Kellinar Trevellion
Shawn Daysleeper
Koni Lanzius
Flenser Juergens (briefly)
Geerkil Ziskey (briefly)
Harumi Oanomochi
Zryonotralionxus
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Summary:
Tolkien's notes, as recorded in Parma Eldalambion xvii, show a slightly different use of terms than the Silmarillion use, which we have been following.
Silmarillion Parma Eldalambion
spirit beings before creation Ainur Ainurgreater spirit beings in Arda Valar Valar
lesser spirit beings in Arda Maiar Maiar
spirit beings in Arda in general Ainur Maiar
The difference is only in what to call the general class of spirit beings within Arda (within the created world), that is, the term for “Valar + Maiar”.
Tolkien kept revising elements of his universe his whole life, where many modern professional authors would hesitate to upset their fans by contradicting something they had already published. So there are many details of Tolkien's universe, and languages, where we may never know the “final, official” version, only the various options he considered.
Having all JRRT's notes published now is a mixed blessing. We enjoy seeing his thoughts evolve, but sometimes the notes raise more questions than they answer. Presumably what he published is more authoritative than his notes. But remember that he did not himself pick which versions of stories to include in the Silmarillion. That was done by his son Christopher, after his death.
{Delay for repairs to the library where we are meeting.}
AelKennyr Rhiano . . . Kell, could you please start us off with a brief discussion about who the Ainur and Maiar are, please?
Kellinar Trevellion . . ok The Ainur comprises of the greater and lesser Ainu. Greater beings are the Valar and the lesser are the Maiar. I'm not positive since Ainur is not my forte, that certain maiar may report to specific valar. Most valar report to Lord Manwe who is more directly communicates to Eru Illluvatar. How badly have I explained that? lol
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . the dragons have to sit in the corner by themselves?
Flenser Juergens . . . .Sorry, I had no idea this discussion was going to be so sophisticated, I tried reading Silmarian 20 years ago and never finished.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . oh, some weeks are more sophisticated than others :P but I got a new book for Christmas, and just had to show everyone what was in it. We had a request for next week to discuss "origins of dragons"
Flenser Juergens . . . .:) That's a complex one.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . and very little is known for sure
Flenser Juergens . . . .I know a little, but as to any history that Tolkein might have written of them - I know nothing.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . well, next week, then!
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Yes, I have not found much at all and I been searching
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . what did I miss so far of this week?
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Kell was telling us about the Ainur :P
Shawn Daysleeper . . .cool
Kellinar Trevellion . . yah....don't worry everybody...I know absolutely nothing and just winging it
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . that's ok
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . ~**smiles**~
Zryonotralionxus . . . .I "wing" it all the time =P
Kellinar Trevellion . . heheh
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Sooo....Ainur
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . Ainur? anyone read the Parma Eldalambion notecard I sent out ... ages ago? {link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4}
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .This card about using Maia rather than Ainu...what is your take, Lihan?
Flenser Juergens . . . .I hate to leave but Geerkil hasn't read any of Tolkein - Silmarian is not the best of intro to Tolkein.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . read The Hobbit first, except the dragon loses ....
Shawn Daysleeper . . .oh ya :(
Flenser Juergens . . . .I know I have a big book somewhere with green cover - saved it from rumage sale - will see what it is.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . but he's a great dragon, up until that point
Geerkil Ziskey . . . . . . Too often books with dragons have the dragon lose
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . you need to write some new stories, then
Flenser Juergens . . . .Have a good night. We'll be back next week.
{Farewells}
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Hmm, I have many books where the dragon wins!
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . about "Maiar" and "Ainur" ... I kept noticing, in Parma Eldalambion, how often Tolkien changed his mind. Maybe that is the nature of a collection of his notes to himself
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .We have seen his inconsistency consistently :)
Kellinar Trevellion . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper . . .lol
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . ~**smiles**~
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, so I think all this proves is that at one point in his life, he considered that usage of the words
Zryonotralionxus . . . .I can relate to that, I always am constantly rewritting things as I reread them
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . I don't think we can say it was his final, definative answer. Right, Zryon
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .I can see that, given his interests.
{Lihan crashes and relogs.}
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . so I was saying Tolkien changed his mind a lot on a lot of things, and I don't know that his opinion on "Ainur" was his final word on the topic
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .But Lihan, there seems to be a hierarchal structure to the Ainu, doesn't there? In the Silmarilion?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, definitely, and he wasn't changing that hierarchy, just debating what to call them
Shawn Daysleeper . . .yes I think there is a hierarchal structure
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .But wasn't Maiar one of those class distinctions?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . the way we have been using the word, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .You don't think it was in the Simarillion?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . in the Silmarillion, "Maia" was the word for the "less powerful" class, and "Ainur" was the word for the class in general -- Valar and Maiar together
Shawn Daysleeper . . .is it like a Venn diagram, all fall within the name Ainur, but then A is Valar and B is Maiar?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes
Shawn Daysleeper . . .it's a classification scheme then?
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .In my discussions with Zyron, I noticed that Melkor was never able to subvert any Valar, just Maiar.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . in the Parma Eldalambion version, the general class is "Maiar", and then there are "Valar" and "all the rest of the Maiar"
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .lol. Vala, and "y'all"
Shawn Daysleeper . . .but all fall under the name Ainur as well
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . in Silmarillion, they all fall under Maiar {I said that, but it is wrong}
Shawn Daysleeper . . .oh?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . in the Parma Eldalambion note, "Ainur" only refers to the spirit beings outside Arda. So, it depends on which version you are going with
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .So would that include those like Gandalf?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . Gandalf was a Maia, under all classification schemes
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .ok. Is anyone else getting confused? :P
Shawn Daysleeper . . .yes
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . ~**smiles**~
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .yay
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . always "Valar"and "Maiar", just a difference in what the general overall category is called
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .ok
Shawn Daysleeper . . .I was thinking the overall umbrella was the name Ainur
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Not yet, kinfa following decently
Harumi Oanomochi: . and I think that unlike most commercial authors, who would say, "Oh, I can't change this and anger my fans," because Tolkien was a scholar first, he kept refining his world until it was aligned with his vision of it as he developed the world further. (Having trubs typing tonite)
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .And that would be in keeping for writers of his background living in his time period.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . I think Harumi has it exactly
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .nod nod nod
Shawn Daysleeper . . .nods
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . he wan't thinking about whether or not he was confusing his fans. He wasn't even thinking the fans would ever read those notes
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .You see many writers of that time period doing exactly this
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . and remember the various histories of Galdriel?
Shawn Daysleeper . . .and Celeborn
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Well, even for any writer who got into his writting, one always tends to change things constantly till they find the outline or story they are comfortable with or that fit into the whole picture they are trying to portray
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .You know, it brings up a question...are we better for having these notes of his? He never met for his readers to see them. Do they help or do they distort and hamper?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . well, I'm glad the Silmarillion was published!
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .yes!
Shawn Daysleeper . . .they let us see his thought processes
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .I agree.
Shawn Daysleeper . . .and yes I am glad the sil was published :)
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .but then does there come a point where we see too much?
Harumi Oanomochi: . well, they do tend to muddle things, but give a picture of the world evolving in his mind.
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .yes!
Shawn Daysleeper . . .nope, because these discussions would stop
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .lol
Harumi Oanomochi: . Shawn, LOL
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . I also agree with Ael, we are getting to the point where the notes are muddling as much as they are clearing up
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .I disagree, Shawn...We would still ponder and examine his works...we just would conjecture more? if that were possible? :P
Zryonotralionxus . . . .I would think what he finaly left get published would be what he thought as being his descission, the notes would obviously then be like numbers he was messing with to get to the finaly equasion
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Good way to put it!
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, complicated by the fact that HE didn't assemble the Silmarillion, his son Christopher did. So we don't know that what was published in the Silmarillion is the version JRRT himself would have chosen
Harumi Oanomochi: . nods...and there was a LOT of input/feedback from his readers and other scholars...many of the notes and info from the Silmarillion are culled from these sources
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, some of his letters to fan are wonderful explanations
Shawn Daysleeper . . .nods
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .It's not...he would have given all our rp characters bigger parts!
Shawn Daysleeper . . .hehe
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Or at least more info on the dragons =P
Shawn Daysleeper . . .but, having less info about our characters from canon sources allow us flexability
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . now, if he wrote lots of mushy stuff between Olwe and his wife, where would that leave you?
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Divorced
Shawn Daysleeper . . .that would be nice about dragons
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . ~**smiles**~
Harumi Oanomochi: . hahahaha
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, he could have said more about dragons :) and balrogs
Harumi Oanomochi: . LOL
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . hehehe
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .lol
Shawn Daysleeper . . .the great maiar in general, such as Ungoliant
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .And poor Ulmo would have a Mrs, Ulmo
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . uh oh
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .nod nod nod
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Maybe Ulmo was happy in his solitude
Shawn Daysleeper . . .nods
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . I got that impression about Ulmo
AelKennyr Rhiano . . ."The Secret Life of Ulmo"
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . ~**smiles**~
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . O.O
Shawn Daysleeper . . .looks for it in the romance section
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .lolol
Kellinar Trevellion . . It's the blue book.
Shawn Daysleeper . . .with Ulmo on the cover hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Hahahaha "He rode the waves to find romance." roflmao
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . hehehe
Zryonotralionxus . . . .So, then is it assumed that the Maiar where the lessor out of the two in reguards to the Valar?
Harumi Oanomochi: . Don't the faeries have a Dewy Decimal System in this library? (ducks)
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . :D
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .hahahaah
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . we have been using the word that way, which is how the Silmarillion uses it
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Considering where we are it's more "Huey, Louy, and Dewy"
Shawn Daysleeper knows where all the romance novels are in this library
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . ewwwww
Shawn Daysleeper . . .hehe
Koni Lanzius . . . . . . . hehehe
Shawn Daysleeper . . .jk
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .yeah, we have descended into siliness.
Shawn Daysleeper . . .it's good to be silly sometimes
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .s:)
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Some of the great minds are insane or so thought to be in their time
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Well back to the Maia vs Ainu...does it really change how we perceive them, though, or their purpose in Tolkien's works?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . not a bit, it's just the name
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .Do we want to move on to "fana?"
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . do people want to start a new section now? we got such a late start
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .do we want to wait until next week? I'm ok with whatever everyone decides.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . next week is dragons, remember?
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .oh, the week after then, sorry
Zryonotralionxus Resident is an insomniac so does not matter =P
Shawn Daysleeper . . .we could do fana the week after
AelKennyr Rhiano . . .yes, we could.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . we could
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Are these 9 great rulers Valar?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . huh, which 9?
Zryonotralionxus . . . .It mentions Maia as the Kin of the Valar, especially of those of lessor power than the 9 great rulers?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . right, I found that now, yes, those would be the Valar, although in the final version there were 14
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Hmm, I read of there being 14 + 1 being Melkor as being the Ainur
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, exactly
Zryonotralionxus . . . .making it 15
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . there were once 15, but Melkor got kicked out
Zryonotralionxus . . . .So then this is going off the baises that the Ainur as a collective are the Valar and Maiar?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . the Silmarillion uses Ainur as the collective, yes
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Ah, ok
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . and we have been using Ainur as the collective
Zryonotralionxus . . . .so then the 9 was a thought he changed in a way
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . we have a group called "Ainur of the Fourth Age", for our Valar and Maiar
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Well I am being very curious on the Maiar since my proposed character seems to be leaning to comming from that origin
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, Maiar are an interesting class of beings, ranging from some who humans could easily mistake for gods, down to beings much like fae
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Ah
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . and includes Ungoliant (probably), balrogs, Sauron, and the Five Wizards. Quite possibly Tom Bombadil, although that is never stated
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Now I seen there is pairing between the 14, does the offspring from those fall under Valar or Maiar?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . six pairs, plus two singles (Ulmo, and Nienna). In the Silmarillion version, the Valar did not have "offspring", although obviously Tolkien did play with that idea
Zryonotralionxus . . . .ok, so they just paired for company?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . heh heh, it isn't really clear what that pairing meant
Zryonotralionxus Resident nods
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . obviously they had some bond. Then some of the Valar are describes as being siblings, and it isn't clear what that really means, either
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Now I also see that there are few named Maiar, is this because they where not given names, kinda as just being nameless or that names just where never stated? and I did see where the word Kin is used
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . hmmmm, good question about the names. I suppose they all had names, just never mentioned, but how would you know for sure?
Zryonotralionxus . . . .but I think at times kin is not always used in relation to being related in blood, more so as having a common ground
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . yes, and a lot about the ainur "relationships" must be metaphorical, since they are so different from humans or even elves
Zryonotralionxus . . . .Well, as dragons go and the lore I know of them, they all had names though most never knew them and refered to all as just dragons less they earned a name for some event
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . that makes sense
Zryonotralionxus . . . .and I believe as in angels go as well, only those of importance seemed to have a name, whether this is because they never had a need for one or it was never mentioned
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . most of our records of the Ainur are from the elves, and probably large numbers of the ainur never interacted much with the elves
Zryonotralionxus Resident nods
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . you would think all the records would be from the elves, since humans never met the ainur in person
