Archive


This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

The discussion group continues to meet
in Second Life in Alqualonde the Swanhaven. Contact AelKennyr Rhiano in Second Life.

Tuesday, November 23, 2010

Usage of the Term "Ainur"

 November 23, 2010
An IM from Edward Klossovsky, who is a member of Tolkien Discussion Group but has not attended because of time zone conflicts, to Lihan.

He describes a quote from JRRT in 1957 which states that the term “Ainur” is used only in the plural, and only of the spirits before Creation, or those who did not enter Eä. Within Eä, only the terms “Valar” and “Maiar” are used. (quoted in Parma eldalamberon 17)
This contradicts the Silmarillion, and seems to be a difference between Professor Tolkien's later opinions and what Christopher used in Silmarillion. Edward does not consider Silmarillion in any way authoritative.




-- Instant message logging enabled --
Edward Klossovsky: (Saved Tue Nov 23 11:42:37 2010) Hello. I just received a Note from the Tolkien group. If I'm not mistaken you wrote it. I think there is a big mistake in the text "Wednesday, December 1 we will continue our discussion of the Firstborn Elves, taking up their relationship with the Ainur". The Ainur is only used for the immortal spirits as *before* Creation. Those of the Ainur who entered Creation (or Ea) are called Maiar and Valar, not Ainur.
Edward Klossovsky: (Saved Tue Nov 23 11:43:23 2010) Cheer. ;) I hope I will be able to attend (I'm in France).
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Hello! Good to hear from you! I wonder whether this is a difference between the French and the English translation.
Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.

 Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In the English translation of the Silmarillion, "Ainur" is used to describe the immortal spirits both before and after entering Creation. The Maiar and the Valar are all "Ainur".
Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "If ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good." -- from "Of the Beginning of Days"
Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "So died ... Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur." -- from "Of the Ruin of Doriath"
Edward Klossovsky: Hello :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hello!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I do hope you can attend some of our meetings
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . anyone interested enough to write to me must be scholar ;)
Edward Klossovsky: I would be delighted if it occurs in my leisure time.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, time zones are always a problem
Edward Klossovsky: Regarding Ainur. I would like to cite a text published in Parma eldalamberon 17.
Edward Klossovsky: p. 149
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . please do!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't actually have a copy of Parma eldalamberon
Edward Klossovsky: Ainur always appears in plural since after the Creation all those known were Mayar.
Edward Klossovsky: Mayar includes Valar and their lesser kin, but not those who either did not take part in the Great Theme, or else did not enter Eä.
Edward Klossovsky: So Ainur is used only of the spirits before Creation, or of those unnamed who are not concerned with it.
Edward Klossovsky: (end ;))
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . fascinating!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . what is the date for that?
Edward Klossovsky: hard to say the text is called QN in Parma 17
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hmmm, ok
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that will require some research
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . if you know what week you can attend, we could have you explain this to the group!
Edward Klossovsky: just found, sorry took a few minutes to seek in parma 17
Edward Klossovsky: QN is a text written in 1957
Edward Klossovsky: with pleasure :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that makes it a very late reference
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it must be one of those cases where Christopher Tolkien, editing the Silmarillion, did not follow his father's most recent ideas
Edward Klossovsky: For me the Silmarillion of 1977 is not part of the writings of JRR Tolkien. C. Tolkien changed in it too many things.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that is a difficulty with the Silmarillion
Edward Klossovsky: Parma Eldalamberon 17 is mostly a linguistic text but it has some interesting things about the Valar and the Maiar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the linguistic text sometimes give interesting insights into what he was thinking on various topics
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we would love to hear from you, if the times work out
Edward Klossovsky: so when is your next meeting (remind me, please).
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . December 1
Edward Klossovsky: I'm afraid I won't be able to attend, sorry.
Edward Klossovsky: on the 1st...
Edward Klossovsky: but if some one could have a copy of Parma eldalamberon 17.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . where did you get it?
Edward Klossovsky: from their site
Edward Klossovsky: parma eldalamberon
Edward Klossovsky: the n 17 is still in print
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . excellent
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I will have to look it up
Edward Klossovsky: :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and any week that you can attend, we can make this the topic of the week
Edward Klossovsky: http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma17.html
Edward Klossovsky: direct link
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and also the question of how to decide what to believe, when different writings say different things
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . thank you!
Edward Klossovsky: would be nice :)
Edward Klossovsky: yes, it is difficult to know what to believe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . if you don't mind, I would like to put this conversation on the forum archive of our discussion group, so other people can read it
Edward Klossovsky: Yes, please do. :) If it can help other to discus about it.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and I will mention it on Dec 1
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . 7 pm SLT would be very early morning for you, right?
Edward Klossovsky: in Paris it is 23h26 right now
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so I think that makes the Discussion Group start at 0500 for you
Edward Klossovsky: yes, early :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . early!
Edward Klossovsky: how many people usually attend the meetings ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . 3 to 8
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . some of the same people come most weeks, and some people only come occasionally
Edward Klossovsky: I see.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . many of the people are also in Fellowship of the Fourth Age roleplay
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but not all of them
Edward Klossovsky: they seek to have a better roleplaying or have a better understanding of Tolkien's writtings ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . both
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we know that sometimes we have to do things in the roleplay that isn't totally correct from Tolkien
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . s writings, but we do want to understand what would be correct
Edward Klossovsky: Tolkien wrote so many things, it is not easy to decide..
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, that is a problem we often face
Edward Klossovsky: I'm also interested in the Elvish languages, are you or other people in the group ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I certainly am
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and Kellinar is
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . maybe some other people
Edward Klossovsky: ah, good :)

Wednesday, November 17, 2010

The Awakening of the Elves

Tolkien Discussion Group
 November 17, 2010
 Topic: The Awakening of the Elves
Present:
Tuatha Shippe
Harumi Oanomochi
Kellinar Trevellion
AelKennyr Rhiano
Jillian Newey
Lihan Taifun
Stormbird Shepherd
Fifi Wickentower


Summary:
A late story, “Cuivienyarna”, by Tolkien describes a “legend of the Elves”, where three male and three female elves awakened first, and collected the other newly awakened elves into their tribes. In this version of the story, Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë are not the kings/leaders of their tribes, but only the ambassadors who visited the Blessed Lands.
We find in very stylized that the three pairs of first elves automatically knew to become husbands and wives.
All the Firstborn awoke in adult bodies, so technically did not have a “childhood”. But, since they had no previous experiences, their new life was, in some sense, a “childhood”, and everything was new for them.
There is some resemblance to Athena, who sprang from her father Zeus' head as a full grown adult.
Tolkien's themes are often influenced by his studies of world mythologies. On the other hand, he would have been concerned to keep things compatible with his Catholic sensibilities, and his respectable reputation as a professor at Oxford. Two World Wars would color his outlook as well. Then son Christopher added another layer of editing.
No matter which version of the story Tolkien himself preferred, the Silmarillion version is now so well know that it would take considerable effort to replace it in people's minds. (The Ingwë and Olwë of Fellowship of the Fourth Age prefer the Silmarillion version anyway.)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . shall we get started? Tonight's topic is "the Awakening of the Elves". What did happen at the mysterious "Waters of Awakening"? I didn't find much on it. Did anyone else? I know we have two Firstborn here
Kellinar Trevellion: . . There was the lovely night sky with twinkling stars.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Tolkien's "Cuivienyarna"
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .where are the elves?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Ael plays Olwe, and Kell Ingwe, two of the FIrstborn Elves,so they have a personal interest in this :)
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .ah
AelKennyr Rhiano is whacking his computer and looking for his notes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Silmarillion says remarkably little
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . According to a legend of the Elves, the first Elves were awakened by Eru Ilúvatar near the bay of Cuiviénen. The first Elf to awake was called Imin ("First"). Next to him lay Iminyë, who would become his wife. Near where Imin woke, awoke Tata ("Second") and Tatië, and Enel ("Third") and Enelyë.
Imin, Tata, and Enel and their wives joined up, and walked through the forests. They first came across six pairs of Elves, and Imin, as eldest, claimed them as his people, and woke them. After a short time Imin and his people, together with Tata and Enel, continued their journey. Next, they came across nine pairs of Elves, and Tata as second eldest, claimed them as his people. After a short time the now thirty-six Elves continued their journey. Then they found twelve pairs of Elves, and Enel, as third eldest, claimed them as his people.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, unlike Some Creators, Eru remembers to make them in pairs ...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . For many days the now sixty Elves dwelt by the rivers, and they began to invent poetry and music.
Finally they set out again, but Imin thought to himself that since each time they had found more Elves and his folk was least in size, he would now choose last.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . They came across eighteen pairs of Elves, who were watching the stars, and Tata and Enel waited for Imin to claim them for his people, but Imin told them he would wait, so Tata added them to his folk. They were tall and had dark hair, and they were the fathers of most of the Ñoldor of later times.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . So, Ingwe and Olwe are first born from these pairs?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that has always been my question, because from reading the Silmarillion, I thought we woke up at the Waters of Awakening.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Yes....seems a bit more confusing now.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or *were* you among the elves who woke up? Maybe these were alternate names for you
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Oh....hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . idk
Kellinar Trevellion: . . me neither
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . this account confuses me greatly
The tale of Imin, Tata and Enel, known as Cuivienyarna, was a very late writing by Tolkien, written as part of Quendi and Eldar. They replaced Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë as the eldest Elves, who now merely became the first ambassadors and the Kings of the Elves in exile.
That begs another question...how is Elwe my older brother if we both were awakened at the same time?
Harumi Oanomochi: . My source said that the "Cuivienyarna" was written much later by Tolkien and that the three firstborn, Imin, Tata, and Enel basicaly replaced Ingwë, Finwë and Olwe, and Elwë as the firstborn
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, a slightly different version of the story
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, that is also what I found. But my question is why the change? and to me, it muddles the waters as to Olwe's background a little.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . this story has a very mythological feel, where the Silmarillion story sounds more "natural"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . From reading the Silmarillion, it would sound like Ingwe, Olwe, Elwe...they had no childhood but awoke full grown.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Tolkien spent a lot of time refining the world he had created...some things that he wasn't happy with, he changed. I think he was a very meticulous writer, and not above changing and contradicting older "canon"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . very true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, and that is the nature of creative writing.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .canon is a good word
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it seems like whoever awoke at the waters would have had no childhood
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the writing flows
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .which do you prefer, Ael?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Really, I want to see what others think, tonight.
Harumi Oanomochi thinks she sees a smile on Ael's face
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . all I found was the account in Book of Lost Tales, which is a much earlier version of the story, and very similar to the SIlmarillion, except for the names of the three eldest elves. Well, the awakening scene is very similar
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Either we had different names in the beginning or there is a considerable gap. Those others are not mentioned later nor the more recognizable names earlier.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well...having a childhood is magical stuff...so i dont like their not having one
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but, how can you say they are really "adult" until they have had some experience?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .maybe that part could be changed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the same way Athena sprung full grown from the head of Zeus? and euuuw....gross
Harumi Oanomochi: . good point, Lihan...even one who awakens adult, is still on a great learningcurve, not unlike a childhood of sorts.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . sounds very messy
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . yuck
Harumi Oanomochi: . Yes, I was thinking of that too, Ael.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but surely the elves had to experience everything for a first time
Harumi Oanomochi: . He had a massive headache so the story goes. :-)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . rofl yes
Jillian Newey giggles
Kellinar Trevellion: . . O.o
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .born of HIS head..thats disgusting
Kellinar Trevellion: . . For real?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .an abomination
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and not like Zeus ever had trouble having children the ordinary way O.O
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . eeeppp
Harumi Oanomochi: . That's the myth...some think it happened that way because the Greeks couldn't bear the thought of such a powerful Goddess as Athena coming from the body of a mere Goddess--but I'm wandering off topic
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . heh heh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well using his head had to be a first for Zeus
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . rofl

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So, if they were awakened in adult form...that would explain the way they reacted when they met Orome for the first time, or how they trusted so in Melkor. It would explain their fearfulness
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . they were children still
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .ummm...who gave birth to them?....a big cow?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . emotionally, yes, Jilly
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .ok..so they were gods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Who were gods?
Harumi Oanomochi: . The firstborn were formed by the hand of Elu...but they weren't gods.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .their parents had to be or it would have been a bad birthing experience..thats all im saying

AelKennyr Rhiano: . .
Originally, in the 1910s and 1920s, Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë (their final names) were the eldest of the Elves. By 1959 or 1960, Tolkien wrote a detailed account of the awakening of the Elves, called Cuivienyarna, part of Quendi and Eldar. Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë now became the first ambassadors and the Kings of the Elves. This text only saw print in The War of the Jewels, part of the analytical The History of Middle-earth series, in 1994, but a similar version was included in The Silmarillion in 1977.
This kind of gives us a historical perspective of the formation of the story.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, the Silmarillion version was an earlier draft?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that is the way it sounds
Harumi Oanomochi: . Right...CHristopher Tolkien published 12 volumes of the History of Middle Earth from his father's writings
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . 12? wow
Harumi Oanomochi: . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, as long as geeks keep buying them ... :)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . ahem
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . (actually I don't have them, and haven't read them, but that is a budget issue, not a lack of interest)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . mhm
Harumi Oanomochi: . The volume in question for purposes of this discussion is called The War of the Jewels.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . on the other hand, since Silmarillion was published first, it now has more credibility, whether that was JRRT's intention or not
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, good point.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .Lihan..i agree
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .not that his son couldn't be trusted or anything
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not that, but it is hard, mentally, to replace the Silmarillion images with any other version
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So the idea is that just like Tolkien's work has forever defined Hobbit, in popular imagination, the Silmarillion defines the awakening of the elves in Tolkien's world?
Harumi Oanomochi: . Well, in a rather cynical viewpoint, the son saw a way to continue to make money by publishingall those books and more, one of the last being the Children of Hurin. So, was it done to elucidate his father's wishes? Perhaps. But maybe not.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .yes...let it be that way, Ael
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hey,it was Christopher who had Silmarillion published, too
Harumi Oanomochi: . True...but it was more put together before his father's death. At least that's my understanding.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but what I was saying was that it requires some work to use a different version
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree. and to fight againt popular interpretation
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, the Silmarillion is going to define the "popular" interpretation
Harumi Oanomochi: . And I think Ael and Kell are correct to use the Silmarillion version of the firstborn. Else they would be constantly explaining their existence.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .seems we're leaning towards the original
Kellinar Trevellion: . . So that means we are still as old as dirt.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . at least it depends on how much effort you want to put into having a non-Silmarillion version
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The thing about writers who die and leave an unpublished volume of work is that they can no longer have a say in what the public sees.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Ael, that is also a keen point.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We don't know if, when all is said and done, that Tolkien preferred the later versions or his original.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Kell....yep...you and dirt...practically twins
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahahah
Kellinar Trevellion: . . sheesh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . you might also have been one of those 144 unnamed elves who got swept up into the 3 tribes
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .Kell...just this part...I'm sure the debate will continue about others particulars
Kellinar Trevellion: . . That is true Lihan
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . although is would be convenient of Olwe and Ingwe agreed on their story :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It's a little thorny, that newer version...how did those firstborn elves know to marry?
Jillian Newey giggles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes ... you wouldn't expect hormones to kick in that soon
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Me Ingwe....You ????
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol It is a rather "too neat" story.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well we know how asexual tolkien was....so its not surprising
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is also a question that is rather hard to pose about Tolkien without someone getting upset...
Harumi Oanomochi <--- all ears (pointy)
Tuatha Shippe <leans in to listen> yesssss?
Jillian Newey tilts her head
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is this viewpoint of his work havng a strong Catholic overtone....
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well, its true, old school catholic
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but if you read the early stuff, at least for me...I see the influence of world mythologies on the literature.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . he was a medieval scholar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and in the later writings...there I see an argument for a Catholic undertone.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . AGREES
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yes, Fifi.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he seemed to do a lot of experimenting with putting themes from various literatures into his writing
Harumi Oanomochi: . and the 1st World War in which he fought also had some definite lasting impressions that are reflected in his work.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .maybe skipped 'childhood' too because its...a messy business. Most greek gods had no childhoods either
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . who wants to potty train 144 new elves?
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, LOL!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . BTW, I don't think they had adult size Diapers or "pull-ups"AelKennyr Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hahaha
Harumi Oanomochi: . The thought of Olwe in Pull-ups boggles this elve's mind
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha boggles his, too
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . eeepppp
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I hear they leak
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . ewww
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . *facepalms*
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no no..they let him run naked
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . O.o
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . nice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . erm...no
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .its the easiest way
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . probably, had clothes been invented yet?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .depends on the weather, id imagine
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . really cold hum

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . How much of that catholic undertone was perhaps an effort to make his blending and using of world mythologies "palatable?"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . making them palatable to his own sensibilities
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Harumi is right...we must remember he wrote during the time of a World War.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and WWI was dubbed as "mankind's loss of innocence." by some scholars.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . two World Wars
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yes, to be very precise, TWO. Quite right to correct me.
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . one writes of what they know even fiction
Harumi Oanomochi: . Ael, I think you have a point...there is a thin veil betwixt Catholic doctrine, Mythos, and heresies
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . orthodoxy was very much the watchword of his society
Harumi Oanomochi: . nods...especially being a don...he had a reputation to protect
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .a Don? you jest
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no?
Harumi Oanomochi: . what I meant by "don" is an Oxford University professor...sorry...it's the UK term.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .oh...thank you Harumi
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . she was thinking godfather
Harumi Oanomochi: . :-) hehehe...thinking of Tolkien wielding a tommy-gun and chomping a ceegar.
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hahaha
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and you complain about *my* images!
 
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, um, we were at JRRT had his respectable university reputation to protect
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . thus the need for orthodoxy
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . as well as not wandering too far from his Catholic sensibilities
Harumi Oanomochi nods
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no sinful fleshy stuff
Jillian Newey giggles
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .so....tell us about the elves...<wants to hear more>
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . you were heading toward saying that the later versions were more "cleaned up"?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think Christopher did that ...I think Tolkien himself felt the need to follow conventional and accepted philosophies and outlooks.
Harumi Oanomochi: . yes, well...a posthumous editing will do that, especially when the editor is the son of the author.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and especially as the culture and climate of society changes
Harumi Oanomochi: . agreed
Fifi Wickentower: . . . nod nod
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes indeed

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So, we are not closer to really discerning what Tolkien really wanted as the "official' version of the awakening of the elves, are we?
Harumi Oanomochi: . So why do you think, if I may change the subject a bit, that Melkor was the first of the Valar to notice the Elves wandering about? Oops...premature query I guess.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no, that is a good one
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . heh heh, two good questions
Harumi Oanomochi: . In answer to Ael's question, I think we shall never know what Tolkien truly wanted because he may have changed his mind yet again if he had lived another 20 years. Christopher always maintains that he goes by comments by his father in correspondence as to which way to take something.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I agree that we may never really know
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree, Harumi
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . To mimic Lucifer's special attention to the advent of men upon the earth?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . he was full of pride
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Melkor was the one hanging around in Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . because they were malleable being innocent creatures?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . there are parallels
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . especially if they were childlike in life experience...they would be easy targets to subvert?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Valar were living in Aman, and most of them not paying much attention
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .but i do think it was because they were easy to prey upon
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the young elves would be easy targets
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, good point on where Melkor was as opposed to the rest of the Valar. I hadn't considered that...and yes...the parallels to Lucifer are there, going back to the Cathlic viewpoint
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . as well as very valuable targets
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so JRRT wrote his "3 Adams and 3 Eves" story, to go with his Lucifer story?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . perhaps
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . many believe that
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .sure does look like it. Melkor isnt exactly greek, doesnt fit
Harumi Oanomochi: . yes...the Elves were unique creatures in the scheme of things, so valuable targets indeed, as well as young in experience and perhaps malleable.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . unique,and arguably the best thing created so far
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Harumi Oanomochi: . Yay! (does the elven happy dance)
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hey Jillian Newey grins big
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . wooohooo
Harumi Oanomochi: . Sorry...missed my dose of humility today
Fifi Wickentower: . . . passes a cup of humiltea
Jillian Newey giggles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . you're character is an elf, Harumi?
Harumi Oanomochi: . through and through
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we shouldn't let Harumi and Jillian sit next to each other, then :)
{Tea is passed. The unicorn (Stormbird) separates the elf and the fae.}

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps this is a topic to continue next week?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . did we have any more about the Firstborn?
Harumi Oanomochi: . I guess we came to a consensus of sorts that the first version of the "Firstborn" in the Silmarillion is the one from which we will carry on our rp
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I hope so....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . unless Olwe and Ingwe really want the other version
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .yes, Ael....its complicated enough. And a god-king should have his own myth
Harumi Oanomochi: . If there were a Facebook for Elves, Ael and Kell coul just check the "it's complicated" box. *snickers*
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha
Jillian Newey nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . god-king?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .you do see him as a god, yes?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . who?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .yes...the birth says so -- Olwe
Kellinar Trevellion: . . I was thinking about brothers but that won't make sense if we were in pairs.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Gods, No! I mean to the god king, not the brothers.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well not exactly gods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the first humans, or the first elves, have to come from somewhere
Harumi Oanomochi: . not a god...but an immortal being with what some call magic
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .immortal....but not gods
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . demi-gods?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .hmmm...i dunno
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . all elves are immortal
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .demi-gods...yes good word
Harumi Oanomochi: . and as one of the first of our kind, looked upon with the greatest reverence.
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .hmmm.....never to die?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We can die
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . immortal beings with what some would call magic ... that still applies to all the elves (and the fey too, for different reasons)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We can be killed.
Harumi Oanomochi: . it can be an onerous task, but then Elves *can* die...by accident, poison, injury. But not old age.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but not easily
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . like demi-gods
Fifi Wickentower: . . . a demi god is usually referring to a being whose parents consist if one god and one human'
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hercules --yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . immortals does not always mean godlike.
Harumi Oanomochi: . mmm...yes, Fifi...demi-gods in the classical sense have one parent who is a god...and I don't think that is what Tolkien had in mind.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . vampires
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . eww
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree with Harumi
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .<in norse mythology elves sprang from trees, says our fine unicorn friend in my ear>
Harumi Oanomochi: . *smiles*
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .<or mind>
Fifi Wickentower: . . . have you a need to be god-like?
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . who?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I don't it would occur to the Eldars to perceive themselves as godlike. Do you, Kell?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .his whole kingdom needs for him to be almost as much
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Not really and we didn't have definitive parents.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't think the Eldar think of even the Valar as god-like
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I thnk they reverence the Valar...but not as gods
Harumi Oanomochi: . Yes, but it's as an elder brother...an ancient and wise elder brother who is a king.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . We just woke up, wondered at the beautiful world with innocence.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and thought...WOW.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no way..the Valar?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps we should continue this next week?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .but just meeting a Valar would make you feel you were in the presence of a wondrous being, likened to a god
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I'm sorry...I just don't have that interpretation of the valar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ok, next week, the elves reaction to meeting the valar?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . this doesn't sound like a short topic :)
Kellinar Trevellion: . . good
Harumi Oanomochi: . The Valar were the "offspring of...(Elu's) ...thoughts"...The Holy Ones...the first beings created who helped create the world, but I don't think of them as gods.

Wednesday, November 10, 2010

Timeline for Gandalf vs Balrog


Appendix B: Year 3018 Third Age
January 23 Gandalf pursues the Balrog to the peak of Zirak-zigil.
January 25: He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.
February 14: Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.
February 17: Gwaihir bears Gandalf to Lórien.

Wraiths, Orcs, and Monsters, part 3

Tolkien Discussion Group
November 10, 2010
Wraiths, Orcs, and Monsters, part 3

Present:
Dominique Darkwatch
Shawn Daysleeper:
Lihan Taifun
Kellinar Trevellion
AelKennyr Rhiano

Summary
Although Balrogs are Maiar (of a fire persuasion, which makes them akin to Arien) they seem to be remarkably dimwitted. Not in the intellectual category of, say, a dragon. We find no evidence of a Balrog ever speaking.
We know of no examples of any non-Ainu fighting a Balrog and surviving. Even Ungoliant ran away. Gandalf was killed by the Balrog of Moria (and returned by special act of Eru).
Shawn found convincing evidence of Balrog wings, and Balrogs flying. The cavern of Moria was too cramped for the Balrog to fly there.
Since it is generally accepted that Morgoth could not create new beings from scratch, only corrupt and modify creatures – what was the raw material for dragons?


 Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ok, balrogs :) Balrogs are impossible it intimidate. Lihan Taifun tries to get the conversation on topic. I think it was Kell who pointed out last week that balrogs are fire maiar
Dominique Darkwatch nods "A relative of Arien"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . minor spirits as ainur go, but still not someone you want to run into -- oooh, that does make them related to Arien! I never thought of that
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . They seem more beast without much intelligence. Are there any other fire maiar besides Arien and the Balrogs?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, there must be, but I don't remember any being mentioned
Dominique Darkwatch: . None mentioned by name
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Is it possible that the fire maiars were "infected" since Melkor made heavy use of lava or it's energy source?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . is it just that balrogs don't have any scenes that show off their intelligence? or are they really that dim? It is possible that most of them went over to Melkor. Or that the "good" fire maiar didn't have a role in the story
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . They remind me of the Minotaur.
Dominique Darkwatch: . I wondered if their intelligence was not somehow compromised by Melkor somehow
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . like the Minotaur how?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Humanoid and with enough intelligence to fight with weapon. There has to be good maiar...we get heat and light from fire sources.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . whereas dragons are known for their cunning. Maiar who aren't related to the story, we just don't hear about
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I see. Balrogs are like the underground sentries for Melkor?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . do they specialize in underground?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So far I only hear of one in the Mines of Moria....where else are they mentioned?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . back in Melkor's original fortress
Shawn Daysleeper: . . there was gothmog, lord of the balrogs in the silmarillion
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I remember a few balrogs, and other baddies who hid out in the basement after Melkor's defeat, and didn't get rounded up
Dominique Darkwatch: . In LOTR, the dwarves apparently dug them up...but in Samarillion in the second age they came out of Angband and really gave it to the elven forces
Shawn Daysleeper: . . they fought a big battle on the surface by Gondolin
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh, ok. What happened to Gothmog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so they aren't intrinsically limited to underground. Was Gothmog the one who got killed by -- somebody famous -- at Gondolin?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Ecthelion killed Gothmog after the fall of Gondolin, but Ecthelion died in the process
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I'm not surprised! I'm more surprised that one elf could kill a balrog at all
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Gothmog killed Fingon, Tuor, and mortally wounded Feanor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Feanor killed by a balrog -- somehow that fits
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Is he the one that made the Simarils?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, and provoked the Noldor into leaving the Undying Lands
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Did Gandalf die when he killed the balrog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, it is buried in the Appendices, but he really was dead
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Soooo ... See a balrog....run the other way?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Actually....It seems that Gandalf did die...and was brought back!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . sent back by special order of Eru, it is implied
Kellinar Trevellion nods
Dominique Darkwatch: . And got a bit of a promotion in the process
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But death for Gandalf...that was more like casting off well worn garments, wasn't it?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Still....no one survives killing a Balrog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . heh heh, no one I've heard of
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I thought so.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I'm more surprised they can be killed at all
Dominique Darkwatch: . they were not indestructible, obviously
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So in rp, the Balrog are the Tolkien equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yah...they have a soft center at least.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but you still don't want to mess with them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if you can help it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Also there is the question of whether they have wings
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . also that :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always thought if was very tricky to introduce them into a rp if you did not have Ainur who could take them on.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Well, as an analogy of a forest fire....fire and jump tree to tree or born thru ashes spread.
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, it stands to reason that a fire maia might be able to fly, since Arien obviously does
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Does it? If you recall, she was singled out as being very special, and the balrogs were "corrupted " by Melkor.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So, are fire breathing dragons related?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . interesting question. The origins of dragons are quite vague
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I thought Melkor made the first one?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . beyond that Melkor was in some way responsible. Yes, but how did he make it?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Usually corrupts some sort of existing lifeform.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . there is the idea that Melkor can't simple create new life from nothing
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . There is no point anywhere in Tolkien's work where he describes a Balrog as flying. Even in situations where it would be a huge advantage to take to the air, the Balrogs remain earthbound
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so what would you corrupt to make a dragon?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes, Ael....I wondered about that.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ohhh, interesting
Shawn Daysleeper: . . they have wings, i found a reference in LOTR
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Unusable wings?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Take when Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane. This Balrog faces two obstacles, a fiery fissure, and then a chasm crossed by a narrow bridge. These should present no problem to a winged creature.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That is one idea.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh yeah...true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Perhaps when they were twisted by Melkor, they lost the power of flight but not the wings.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So, the corrupted fire maiar lost the ability to fly.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . The Balrog made no ansawer.... and it's wings were spread from wall to wall, but Gandalf could still be seen...
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . What about Rocs? Noble eagles?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That would then lead to interesting question of why dragons could fly if the balrogs could not
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . give us the complete quote, Shawn
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, sorry, Shawn
Shawn Daysleeper: . . The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the brodge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but Gandalf could still be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Balrogs incapable of speech as well?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . wings, but no mention of ability to fly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . there is aanother ref to wings in the same chapter
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and to "a shadow like wings", I think. Don't have it in front of me
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes but really it had no room to fly in Moria.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . it's wings were too big for the space?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . no room to fly, if its wings stretch from wall to wall. It's a narrow place, where the bridge of khazhad dum was
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So we know that balrog had wings, but forever will not know if it could fly where it in an open space large enough to do so.
Dominique Darkwatch: . true
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . What about the battle at Gondolin? Any mention of Balrogs flying there?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . checking...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . as someone just said, you would think it would have been an advantage
Dominique Darkwatch: . Not necessarily... If there is a great host of archers, being in the air above makes an unobstructed target
Shawn Daysleeper: . . balrogs fought Ungoliant in the wastelands of Lammoth...
Dominique Darkwatch: . Being on the ground makes you only a target for the front ranks
Shawn Daysleeper: . . they issued from Angbad...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Could archers really destroy a balrog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . wow, Ungoliant was holding up against several balrogs at once?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . A very powerful fallen maiar?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Ungoliant, yes, it was a massive battle
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Are maiars specific to a certain nature?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ??
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maiar are a very broad and diverse group, all the Ainur who aren't the Valar
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Well, we have fire maiars, probably water maiars and the other elements. What was Ungoliant?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Like all ainur individuals may favor one element over another
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, "Maia" covers everything from beings only a little less powerful than Valar, down to fae and elementals
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Fae are maia?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so fae are miaia?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ok, they can fly, here is the quote... Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord, and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh ugh
Shawn Daysleeper: . . sooooo they fly
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . bleah
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ohhh, that sounds convincing
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . it does
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Sure does - makes them almost invincible.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but still a little vague
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh....what were the creatures that the ring wraiths flew on? Were those dragons?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . we can "arise" so to speak without flying. as in "get up"
Lihan Taifun whacks Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . the tempest of fire, though...that is .....OW!
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . True or maybe they simply can float/fly closer to the ground swiftly?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Forest fire gone wrong.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains. Therefore that region was called Lammoth; for the echoes of his voice dwelt there ever after, so that any who cried aloud in that land awoke them, and all the waste between the hills and the sea was filled with a clamour as of voices in anguish. The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder. Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the rained halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. There the full paragraph
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . wow. At least Ungoliant wasn't fighting the balrogs, she was running away from them
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Ok...that settles it....they fly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya they fly... whew
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol...great job Shawn!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . go, Shawn!
Dominique Darkwatch: . whips of flame.....wicked!
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Same probably as the whip the Balrog had before Gandalf.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . honestly, that seems to also be the best description of balrogs in the book, everything else is one liners or vague
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I agree
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Maybe it was the only weapon forged that could withstand the flaming heat.
 {From here on the discussion is primarily about Fellowship of the Fourth Age roleplay.}
Dominique Darkwatch wants to find a whip of flame for Arien
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think Aorin had one, some balrog I met did ... pretty spiffy whip, too. Maybe it was Sauron Graves, I don't remember any more
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . You may be right about that.
Dominique Darkwatch: . If it was SF compatible, that would be really awesome
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . WE need a Balrog extinguisher.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Arien wants to fight a balrog? That would be exciting
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I could see where she would
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Arien would be no wimp!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That would be quite exciting
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, if they threatened her, she would use it!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a balrog could easily pop out of any patch of Nightmare Tears, you know
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . O.O
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . they are interdimensional portals
AelKennyr Rhiano nods.  Now that woud be cool
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, ours came out from a volcano, but I think they could also come out of the Nightmare's Tears too
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . They are? wicked
Shawn Daysleeper: . . i wonder if they can be used as gates to tp between patches of nightmre's tears in the world
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, they are supposed to be portal
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I don't think anyone in the Undying Lands knows that yet, but they are
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, no one here does
Dominique Darkwatch: . If a balrog popped out thet would know
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Doubly wicked
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . probaby they can, but wouldn't it damage anyone who tried?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . probably, but it could be the 4th age versio of wormholes
Dominique Darkwatch: . any mortal certainly would be killed
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So.....what about the good guys? We are still back in the middle ages while the dark forces move around so easily?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ????
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if evil creatures lose their ability to shapeshift, do they also lose their ability to teleport? so they need portals?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Where's Radagast? Wasn't he the scientific type?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . i thought Radagast was the bird guy
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . And we have horses, ships....
Dominique Darkwatch: . I expect most Ainur can move with relative ease...they seemed to be able to traverse great distances with no problems
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh, I must have the wrong name......I thought he was like Gandalf.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, but that requires dropping the physical body
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Radagast was another wizard like Gandalf, yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . the balrogs move "like a tempest of flame" in physical bodies
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Notice how the Balrog have to travel...they cannot cast off their mortal flesh.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . well balrogs were evil maiar spirits, once a balrog, always a balrog. they couldn't shift into anything else
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yet we know even elves can use these portals but do not have that knowledge.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . wait...no, Kell, we don't know that
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Looks at Olwe.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . there is no reliable witness to how or where Olwe travelled
AelKennyr Rhiano is not Olwe...is OOC. Correct, you do not know elves can use the portal
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . No I don't, but since these patches are cropping up everywhere, well..soon we will be overun by the enemy,
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And even though one was created and Olwe stepped through...that does not mean an elf can "use" the portal
Dominique Darkwatch: . well, in the Sylvan RP, mages can and do use portals, but that is not strickly Tolkien
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And the mages....are they elven?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Daza is. And Sally and a couple of others
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But he had to learn how to do it?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, only full mages can use them
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I'm implying that even an elf could be transported thru these portals including those untainted (officially we don't know that).
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And those portals would be different in nature, I imagine, than the portal the flowers are linked to
Dominique Darkwatch: . Oh yes....going between planes is much different than simply transporting between physical locations
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but again...we don't "know" the elf won't be untainted. For all you know , the portals made Olwe even more insane and unstable
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . all evidence is that being near the flowers is very dangerous
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . That's true, but what about the ones that plant the seeds to create the patch? How did they get there?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . again, the portal was opened by someone else
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . shhhhh, I'm pretty sure that was a plot hole --oh, was there a portal involved?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . actually, no, a drow matron opened the portal for the elf
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ok
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So, only those in league with the evil forces know how to use portals?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . didn't Dom just say the mages of Sylvhara use them?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ok...but saying that just because a mage can open one sort of portal, he can open all....that is just like saying... if you know the combination to one lock, you know them all
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe it is a bit of stretch to let them open a portal into the Undying Lands, which aren't on quite the same plane as the mortal worlds, but, maybe no worse a stretch than the existance of portals at all
Dominique Darkwatch: . Going through someone else's portal would be risky if you don't know where you are going, I would think
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think the mages use them to transport over great distances...not into different planes
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . This concept of portals is only in the 4th Age?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think it was Sylvara who brought it to the 4th Age. It didn't come from the Tolkien side
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I didn't think so.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. However.... how does one get from the Undying land to Earth?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . one sails the Straight Road
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Simply by sailing there until the Pelori range went up.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, right, is that so much different?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and what is the straight road but a portal of sorts?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . since the end of the Second Age, you can't just sail directly, right
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but even that was not without risk, correct?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and the Valar can close that portal. But maybe we didn't know to be watching against these newfangled style of portals
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . they would be very hard to prevent entirely
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or that the elves would evolve to the point to learn to create them
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . hmmmm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . it would get messy if we get to a point of power vs power
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . very
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . messy for rp
Dominique Darkwatch nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the Valar should be able to close any portal into the Undying Lands. If we know about it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes. And if they close this one, can they prevent another from opening? They were not so successful last time
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . probably not in advance. And would closing the portal get rid of the flowers? probably not. And would it stay closed? Would it stay closed without a vala paying attention 24/7?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . good questions
Dominique Darkwatch: . Nothing has gotten rid of them so far
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . right,nothing has gotten rid of them so far
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . interesting dilemma
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and we don't really want to be in the business of godlike powers
Dominique Darkwatch: . Could they send them to the void or wherever Melkor is locked away?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Eru did a lot of the work in locking Melkor away, so, possibly not
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And perhaps that is where they lead?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes, we need an anecdote as these patches continue to grow in number - like building a railway system.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . perhaps if Melkor cannot break out, he has found a way to draw beings in
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and who wants to go through the portal and test that theory?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Send something viral back to Melkor.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, Remember Olwe had that encounter with the voice. We do not know if that were real or imagined.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . even if imagined, something was prompting that into his mind
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . nod nod nod. And he was near the flowers
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Melkor hardly needs to get out, if he can get his influence out
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . right, but he always like having his "henchmen"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . sure, disposable flunkies to do the work. Although, in the case of Sauron, who disposed of who? There is no record of Sauron being present at that last battle, when Morgoth was defeated
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so, I guess the portals could be a recruitment tool. AelKennyr Rhiano imitates an Army recruiter, "Come on, Son, it is only for a century or two, and the benefits are great....and we have a GI bill so you can finish school when your enlistment is up."
Dominique Darkwatch laughs
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Melkor's retirement plan wouldn't be so good
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . details, details :P
Dominique Darkwatch: . I would not travel though a portal made by a dark lord or his agents
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . exactly, probably bobby trapped
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe the flowers are healthful to demons
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol Too bad we can't reverse engineer the flower patch.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and what would you do with a reverse-engineered patch?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . If it is a portal, then it could provide a way of travel for us or Valar.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but still, I don't see the value.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . it sounds like some people do know how to create portals. Maybe Ingwe should visit Sylvhara
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . O.o Go to the mortal lands?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the world is changing, maybe some travel would do you good. They've convinced *Nienna* to visit the mortal lands
Dominique Darkwatch: . Actually, in sylvhara, they turned an elf into a demon
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . True. Is Nienna and Irmo getting there by conventional physical means? And besides...how would I get to the mortal lands. There are no Teleri sailors or ships available.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . no, I'm pretty sure we are going by non-physical means, and planning to poof back for the Ainur Council
Dominique Darkwatch: . They must be as it seems to be taking a while for them to get there
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . hmph, we haven't left yet
Dominique Darkwatch: . oh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think we will leave when your message arrives. That should be fairly alarming
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes
Dominique Darkwatch: . haha...I thought you were all dressed with your bodily functions and packed and on the road already
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . weeeeeellllll ... we should have been
Dominique Darkwatch: . okay...talking to Fifi now about it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but no one was home in Alqualonde
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no we have several threads converging atm
Dominique Darkwatch: . I need to get the word to the Valar soon then
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, so we can arrive in Alqualonde before it is too late
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, we have two other rps that need to happen in the Shinging Lands
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . in the Vanyar storyline?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . the discovery of the flowers, the rp with Mandos
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Ah yes....that reminds me. Has Josh turned in his app yet?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, not to me
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Sakura's friend Josh?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . He's working on it then and would like to resume his former role. If possible.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . which role?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . More like a made up one - Ingwe's son.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . see, didn't we tell you that once there was an Ingwe, the Vanyar might start showing up?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol. Well, as soon as I know, I will integrate him into my story as well. But I don't know his position as yet.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . WE don't have an applicaton yet :P
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . His time here is limited as he works full time during the week, I believe. They have longer work hours than we do in the US.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . then you just need to be creative about how you communicate. It just takes longer, if you are passing notes instead of being on at the same time
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes....very different timezones. In any case, he's very interested so if anything I will have one more Vanya.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . that's great
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes! But please, do not refer to them as "made up" roles....
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Btw, I did build a part of the Ingwe's castle....the Council Hall to use for a backdrop.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Cool!
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . What is the proper or technical term for a character that is not canon nor mentioned in Tolkien's works?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . there are literary roles and nonliterary roles
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Nonliterary....got it.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I have an admitted bias against using the term "canon"
Dominique Darkwatch: . we are all made up by either ourselves or someone else
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, literary roles are no better nor lesser than non literary.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I only follow what others have created or written down. If you prefer literary and nonliterary, then that is what I shall use.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I understad, my friend...:)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . is it because "canon" implies being official?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Canon was always treated or touted to me as better, more desirable. And there were lots of people who wanted me to rp Olwe in strict adherence to Tolkien's works, which would mean he had no personality whatsoever.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, a pretty short list of characters for whom Tolkien wrote personalities
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Truth is....a rp full of "canon" roles is very boring.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I think Olwe had more personality than I did...lol. I have what a paragraph or two?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Not much more
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . sheesh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Olwe has more screen time, but neither has a personality
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . oh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And not much more screen time... but she is right. I mean he had children, but no wife.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Ah well....room for more creativity.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and he objected to having his swanships stolen ... er "borrowed"
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Hey true, but I don't think Ingwe had any children.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And there is conflicting accounts of how many children he had --stolen....mutters 'thieves"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . didn't someone marry Ingwe's daughter?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Not that I heard of, except the closest relative is Indis
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, it would be reasonable for Ingwe to have a family, that never got mentioned
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . yes


AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . What is our topic for next time?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah, topic for next time. We had one suggestion for "the birth of the first elves"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yay
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Wow....that's going back a time.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I don't know what we are going to find out about it, but it is an interesting question. A good question is more fun than an answer, right?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . You mean the whole scenario at Cuivienen?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes, it is a good question.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "the whole scenerio" is hardly a paragraph, isn't it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . it begs a lot of good questions
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Interesting though....they didn't really have royalty in the beginning. Yup....may take more meetings on that one.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . right up there with the Seven Dwarf Mothers
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . youch
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . hahahahah
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . (when we were studying dwarves, we noticed Aule made seven dwarf fathers ... and apparently no females)
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I KNEW it was a lie! I should have a chat with Aule on that one and see how he explains it.