This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

The discussion group continues to meet
in Second Life in Alqualonde the Swanhaven. Contact AelKennyr Rhiano in Second Life.

Thursday, February 24, 2011

Assorted Links We Have Found

A real-life ship with an Elvish (Sindarin) name:

Interesting issues about Tolkien's (probably unconscious) attitudes toward race, status, and genetics:

an old favorite:
If Lord of the Rings had been Written by Someone Else:
"My name is Baggins. Frodo Baggins. 00Hobbit, license to quest. "
Dr. Seuss, Homer, Louisa May Alcott, Tom Clancy, Iron Chef  -- forty pages of entries

Lord of the Rings, as a Russian historical novel:
Use the link in the third paragraph to download the pdf. The "Download Now" button just takes you to the translation software.

added June 23, 2011 Some people still don't get it:

added June 29, 2011 Legos of Middle Earth
Barad Dur
The entire group

Wednesday, February 23, 2011

Mixed Species Unions

Lihan Taifun           
Cristine Wildrose   
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Shawn Daysleeper 
Squeak Barzane      

We have no record of any Dwarves (Khazad) marrying outside their race. But they are so private that we hardly hear of any marriages at all. Dwarves have a high proportion of males, and many do not marry, but we know very little about Dwarf social structures.

There are a total of 4 known Elf/Human unions:
     In Lord of the Rings, Arwen/Aragorn
     In Silmarillion, Lúthien/Beren and Idril/Tuor
     InUnfinished Tales, Mithrellas/Imrazor (first Lord of Dol Amroth, hinted at in Lord of the Rings)
In addition, an Elf maid in Menegroth was interested in Turin, but he turned her down.
In all cases, it was a female Elf and a male Human. And in the four marriages, the genetically-superior children (or genetically-superior line of descent) is an important result of the marriage.

Why do Elves ever find Humans attractive? What did Melian see in Elwë? Although there is generally a hierarchy – Ainur are “higher” than Elves, and Elves “higher” than Humans – there is some overlap.

Dwarves, being “children of Aulë” rather than “children of Eru”, don't fit onto that same hierarchy. We find it harder to imagine a romance across that divide between Ainu/Elf/Human and Dwarf. And any such romance would probably meet social disapproval from both sides. The Dwarves end up in a role of “outsiders” compared to the other races.

Looking at mixed-species pairings brings up issues of race and social status.

Professor Tolkien's attitudes may have been influenced by his Catholic background (with a strongly hierarchal world-view) and his childhood years in South Africa (where race was an important social element).

The Tolkien Reader contains a poem, 'Shadow-Bride', about an Elvish maiden held captive, but we don't remember what race her captor is.

Squeak Barzane:       If no one else has anything to say now about this, i'd like to open it up a bit: Does anyone know of any Khazad marrying outside?
AelKennyr Rhiano thinks
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm, I don't remember any record of that, but would anyone hear about it if such a marriage happened?
Squeak Barzane:       Would any outsider hear about any marriage?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I was thinking that same thing. Would it be something any one would reveal to the outside?
Lihan Taifun:            right, they are so private
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And there is the matter of how that matter would be internally perceived.
Lihan Taifun:            I can't imagine either family being pleased with the marriage
Squeak Barzane:       Men outnumber women 2:1 there, and most men don't marry at all.
Lihan Taifun:            this is true, so how would it affect the attitudes toward marrying outside?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So...either some do seek marriage outside and we don't know, or they resign themselves to bachlelorhood, or there are other forms of romantic relationships?
Squeak Barzane:       Or, the romance is between the Dwarf and his work.
Cristine Wildrose:    most likely
AelKennyr Rhiano:  that would be another form of romantic relationship :) Could some of the young males be "pushed" out of their clan into seeking something in the outside world? But surely we would know of that?
Squeak Barzane:       Cross-clan marriages probably would be a good thing.
Lihan Taifun:            cross-clan yes, but cross-species would be quite a different matter
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And surely the same demographics would not hold true in every clan? maybe they had
Lihan Taifun:            the high proportion of males? I thought that was typical of Dwarves
Squeak Barzane:       i think so. T. wasn't talking at that level of detail, i don't think.
Lihan Taifun:            it is too bad we know so little about their social structure. There are so many interesting questions.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Why was it typical? or was that Tolkien reflecting the social biases of his time?
Squeak Barzane: was driven by Windows -14, and the crashes explained all.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  hahahah
Cristine Wildrose:    lol
Lihan Taifun:            I'm imagining most Dwarves being horrified at marrying outside their species. Whereas the Humans think Elves are attractive. I've always been unsure what Elves ever saw in Humans. Wouldn't that be like deciding to marry your hamster? and then shortening your own lifespan to match?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well, then you would have to ask what the Ainur saw in elves? What would attract Melian to Elwe? Why did the Valar help the elves so much and were so fond of them? Was that like a human caring for their pet?
Lihan Taifun:            I didn't really understand Melian and Elwe

Lihan Taifun:            (We are so talkative tonight.)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  hahaha I am :P but these are thought provoking statements, you know?
Cristine Wildrose:    its been a while since I've read the books.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well...I was thinking..if you continue to follow that train of might as well ask what would the Valar care regarding the Children at all. I think I can see the attraction between Melian and Elwe.
Squeak Barzane:       Does anyone know the poems of Tom Bombadil? i recall a poem that told of an elf-maid who was captured and kept underground; allowed out one night a year. Was her captor a lone elf or a lone dwarf.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh...I would have to look that up...afraid you caught me out on that one....blushes
Cristine Wildrose:    i have it
Lihan Taifun:            oh, I don't know that one
AelKennyr Rhiano:  wooohoo, Cristine!
Lihan Taifun:            ooooh! what is the book?
Cristine Wildrose:    The Tolkien Reader
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I don't think I have that book.
Lihan Taifun:            Once I start my job at the library, I will just have to practice interlibrary loan a lot. *smiles innocently*
AelKennyr Rhiano:  heh heh for training purposes, of course
Lihan Taifun:            naturally
Shawn Daysleeper:  smiles
Lihan Taifun:            while Cristine is looking that up -- I think someone mentioned Turin had an elf who was intrested in him? although he didn't end up marrying her
Squeak Barzane:       Found it. A man and a lady 'clad in grey.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Now, am I right? The human character Turin in Tolkien's Silmarillion was in part inspired by Kullervo of the Finnish epic Kalevala.
Squeak Barzane:       It's called 'Shadow-Bride'
AelKennyr Rhiano:
Cristine Wildrose:    oh now i see it
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh...I had jotted down a website to share tonight...may I? it is germane to the discussion...for once.
Lihan Taifun:            go ahead, while they are looking up the poem
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I thought it was interesting.
Lihan Taifun:            *reading*
Shawn Daysleeper:  it is interesting that all human/elf marriage offspring were quite gifted and important in the stories. I never connected that before
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I thought the article very thought provoking.
Lihan Taifun:            yes, it is
Squeak Barzane:       i think an elf maid in Menegroth fell for Turin and was rejected.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  If you look at interracial couples another way, in comparison to classical mythology, and we know Tolkien was all about mythology..then it puts Elwe/Melian into a classical relationship....mortal/immortal pairing much reminiscent of Greek/Roman mythologies.
Lihan Taifun:            and for almost the same classical reason: to explain the unusual qualities of the offspring
AelKennyr Rhiano:  The Roman gods and goddesses were constantly taking mortal lovers...and were very sexual with humans...So why not an Ainu with an elf? If you also were to put the races into a sort of hierarchy based on either their "nearness " to Eru or to immortality...then you would see the same kind relationship between an pairing between elves (near immortals) and humans (mortals). But then if you extend that hierarchy...the dwarven would not fit ...because they are not children of Eru... they are children of Aule. And that also may be a reason we do not hear of them seeking partners outside their race.
Lihan Taifun:            and the "children of Eru" would not rate them very high on any heirarchy
AelKennyr Rhiano:  that, too, is true. There is no relationship between them and the Children at all. This would really be a case of "apples and oranges."
Lihan Taifun:            which is related to why I thought neither family would approve of a dwarf marrying outside their race one sense...perhaps Tolkien was doing something not easily recognized when you are reading the Silmarillion. Perhaps the dwarfs are Tolkien's "Children of Cain." Outside of the natural order of things...still allowed to share in Eru's creation, but also exiled from true membership with the whole of it at the same time...for a fault not of their making but due to their ancestry.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement with Lihan. Am I very farfetched?
Lihan Taifun:            I don't know whether Tolkien thought of them consciously and deliberately that way, but I think they ended up in that role
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes It is something to think about when we are looking at relationships between the races?
Squeak Barzane:       But it was given to the Dwarves to help specially in the rebuilding of Arda after the Last Battle.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes, they are not outside Eru's grace, but I think that the difference in their origins may have had an enduring effect?
Shawn Daysleeper:  Their actual role may be quite different. Maybe they are stereo typed into the lesser role we perceive of them, by other races. Unless the Song implicitly states their role
Lihan Taifun:            The Hobbit is about the only time we see Dwarves directly, rather than through other races' eyes, and that, unfortunately, is a children's story, and not very deep or detailed
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun:            were Dwarves in the Song at all?
Shawn Daysleeper:  there is Gimli, he as a singular dwarf seemed quite different from other dwarfs. maybe somehow some "elf magic" rubbed on him because of his relationship with legolas and his liking of Galadriel
AelKennyr Rhiano:  or he was a leap in dwarf evolution?
Lihan Taifun:            and perhaps he started out as a more open-minded fellow, and was thus chosen as the one to go to Elrond with a message?
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya could be
Lihan Taifun:            not a very useful leap in dwarf evolution, unless he left a wife and children back home
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ohhh, me on that one :P he was "odd?"
Shawn Daysleeper:  it does not seem like he had a family
Lihan Taifun:            he never mentioned a family -- whatever that proves
Shawn Daysleeper:  he moved to ithilien with Legolas after the war of the ring
Cristine Wildrose:    Gimli was the first and only of dwarven-kind to come to the Undying Lands.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes..that is true.
Lihan Taifun:            I was going to wonder whether he was lonely there -- but he might have gotten to meet Aule in person
AelKennyr Rhiano:  true. the more you delve into this topic, thought, the deeper and more complex the issue becomes. it is not just about pairings but also about social place, in the scheme of things, too

Squeak Barzane:       Coming back briefly to the "What did Melian see in Thingol" question, i suggest that, in power, there was overlap between Elves and Ainur. Gandalf at the top of the Mair, was awed at the skill of Feanor..
Lihan Taifun:            so the heirarchy was not as cut-and-dried as we imagine?
Squeak Barzane:       i think not. Or it was more subtle.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  they never are, really
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes. I am sorry, everyone, but I have to go to another meeting and so must leave you.

Lihan Taifun:            where were we?
Shawn Daysleeper:  social places of races, I think
Squeak Barzane:       Yes.
Lihan Taifun:            I do see people -- or maybe JRRT himself -- having that idea of the hierarchy of races, even if it wasn't so clear, in practice
Shawn Daysleeper:  yes, and unfortunately it is often defined by those in power
Squeak Barzane:       i think it may be useful to keep in mind JRRT's devout Catholicism: a version of the Christian faith that is very hierarchical.
Lihan Taifun:            could you explain?
Squeak Barzane:       laity < deacons < priests < monsignori < bishops < archbishops < ? < pope.
? includes cardinals and patriarchs. They saw 9 ranks of angelic beings.
Lihan Taifun:            would that lead to seeing everything as hierarchical?
Squeak Barzane:       Can't hurt.
Lihan Taifun:            so, perhaps he was predisposed to hierarchies
Squeak Barzane:       Being South African in early chilldhood, the racial bias may have been laid down and that is something i think only time can heal. and a desire to be healed and a lot of work.
Lihan Taifun:            hmmmm, I had forgotten that part. that would very likely affect how he thought about mixed-race marriages. and a person might not even be aware of a bias
Squeak Barzane:       Yes. Give him credit: He tried. Think of Frodo's soliloquy on the Haradrim soldiers.
Shawn Daysleeper:  right
Cristine Wildrose:    though he was only in South Africa for 3 years.
Lihan Taifun:            and his admiration of the Big Folk and Little Folk in Bree who got along so well
Squeak Barzane:       That young? Maybe he escaped. i thought he was at least 6.
Cristine Wildrose:    wikipedia could be wrong lol
Lihan Taifun:            lol, Wikipedia wrong -- imagine that!

{Several people have to leave. Farewells. The meeting breaks up without choosing a topic for next week.}

Wednesday, February 9, 2011

Groups of Elves of Middle Earth - part 2

Shawn Daysleeper       
Belenos Stormchaser  
Lihan Taifun                 
Florian Longmeadow 
AelKennyr Rhiano       
Kellinar Trevellion      
Squeak Barzane           
Koni Lanzius                

The “Nandor” were the group of Teleri who stopped before crossing the Misty Mountains (which were a lot farther inland in the First Age). Under the leadership of Lenwë, they turned south along the Great River (the Anduin). Later, in the First Age, a group of Nandor led by Denethor came over the Misty Mountains and the Blue Mountains, and lived in Ossiriand/Lindon, where they became known as the Laiquendi (“Green Elves”).

Eventually the Laiquendi merged with the Sindar, and stopped thinking of themselves as “Nandor”. (A similar situation happens today, when immigrants, after a generation or two, think of themselves as “belonging to” their new nationality.) As the Ages went on, there was more and more mixing between the original elvish clans.

Remember that, just because there is little recorded about the Teleri who didn't go to the Undying Lands (except the Sindar), we shouldn't lump them all together.

When did the Nandor stop thinking of themselves as “Teleri”?
Why did groups split off from the Teleri along the route, but not from the Vanyar and Noldor?
How did their cultures develop, after they diverged from the Elves in the main storyline? (These are presumably the ancestors of many of the elvish groups in SL.)
How did their kin in the West regard them?

Belenos Stormchaser:   I'm actually awake at the right time for once, so I thought I'd shock you all and come.. *grins*
Florian Longmeadow:  Hello May i Sit in to listen and learn?
{Arrivals and Greetings}

Lihan Taifun:                  tonight we are continuing discussing the various groups of elves in Middle Earth, and how they are related. I'm not sure where we left off last week. We had the account of the various groups who got left behind by the Teleri
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Zryonotralionxus:          Did we touch on the Nandor?
Lihan Taifun:                  we mentioned that they were one group. did you know any more about them?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        We really did not touch on them much
Lihan Taifun:                  all I really know is that they are a name on the list of groups -- would you call them "clans"?
Zryonotralionxus:          I have not been able to find much on them, also a bit more curious of if this is the group that vanished from written history? Or is that another group out of the Nandor?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        they were the Teleri who would not cross the Misty Moutains. Later, a group of them, led by Denethor went over the Blue Mountains and lived in Ossiriand.
Lihan Taifun:                  the "written history" is mostly the Silmarillion, which deals with a couple fairly limited groups of elves
Zryonotralionxus:          Hmm, what about the group that went south along the river
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Now , when they originally reached the Misty Mountains during the great Journey, and splintered off from Olwe's Teleri, they came to be under the leadership of Lenwe. They were the group that turned south along the Great River.
Zryonotralionxus:          yes
Shawn Daysleeper:        nods
Lihan Taifun:                  that would be the river Sirion?
Shawn Daysleeper:        no, the Anduin
Zryonotralionxus:          Oh, so then the rest continued over the mountains?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        After that we lose mention of them until Denthor crosses the Ered Luin into Ossiriand, to be known as Lindon and they became the Laiquendi at that point, the green elves.
Zryonotralionxus:          Ok, that makes a bit more sense and clears some things up
AelKennyr Rhiano:        It could be that Comet's Sylvan elves are descendants of the Nandor, if you think about it
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, so the Nandor are ancestors of the Laiquendi
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Lihan Taifun:                  yes, her Sylvan elves could be
AelKennyr Rhiano:        The Nandor came to call themselves Danas after their leader Dan (Lenwe in Quenya). Then later they were called the silvan elves. And if you follow their group's sketchy history, the silvans merge, over time, with the middle earth Sindars, so that silvan elves became more sindar than Nandorin and that group, Nandor, died out
Lihan Taifun:                  which gives you groups like the elves of Mirkwood?
Zryonotralionxus:          So then there would not be any surviving from that group?
Lihan Taifun:                  Laiquendi, with a certain amount of Sindar influence?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        that is where my readings have led me. But I am not a Tolkien scholar.
Lihan Taifun:                  or, Zryon, maybe that they don't think of themselves as "nandor" any more
Zryonotralionxus:          hmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:        They also mixed with Avarin Elves and Noldor. So, it could be argued that they lost their identity as a group by the end of the 1st Age.
Squeak Barzane:            One sees in the Nandor, more clearly than elsewhere, intermarriage between elves and humans.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Please, expound upon that, Squeak :))
Lihan Taifun:                  it seems like after the end of the First Age, a lot of the elves who stayed in Middle Earth were losing their old ethnic identities
Lihan Taifun:                  yes, do, Squeak
AelKennyr Rhiano listens eagerly
Squeak Barzane:            There were intermarriages, let me grab a book off my rl shelf, that didn't count in the high elf marriages.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        ok
Zryonotralionxus:          so then perhaps after first age, allot of the nandor lost contact with each other and their identities, such as family lines and such linking them back to the teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods thoughtfully.
Lihan Taifun:                  in the same way that humans nowadays don't always keep in touch with "The Old Country"
AelKennyr Rhiano:        It sure sounds that way
Zryonotralionxus:          reason I am inquisitive of this group is it is the one I thought might work best as my character "claims" to descend from, so it would be one that much record of lineage was lost and be hard to prove
Lihan Taifun:                  and in a couple of generations, they start to think of themselves as "Canadian" or "American" or Australian" or whatever
Belenos Stormchaser:   That's very valid Lihan.. if you look at all my ancestry they all come from britain, but we consider ourselves australian.. mainly because of where we live
Lihan Taifun:                  it looks like something similar was happening to the elves in Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Now that is a brilliant thought, Zyron and it suits your purposes for the rp well :)
Lihan Taifun:                  where they lived now was becoming more important than which clan they decended from, especially as groups of refugees ended up in Lindon, or Doriath, or Rivendell
Zryonotralionxus Resident nods
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Lihan Taifun:                  that would work well for your character, I think
Zryonotralionxus:          Also being he is going to have a slight fear of water or seem to be, since they mingled with the forest elves
Lihan Taifun:                  it is hard to imagine that all elves are natural mariners
AelKennyr Rhiano:        That would be rather unbelievable
Zryonotralionxus:          I believe it mentioned some where that they still had a longing for the sea
Lihan Taifun:                  that who did?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        the Nandor?
Zryonotralionxus:          the teleri that went into the mountains, I believe so, trying to find where I read that!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        oko :) AelKennyr Rhiano hears the sounds of frantic page turning !
Koni Lanzius:                 hehe
Zryonotralionxus:          uhm, PDF file =P
Koni Lanzius:                 :D
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Shhhhh...don't ruin the atmosphere! lol
Zryonotralionxus:          These were the three kindreds of the Eldalië, who passing at length into the uttermost West in the days of the Trees are called the Calaquendi, Elves of the Light. But others of the Eldar there were who set out indeed upon the westward march, but became lost upon the long road, or turned aside, or lingered on the shores of Middle-earth; and these were for the most part of the kindred of the Teleri, as is told hereafter. They dwelt by the sea or wandered in the woods and mountains of the world, yet their hearts were turned towards the West. Those Elves the Calaquendi call the Úmanyar, since they came never to the land of Aman and the Blessed Realm; but the Úmanyar and the Avari alike they call the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the Light that was before the Sun and Moon.
Lihan Taifun:                  I had the impression it was far from obvious that Legolas would develop a longing for the sea?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        As did I.
Zryonotralionxus:          hmm, that looks to be more of a summary
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I think, from our perspective, we have to be careful not to lump all the Teleri who did not go to the Undyling lands into one broadly described group because there is scant information on them.
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, very true. does "their hearts were turned toward the West" mean turned toward the Valar?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        wow...I have actually never stopped to ponder that.

Squeak Barzane:            Please excuse me; i cannot find it. i may be thinking of amroth, a single wedding that was not among the greats. From this i thought of the possibility of others. There is the the rumor that Bilbo's ancestry included 'a fairy family,' but that's hobbit talk.
BelenosStormchaser Magic chuckles.. I'm afraid I cannot contribute much tonight.. mainly listen
AelKennyr Rhiano:        oh, no that is ok )
Florian Longmeadow:  As do I just listen and I learn..
Lihan Taifun:                  at least that one marriage does suggest there might have been more, that we never hear about
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Well, I think we have to consider at what point these splinter groups that emerged in the First Age during the Great Journey stopped thinking of themselves of Teleri and started to have their own clan or group identity.
Lihan Taifun:                  they seemed to think of themselves as different from the Sindar, by the time they met the SIndar
AelKennyr Rhiano:        And why did the other two groups not have splinter groups that stayed behind as they travelled West? Or did they and I missed that.
Lihan Taifun:                  now that is an interesting question
Zryonotralionxus:          Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea, for which nonetheless they ever yearned in their hearts. Only in
Eregion, which Men called Hollin, did Elves of Noldorin race establish a lasting realm beyond the Ered Luin. That was what I was looking for!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Looking at all three groups, I would tend to wonder that the Noldor remained unified, during their Trek.
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, that is interesting, Zryon
Squeak Barzane:            Some of those attempts would have been captured by Morgoth.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes, I would think so :)
Lihan Taifun:                  I would think so, too. the elves of Ossiariand would have been another splinter group from the Teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Zryonotralionxus:          It seems so
Shawn Daysleeper:        there is also the group that refused to travel at all
Lihan Taifun:                  the Avari, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Zryonotralionxus:          and would not "establish realms" kind mean that they did not merge but created their own society within?
Lihan Taifun:                  hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:        you mean the Avari?
Squeak Barzane:            If any survived, they might have been the object of the Blue Wizards?
Lihan Taifun:                  that makes a lot of sense, and why would those groups of elves not have survived?
Zryonotralionxus:          I would think there would be a core group that would have kept together and not mingled
Lihan Taifun:                  although ... east of the Ered Luin was not so far inland, in the Third Age
Squeak Barzane:            Early on had special and early attention of Morgoth, and later of Sauron?
Lihan Taifun:                  I'm sure Sauron caused a lot more trouble than the parts we hear about
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Squeak Barzane:            He fled East, and i doubt he was idle.
Lihan Taifun:                  can't imagine him being idle!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I agree with you.
Lihan Taifun:                  the Ered Luin, in the Second and Third Ages, were on the seacoast, west of the Shire
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. We have so little to go to imagine how these groups of elves develop.
Lihan Taifun:                  the Misty Mountains are so far inland, in the First Age, they don't even show on the maps of Beleriand
Zryonotralionxus:          yes, there is large parts of their history that is not written down. I believe I seen the one map where the misty mountians were not far from Angband
Squeak Barzane:            North end, 'round Gundabad.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I think this topic is almost too big, becuase I have a million questions...
Lihan Taifun:                  what happened to everyone whose story wasn't written down?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        How did they develop differently than their kin in the West? And how did they write down their histories?
Florian Longmeadow:  Ooh... my so many things to think about!!!!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes! Did they hold onto the memory of the Valar and Eru? Did those beings become translated into gods?
Zryonotralionxus:          I do believe opening one door leads to many more in this case lol
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes, I think so.
Florian Longmeadow:  For sure!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        And how does their Kin in the West perceive them? Do we grow complacent? Condescending? Detached? There is so much to consider.
Lihan Taifun:                  We know of a couple of cases of Eldar leaders taking over the leadership of Laiquendi tribes; did the opposite ever happen? did a Laiquendi leader ever take over a largely Eldar tribe?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I honestly don't know.
Squeak Barzane:            i can, with major oops, take Amroth off the table. Nimrodel, whom he loved, was am elf.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        oh... :) is ok :))

AelKennyr Rhiano:        Should we pick a topic for next week?
Lihan Taifun:                  but Prince Imrahil was said to have some elvish in his ancestry
AelKennyr Rhiano:        but how? Through what bloodline?
Lihan Taifun:                  I thought that might be the one Squeak was thinking of
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Is it, Squeak?
Squeak Barzane:            There is, somewhere, the idea of nandor marrying humans. The Princes of Dol Amroth were Numenorian, and Elven blood was there.
Squeak Barzane:            This wasn't the reference i was thinking of, and i'm inclined to shut up for a whiule on that topic.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Oooh...perhaps we could pursue that for next week's discussion, the mingling of the children of Illuvatar?
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, there is a thought!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        :)
Zryonotralionxus:          yay for mingling!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        What do you all think?
Koni Lanzius:                 hehe sure
Squeak Barzane:            Topic might be too broad.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        it kinda fits the Valentine's holiday theme? How should we narrow it down?
Koni Lanzius:                 ~**smiles**~
Zryonotralionxus:          this is true
Squeak Barzane:            At the waist?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        hahahah
Lihan Taifun:                  there are the four well-known human-elf pairings
AelKennyr Rhiano:        We could start there?
Lihan Taifun:                  and then the question of whether those where the only ones
Zryonotralionxus:          I would think there where many others, especially with the nandor
AelKennyr Rhiano:        nod nod nod
Squeak Barzane:            And the near miss. Turin was pursued by an elf-maid and turned her down.
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, I didn't remember that!
Squeak Barzane:            Children of Hurin, page something.
Lihan Taifun:                  so, do we want to discuss these next week?
Zryonotralionxus:          Kind of like in modern times, you have groups that stick together in another society, yet many of those in the group also mingle in that society as well
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Koni Lanzius:                 ~**smiles**~
Zryonotralionxus:          I have not gotten to reading that book, Children of Hurin, yet
Squeak Barzane:            For later, what do we know of my favorites, the Khazad? (Yes, i shaved before coming over.)
AelKennyr Rhiano:        hahah. how about the parings we know about?
Lihan Taifun:                  ok, we can put them on the list for a future week
AelKennyr Rhiano:        woohoo
Squeak Barzane:            We can follow the pairings we know about with the pairings we know nothing about. Fair and balanced, that's my motto!