:

Quenya has two (or maybe three) forms that we would call “present tense”:  Aorist tense and Continuative tense. There are also situations where there is an implied verb “is”.

(Is “Aorist” an English word? It is at least a “linguistics” word.)

Aorist” present tense expresses the simple, unmodified, unlimited meaning of the verb. Use this form for general, timeless truths. It is often translated by the English present tense.

Forming Aorist verbs:
     Basic verb: add -ë (or –i– if any other ending is added)
          matë     (one person) eats
          matir    (several people) eat (Remember adding –r for the plural?)

     A Stem: ends in -a
          (That makes A-stem verbs come out just like their plain ordinary dictionary form.)
           lassë lanta     a leaf falls
           lassi lantar    leaves fall

Continuative Present Tense
Continuative” present tense expresses an action that is happening right now. It is sometimes translated as “is ~ing”. Some situations could appropriately use either Aorist or Continuative.

Forming Continuative verbs:
     Basic Verb: lengthen the vowel (add accent), and add –a
          máta     is eating

     A Stem: lengthen the vowel, unless it falls before a consonant cluster, (remember, long vowels never occur before a consonant cluster)
          and replace –a with –ëa
               lantëa     is falling

Examples of timeless truths (Aorist)
     "I am a mermaid"
     "Dogs eat meat."

vs. present actions (Continuative):
     "I am wearing human clothes"
     "That dog is eating my dinner!"


Implied “Is”
You can leave out the "is" in a sentence, if it is just joining a noun and an adjective.

"That table (is) beige and white": in Quenya you wouldn't even bother with the "is".

An ordinary adjective comes before the noun. (Correcting last lesson to reflect this.) If the adjective comes after the noun, it becomes a sentence, “Noun is adjective.”.
     calima Anar      the bright Sun
     Anar calima     The Sun is bright.


Quenya word for the day:
     "Hantanyel" — “Thank you”

(It comes from the verb “hanta-”, thank, with pronouns to make it “I thank you”.)

Find even more useful, authentic phrases at:

> Lesson 5     

Tuesday, May 17, 2011

Quenya Lesson 3 -- Possessive Pronouns, and Adjectives

< Lesson 2    

Lihan Taifun  (teaching)
Siwan Sandalwood 
Shawn Daysleeper  

Questions from Lesson 1:

What about the tengwa úre (heat) , which is not shown on the chart?
That refers to a circle-shaped mark, which I did not include because I am not sure what sound it represents in Quenya. (In Sindarin, it is often used for “w”.)

What is a “weak r”?
The "strong" r is rolled. (Remember in the movies, Gandalf and Aragorn always said "Mordor" with funny "R"s ?) The “weak” r is like a normal English “r” sound.

Where can you hear Quenya spoken?
Those two are the same sound track, I think from the recording made in August 1952.  That is Professor Tolkien himself speaking.

For the one character that can represent a v or w, when would you use each?
Some dialects of Quenya use V, and some use W (like, Polish and Russian).
First Age Quenya used the W sound; by Third Age in Middle Earth this had shifted to V sound. I suspect the older W is still in use in Aman in the Fourth Age, but there is no way to prove this.


Possessive Pronoun (“my”, “your”, “his”)

Possessive pronouns aren't actually separate words in Quenya. They are endings tacked onto the word.
The possessive pronoun goes directly after the noun, and before any other endings.

Quenya has more categories of pronouns than English does. These are some of them, not the complete list.
Quenya does not have separate pronouns for males and females (“him” vs. “her”). This applies to all pronouns.
Quenya does make the distinction between formal/polite “you” and informal/familiar “you”. (Think Spanish tu vs usted; French tu vs. vous; German du vs sie.) In English, “you” is formal, and “thou” is familiar. Presumably in Quenya, like in human languages, it would be patronizing and insulting to use the familiar in the wrong setting. Don't use "thou" when speaking to the king.

If the noun ends in a consonant, you need to add a vowel between the noun and the ending (in order to get something pronounceable). Probably that vowel is -i- for “my” and -e- for all the others, though Tolkien did not leave explicit instructions, and there are only a few examples.

   after        after
  vowel    consonant
     -nya        -inya     my
     -lya         -elya      your (one person, formal/polite)
     -tya         -etya     your (one person, informal/familiar)
     -lda         -elda     your (a group)
     -rya         -erya     his/her/its (This is the “correct” form.)
     -lta          -elta      their

     parma (book) → parmalya (your book, sir)
     Anar (Sun) →     Anarinya (my Sun)
     aran (king) →     aranelda (your – a group's – king)

Combining the possessive pronoun with a plural (“my books”) is trickier. Remember the part about 'the possessive is added before any other ending'? That includes plural!

Add the possessive ending. (If an extra vowel is needed, it will always be -i-.) Then make the whole word plural by adding -r.

   after        after
  vowel    consonant
     -nyar        -inyar    my
     -lyar         -ilyar      your (one person, formal/polite)
     -tyar         -ityar     your (one person, informal/familiar)
     -ldar         -ildar     your (a group)
     -ryar         -iryar     his/her/its (This is the “correct” form.)
     -ltar          -iltar      their

     hildo (heir) → hildinyar (my heirs)  (Tolkien wrote it hildinyar, rather than hildonyar)

There are situations where you might have even more endings added to a word. Tolkien modeled Quenya after Finnish, where you can easily have half a sentence expressed in one word.


Tolkien kept making changes to his languages throughout his entire life. How do we decide which version to use? Fans don't always agree. Often people use the latest dated version, unless something was published in Lord of the Rings or Silmarillion, in which case the published version usually sticks.


Here are some fun “short forms” of possessive pronouns.

     -ya       his/her/its (colloquial)

There are also examples of -ya meaning “my”, in informal, affectionate forms of address.
     ammë, emmë (mother)  emya (mommy)
     atar (father) →                atya (daddy)
     hína (child) →                 hinya (my child)
     yondo (son) →                yonya (my son)
     aran (king)→                  aranya (my king)

And, as long as we are being friendly:
     tye (thou) →                    tyenya (my kinsman/kinswoman)
     meldo (friend, male) → meldonya (my friend)
     meldë (friend, female)   meldenya (my friend)

These forms are used only when speaking to the person. If you were telling someone else about “my father” or "my son", you would use the complete form: atarinya, yondonya



There are some common ending that signal that a word is an adjective, and perhaps give a hint about how it relates to other words. You don't usually have to make adjectives yourself; you look them up in the dictionary.

Adjectives usually end in -a, or sometimes -ë.
     -ya             a common adjective ending, though not all words ending in -ya are adjectives
     -ima          sometimes means “able to ~” or “apt to ~”
     -inqua       -full
     -itë            often means “having ~”, “having the quality of ~”
     -lóra         -less

     er (one)               erya (single, sole)
     formen (north) formenya (northern)
     fir- (die)             firima (mortal)
     cal- (shine)        calima (bright)
     alcar (glory)      alcarinqua (glorious)
     ma (hand)         maitë (-handed):  
                                      Angamaitë Ironhanded
                                      formaitë      right-handed
     na- (is)               naitë (true)
     óma (voice)       ómalóra (voiceless)

There are examples of adjectives placed before the noun, and of adjectives placed after the noun. “Before the noun” might be more common, but you can do whichever you prefer.

Correction, May 31:
Put the adjective before the noun.  If the adjective comes after the noun, it would be (or would look like) a sentence with an implied "is".
     calima Anar      the bright Sun
     Anar calima     The Sun is bright.


Now that we have done simple nouns and adjectives, you can make names. Next week, we will start simple verbs, and then you can do sentences.

After that, we will come back an pick up some of the trickier things that we skipped over: cases, the other plurals, and the rest of the pronouns.

> Lesson 4    

Saturday, May 14, 2011

The Number of Balrogs (Reading Material)

Tolkien's notes, published in History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Jewels
from Grey Annals, written sometime in the 1950s
“472: This is the Year of Lamentation ....”
“... But even as the vanguard of Maidros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth lossed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs a thousand, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons ...”

However, on the typescript of the corresponding passage in the Annals of Aman (written at roughly the same time), JRRT made the note: 

  “There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 [balrogs] ever existed.”

Dwarves (Reading Material)

Tolkien's notes, published in History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Jewels
from a note titled Concerning the Dwarves, written partly in 1951 and partly in 1958

“The Naugrim are not of Elf-kind, nor of Man-kind, nor yet of Melkor's breeding; and the Noldor of Middle-earth knew not whence they came, holding that they were alien to the Children, albeit in many ways like unto them. But in Valinor the wise have learned that the Dwarves were made in secret by Aulë, while the earth was yet dark .... Wherefore, though the Dwarves are like the Orcs in this: that they came of the wilfulness of one of the Valar, they are not evil; for they were not made out of malice in mockery of the Children, but came of the desire of Aulë's heart to make things of his own after the pattern of the designs of Ilúvatar....”

“In the darkness of Arda already the Naugrim wrought great works, for they had, even from the first days of their Fathers, marvellous skill with metals and with stone, though their works had little beauty until they had met the Noldor and learned somewhat of their arts.... But in that ancient time the Dwarves still wrought iron and copper rather than silver and gold; and the making of weapons and gear of war was their chief smith-craft. They it was that first devised mail of linked rings, and in the making of byrnies and of hauberks none among Elves or Men have proved their equals. Thus they aided the Eldar in their war with the Orcs of Morgoth; though the Noldor believed that some of their folk would not have been loath to smithy also for Morgoth, had he been in need of their work or open to their trade. For buying and selling and exchange were their delight, and the winning of wealth thereby; and this they gathered rather to hoard then to use, save in further trading.

“The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf – unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. It is said, also, that their womenkind are few, and save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore the race multiplied slowly, and now is dwindling.

“The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, and their languages have thus no kinship with those of the Quendi. The Dwarves do not gladly teach their tongue to those of alien race; and in use they have made it harsh and intricate, so that of those few whom they have received in full friendship fewer still have learned it well. But they themselves learn swiftly other tongues, and in converse they use as they may the speech of Elves and Men with whom they deal. Yet in secret they use their own speech only, and that (it is said) is slow to change....”


Associated with this text are a series of what Christopher Tolkien describes as “tentative and roughly-written passages”:

• “But it is said that to each Dwarf Ilúvatar added a mate of female kind, yet because he would not amend the work of Aulë, and Aulë had yet made only things of male form, therefore the women of the Dwarves resemble their men more than all other [?speaking] races.”

“He wrought in secret in a hall under the mountains of Middle-earth. There he made first one Dwarf, the eldest of all, and after he made six others, the fathers of their race; and then he began to make others again, like to them but of female kind to be their mates. But he wearied, and when he [had] made six more he rested, and he returned to the seven fathers and he looked at them, and they looked at him, and whatever motion was in his thought that motion they performed. And Aulë was not pleased, but he began to teach them the language that he had designed for them, hoping thus to instruct them.

“But Ilúvatar knew all that was done, and that very hour that the Eldest Dwarf first spoke iwht tongue, Ilúvatar spoke to Aulë; and Aulë”

• “Aulë made one, and then six, and he began to make mates for them of female form, and he made six, and then he wearied. Thus he buried six pairs, but one (Durin) the eldest he laid alone.”

• “And Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each [of] them he laid a mate as the Voice bade him, and then he returned to Valinor.”

• “Then Aulë took the Seven Dwarves and laid them to rest under stone in far-sundered places, and beside each he laid his mate, save only beside the Eldest, and he lay alone. And Aulë returned to Valinor and waited long as best he might. But it is not known when Durin or his brethren first awoke, though some think that it was at the time of the departure of the Eldar over sea.”


from a letter to Miss Rhona Beare, 14 October, 1958

“Aulë, for instance, one of the Great, in a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, the he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen [Footnote: One, the eldest, alone, and six more with six mates], God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity: for Aulë had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Ilúvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.

“The One rebuked Aulë, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life, his own derived from the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold' said the One: 'these creatures of thine have only thy will, and thy movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'

“Then Aulë in grief and repentance humbled himself and asked for pardon. And he said: 'I will destroy these images of my presumption, and wait upon thy will.' And he took a great hammer, raising it to smite the eldest of his images; but it flinched and cowered from him. And as he withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Ilúvatar.

“'Do you wonder at this?' he said. 'Behold! thy creatures now live, free from thy will! For I have seen thy humility, and taken pity on your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into my design.'

“This is the Elvish legend of the making of the Dwarves; but the Elves report that Ilúvatar said thus also: 'Nonetheless I will not suffer my design to be forestalled: thy children shall not awaken before mine own.' And he commanded Aulë to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Dúrin the eldest who had none. There they should sleep long, until Ilúvatar bade them awake. Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between Dwarves and the children of Ilúvatar. And of the fate that Ilúvatar has set upon the children of Aulë beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it.”

Wednesday, May 11, 2011

Influences on Tolkien's Elves

Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Hojo Warf                               
AelKennyr Rhiano                 
Lihan Taifun                           
Siwan Sandalwood                
Shawn Daysleeper                 
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul (lukka.rookswood)
Fifi Wickentower (briefly)

WHY were the Elves designed to “fade” (that is, to decline in power and influence)? It is a common theme in folklore, but why did Tolkien use it?

What about the Elves of Valinor? Were they declining in power too? or was it only the Elves of Middle Earth? We suspect the Elves of Valinor were not in decline.

Tolkien's concepts of Elves were influenced by the Tuatha Dé Danann of Ireland, the Norse Ljósálfar, the German elves, and other traditions. At the time he was writing, the popular British image was of Victorian tiny fairies in the garden.

Lukka rules the elf city in Ambrea – non-Tolkien Elves – and is here to learn more about his neighbors the Tolkien Elves.

Ael claims there are elves (and merfolk) in Asian folklore, but did not yet provide the references. {hint hint}

Some cultures see “elves” as helpful beings, some see them as agents of disease and mishap, and some use them as an image of primordial “unfalled” humanity.

 {Siwan's comments removed at her request 6/18/2011}
Lihan Taifun:                            last week, if I remember, we were just starting to think about whether the mass migrations of the Elves were part of the Great Song

Lihan Taifun:                            (that seems to be an unsucessful conversation starter ...)
Hojo Warf:                                Hehe
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: haha I'm just waiting expectantly. Most of my knowlege of elves is folklore/pre-tolkien, so I'm a little curious
Hojo Warf:                                I'd say they must have been because the results of their movement affected so much.
Belenos the Bad:                      I'm mainly here to listen today, and pick up the threads of the topic.. so pardon if I am quiet
Lihan Taifun:                            Lukka, are you familiar with the Silmarillion at all? (We can back up a little here)
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: It sounds so familiar, but I don't think I found enough to include in my lectures, so it may have been a while since I've seen the word.
Lihan Taifun:                            The Silmarillion is a book, compiled by Christopher Tolkien from his father's unpublished writings, of stories that happened long before the Lord of the Rings era, the backstory of Middle Earth
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Ah ha, I just found it in my notes. "In The Silmarillion, Tolkien explains how the elves were called to the Undying Lands of the west after the defeat of Melkor/Morgoth.." thats all I really have on the text itself though
Lihan Taifun:                            ok :) that is very brief
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: And the mythos about Beren and Lúthien
Lihan Taifun:                            Soon after the first Elves awoke, the Valar -- the guardian spirits -- decided to move the elves to the Undying Lands where they would be safer. Not all of the elves actually wanted to move, and some groups made the trip quicker than others, and that created the first separation into different groups of elves. Then, much later, one of the groups -- the Noldor -- had an argument with the Valar, and stomped back to Middle Earth in a huff, which set in motion most of the plot
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic) grins.. good way of expressing it
Lihan Taifun:                            and then, by the Third Age -- Lord of the Rings era -- most of those elves were returning to the Undying Lands. So, a lot of moving back and forth
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  But why? why the fading? What was the logical purpose?
Lihan Taifun:                            besides keeping the plot moving? :P
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  Aside from following in the footsteps of many folklore traditions about the fading of the elves, I don't see it as a very effective plot device.
Hojo Warf:                                ultimately the plan was to leave the world to men.
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun:                            when you say "fading", you are talking about the Elves as a race becoming less of a presence in Middle Earth?
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  yes
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  When i was in college and we discussed Tolkien, our professor referred to it as the "fading of the elves?"
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Well, in one of my sources it does talk about how Tolkien's movements of the elves parellel the movements of the Túatha Dé Danann of irish folklore
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  yes! what he said
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: It was "Myth & Middle-Earth" by Leslie Ellen Jones
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Hojo Warf:                                The elves were gradually fading from the beginning. Their greatest works at first rivaled the works of the valar when they were in Valinor. By the time of Lord of the Rings they weren't capable of creating anything like the silmarils.
Belenos the Bad:                      But why would they have been created just to fade away?
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  right. and there must be a distinction between the elves of middle earth and the Elves of the west.
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Well according to that book, Tolkien's elf mythos, particularly the sort of... creation story, was reflective of his own life
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Apparently... (Let me type it)
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  I don't think the elves were meant to fade.... maybe they were meant to fade from the eyes of the Followers...humans... but to totally abandon middle earth makes very little sense to me.
Shawn Daysleeper:                  it is not entirely clear as to what the elves in valinor have been up to for the past ages, they may have accomplished much but it is never discussed or known by the folks in Middle earth, so it may be a knowledge void
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  I agree, Shawn
Belenos the Bad:                      Sort of like fore-runners, to set the scene, so to speak? Perhaps Tolkien had planned to re-involve them again at some later date, but never got around to it?
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  I could believe that.
Shawn Daysleeper:                  a story centreing on valinor during the 4th age may reveal lots of sucessful stuff, so their power may not be fading
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  and the elves may decide to return to middle earth and be a presence, whether or not the humans are aware.
Siwan Sandalwood:                •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Shawn Daysleeper:                  the ones that never left, such as the teleri
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  Very much alive, Siwan.
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Shawn Daysleeper:                  and the vanyar
Belenos the Bad:                      typical teleri.. never can get them to go home after a party....:P
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  ppppfffttt...we ARE the party!!!
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic) grins
Shawn Daysleeper:                  hehe we have amazing parties

Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: "the core story of his entire Silmarillion mythology was the love between a mortal man and an Elvish woman, Beren and Lúthien, who he openly acknowledged symbolized the love affair between himself and his wife Edith."
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Well doesn't every man in love believe his lover to be far more beautiful, wonderful, and on a whole other level from himself? :)
Lihan Taifun:                            Lukka, that applies to the story of Beren and Luthien, which is ONE major story in the Silmarillion
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Youll have to forgive my typos, I wasnt expecting to get involved in a discssion tonight, so I'm just a taaaaaad tipsy hehe
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  :)
Shawn Daysleeper:                  hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  A person who discusses Tolkien while tipsy. You found the right crowd.
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: hahah
Lihan Taifun grins
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  lol
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Well I thought I should learn a little more about tolkiens version of the elves... I rule the elf city in ambrea, and while we have our own mythos, I thought it important to learn about other influences so that I can better relate to the tolkien-inspired elves
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad:                      me, I've been dragged here kicking and screaming by, seriously, I find it fascinating, always have.. *Smiles*
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: I started to learn a bit about them in my research into folklore, because from what I understand they're heavily based upon the Túatha Dé Danann
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  hey! I represent that remark!
Shawn Daysleeper:                  you should have some teleri tequila
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic) grins
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  Actually on quite a few mythologies, Lukka
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Yes, also based upon the norse mythologies as well
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Seems primarily the Norse and British
Lihan Taifun:                            Actually, Lukka, we mentioned last week that since in the Tolkien mythos there were elves that stayed behind in Middle Earth the whole time, there would probably be huge cultural differences between various groups
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  Remember, that folklore worldwide share great commonalities.
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Ineed they do Ael, but that doesn't mean that Tolkien drew from all of them hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  Actually , he did a pretty good job of doing exactly that.
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun:                            Tolkien only tells the story of a couple of the groups, and vaguely mentions that there are more elves that don't come into the stories at all
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: I would love to see if there is any Asian elf lore
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  There is actually.
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Oh? Please elaborate Ael? about his other sources? I would love to know
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: And about the asian elves
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  Let me dig a moment...hold on.... roots around...

{We admire the low-prim architecture in Alqualondë.}

AelKennyr Rhiano:         in addition to the Norse influences with Tolkien's elves, do not forget Germanic influences...
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes more and more...thank you, very much.
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Haha, but Germanic elves were nasty buggers!
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Hojo Warf:                                Der Erlkoenig?
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Hojo Warf:                                I think so. Schubert made it into a song.
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  He was well acquainted with the elves of Northern Europe and the Ljósálfar
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: "The Germanic elves' primary role in popular belief were as agents of disease, especially the more inexplicable and sudden illnesses.

Even today, the term "stroke" for an arterial tear or blood clot in the brain comes from the notion that it is caused by the stroke from an elf's invisible arrow; a number of diseases of livestock, likewise, were explained as being the result of "elf-shot" well into the modern era.

In fact, Stone Age flint arrowheads that work their way to the earth's surface, often as a result of plowing, were what was usually identified as the Elves' maleficent projectile. These arrowheads were obviously meant to be shot at someone or something, but they were not made by any people known to those who plowed them up.

Elves were also sometimes suspected as the culprits when horses were found sweating and panting in the morning after being stabled all night; they were said to be elf-ridden, fairy-ridden, or hag-ridden, and thus elves were associated with witches and the 'mara' "

AelKennyr Rhiano:                  And we are not just talking about elven mythology for his inspiration.
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: The Liosalfar were Norse light elves, of course
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  Remember the Welsh Mabinogion and Arthurian romances. Now it is true that the Noldor are based on the Tuatha Dé Danann in the Lebor Gabála Érenn, and their migratory nature comes from early Irish/Celtic history
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: I actually need to get going, will someone be able to send me a log of the discussion later?
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  But there is a whole other element, too...the elves also represent "man" before the fall.
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  yes
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: Ooh, thats interesting
Siwan Sandalwood:                 •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Hojo Warf:                                Yes thats an interesting way to think of it.
Lihan Taifun:                            ok, I'll make sure you get a copy of the log. we also have archives:
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  In the beginning...when Tolkien was working on his elves...the popular vision of elves was the traditional Victorian view..dancing fairies.
Hojo Warf:                                tiny critters who lived in hollow trees and made cookies~!
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  yes, Hojo...well, dunno about the cookies part
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: A popular Irish belief that lasted well into the nineteenth century held that when Lucifer rebelled against God, there were many angels who sided with him and fell into Hell along with him, but there were others who were committed to neither God nor Lucifer and as a result were shut out of heaven but not accepted in Hell.
AelKennyr Rhiano:                  And you see that echoed in the story of Melkor
Siwan Sandalwood:                  •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lukka Rookswood Naqu'ul: These exiled - amoral - angels were said to be the Good People of Ireland. They could not be regarded as completely holy, because they had not sided with God, but neither were they completely evil, as actual demons and devils might be.
Lihan Taifun:                            fence-sitter angels

{Several people have to leave. Farewells.}

AelKennyr Rhiano:                  We could stop here for tonight, so no one will miss anything. or continues, whichever everyone prefers
Shawn Daysleeper:                  ok we could stop
Lihan Taifun:                            get done at a reasonable hour, for once :)
Belenos the Bad:                      be careful, that will set a precedent.. :P