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Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Wolf Riders, Werewolves, and other “Magical” Animals

Shawn Daysleeper 
Puma Kawanishi    
Lihan Taifun           
Pyrus Soulstar        
Squeak Barzane      

We presume it is the smaller orcs (“goblins”) who ride wolves. Perhaps riding is a way for a smaller orc soldier to gain status, or just to keep up with the group.

The Dwarves in The Hobbit rode ponies, though Dwarves don't seem to have used ponies routinely. It would probably be theoretically possible for a Dwarf, an Elf, a Human, or a large Hobbit to ride a wolf. If you can imagine a motivation to do so.

Tolkien's werewolves were not shapeshifters. They may have been bipeds, although the descriptions are sparse. They were certainly highly intelligent. Were they (or were the first werewolves) Maiar? We don't know.

Huan, the Hound of Valimar, is another being of uncertain status. He is much more powerful and intelligent than an ordinary dog, and, until he came to Middle Earth with Celegorm, immortal. But the comment that Oromë gave Huan to Celegorm doesn't sound like the way a Vala would treat a Maia.

Oromë's horse Nahar is another animal we don't really understand. Shadowfax, and all the race of the Mearas, were mortal horses, but have some special qualities not well explained. Was Nahar a distant ancestor of the Mearas?

Balrogs were certainly Maiar. (Arien and the Balrogs were both fire-spirits, but we aren't ready to classify Arien as a Balrog.)

Squeak Barzane:       Qood evening. elen sila and all that. What is the topic tonight?
Lihan Taifun:            Wolf Riders, as soon as we get the chairs set up
Pyrus Soulstar:         who would ride a wolf? they are so tiny
Lihan Taifun:            good point. someone small, I would guess
Squeak Barzane:       Compared to an elf, but they are much bigger than dogs.
Lihan Taifun:            yes, but who rides dogs?
Squeak Barzane:       Forochel, if you allow sleds.

Lihan Taifun:            well, shall we start? I did find some references to the wolf riders. they seem to be a recurring theme
Squeak Barzane:       Thank you. Is the Education Center.
Shawn Daysleeper:  we started with size, who/what could ride a wolf?
Lihan Taifun:            I bet a hobbit wouldn't want to
Squeak Barzane:       Thinking about the wolf i met, at a street fair in Tucson, not only a halfling, but a small Khazad.
Lihan Taifun:            both at once?
Squeak Barzane:       Nah!
Lihan Taifun:            well, either are the right size. Small goblins, apparently
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:            it's hard to imagine a large orc riding a wolf, unles the wolf was a lot bigger than I am imagining
Puma Kawanishi:     well, the Wargs were big, yes?
Squeak Barzane:       The Wargs were of uncommon size.
Puma Kawanishi nods
Squeak Barzane:       (ROUS,HEEHEE!)
Lihan Taifun:            WOUS?
Squeak Barzane:       indeed. Also, lesser orcs were smallish.
Shawn Daysleeper:  I noticed Tolkein chose to call the enemy in The Hobbit goblins rather than orcs, and the goblins were apparently small enough to ride wolves
Puma Kawanishi:     I think goblins were a 'lesser' variety of orcs
Lihan Taifun:            I thought so, too. although possibly in The Hobbit, they were all called "goblin"
Squeak Barzane:       A way to gain stature. Tank drivers in WW2 in the old Soviet Union were selected for their small size.
Lihan Taifun:            makes sense. and maybe the smaller goblins had a harder time keeping up with the rest of the army
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya
Squeak Barzane:       Not mounted.

Lihan Taifun:            ok, small riders. what else did we find out? anyone else need a copy of what I looked up? (1, 2)
Lihan Taifun:            (give people time to read)
Lihan Taifun:            Zryon was the one who asked for this topic, and he's sleeping through the whole thing
Puma Kawanishi:     lol
Shawn Daysleeper:  lol
Puma Kawanishi:     Wake up!
Squeak Barzane:       Shhhh.
Puma Kawanishi throws a pebble at his nose
Lihan Taifun:            since Squeak is done reading, she can look at   too. archives

Squeak Barzane:       One other thing: In Sauron's dungeons at Tol Sirion, i recall, Drauglin's kin ate elves and men.
Lihan Taifun:            oh, true
Squeak Barzane:       They wouldn't try to ride werewolves.
Lihan Taifun:            but that isn't unusual for wolves, is it?
Squeak Barzane:       Perhaps they would find orcs distasteful.
Lihan Taifun:            wonder how many orcs they tried, before they gave up. or maybe I just don't understand wolf-training
Squeak Barzane:       Be glad, Lihan.
Lihan Taifun:            :P yeah
Squeak Barzane:       Could the Khazad ride them? In general they didn't do well with horses; Fellowship set aside. Aside: did Thorin? Ride a horse?
Lihan Taifun:            weren't they riding horses, or ponies, or something at the very beginning of the Hobbit?
Shawn Daysleeper:  I believe so. they lost them in the goblin caves
Squeak Barzane:       G. was, and ponies were pack animals.
Puma Kawanishi nods
Lihan Taifun:            Bilbo and the dwarves were riding, too
Puma Kawanishi:     that's what I thought
Squeak Barzane:       Dwarves could, then.
Lihan Taifun:            "They had not been riding very long, when up came Gandalf very splendid on a white horse."
Lihan Taifun:            although Dain and his army marched, on foot, all the way to the Battle of Five Armies. I'm not picturing dwarves raising horses. can't keep them underground
Squeak Barzane:       Men, Elves, Dwarves, hobbits if they were big enough.
Lihan Taifun:            was it Bullroarer Took who actually rode a horse?
Zryonotralionxus:    True and Greetings All
Lihan Taifun:            Zryon!
Shawn Daysleeper:  I remember a famous hobbit rode a horse
Puma Kawanishi:     greetings
Shawn Daysleeper:  hello Zry :)
Zryonotralionxus:    Sorry, IRL thing took a bit longer than expected, seems I got pebbles growing in my nose though!
Lihan Taifun:            don't sneeze this way
Puma Kawanishi looks around innocently
Pyrus Soulstar chuckles
Shawn Daysleeper:  hehe
Lihan Taifun:            did you find anything about wolf-riders, Zryon?
Zryonotralionxus:    Uhm, a few things in the Silarillion, much info about wolves in other forms as well
Lihan Taifun:            "other forms"? other forms of wolves, or other forms of information?
Zryonotralionxus:    other forms of wolves, such as the were wolves
Lihan Taifun:            ah, what did you find? the werewolves didn't seem to be explained much
Pyrus Soulstar:         i gtg to sleep, has already crashed on the keyboard twice
Lihan Taifun:            someone already mentioned that it would be a very bad idea to try to ride a werewolf
Puma Kawanishi:     do werewolves even run on all fours?
Shawn Daysleeper:  I thought they were bipeds
Lihan Taifun:            did it ever say?
Shawn Daysleeper:  plus I think they see everyone as an enemy in werewolf form. Did tolkein's werewolves change in the full moon? or were they always in wolf form?
Lihan Taifun:            no, no evidence they were shapeshifters at all
Shawn Daysleeper:  ah ok
Lihan Taifun:            just highly intelligent wolves
Zryonotralionxus:    Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf-shapes. that seems to suggest a biped form
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm
Squeak Barzane:       Thx, Shawn.
Puma Kawanishi:     yes, I agree
Lihan Taifun:            where is that from?
Zryonotralionxus:    Silmarillion, page 43, 4th para
Lihan Taifun:            wow, ok
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:            the werewolves seem to be more powerful than ordinary earthly wolves, but don't really sound like Maia creatures, either
Puma Kawanishi:     they could be, tho, don't you think?
Shawn Daysleeper:  no they do not seem like maia to me either
Zryonotralionxus:    Sauron did take a werewolf form
Puma Kawanishi:     hmm

Lihan Taifun:            he did, but that doesn't necessarily mean werewolves usually were
Squeak Barzane:       Children of Drauglin. How D. was twisted into being, i have no idea.
Puma Kawanishi:     ...and there were many Maia who aligned with Melkor.... where did they all go?
Lihan Taifun:            maybe some rather lower grade Maiar?
Puma Kawanishi:     ...some were Balrogs.....
Puma Kawanishi:     but what other creatures did they become?
Lihan Taifun:            not the same quality as the first dragons? ;)
Puma Kawanishi nods
Lihan Taifun:            some were balrogs, and we speculate that some were the original dragons
Squeak Barzane:       Not many. 3-7, per History of M.E. (earlier there were a thousand, but JRRT changed his mind.
Puma Kawanishi:     that makes sense
Lihan Taifun:            3-7 of what?
Squeak Barzane:       3-7 balrogs.
Lihan Taifun:            ah
Squeak Barzane:       An unfallen balrog drives the sun from dawn to dusk.
Lihan Taifun:            rofl, don't call Arien a balrog to her face!
Squeak Barzane:       Her gaze was so piercing even a Valar couldn't look her in the eye.
Zryonotralionxus:    fell creatures is mentioned often as well, perhaps these being the creatures of Melkor or ones being maia before hand
Lihan Taifun:            doesn't "fell" just mean "evil"?
Squeak Barzane:       Sometimes means pelt.
Zryonotralionxus:    could be, but it seems Melkor is the one who brought them on into the world
Puma Kawanishi:     but getting back to Arien... I don't think she was ever considered a balrog
Lihan Taifun:            she and the balrogs were both fire-spirits, certainly related
Puma Kawanishi:     She was a spirit of fire... but that is different than a balrog, imho. Puma Kawanishi blushes
Squeak Barzane:       No. She was of the order that became Balrog when corrupted. She was not redeemed, she never was lost.
Lihan Taifun:            and Huan, would he be the same mysterious sort of being as the werewolves?
Zryonotralionxus:    I think it refers to him as being more of a hound
Lihan Taifun:            well, yes, a hound rather than a wolf, but ... the same category of being
Squeak Barzane:       A wolfhound of Valinor.
Zryonotralionxus:    chief of the wolf hounds that followed Celegorm was named Huan
Lihan Taifun:            but was he a maia? or some kind of magical immortal animal?
Squeak Barzane:       Immortal,
Zryonotralionxus:    He was not born in Middle-earth, but came from the Blessed Realm; for Oromë had given him to Celegorm long ago in Valinor, and there he had followed the horn of his master, before evil came
Puma Kawanishi: maia?
Squeak Barzane:       Given to Celegorm in Valinor, and followd his master into exile.
Puma Kawanishi:     maybe not Maia... but Ainu
Zryonotralionxus:    So given seems to signal he was a creation not of maia?
Lihan Taifun:            because Orome wouldn't "give" a maia?
Puma Kawanishi:     well...there were many 'lesser' Ainu.....we've used that to explain fairies, and other spirits...
Squeak Barzane:       Perhaps of the same order as the creature that was Nahar, Oromee's steed.
Lihan Taifun:            another mysterious animal, Nahar
Zryonotralionxus:    Seems to give something would be along lines of owner ship. I would not think maia or other ainur would be owned
Puma Kawanishi:     but they could be servants to higher status Ainur the Maiar were to the Valar
Squeak Barzane:       Servanthood was essential to being maia. The only good left to Sauron was that he served another.
Zryonotralionxus:    yes, servants I seen them stated, or in service to
Lihan Taifun:            yes, but I see Zryon's point, the way it speaks of Huan does sound like "ownership" rather than "service"
Puma Kawanishi:     yes, I see the point. Puma Kawanishi nods his head
Zryonotralionxus:    the Maia seemed free willed to be in service to whom they wish, not seeming likely to be given against will
Puma Kawanishi:     but as I said...there were many levels of Ainur.... and there were no "non-immortals" in the Undying Lands
Squeak Barzane:       Olorin served at least 3 Valar. i cannot imagine him being 'given'
Puma Kawanishi nods
Lihan Taifun:            right. Puma, do you think the animals in the Undying lands were immortal?
Puma Kawanishi:     yes, don't ask me to find you a reference tho, lol
Lihan Taifun:            lol
Zryonotralionxus:    but animals seemed to be along those lines as being given up as beasts of burden
Squeak Barzane:       Shadowfax chose whether he would carry you or not.
Zryonotralionxus:    it seems Huan was immortal before going into exile. Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the
mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.
Lihan Taifun:            yes, and Shadowfax was an earthly horse, no matter how exceptional
Lihan Taifun:            yes, that implies he was immortal until then
Squeak Barzane:       Of Nahar's line.
Lihan Taifun:            do we know he was of Nahar's line?
Squeak Barzane:       i think the mearas were. Don't ask me for a reference either!
Puma Kawanishi:     lol Puma Kawanishi smiles
Lihan Taifun:            it would make some sense though
Lihan Taifun:            (assuming Nahar played around with earthly mares) (assuming he met earthly mares)
Squeak Barzane:       The foals would have Elrond's choice, perhaps.
Puma Kawanishi:     hmmm.... interesting idea
Zryonotralionxus:    Also seeming, with Huan, that he might have been set forth knowing he would meet up with Wolf-Sauron, like a prophecy
Squeak Barzane:       What you quoted earlier says as much, i think, Sir.
Lihan Taifun:            so what would that say about Huan?
Zryonotralionxus:    Hmm, almost like he would be immortal till after meeting up with Sauron.

Squeak Barzane:       (i'm not really crunchy, or good with ketchup)
Lihan Taifun:            (I think Arador dragons are forbidden to actually eat anyone. So I've been told ...)
Zryonotralionxus:    Yes, and I do not fancy nothing other than fish =P So unless your Koi, your safe ;)
Squeak Barzane gives large sigh of relief
Puma Kawanishi smiles
Squeak Barzane:       Please excuse me, i'm new here, and dragons take a bit of getting used to.
Zryonotralionxus:    And trully, mawling is technically not eating as long as there is no swallowing
Puma Kawanishi:     eep
Shawn Daysleeper:  ummm
Lihan Taifun:            yeeeees, I've also heard Arador dragons split hairs like that
Puma Kawanishi:     lol
Zryonotralionxus:    It is a catch 22 issue ;)
Squeak Barzane:       Claws are sharp, but hairsplitting? Squeak Barzane takes back the sigh of relief.

Lihan Taifun:            heh heh, so did we have any more to say on wolf riders? werewolves? Huan?
Lihan Taifun:            (is that a "no"?)
Puma Kawanishi:     :)
Lihan Taifun:            topic for next week?
Squeak Barzane:       i have a question you all may have ideas on: Could orcs be redeemed?
Lihan Taifun:            lol, that was already discussed
Squeak Barzane:       and?
Lihan Taifun:            and the consensus was yes, although it would be very difficult. what was your opinion?
Squeak Barzane:       Yes, but it would be beyond any skill of the elves, so they had a 'license to kill.'
Lihan Taifun:            yes, quite beyond the skill of elves. we were thinking "difficult for the Valar"
Squeak Barzane:       Wow!
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:            past requests ... I think it was Kell who wanted to talk about drow, and he hasn't been here lately
Squeak Barzane:       How do drow meet the legendarium?
Puma Kawanishi:     drow would be interesting.... Didn't we once talk about the possibility the their Spider deity was really Ungoliant?
Lihan Taifun:            we did, and there seems to be enough blank spaces in the history that there is room for other cultures of elves to have developed
Squeak Barzane:       What about the Arkenstone?
Lihan Taifun:            ah, what about it?
Zryonotralionxus:    or Ringwriaths
Squeak Barzane:       Was it natural or made How special was it? How was it special?
Lihan Taifun:            interesting questions
Puma Kawanishi:     yes
Lihan Taifun:            could any answers be found, or would it be 100% speculation? (not that we are shy about speculation, just asking)
Puma Kawanishi:     :D
Zryonotralionxus:    I been trying to trace the Teleri myself
Lihan Taifun:            trace them?
Squeak Barzane:       Remember, dear, no swallowing.
Zryonotralionxus:    yeah, seems many of them wandered and ended up becoming another type or name
Lihan Taifun:            ah, I see
Puma Kawanishi:     yes, many stayed in ME with Thingol.....
Lihan Taifun:            did you have a preference for next week?
Shawn Daysleeper:  nope,has anything else been suggested ?
Puma Kawanishi:     the Arkenstone?
Lihan Taifun:            drow, Arkenstone, Teleri of Middle Earth
Zryonotralionxus:    I am not picky as I enjoy any topic really!
Shawn Daysleeper:  how about Teleri of middle earth?
Lihan Taifun:            well, "Teleri of Middle Earth" would work, and we can put Arkenstone on the list of future topics

Other Creatures to Ride -- Reading Material

What else can you ride, besides horses and wolves/Wargs?  The Nazgûl found something.

"The Winged Messenger!" cried Legolas.  "I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky.  He filled us all with fear.  What new terror is this?"

"One that you cannot slay with arrows," said Gandalf.  "You only slew his steed.  It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again.  Her he was a Nazgûl, who ride now upon winged steeds.
The Two Towers, "The White Rider"

Sam:  "The Riders are about again, up in the air.  I saw them.  Do you think they could see us?  They were very high up.  And if they are Black Riders, same as before, then they can't see much by daylight, can they?"

"No, perhaps not," said Frodo.  "But their steeds could see.  And these winged creatures that they ride on now, the can probably see more than any other creature.  They are like great carrion birds.  They are looking for something."
The Two Towers, "The Black Gate is Closed"

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud.  And behold!  it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank.  A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil.  And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all other things that fly; and he gave it to his servant to be his steed.  Down, down it came, and then, folding its fingered webs, it gave a croaking cry, and settled upon the body of Snowmane, digging in its claws, stooping its long naked neck.

Upon it sat a shape, black-mantled ... the Lord of the Nazgûl,
Return of the King, "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields"

Wolves and Wolf-Riders -- Reading Material

It chanced that Celegorm and Curufin went on a hunt through the Guarded Plain; and this they did because  Sauron, being filled with suspicion, sent forth many wolves into the Elf-lands.  Therefore they took their hounds and rode forth. ... Now chief of the wolfhounds that followed Celegorm was named Huan.  He was not born in Middle-earth, but came from the Blessed Realm; for Oromë had given him to Celegorm long ago in Valinor. ... Huan followed Celegorm into exile, and was faithful; and thus he too came under the doom of woe set upon the Noldor, and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.

... for nothing could escape the sight and scent of Huan, nor could any enchantment stay him, and he slept not, neither by night nor day.

Lúthien spoke often to Huan in her loneliness ... and Huan understood all that was said.  For he comprehended the speech of all things with voice; but it was permitted to him thrice only ere his death to speak with words.

Now Huan devised a plan for the aid of Lúthien ... and he humbled his pride and suffered her to ride upon him in the fashion of a steed, even as the Orcs did at times upon great wolves.  Thus they made great speed, for Huan was swift and tireless.

But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe [Sauron] by the throat and pinned him down.  Then Sauron shifted shape ... but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly.
Silmarillion, "Of Beren and Lúthien"

Then Sauron sent Draugluin, a dread beast, old in evil, lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband.  His might was great; and the battle of Huan and Draugluin was long and fierce.  {Huan mortally injures Draugluin.}

[Much later][Huan] turned aside therefore at Suaron's isle ... and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat fell of Thuringwethil.  She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw.  Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Lúthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.

By the council of Huan and the arts of Lúthien [Beren] was arrayed now in the hame of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil.  Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; ... he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings.  Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.
Silmarillion, "Of Beren and Lúthien"


Even the wild Wargs (for so the evil wolves over the Edge of the Wild were named) cannot climb trees.  For a time they were safe.

[Most of the Wargs sat in a circle] and in the middle of the circle was a great grey wolf.  He spoke to them in the dreadful language of the Wargs.  Gandalf understood it.

The Wargs and the goblins [= orcs] often helped one another in wicked deeds.  ... Sometimes [the goblins] rode on wolves like men do on horses.
The Hobbit, "Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire"

"The Goblins are upon you! ... Behold!  the bats are above his army like a sea of locusts.  They ride upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!"

So began ... the Battle of Five Armies. ... Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.

... the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken.
The Hobbit, "The Clouds Burst"

Aragorn:  "How the wind howls!  It is howling with wolf voices.  The Wargs have come west of the Mountains!"
Boromir:  "The wolf that one hears is worse than the orc that one fears."
Aragorn:  "True!  But where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls."

Gandalf addresses the leader of the attacking wolves: "Listen, Hound of Sauron!  Gandalf is here.  Fly, if you value your foul skin!"
[There follows a battle with the wolves.]
When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. ...  "It is as I feared," said Gandalf.  "These were no ordinary wolves hunting food in the wilderness."
Fellowship of the Ring, "A Journey in the Dark"


Éomer says of Saruman:  "He has taken Orcs into his service, and Wolf-riders, and evil Men."
Two Towers, "Riders of Rohan"

Gandalf:  "Wolves and orcs were housed in Isengard, for Saruman was mustering a great force on his own account, in rivalry of Sauron and not in his service yet."
Fellowship of the Ring, "The Council of Elrond"

Merry describes Saruman's army setting out from Isengard:  "I saw the enemy go: endless lines of marching Orcs; and troops of them mounted on great wolves.  And there were battalions of Men, too."
Two Towers, p 171, Flotsam and Jetsam


Wednesday, January 19, 2011

Origins of Dragons

Flenser Juergens
Lihan Taifun
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano
DaveB1 Ballyhoo (briefly)

Dragons were created by Melkor for the wars in the First Age. Dragons are said to be the second-most-powerful of Melkor's servants, after Balrogs. Dragons appear to be smarter than Balrogs, and by some accounts it was the Dragons who led Melkor's armies.

Glaurung, an unwinged, fire-breathing dragon, was the first dragon seen, and is called the “Father of Dragons.” However, since there are other significantly different types of dragons (such as winged, and fireless = “cold”), we think it likely that each type had its own “first”, ancestor dragon.

Although not explicitly stated, it is hinted that Glaurung was a Maia.

After destroying Nargothrond, Glaurung seems to have slipped Melkor's leash, and set himself up as an independent agent.

There is no mention of dragons every suffering from old age. Are they, like elves, immune from dying of old age?

Flenser figures the function of a dragon's hoard is primarily to lure adventurers to their death in his cave. Dragons may not all have the same agenda.

Ancalagon was the strongest of Melkor's dragons, and first of the winged dragons. He appears only during the War of Wrath, when he led a fleet of winged dragons who drove back the Valar army. Ancalagon was defeated by Eärendil in his sky-ship Vingilot.

Tolkien mentions only three dragons by name: Glaurung, Ancalagon, and Smaug. {There is also an obscure mention somewhere of a dragon named Scatha, killed by an ancestor of Eorl the Young, early in the Third Age.} But many more dragons existed, and at least some survived after the War of Wrath, and indeed after the end of the Third Age.

Any dragons who did not serve Melkor – who at some point escaped his influence – would likely keep themselves hidden, to protect themselves from other dragons and from the anti-dragon prejudices of other beings. So “neutral” or “good” dragons would not appear in any stories.

How strong was Melkor's, and Sauron's, ability to corrupt the shapes of other beings? Could he force his servants into dragon form? Possibly. We also are not clear how or when the evil Maiar lose their ability to change shape. A dragon Maia could get stuck in dragon form. Melian had an earthly child, so Maiar dragons presumably could become the parents of “ordinary” dragons.

What might Melkor offer a Maia, to lure it into his service?
After Melkor was gone, did any of the dragons regret getting involved with Melkor? What would they do then? (This speculation becomes possible backstory for Zryonotralionxus' roleplay character.)

Orcs sometimes rode wolves. Is it impossible that dragons took riders?

{We meet out on the lawn, since two of the members present are large dragons.}
Flenser Juergens:     Looks like my mate will miss the meeting. A shame, he'd like the talk.
Lihan Taifun:            oh dear, yes
Flenser Juergens:     I need to see about getting him a copy of the Hobbit.
Lihan Taifun:            definitely!
Shawn Daysleeper nods. I got a new copy
Lihan Taifun:            wore out your old copy?
Flenser Juergens:     I talk about LOTR or Lovecraft and Sandy Peterson's game and his eyes glaze over a bit.
Shawn Daysleeper: ya, had it since high school, it was falling apart. Lovecraft, cool
Lihan Taifun:            oh dear, do I detect a literary incompatiblilty?
Flenser Juergens:     Oh... With the old Ballantine covers?
Zryonotralionxus:    I have everything on PDF or WMV
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
Zryonotralionxus is a modernizd drake
Shawn Daysleeper: it had a black cover
Lihan Taifun:            Shawn, do you think we should move the chairs out onto the lawn?
Shawn Daysleeper: sure :)
Zryonotralionxus:    modernized even, darn talons
Flenser Juergens:     My sister bought me those posters. I loved having a full wall covered by the maps and the artwork.
Flenser Juergens:     Out under the stars. Didn't need to do that but is nice gesture.
Lihan Taifun:            yes, starlight discussion :)
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Lihan Taifun:            there, very comfy
Zryonotralionxus:    It is a nice gesture though not sure if everyone could be heard with my size
{We establish that everyone can hear.}
Zryonotralionxus:    I'll just plant my scaled rump here then!

Lihan Taifun:            now, where is everyone else? We could start anyway :) what do we know about the origins of dragons?
Flenser Juergens:     I did some fast research, they seem to originate in the first age.
Zryonotralionxus:    From what little I found on them, just that they where created by Melkor possibly from Maiar
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, I believe they were first mentioned in the First age
Shawn Daysleeper: and served Melkor in the wars
Flenser Juergens:     Whether the spirit beings, were in the world or their a magical creation I don't know.
Lihan Taifun:            and they sounded like something new that Melkor had been brewing up
Zryonotralionxus:    Glaurung was first to apear, though when he did appear it was noted that he was young and that they aged slowly, perhaps meaning he was created a great time before his appearance
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm, interesting
Shawn Daysleeper: Dragons did seem to be ageless, the ones we see named were all killed rather than died of old age
Lihan Taifun:            I never thought about how "aging slowly" would affect how long since he was created, or whererever he came from
Lihan Taifun:            good point, you never hear of a dragon dying of old age
Zryonotralionxus:    I been trying to find a good timeline, but have not, this might help in figuring out how old Glaurung was when first being mentioned and seen
Lihan Taifun:            would you know when he started?
Zryonotralionxus:    Being he was well recorded several places in the Silmarillion
Shawn Daysleeper: Glaurung was a very powerful dragon,[2] if not the most magical. According to Tolkien, he sired the rest of his race, or at least the brood of Urulóki, wingless fire-breathing dragons.[3] He was bred by Morgoth from some unknown stock and was the first dragon to appear outside of Angband. In 455 First Age Glaurung led the attack of fire that defeated the Noldorin Elves and their allies and broke the Siege of Angband in the Battle of Sudden Flame, the Dagor Bragollach.
There are other dates that correspond to attacks he participated in. That is from wikipedia. so may not be 100% accurate, but it seems he was the first dragon
Lihan Taifun:            that sounds right, that he was the first
Flenser Juergens:     Yes, as they amassed power and knowledge they grew and developed.
Shawn Daysleeper: In Turambar and the Foalókë a comparison of power is made between dragon and Balrog, "yet of all are they (dragons) the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only..." That is from Book of Lost Tales
Flenser Juergens:     Remember my teacher - he said to never ever even thinking of trying to create a dragon. Their innate magic will enable to escape your control.
Lihan Taifun:            Encyclopedia of Arda says Glaurung that he first came out of Angband in 260
Shawn Daysleeper: that makes sense
Lihan Taifun:            well, Melkor was sometimes overconfident. As for balrogs, they may have been stronger, but I always got the impression dragons were a whole lot smarter than balrogs
Shawn Daysleeper nods. Dragons led Melkor's armies. They were certainly more tactful
Lihan Taifun:            "cunning"
Flenser Juergens:     Was discussing the reasons of a hoard earlier with my fellow partner in crime. Function of the hoard of treasure is mainly to lure people in.
Zryonotralionxus:    Also, I would think that even though Glaurung was the first of the Wingless fire drakes, leaves way for how many firsts there where of the various other dragon types
Flenser Juergens:     Cann't eat gold.
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm, you don't think the dragon was personally attached to the horde?
Shawn Daysleeper: I thought dragons were greedy... no offence lol
Flenser Juergens might have a special attachment to his things in particular. I think it's just a clever way to make sure all the adventurers eventually meet a bad end - in your cave. Rather than risk being ambushed by them someplace.
Lihan Taifun:            always better to pick your location :)
Zryonotralionxus:    I think the hoard thing varies greatly as each dragon has it's own agendas and what it sees as worth
Flenser Juergens nods
Shawn Daysleeper: well, Glaurung's purpose seemed different than ones that came later, say Smaug. Smaug was greedy, while Glaurung was more like a war leader.
Flenser Juergens nods
Lihan Taifun:            he started out as a war leader, though it sounds like later he became more independent, set up his own cave in the ruins of Nargothrond, and it sounds like he was doing his own mischief, rather than following Melkor's orders directly, by that time
Zryonotralionxus:    But in Tolkiens works, not much is noted of a dragons behavior
Shawn Daysleeper: ah good point. Smaug seemed to have his own agenda
Zryonotralionxus:    Well Glaurung did gather a hoard though
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, in Nargothrond
Lihan Taifun:            Smaug did seem to be working independently, yes
Shawn Daysleeper: the only other dragon I can think of from Tolkein's works is Ancalagon the Black
Shawn Daysleeper: Near the end of the War of Wrath that pitted Morgoth's hosts against the Host of the Valar, Morgoth sent Ancalagon leading a fleet of winged dragons from the fortress of Angband to destroy the Dark Lord's enemies. So powerful was the assault of the dragon fleet that the Host of the Valar was driven back from the gates of Angband onto the ashy plain of Anfauglith.
Zryonotralionxus:    Ancalagon however seemed to be the warrior type as he was not mentioned having a hoard and was only mentioned when he was slain in the War of Wrath
Lihan Taifun:            but he must have had relatives, since Smaug was a winged dragon, much later
Shawn Daysleeper: Ya I don't think it is ever mentioned he had a hoard
Shawn Daysleeper: well, in LOTR it is mentioned that his breath is not hot enough to melt the One ring
Lihan Taifun:            well, that one scene is all we hear of Ancalagon, isn't it?
Zryonotralionxus:    I wonder if Ancalagon was one of the first of his type?
Lihan Taifun:            that would make sense
Zryonotralionxus:    And yes, that is the only time I seen any of him is during that war
Shawn Daysleeper: The Dark Lord bred Ancalagon during the First Age to be the greatest and mightiest of all dragons, and the first of the winged 'fire-drakes'. So was Glaurung not winged?
Lihan Taifun:            and I think Ancalagon, Glaurung, and Smaug are the only named dragons in Tolkien's works?
Zryonotralionxus:    It would seem there where many firsts of various types
Lihan Taifun:            although sometimes there are vague mentions that "dragons were around", and mention of several types of dragons, in the lists of elvish words
Shawn Daysleeper: right, but none were named,as far as I know
Zryonotralionxus:    similiar to the maia, as many existed yet a few known
Flenser Juergens:     War machines. Created for specific purpose but not breeding fast.
Lihan Taifun:            fire-dragons, treasure-guarding dragons , flying dragons
Shawn Daysleeper: right, in the proper named sense
Shawn Daysleeper: we know there were a lot, but nothing specific about individuals
Lihan Taifun:            there were half a dozen different types of dragons listed, but nothing about individuals, no. But there must have been enough dragons to give rise to those words
{Ael arrives. Lihan crashes and relogs. Appropriate greetings.}

Lihan Taifun:            we were noting that only 3 dragons are named in Tolkien's works

Zryonotralionxus:    I would being that after that when Sauron was trying to rebuild Morgoth's Shawn Daysleeper: yes, some most certainly survived the war of Wrath
Lihan Taifun:            yes, it says so at the beginning of Second Age
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun:            "And Men dwelt in darkness and were troubled by many evil things the Morgoth had devised in the days of his dominion: demons and dragons, and misshapen beasts, and the unclean Orcs."
Shawn Daysleeper: I am trying to find that section lol
Lihan Taifun:            about a page into Akallabeth
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think a case could be made that the reason we do not hear of dragons who do not serve Melkor is because, to survive, they hid themselves ....both from other races and from their dragonkin who had not freed themselves from his influence.
Lihan Taifun:            that would make sense
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Zryonotralionxus:    true, also it might be that the first of a specific type is most likely to have been a maiar transformed by Morgoths hand? though there is little to state how
Shawn Daysleeper: well, orcs survived, so dragons should have been able to, and are evidenced by a few references to the Worms of the Whithered Heath in the Hobbit.
Lihan Taifun:            well, a Maia could take any shape it wanted
Zryonotralionxus:    I did read where Sauron was able to change things
AelKennyr Rhiano: He was.
Lihan Taifun:            in Children of Hurin, it says Glaurung "spoke by the evil spirit that was in him"
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, he could assume a pleasing form until he betrayed the Numenoreans, I believe
Zryonotralionxus:    was he not also able to change others against their will?
Shawn Daysleeper: that sounds like Maia to me
Lihan Taifun:            it does to me, too
Shawn Daysleeper: Lihan
AelKennyr Rhiano: But also we have evidence of Maia choosing to live with in Melian, and it could be that, with time, the maiar who became dragons chose to retain a mortal shape and life done earthly existences.
Lihan Taifun:            and Melian had an earthly child
Zryonotralionxus:    Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment
Shawn Daysleeper: it seems some maia lost the ability to change their form, I am not sure why, but Sauron was one of them
AelKennyr Rhiano: It could postulated that some dragons came to worship Light (Eru) and as a backstory, it could be that the dragons who descended from the original maia are both mortal and of good intent, seeking to right the "wrongs of their progenitors.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Was it not taken from him as punishment?
Shawn Daysleeper nods. I remember a similar theme coming up when we talked about orcs
Lihan Taifun:            or, as part of a slow decay of his powers
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Shawn Daysleeper: the ones that repented could be spared, something to that effect
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, it is never explained how Melian had very mortal children.
Shawn Daysleeper: it is theoretically possible to have Eru worshiping dragons, I would think
AelKennyr Rhiano: Even if they did not call him "Eru."
Lihan Taifun:            any "good" dragons would almost certainly have lived quiet existances, and never come into the stories
Zryonotralionxus:    It could be the maia who became dragons where tricked in doing so
Lihan Taifun:            quite possibly
Shawn Daysleeper: well, like you said Zry, anything Sauron touches gets tainted
AelKennyr Rhiano: It could be...what is your thinking along those lines?
Shawn Daysleeper: about Eru worshipers?
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, no, about the tricking of the dragons...sorry
Zryonotralionxus:    well, when they get tricked into taken the form of a dragon, they lose favor as well as give up their natural form for that of the dragon one, being forced to breed to creat the many more dragons
Shawn Daysleeper: well, they could be promised hoards
AelKennyr Rhiano: Eventually, yes, Shawn, but in their Maia state....what would they have been promised?
Shawn Daysleeper: so maia in dragon form were tricked?
Lihan Taifun:            Ungoliant figured Melkor had cheated her, it makes sense dragons might think Melkor had cheated them
Zryonotralionxus:    kind of being cursed with a body that can be killed
AelKennyr Rhiano: Because I can see that being a possibility.
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes! that is certainly true.
Lihan Taifun:            maybe being a dragon wasn't as much fun as advertised?
Shawn Daysleeper: ya, good point, the maia become stuck in a body that can be killed
Lihan Taifun:            maybe working for Melkor wasn't as much fun as advertised
Shawn Daysleeper nods. He could promise anything. What would a maia want?
Zryonotralionxus:    and of course, even if they can still change shape, their original form would be that of the dragon, which the Valar could see no matter what form they hide in
AelKennyr Rhiano: power
Lihan Taifun:            Melkor offered Ulmo's position to Osse
Zryonotralionxus:    Hmm, I been trying to think of what they would want, but I think with how Melkor was able to draw many to his side, it could be through lies and deciet he brought them over
AelKennyr Rhiano: or he perhaps sowed the seeds of jealousy or discontent among certain Maia. "Why is it that one is an aratar and you are not? Why does Manwe have the ear of Eru and not you?
Zryonotralionxus:    Of course after he tricked them and changed them to his will, then they where trapped to serve him, only some escaping after the battle of wrath
Lihan Taifun:            yes, after the War of Wrath, all the dragons would be on their own, at least until Sauron tried to round them up
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think, too, we would need to examine how Tolkien regarded the nature of evil.
Zryonotralionxus:    Those that where Maia to start might be regretting the past and wanting to redeem themselves in some way, even though they lost their true form forever
AelKennyr Rhiano: nodnodnod or their descendents
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
Lihan Taifun:            yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: They could have also sacrificed their true forms in an effort to redeem themselves.
Zryonotralionxus:    True, though the descendents would be more easily drawn back into service I would think, being even weaker than the first of their creation
Lihan Taifun:            but also the descendants were born into service, rather than having ever chosen it
Zryonotralionxus:    yes, very
AelKennyr Rhiano: You are forgetting, though, some powerful themes in Tolkien, though.
Lihan Taifun:            so, when they had a chance to think about things, would they wonder what other option there were?
AelKennyr Rhiano smacks the keyboards
Zryonotralionxus:    they would not know much other than that they where born to see
AelKennyr Rhiano: I do not agree. At least, I think to leave it at that would make them very one dimensional.
Flenser Juergens:     I'm going to have to go. Been a very nice discussion.
Zryonotralionxus:    Well that could be, being they are smarter than the orcs, they may have seen more during the period when they where scattered after the war?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes...also they were Maia at one time....they would have a wisdom and a viewpoint that was not as restricted as mortal beings. Their ancestors once knew the "grace" of being in the presence of Eru.
Zryonotralionxus:    It did seem that Glaurung decided to stay with his new found hoard after completing what was asked of him by Morgoth. But it is posible he was Maia being the first of his type
AelKennyr Rhiano: Tolkien seems to repeat the struggle of mortals to ascend to their highest and most noble within themselves. That would "fit" very well when we look at the genesis of good dragons. I think Glaurung was Maia, wasn't he?
Zryonotralionxus:    I assumed he was
Lihan Taifun:            he sounds like one
Shawn Daysleeper: I think he was
AelKennyr Rhiano: It reads like he was.
Lihan Taifun:            that part about "speaking by the evil spirit within him" sounds suspiciously like a Maia
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:            and as Zryon said, Glaurung seems to have gone off on his own, at the earliest opportunity, even when Morgoth was still in power
AelKennyr Rhiano: I could see an explanation for good dragons emerging in the 4th Age being very plausible. I could also see bad dragons who emerge who are not under Melkor's direct power but who, by their evil nature, could suit his purpose.
Lihan Taifun:            like Smaug?
Shawn Daysleeper: nods
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. yes, like Smaug
Zryonotralionxus:    true
AelKennyr Rhiano: And I think a very good and strong and innovative storyline could be developed for the good different from the "same old, same old."
Zryonotralionxus:    but even so, those who are trying to do good will find it hard to be accepted for what they are, especially if not one changed from maia and being not able to change form
Lihan Taifun:            that adds to the drama of the situation,doesn't it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: That, too, can be a powerful theme.
Zryonotralionxus:    yes, very much so
Lihan Taifun:            anti-dragon prejudice
Zryonotralionxus:    Would other maia be able to sense or see a dragon hiding in another form? Or would only Valar be able to do so? Or just Ainur themselves know ones true form
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, that would be fun and interesting to develop
AelKennyr Rhiano: But also remember, in the 4th Age, there would be two predominant types of prejudice..... One sort from the Eldar elves and Ainur who know the history of the dragons....and another from the creatures of the mortal world...who know dragons by evil reputation and stories that stem from the actions of dragons with evil intent.
Shawn Daysleeper: maybe not all valar, but the Valar whose charge includes the spirits would know I believe
AelKennyr Rhiano: I would say all IF they bothered to look. Because we know they can touch each other's minds.
Shawn Daysleeper: ah ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: The question is....would they bother?
Lihan Taifun:            but a lot can escape them, if they aren't specifically looking
Shawn Daysleeper: some would not care
AelKennyr Rhiano: Exactly.
Shawn Daysleeper: and some may not understand the spirits like others would
Zryonotralionxus:    but can they not also block their minds or keep their inner thoughts guarded?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, they can do that
Zryonotralionxus:    I believe I read that somewhere in the Silmarillion
Lihan Taifun:            although, refusing to communicate telepathically is one thing. Being able to prevent other ainur from noticing you are a maia might be something else
AelKennyr Rhiano: They could....I mean, right now in the rp, Olwe's mind is shielded from all the if it can be done for a mortal.....yes, you did....the mind of Aule after he created the dwarves. He hid what he had done for awhile. It would mean a rather constant vigilance.
Lihan Taifun:            on the other hand, would you want to prevent the Valar from knowing?
Shawn Daysleeper: ya I would think it would be a benefit if the valar found out, and you were trying to be good
Zryonotralionxus:    I would think a maia hiding his thoughts from another maia would be not to hard, but hiding it from a valar or ainur would be hard if not impossible?
AelKennyr Rhiano: but Maiar are Ainur
Lihan Taifun:            I think you could hide, unless the Valar really called you on the carpet and DEMANDED answers
AelKennyr Rhiano: I would want to hide if I were unsure of how I would be accepted.
Zryonotralionxus:    What I think I meant Aratar then, not Ainur
AelKennyr Rhiano: oooh...ok
Lihan Taifun:            ok
Zryonotralionxus:    My boo boo
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, if Ulmo turned his attention to you, or Irmo or Nienna, or especially Manwe, they would recognize you.
Zryonotralionxus:    That is what I would think
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think of those, you would want Nienna to find you out first.
Lihan Taifun:            and if they really forced the issue, they could read your thoughts, but it would take an extreme case for them to do that
Zryonotralionxus:    but then they would also perhaps see into the heart itself and not be so quick to judge if ones heart and mind are repentive
Lihan Taifun:            also true, what they saw would be your true thoughts
AelKennyr Rhiano: Like the Federation in Star Trek, they have a pretty strong "Prime Directive" :P
Lihan Taifun:            very strong "Prime Directive" toward the Children
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Shawn Daysleeper: nod
Zryonotralionxus:    I am not sure of what that is, not a star trekkie =P
Lihan Taifun:            and it would be pretty rude to use force on another ainu
AelKennyr Rhiano: and they are better about it than Kirk was
Zryonotralionxus:    All I know is Kirk was after any female form they came across!
AelKennyr Rhiano: hahah
Shawn Daysleeper: Prime Directive is like a code of ethics and a protocol that is followed
Lihan Taifun:            in Star Trek, the Prime Directive stated that advanced races were not allowed to interfere with less advanced cultures
Zryonotralionxus:    ah
AelKennyr Rhiano: It protected "infant" or developing worlds
Shawn Daysleeper: ah yes
Lihan Taifun:            (except that it was frequently violated for plot purposes)
AelKennyr Rhiano: (so were the women Kirk encountered!)
Zryonotralionxus:    lol on the violated women!
Lihan Taifun:            (you're seriously endangering my keyboard!!!)
{Shawn leaves. Farewells.}

Zryonotralionxus:    Other thought I had on my mind, It was mentioned pf wolves with riders, where there also mounted drakes as well?
AelKennyr Rhiano: I cannot find anything about mounted drakes, but it would not be unreasonable.
AelKennyr Rhiano: But you would have to explain who the riders were and their history with the dragons. Also their relationship with the dragons they ride.
Zryonotralionxus:    It did not seem to mention much other than the winged drakes being Morgoths last assualt
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, but they were just plot tools and you would be developing more, right?
Zryonotralionxus:    But it seems if the wolves had riders that then why would they not use the dragons in the same mannor, as mounts
AelKennyr Rhiano: Greetings.....waves at the new arrival.
Zryonotralionxus:    Greetings Dave. Where the Orcs the riders on the wolves? I did not see it mentioned what or who rode them in the Silmarillion
AelKennyr Rhiano is looking
Zryonotralionxus:    I do remember that from the cartoon movie from 1977
AelKennyr Rhiano: I cannot find where it is mentioned...still looking
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: In LOTR II the orcs rode Hyenadons
Zryonotralionxus:    I believe it was in the first assault, I will search my PDF
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: In the Hobbit they had dealings with and rode wolves
AelKennyr Rhiano: Remember there are some distinct departures in the movie from the books. Zyron...who would be your "riders?" Humans..elves?
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: They May have been Uruk Hai
Zryonotralionxus:    But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, I found that, too. So that leaves it open for interpretation.
Zryonotralionxus:    I would assume Orcs, being that humans did not seem to be a big part till after the battle of wrath when Sauron began building new forces
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think that would be a valid reasoning.
Lihan Taifun:            yes, didn't the orcs in The Hobbit ride wolves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think so...I was juggling books and looking :)
Zryonotralionxus:    Seemed Melkor took no real note of the humans, seeming to see them as a nothing worth while
AelKennyr Rhiano: He bent his attention upon the first children of Eru...for many reasons.
Tolkien never once to my knowledge refers to orcs or goblins riding wargs -- he only ever uses "wolf-riders", "goblins riding wolves" etc. It may well be that "wolves" is intended as a generic term that includes wargs at least some of the time... but to ignore a precise and consistent use of words in the writing of a figure like Professor Tolkien seems foolhardy to me.
Zyron, would the dragons with whom your character was most closely associated have dragonriders?
Zryonotralionxus:    I thought some where I recall goblins on wolves and orcs on dragons, but not sure if that was a D&D scenerio or something else. Well, I am working on the PC in my mind, one thought was having a rider would kind of force him to have to battle as the rider would be kind of like a warden
AelKennyr Rhiano: lost me...please explain
Zryonotralionxus:    either that or the fear of Morgoths wrath being his reasoning to fight at first till he saw the battle was falling and took it as a good time to escape in some fashion
AelKennyr Rhiano: huh?
Zryonotralionxus:    Well, being a Maia that may have been having second thoughts with his choice of alliance, he, like the many others forced into service, would be assigned a rider who had some sort of power or control over him to keep him from escaping at first chance of flight
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ok...I think I am missing some chunks of your intended character a mortal dragon, or a Maia?
Zryonotralionxus:    Maia
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ok! That helps. So he was "tricked" by Melkor in the very beginning? He was among those recruited.
Zryonotralionxus:    Yes, tricked to give up his original form for that of dragon
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok.....that helps to know that part :) omg...such a cute dragon! I love the av!!!
Zryonotralionxus:    Oh, Dave lol, I was lost there
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: :)I wish I could copy it
AelKennyr Rhiano: It's great!
Lihan Taifun:            awwww
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: its brighter gold than my Big one
Zryonotralionxus:    I guess what I am trying to put together is why he waited till the War of Wrath to finaly escape, being it is good reasoning he was in Morgoths service from about the same time as all the other First dragons where created
AelKennyr Rhiano: What happened to your rider, Zyron? How did your character break free?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Was his rider killed?
Lihan Taifun:            would a mortal rider be able to control a maia dragon?
AelKennyr Rhiano: not without Melkor's help, I bet.
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: they could hardly handle us
Zryonotralionxus:    Seeing the fall of Ancalagon and know the comming loss, he dumps his rider or makes his rider think it is best he jumps off, got a few things brewing on that thought
AelKennyr Rhiano: Melkor was as much about twisting the spirit as he was about corrupting or twisting the form of his follwers.
Zryonotralionxus:    Being he gave up his Maia Form, technically he was in a body that could be easily killed, so even if able to change form, he lost much of what he had as a maia as well most likely
Zryonotralionxus:    well not easily being a dragon, but can be killed none the less
AelKennyr Rhiano: I can see that reasoning, Zyron... Would we like to discuss the wolf riders next time? Give us a chance to do some research and come back and discuss?
Zryonotralionxus:    Being the winged drakes where not seen till the War of Wrath, it is possible they where held captive or contained below the earth till set loose as well
Lihan Taifun:            they did show up later than the fire dragons
Zryonotralionxus:    or where in training to be mounts
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. or held in reserve for a special reason
Zryonotralionxus:    yeah, signifying them as perhaps the mightiest of dragons, being Ancalagon was among them
AelKennyr Rhiano: IT would be stragetic to hold your biggest weapons in reserve rather than release them indiscriminately. And Melkor was a stragetist....unless his ego blinded him.
Zryonotralionxus:    yeah, though trying to see if he used them perhaps in the fall of Numenor, being he came over the highest mountains, the least guarded
Lihan Taifun:            Gondolin?
Zryonotralionxus:    Oh wait, yeah that one lol
Lihan Taifun:            "dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they had become now many and terrible"
Zryonotralionxus:    guess they climbed
Lihan Taifun:            could be, there were orcs and wolves in the army, too, and balrogs
{Ael passes out some pictures of dragons attacking Gondolin. I can't post those, but there are other similar pictures of dragons.}
Zryonotralionxus:    Thanks Ael, though I believe I have all those already
AelKennyr Rhiano: ooops :)
Lihan Taifun:            ooh, dragon pictures!
Zryonotralionxus:    no problem, now I have them in my texture folder as well lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: :)
Zryonotralionxus:    but I found and downloaded all of Tolkiens works, letters he read himself as well as songs, pictures, PDF books and audio books. I tend to get obsessed when something tingles my interests lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, cool
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: Looks like a black dragon attacking Minas Tirith
Lihan Taifun:            it says it's Gondolin being attacked
Zryonotralionxus:    yeah, got four files where it is Tolkien himself reading
Lihan Taifun:            wow
Zryonotralionxus:    I believe from the sound they are recorded from within one of his classes
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: when Bel was running Oiolaire there was a dwarf mine sim, Nogrund
AelKennyr Rhiano: I have one more, and I believe you could make a case for winged dragons at Gondolin
Lihan Taifun:            those look winged
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: I went there once as an ancient smaug would have to be an adult when he attacked the lonely mountain....he's to big as an ancient
Zryonotralionxus:    now that one I do not have! and yes, I see wings
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ta-da! if you consider the terrain, which we have all would make sense.
Zryonotralionxus:    But of course that would be artist inturpretation
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, of course, but it did make me more cognizant of the terrain.
Zryonotralionxus:    I thought that being it said that was the highest mountain side and less guarded that they went over
Lihan Taifun:            but the text says "dragons of the brood of Glaurung", which would be unwinged dragons
AelKennyr Rhiano: Would they, of necessity be wingless? We do not know who his mate was, do we?
Lihan Taifun:            right, they went over the highest, and least guarded side of the mountains
Zryonotralionxus:    hmm, less that signifies that some of his line evolved with wings?
AelKennyr Rhiano: If they were bred for this task...
Zryonotralionxus:    or where cross bred with a winged drake
AelKennyr Rhiano: Would "drake" indicate "male?" Can I profess my ignorance on that point?
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: drake would be a small dragon
AelKennyr Rhiano: I should point out that with some with is actually the female who is winged.
Zryonotralionxus:    I would guess that there was many various dragons first created from Maia, then bred to creat the various types needed as perhaps eachmaia brought with them certain traits into their dragon form
AelKennyr Rhiano: That would be very plausible.
Zryonotralionxus:    like one who once was a servant of Ulmo would have some traits pertaining to water or the sea
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
DaveB1 Ballyhoo: Dragons can live anywhere
Zryonotralionxus:    And it is mentioned Maia would have one or two valar the revered. Each of the Maiar was associated with one or more particular Vala, and were of similar stock, though less powerful
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes...they generally associate and assist a certain Vala...the ones that Tolkien mentions and writes about. Your character could have been once a Maiar associated with one of the Valar.
Lihan Taifun:            so you would expect a maia of Ulmo to have water-qualities
AelKennyr Rhiano: Of course if you were once a Maiar of Ulmos
Zryonotralionxus:    I already have him associated with Ulmo and another, though not sure which other would perhaps explain the ice drake side? though ice is a form of water
AelKennyr Rhiano: would beg the question...would he recognize you?
Zryonotralionxus:    I would think he would and my character would most likely avoid the water
AelKennyr Rhiano: So it could be risky to be in Alqualonde for your character. I do not know of a Maiar associated with two Valar?
Zryonotralionxus:    I do not know either, just it was mentioned in the wiki about them being associated sometimes with more than one, but nothing I am stuck with as rule
Lihan Taifun:            Gandalf
AelKennyr Rhiano: However, if you are seeking forgiveness and redemption....then perhaps Alqualonde would attract you, given that Ulmo was fond of the Teleri and Alqualonde is vulnerable now, as it is part of the mortal world.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Gandalf?
Lihan Taifun:            wasn't Gandalf officially associated with Manwe, but did some cross-training with Nienna
Zryonotralionxus:    That was a thought
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh...I like that..."cross training"
Zryonotralionxus:    he is trying to redeem himself, Umo knows of him doing so and banishes him from the waters till he proves himself in some way
AelKennyr Rhiano: Can we send Ossee to be "cross trained" with Aule?
Zryonotralionxus:    which torments him since he longs to be back into the water he loves. Also thought that he can see his dragon form when he looks into a body of water, in a way a reminder to him that Ulmo is watching him
AelKennyr Rhiano: Gandalf is the wisest of the Maiar. He was known as Olórin, who sometimes dwelt in the gardens of Irmo and was the pupil of Nienna, who taught him wisdom and pity, and of Manwë and Varda. When the Valar decided to send the order of the Wizards (also known as the Istari) to Middle-earth, Olórin was proposed by Manwë and Varda, in order to counsel and assist all those in Middle-earth who opposed the Dark Lord Sauron.
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...really THREE Valar.
Zryonotralionxus:    I should just write something out and have it proof read, cause my mind will just keep pondering various scenerios lol
Zryonotralionxus:    from the wiki "Each of the Maiar was associated with one or more particular Vala"
Lihan Taifun:            "one" is the most common situation
AelKennyr Rhiano: Before you write that a Vala is acting upon your character in your backstory....and that action is not part of Tolkien's work...please check with me before making that kind of blanket statement.
AelKennyr Rhiano: Some people are playing Vala, and that is, technically, metagaming.
Zryonotralionxus:    Well, I would have you proof read it, just to make sure it is ok before doing any finishing works
AelKennyr Rhiano: thank you :)
Zryonotralionxus:    No problem, anything I am speaking of or I put into writting I am more than happy to rework to fit =)
Zryonotralionxus:    Is Ulmo one being played?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Zryonotralionxus:    Ok, then will tread lightly there
AelKennyr Rhiano: :) A devishly handsome fellow, too :P
Lihan Taifun:            *snort*
Zryonotralionxus:    Hmm, did I meet him already?
AelKennyr Rhiano chuckles and blushes. oh yes. He is quite in his
Zryonotralionxus:    Is he here now? lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: Most assuredly
Lihan Taifun:            but Ulmo doesn't wear clothes
Zryonotralionxus:    Either does a dragon =P
Lihan Taifun:            very true
Zryonotralionxus:    So then perhaps, once I get a PC outline and it is accepted, will have to find out where Ulmo hangs out and avoid there for a while or get a good disguise =P
Lihan Taifun:            is it a problem if Ulmo knows where you are?
Zryonotralionxus:    Hmm, that all depends on Ulmo I would think, Since my character would not know he know where he is. Kind why I figured my Character would avoid water ways, being Ulmo uses those to keep informed of things about the world
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ulmo is one very informed Vala....and one of the Araar.
Lihan Taifun:            (sorry guys, I'm falling asleep here)
AelKennyr Rhiano: YEs, let's call it a night...pick up next week?
Lihan Taifun:            did we pick a topic?
AelKennyr Rhiano: the wolf riders?
Zryonotralionxus:    Ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: is that ok?
Lihan Taifun:            if that is what people want, sure
Zryonotralionxus:    Fine with me, I am enjoying these discussions greatly, not to mention tonights helped allot in me figuring which path to start my character!