This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

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Wednesday, October 28, 2009

Romance, Sex, and Marriage Among the Elves

Recommended Reading:  Essays which quote extensively from Professor Tolkien's essay "Laws and Customs of the Eldar"
What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex
and the drier, more scholarly Warm Beds are Good:  Sex and Libido in Tolkien's Writing
Why & How NOT To Write A Middle-earth Romance
          (The first part of this essay is how to avoid writing bad love scenes; the second part is background on what is known of Elvish customs.)

Tolkien Discussion Group
October 28, 2009
Topic: Romance, Sex, and Marriage Among the Elves

Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
Veovis Nightfire
Keema Silverspar
Ossy Portocarrero

I believe Belenos will be unable to attend tonight
that's too bad
will miss her - she also has insights hehe

did everyone get a chance to read the links?
actually, no. work has been running me into the ground lately.
oh dear, I hope you get a chance to read them later, someone has done a lot of research
i will at my earliest convenience.
those who did read it, did anything in particular strike you?
hmmm, maybe not ...
what I noticed was how very strictly monogamous the elves were
I read it, but we can start with a more directed question?
there was a distinction made between regular elves and Tolkien elves - not much detail but found it interesting that the diference was noted
hmmm, I didn't notice that about "regular elves" and Tolkien elves
yes, and the history of the noldor is quite indicative of how monogamous they were. feanor was furious at finwe's marrying of the lady indis after miriel, his mother, died.
yes, and after that, the elves really avoided second marriages
it appears that once married - it was for life; forever - until the world ended
for life, and no remarrying if you spouse died
Wait, I don't agree.
not after the way Finwe's second marriage turned out
Take Olwe.
ok, what about Olwe?
In the Silmarillion...he obviously has a daughter. But we never hear of his wife again. It is never mentioned that she lived with him in Tol Eressea or in Alqualonde in the Silmarillion. She was a convenient "plot device" to explain Earwen.
There is no mention of love, or even, really, of marriage.
so what do we conclude from that?
tolkien had a marked tendency to discount the role of wives, unfortunetaly. females in general, other than galadriel.
Tolkien, himself, came from an historical context where married couples were expected to stay together, even if the romance died from their marriage.
although he does mention that elves didn't mind spending time apart
yet in the essay it mentioned that the sexes were equal among elves
Yes, he did. I believe it is rather patriarchal to assume that once married, always partnered. But the reality in Tolkien is that they were not. Not always. Look at the archetypes in the elves. How many strong female elves are there?
not all that many. galadriel, maybe aredhel.
most are mentioned with "attributes"....silver hair for Earwen, for example.
Even Galadriel, a stong character, how is she presented?
exceedingly beautiful, as i recall.
She is "wise" for not seizing the ring...she knows her weakness.
and wise.
As long as elves live, can we expect their partnerships to not change over time?
and yet Tolkien explicitly says they do not change over time, which does seem hard for humans to believe
may i include an excerpt?
Normal Elves And The Ones Tolkien Wrote About

Tolkien in LACE says that elves normally married young, in their early adulthood, which would have been at 50 to 100 years old. He says that this is normal for elves and that elves who did otherwise had "strange fates." (LACE) He then goes on to present us with large amounts of elf characters who marry late in life (Galadriel, Elrond, Idril, Lúthien, Aredhel, Eöl, Thingol) or not at all (Legolas, Finrod, half the sons of Fëanor) or whose marital status is vague and unknown (Glorfindel, Gil-Galad). Fëanor is the best example of this happy early marriage. But then, he had an exceptional amount of kids (seven). And his wife left him. (Shibboleth of Fëanor, Peoples of Middle-Earth, HME) Possibly the elvish upper classes, who Tolkien wrote about almost exclusively, delayed marriage for sociopolitical reasons. (1)
so, see, Tolkien contradicted himself...which is not surprising when a writer creates such a expansive universe.
certainly. it's too hard not to.
do you think his theoretical ideas about elvish lives were not consistant with the characters he wrote?
I do
because the "theory" clashed with the practiciality of creating the stories within tht universe
he seemed to have a block about writing female characters
It is possible that the ideas evolved as the characters did
I'm sure his ideas evolved a lot over, what, 40 years? maybe more, that he was writing, or thinking about the universe
and he was expressing his ideals
the practicallities?
when you are trying to take this idea about elves marrying for life and never changing their feelings about each other...and then you as a writer are trying to create storylines, plot twists, character development...Well, that concept of always married and never feeling different... that can hamper things Does that make sense?
(not that much character development)
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. but still..if, for example...Keema never changes her feelings for ....let's say Veovis, and they are married... who do we create a character we care about? She is rather static.... How do we become involved with her ...because we as humans change?
beware of projecting our human ways of feeling onto the elves.
True, Fifi, but then again...the reader IS human.
and if the reader cannot identify...then the reader won't read.
Keema Silverspar blinks at Lord AelKennyr
Sorry, Keema...I was just making and example.AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
if an elf's feelings changed, that might be tragic, and he or she still would have strong social pressure
to not remarry
I am not saying all this is in stone...but it helps to look at his work from the prospective of the crafting of writing?
yes - a 'static' character is not sympathic
part of the crafting of writing is to find the interesting points of tension, within the framework established
those might not be the same points of tension as in our universe
we need the tension and the conflict and the climax of the conflict
As the years pass, what in the society changes, what is accepted today , that may not have been accepted 50 or 100 years ago
the concept of the nuclear family for one
although with elves, that might be "50,000 or 100,000 years"
what are the years in elven for societal change
acceptance of nontraditional pairings
generations, so to speak
do we know any examples of social change?
it seems like the idea of no remarrying came from the conflict between the half-brothers in Finwe's household, so that was a social decision
And i would have to ask if that would have extended out through all the elven clans. Would the Teleri have adopted that social change, for example?
and, you know, the Sindar would not have been around to even know about that decision
not sure if that was as a result of that marriage, or the taboo against it already existed, and finwe just went against it.
one of the essay's commented that Tolien wrote mainly about the upper class Eldar, so there may have been difference among the 'regular' elves
We must remember the different elven socieities did not live in a vaccuum...they would have developed their own mores and social practices.
That is hinted at in the Kinslaying.
hinted at the kinslaying that there were differnces between the Teleri and the Noldor?
yes in the perspectives and reactions between the two ... and those cultures would have developed differently over time
and, as Fifi said, we don't have many stories of regular working-class elves
yeah, that's true. you don't really hear about how the "rank and file" elves lived their lives.
there must have been farmers or food -gatherers or something,but we never hear about it
It doesn't help us that married couples who figure predominantly in Tolkien's tend to "vanish" as they serve their literary need. Take Earwen....She is a Teleri...who does she marry?
meaning the wives vanished?
yes. i always found it interesting that lady anairë chooses to stay behind in tirion with earwen, while fingolfin goes off to middle-earth, and his sister, irimë, goes with him. what's up with that?
(( hmmm, I wonder))
wedding feast, marked mainly by who attended ... followed an appropriate time later by the birth of a kid ... fast forward to kid being an adult
So we are left with large gaps
gaps in the details of people's actual lives
The gaps are left to the imagination
And are we certain that when an elven couple marry, it is always for love?
i would guess political associations might be involved, but that's more of a human aspect to royal marriage.
well, aside from that , there could be parental pressure
I can't imagine elves marrying someone they really disliked
not dislike, just not burning passion.
none are forced to marry
yeah, i tend to agree with that. they don't seem the type to accept being forced into anything.
All of us know there are ways of exerting societal pressure without being "forced" though
although, elves being immortal, there would be a lot less pressure about "producing an heir", "carrying on the line"
Tolkien says the reason for marriage is the union of bodies and then the children
I don't agree....yes, that was where I was going
very much so
and after that period is done - however long - they then go on to other things :))
basically explore their sexual nature and then move on
it never really mattered whether Olwe had an heir or not, did it?
If Olwe died, what would happened to the Teleri?
well, someone would take over as leader
but who? after all they had been through...without an heir...think of it.
And Veovis, I would submit that in playing your character, don't you feel a wee bit of pressure to secure your partner?
well, considering i hav a hard time keeping them in tirion, i suppose so. i'm on my third anairë now.
lol, not quite the way Tolkien wrote that
so, why do your feel the need for Anaire? AelKennyr Rhiano blushes Wait, that was not quite how I wanted to say that.
how else will there be a fingon, turgon and aredhel?
lol, same as Tolkien
so it is not about romance, and there is a pressure
would you like another excerpt?
oh, yes :)))
In fact, the formal celebrations and legal aspects which we think of as constituting marriage are completely irrelevant to the Eldar: they like having the parties, and the presents, and giving each other jewelry they've made (as well as spouses exchanging rings, the parents of bride and groom give their new son and daughter ornaments, which as Christopher Tolkien points out casts a new light on foresighted Galadriel giving Aragorn a gem in Lórien)-- but none of this is necessary, though it's considered civilized behaviour. What makes the marriage is the personal promise and the physical consummation, not the societal aspects. And they don't rape, or the euphemism beloved of the authors of bodice-rippers, "forced seduction" — "for this was wholly against their nature."
that certainly implies that it is usually the principals, and not their parents, arranging the marriage
Only amoungst other royals?
what do you mean, Keema?
What if a basket weaver slipped in, Tolkien gives little history to the women, would that not cause a small problem?
there are comments on elves 'on the run' together (not escaping, but exploring, traveling who spontaneous decide to wed - it is only them, alone, together)
also...this still does not mean that the marriage is totally free of any external influences...just delineates how the ritual is accomplished.
well, there is, i believe, one case where a relationship was not considered desirable by a parent, that being beren and luthien. Thingol was out of his mind over it.
they eloped!
I like what Keema said earlier... [08:04 PM] Keema Silverspar: What if a basket weaver slipped in, Tolkien gives little history to the women, would that not cause a small problem?
they eloped, and depending on how you read some of the vague comments, they may have been privately "married" a long time before Thingol realized it
rofl possible

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes...I have a question... What if both elves are the same sex?
a situation Tolkien never comments on
as in happy elves?? :D
depends on if they get to marry?
well, it sounds like, once they have gone off into the bushes together, it would be hard to claim they were not married
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Keema Silverspar looks around for the bushes
Keema Silverspar laughs
Keema Silverspar wipes sweat from her forehead, No bushes
you naughty girl, you!
Would that partnershp be recognized ? It will produce no children. How strong was the need to produce heirs?
remeber he was Catholic
Tolkien was of the sex = procreation school
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
marriage = sex = procreation
you may like this, Ael
. . . . The most suggestive elf/elf pair are Fingon* and Maedhros, rescuing each other and sending each other presents just because. (Narn i Hîn Húrin, UF) But even they have less eyebrow-raising stuff going on in 500 years than Sam and Frodo managed to pack into one day.

Although Tolkien never said that the elves DID have hot gay sex, he also never said that they DIDN'T. And I know what I make of that.

One last perplexing note from LACE is that Elves do not change sex, even if they are being reincarnated. But that's a whole other story. be honest...several months ago, in a group chat I was viciously criticized for not taking a rp queen and immediately producing rp children.
wow :(
and I've seen writers make good cases for both interpretations of Frodo/Sam relationship
but sam implied he liked a female hobbit. of course, he could've been bi?
but they weren't elves
Sam MARRIED a female hobbit
so to speak, she could have been his beard.
Lihan Taifun glares at Ael
elves don't have beards - one exception, I believe
my point here is that even we, rping Tolkien..even we can be suspectible to this need for procreation.
well, susceptible certainly in the sense that some of the sim stewards might like to see the story line progressing.
and in the feeling of "expectations", you are "expected" to
I guess what we are dancing around is...what really IS the elvish way...not just what Tolkien stated, but what is presented in his works.
that is not the elvish way
maybe so. heck, at one point, i was thinking that our version of fingolfin was going to be a bachelor.
then the people scheduled to be Fingolfin's children would be in a hard spot
yes, but so far, none have appeared who could likely play the roles well, at least not in tirion.
ah, that takes off some of the pressure, for the time being
lol, and as long as feanor and nerdanel's wedding keeps getting postponed, so does fingolfin's.
the first born marries first. he is the high prince of tirion.
wait, is that true?
is that a specificially Noldor custom?
Keema Silverspar watches Veovis wipe the sweat from his brow
in tirion it is.
for that sounds like a human mediveal convention to me
well, that's sheri's rule atm.
and yes, it definitely sounds medieval.
I don't know of anywhere in Tolkien that is an elven convention.

I am getting some im traffic that my presence is requested in tirion.
glad you could come
It was great you were here
"Lótesse i cala of ngolwe,ngóle,saila" hirta,tulya" le" (May the light of wisdom guide you)
safe paths
fair winds
May fair winds fill your sails

Ossy Portocarrero sighs "I was very late"
it is ok, we were just talking about love and sex; AelKennyr Rhiano winks at Lihan and Fifi
yes, we were :-) and marriage
and annoying parents who want heirs
and happy elves :))
Gay one might say :D in the purest sense of the word
Why is the theme from Married with Children playing in my head?
I was thinking Seven Brides for Seven Brothers
thats a good one too, but it wasnt in my head
I'm pure ... sometimes
of course
when I am asleep... or drugged ... comatose
oh those happy elves*
um, don't ask Nienna about that stuff
one of the two unmarried Valar

uh oh, Fifi is in charge of ocean winds
either you two cooperate, or you fight ALL THE TIME
I was just imagining that conversation the other day, didn't know it was you, though, Fifi
I'm all for cooperation
I didn't remember which wind you were, we really need something for the Ainur to do
but you knew it was some hot air lol
cool air, I would think, nice sea breeze
well, yes; breeze or typhoon, friend of sailors or not
Osse's enabler
Heh, Not that I'd ever admit it
that's what keeeps it interesting - always changing, air and water
it's not your fault the charming maiar all want to help you ...
did i say i wanted to help??
"cooperate" you said
perhaps it isn't persona; well - cooperation over the other - but mostly like to just blow around the world, no particular outcome in mind
plenty of room to run, on the open ocean
gotta have that!
maiar wind races!
and sometomes the wind blows inland a bit to the streams
or lakes
all fresh water

were we still discussing sex? or did we give up on that?
is Kath ready to discuss hobbits yet?
hobbits! hairy toes! pie!
hahahaha, sex lives of hobbits, euuuu, lol
hobbits are probably too much like humans
what about dragons?
yes, dragons, cool
thinking of Belenos - she will have stuff to say
yes, should be lively
so we have Belanos, but what was the alledged topic?
Lihan, is there some area to look at re: dragons and Tolkien - I know there isn't much
dragons in tolkien's world
is there more than just whats is name
more than one dragon?
Belanos would know
or - there is more to be said on Eldar sexual practices :D
well, I am sure there is
yes - smaug - a poor role model
dragons were poor role models
yes...but a lot point to him as the definitive role model
or perhaps maligned - one must consider the source
there was the dragon Hurin met, and one at the destruction of Gondolin, so, several dragons we know something about
sounds like our next topic.
ok, sounds like it

(1) Editor's note: LACE = "Laws and Customs of the Eldar", an essay by Professor Tolkien; HME = "History of Middle Earth", a collection of Professor Tolkien's notes, published after his death

Wednesday, October 21, 2009


October 21, 2009
Topic: Dwarves
BelenosStormchaser Magic
Lihan Taifun
Fifi Wickentower
AelKennyr Rhiano
Tuatha Shippe
InyaRay Oktomica

mmm... Fein would come but it's too close to the time she must leave for work

If Ossy were here, he could tell us his version of the story of the creation of the dwarves
And I see you are our demo model dwarf tonight lihan.. :D
He has a different version?
Same basic story, just "as told by Ossy", which comes out even earthier than Tolkien's version
BelenosStormchaser Magic snickers.. yes, I can well imagine
I would post it on the website, but by the time it was censored to PG words, there would be nothing left.
[18:01] Ossy Portocarrero: I am going to play the Ainur Maia Osse
[18:01] Ossy Portocarrero: But the Ainur often went in disguise... so this is my "I'm just an elf fisherman" disguise
[18:01] Ossy Portocarrero: ... Ainur is the 'demi-god' or 'angel' race created by Illuvatar
[18:02] Ossy Portocarrero: Valar are the high powered ones, that control large domains of Ea.
[18:02] Ossy Portocarrero: Maiar are their assistants...
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: The trick to tolkien is..
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: Everyone has 1289123971371234 names
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: THATS why it gets confusing, right?
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: So.. Ea is earth.
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: Which seems to be flat.
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: Like playing Sim City
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: It's just a big block of dirt.
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: ok So, Illuvatar (God) created
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: his first peoples
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: They are the angels, his assistants.
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: He created them from his song.
BelenosStormchaser Magic: lol.. yes.. is rather disjointed when PG..
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: They are all in effect small parts of himself.
[18:06] Ossy Portocarrero: each of them drawing from a small aspect of himself.
[18:06] Ossy Portocarrero: Are you at all aware of the Bible's version of Creation?
[18:06] Ossy Portocarrero: You know.. God... let there be light, etc?
shhhhh, he's telling the story
actually the funny part is when he talks about Olwe and Elu
ohhh.. do tell
ok Olwe and Elu according to Ossy
[20:11] Ossy Portocarrero: so... the elves were in Middle Earth
[20:11] Ossy Portocarrero: and the Hunter (Valar) was running around and saw them and persuaded them after much doing, to go to Valimar or whatever it is where the Ainur live
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: and so three of the several kingdoms went
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: Elwe and Olwe for one... and two others
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: And theyre running around and going "oooh" and "Ahhhh" new stuff!
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: Loving it!
[20:13] Ossy Portocarrero: but the Teleri see the sea and go HOLY #### THIS IS AWESOME
[20:13] Ossy Portocarrero: and they want to stay there
[20:13] Ossy Portocarrero: So they're on the east plains of the Belenriad or something... yes.. that
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: So... they stay kinda east, for a bit, because they are the most unsure of the groups about going.
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: And they're hanging out, doing their thang...
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: The other two groups make it to the sea
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: When this happens... Elwe decides he wants to go back to see the Splendor of Valimar... and to see the other people who were there whom he kisses.
LOL... omg.. it's so like how fox would tell it
[20:15] Ossy Portocarrero: So he strides off into the woods.
[20:15] Ossy Portocarrero: he apparently does this ALL THE TIME
[20:15] Ossy Portocarrero: But..
[20:16] Ossy Portocarrero: The Maia Melian (who is like Vayanna) is All. About. Song. When she's in Lorien singing people literally drop EVERYTHING to go listen to her... gawking with their jaws on the floor.. I mean EVERYONE. Animals, People, Other Ainur! They just RUN over and listen to her singing.
[20:17] Ossy Portocarrero: So.. all the nightingales flap after her when she wanders into the woods
[20:17] Ossy Portocarrero: shes teaching them bird song.. and tra-la-laing.. (A la Disney's Sleeping Beauty)
[20:17] Ossy Portocarrero: right?
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: SO
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: shes walking around, with these birds fluttering around her
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: all of them singing away like it's normal
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: so...
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: Elwe hears her singing right?
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: And does the stupid 'gawk' thing and just walks towards the noise... COMPLETELY FORGETTING EVERYTHING ELSE HE HAS EVER THOUGHT ABOUT
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: I mean, his PEOPLE, his LAND, visting the OTHER ELVES... VALIMAR
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: every. ▄######▄. thing.
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: When he gets to where she is, singing away.. he can't even TALK to her.
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: He gets totally dumbstruck. He watches her sing for a bit.. and then she notices him
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: their eyes meet
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: Romantic music plays
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: They walk towards each other, hands outstretched. (Slo-mo)
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: They touch... hands clasped together
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: and they just stand, like that... for oh.. years.
hmm.. sounds like elwe had the concentration span of a gnat... :D
not all elves...just my brother >.<
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: Trees and plants grow, animals come and go... pee at their feet.. they're like ▄▄▄▄▄ statues.
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: Meanwhile.. EVERYONE freaks out.
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: OMG WHERE IS ELWE, HOLY #### ..> WHAT HAPPENED?1
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: WE CAN'T \GO\ anywhere!! ELWE IS MISSING!
*wonders if it runs in the family* LOL.. this is so funny
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: so they all start looking for him all over... no one can find him
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: NO ONE
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: CAN
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: FIND
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: HIM
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: ###### bastard!
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: so...
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: while theyre all in the woods, holding hands
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: the other elves are at the sea
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: And the Hunter calls Ulmo and is all like "Hey yo wazzup mah man... can you like help us get to Valimar, dude?"
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: and the elves are all afraid
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: these elves are afraid ALL THE ###### TIME MAN
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: everything freaks them out, #### YOU MELKOR I HATE YOUR FACE
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: So while everyone is looking for Elwe
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: Ulmo uses his horns and sea music
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: and the elves calm down
wimpy elves..
It was Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: then he grabs an island that's just sitting there because of the big battle with melkor
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: and UPROOTS IT
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: and uses it like a Boat (fog horn)
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: he drags it over, everyone climbs on.. and they head off toValimar.
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: The Teleri are way the #### over THERE
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: so they don't hear the horns til its too late!
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: and they're all worried about Elwe!
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: Some people are like "#### this noise, we are NOT going anywhere til we find Elwe"
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: they then drop from history... and are called 'The Forgotten"
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: HOW DEPRESSING IS THAT?!
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: ANYWAY we get to them a little later
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: SO... You grab the rest of them... and go back to the sea... where the other people used to be...
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: meanwhile, the island that they get transported with just floats around, which is where I spent most of my time
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: BECAUSE YOU SEE
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: Middle earth Shores is MY DOMAIN
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: so that's where I'm stuck
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: I can't 'GO" to #### VALIMAR
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: *coughs*
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: So you hang out... in Alqualonde... the city by the sea.. where you moan and cry and whine that they left you behind, wah!
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: And you live there for a while.. doing your shite
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and me and my ball and chain come over
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: Me: Oh Hey guys, It's Me... Osse...
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: ok Tol Elessea
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: thats what its called, shut up and listen
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: So you're all living there and I come by with the missus and an upside down pineapple cake
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: and were all like "We're cool guys, welcome to the neighborhood.. would you like to learn some sea songs and sea-stories?"
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: And you guys are all like "Yeah, come on in, wipe your feet, nice to have you"
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: and we are all jolly ###### for ages.
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: So... then after a while Ulmo gets off his ass, after you've been calling him to fix the cable for like ever...
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and he's all like "so you want to get to Valimar? Yeah ok.. I can get the ferry" and goes off to get the island
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and I get all peeved cuz you guys are my only friends :(
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and if you go to Valimar I CAN'T SEE YOU
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: so I get into a hissy.. and I'm all like "Dude, Ulmo.. these youngins don't want to GO to valimar.. they'd much rather hang out with me!" but you're already on the island half way there by this point
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: so he's all like "Yeah, I knew that.. I just wanted them to admit, it Foo!"
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: so we root the island into place.. and you guys lived on the island.. and the people in valimar were like "Holy ####, are they EVER gonna get here! #### them!"
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: and we all hung out having beach parties at the island for like ever.
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: So... then Melina or whatever and Elwe WAKE UP
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: And he looks like a Maia now..
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: long silver hair, super tall... awesome powers!
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: OoOoOoOooo etc
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and they start having #### babies... who are the most beautiful babies in Ea EVER
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: And then the Forgotten ones are all like "oh hey, Elwe, THERE YOU ARE... phew! that took years, GLAD WE FOUND YA BUDDY... wanna be king now?"
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: so.. he's their king.. with Melina and their pretty babies.
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and that's why you're king and he isn't
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero stops, panting for breath.
apologies for language
good thing Peacekeeper Lihan isn'there
hhh, trust me, it would not have been teh same without the embelishments of Ossy
I was hoping he would tell his vision at his interview with Phoenix
to PHOENIX? might get him banned
now that would have been interesting
he didn't
no sense of adventure

yes please
oops sorry AelKennyr Rhiano slinks down in his chair
not at all Ael.. it was a funny tale and had to be heard
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Can you find the chapter about the dwarves?
There was a chapter?
There IS a chapter in the SIlmarillion, but I meant Ossy's passage about them, which is in the middle of the one Ael started with
I think I was too busy wiping tears of laughter out of my eyes to notice
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: So.. the craftsman Aule is making mountains.. and living underground.. and making gems and gold and trinkets or whatever
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and he's all like "I want to make people too so that the Children have company!"
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and he makes the dwarves...
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and very much like God told So and So, go sacrifice your kid for me... that kind of thing happens
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: WHAT AREY OU DOING says God
[18:27] Ossy Portocarrero: and then the craftsman.. whose name I can't ###### remember goes
[18:27] Ossy Portocarrero: oh... em.. gee.. like I was just doing it to be like you! I wasn't trying to like say I was better than you god! *but not in a valley girl voice, actually sorrowful* and if like.. this is wrong, I'm sorry. Here, you can have them! Or.. better yet.. I WILL KILL THEM WITH THIS HUGE ##### HAMMER *Sob*
[18:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and god says "Can't you see? Theyre just animatons you control with your mind, theyre not alive like MY creations! But you were HUMBLE so.. ok Ill let them live, and let them be self-motivated... but they have to go to sleep until MY creations are born! And they will have a lot of war with my creations because they are superior... SLEEP NOW!"
[18:28] Ossy Portocarrero: so they do. xD
[18:29] Ossy Portocarrero: So.... they sleep.. for like, ever.
[18:29] Ossy Portocarrero: And then that guy talks to the Yavanna, the 'life' creator... and he's all like 'what should I do? should I tell anyone?'
[18:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and she's like "no, but you shoulda told me first, that you were making them! but because you didn't... they're gonna live in caves and not gonna give a #### about MY creations.. and they're gonna kill a lot of trees... MAN that makes me sad!"
[18:30] Ossy Portocarrero: so she goes crying to Manwe who is the ruler of the Ainur because he lives in a tower and can talk to Illuvatar.
[18:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and manwe is all like "don't worry... we have to let the children do what they can with stuff... it will be ok, we made this place for them, you know!"
BelenosStormchaser Magic: omg.. when does he tell these stories? I gots to listen in more!
hahahah We need a tolkien bardic
Sign me up too
Arda should have a theater
Maybe an r-rated theatre if ossy performs there, but yes, a theatre.. :D
triple XXX
But was that the passage, Lihan?
yes, that one. About how the dwarves were created by Aule, not by Eru like the rest of the races
Created, but not given life by him
true; sort of "adopted Children of Eru"
What gets me is, why did he make them so small and nugggety......and.. hairy?
hahahaha . . . . earthy
I think he was going for "tough and strong"
and bounceable?
Aule figured Melkor was going to give them a hard time
Shiny things com from dwarves, Bel ^^
not sure Aule was counting on the dragons, exactly
yes I know... :)
We weren't counting on elves, either :)
Or, well, your ancestors were still working for Melkor at the time
Well I suppose though, if they were going to work in mines etc, it's not exactly the place for tall beings
Hair is an insulater
True.. but it does gather dirt rather well
Not only are dwarves physically strong, they are remarkably strong in spirit
Is that a nice way of saying stubborn?
Sauron was disappointed on how poorly Rings of Power worked on dwarves
Yes I was wondering about that... I watched the three LOTR movies on the weekend.. and wondered what happened to the dwarves with them?
Sauron could nudge the dwarf kings into doing self-destructive things, but he never enslaved them, like he did with the Nazgul."Nudge" as in encouraging them to be more violent, or more greedy, or such
Why do you think that was? Does that mean that a being made by Aule was better than a being made by Eru?
Or that the dwarves don't have the same height of spirit as the elves or humans?
How can one judge this?
Would that be refelected inphysical sature?
I don't think any of the dwarves were ever as "great" as the best of elves or humans
Lihan Taifun: *pokes Fifi*
would have thought that resisting Sauron's influence was actully something that showed them to be strong...Exactly how did they manage to resist him?
I agree; good question
AelKennyr Rhiano puffs out his chest a little
You were puffing out your chest, I thought you were going to speak
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes...I was thinking about the 'great' remark.
Lihan Taifun rolls her eyes
distracted? easily? *nods runs in the family
hehe.. I think you are right there Fifi
Does not...oh, look, pretty stars.
It does seem like dwarves just can't be enslaved
Why can't they?
Come to think of it I've never heard of a dwarf as a slave.. ever
They will fight to the death. Humans frequently won't.
They are so of the earth, it would take a super force to budge them . . . quake or such
What about elves? We make lousy slaves
true. I wonder how Melkor ever enslaved any elves, either. You wouldn't think that would work
Let alone maiar?
Its honor, i think...yes,pride too
yes, I wasn't thinking bad pride.. like vanity.. but good pride.. in who they are
Salt ofthe earth
Dwarves do seem to have a good dose of both the bad and the good pride, which might not be so different.
Maybe it is because dwarves have thick skulls?
BelenosStormchaser Magic stiffles a snicker
Fifi Wickentower: *looks at the esteemed dwarf next to her I mean... they are built sturdier.
So less penetrates their skulls?
Some have been called stubborn
If we are going to make cheap jokes at the expense of dwarves, we might as well invite Peter Jackson, eh?
I really wasn't trying to, Lihan...I meant that they were built solid. Literally, thicker skulls...tougher bodies.
See that's just it.. there are two stereotypes of dwarves I have in my head..... the sort like Peter Jackson portrayed.....
But stubborn is just when you don't do what OTHER ppl want
loyalty to the death..
and another sort.... proud and strong.. stubborn... but loyal..
Dwarves certainly don't seem to care much what other people want
They do if its their ancestors
Also, do they mingle well with other races?
They don't look to others for approval or validation
Perhaps that is their strength... Aule built into them a completeness ... in what they do, where they lives and how they live.. What need to they have for more?
They were created out of the very subsatnce of the world

Hello, Inya
Greetings, my lady
We were just discussing what makes dwarves so resistant to Sauron's power
I mean, when you think of a dwarf, what need to they have to bother themselves with affairs above ground? With what happens with elves, or men?
Their Wills, innate strength, pride, loyalty, stubborness
But didnt' elves or men also have these things? ... especially men ... ?
Dwarves seem more concentrated
I wonder if that is related to Aule making them all by himself, and not consulting the other Ainur? so the dwarves only care about the things Aule cares about?
depending on their 'alignment', stubborn is key of their continuity
Are humans and elves so stubborn?
That is quite possible too..
I wonder what Illuvitar thought of that..
Elves are really INTERESTED in other kinds of creatures ... Elves go around teaching all the other creatures to talk, or trying to teach them
Only because they can't speak other languages
So it's where their focus is, you think?
Which is fine with me...elves can be a bit nosy, too
I think it might be their focus, yes
Good they arent telepathic...for the most part
For the most part? I didn't think they were at all
Well...the ocassional Mage might have this ability
I agree with Tuatha -- a few elven Mages learned it
wow.. this I did not know
That is from Tolkien's notes and letters, not Silmarillion, I think. How else would the Palantir work, though?
ahhh.. and you know, speaking of dwarves, that's something else I've not heard anything of.. dwarf mages.. did they have any?
good question
hmmm, I've never heard of any
but they must, dont you think?
Although, the dwarves would think of it as "technology", wouldn't they?
a teacher of 'sage' proportions
Elves thought of their "magic" as a technology, too
Fox is telling me that dwarves didn't like magic.. they prefered earthier means of dealing with thigns
Maybe it depends on what you consider "magic"?
They could feel the subtle changes in vibration in the earth, normal to them
yes, that is true too
'hands on' ....if you can touch it, smell it, see it, etc... <very Taurian>
like a sailor knows the sea
Dwarves could work mithril, which no one else could. Shat might seem like "magic" to other races.
Whereas the elves considered that their rope, and their cloaks, were just nicely made technology, and not really "magical"
So it's all race perspective
Seems like it
But unknown science does seem magical
this is so :)
Almost like each race were given their own gifts
(SL seems magic to me lol)
Whoever made the palantiri, I'm sure thought of them as "technology" rather than "magic"
Would one say dwarves are earth, ainur air?
determination, positive stubborn, makes great builders
Aule is a ainu, and he is earth
each ainur represents an element
I am a wind. But the race in general?
Dwarves are definitely earth, though
and elves? Some are water - Teleri
aye...and Elves can be earth or water
or fire. Feanor was definitely fire
some are earth
Elves and humans are more balanced than dwarves
One doesn't think of water and dwarves, or air
less bi-polar? I mean..dwarves have more mood swings? than elves and humans?
Dwarves have mood swings?
Than an elf?????
lol.. no.. I think she means more balanced in their element
When you say 'more balanced'...elves and humans are
I don't think she was talking mentally
I meant elves and humans have a bit of all the elements, being designed by Eru
oh i it
Dwarves are very comfortable with earth and fire
They didn't have the 'whole' from inception - only Eru could bestow that
Whereas the dwarves were designed by Aule, so they are more ... onesided
from his element?
So...theyre alittle

You are going to have to excuse me Fair Ladies.. It is late for me and I can no longer hold my eyes open. I regret leaving such an interesting discussion, but I really must log off..
This has been most thought provoking today
I hope if they ever make the movie of The Hobbit, it will show more of the dwarves side of the story. The dwarves really got shortchanged in the Lord of the Rings movies being in an actors studio...deep character analysis
the movies focused so much on battle
just appreciate your knowledge
And the movies were from the human and elvish point of view

Do we have a subject next?
oh, do we? Kath was going to do hobbits sometime, but she wasn't sure when she would be free
That would be fine
But I don't know if that will be next week
After Halloween...she's doing an event for it
Are we meeting next Wed?
Sometime I want to find the link to "Everything Tolkien wrote about sex". A lot there about elves and their attitudes toward marriage
Lihan...that would be so intriguing
So if I can find the link, do you want to do that next week?
Sure to make Ael a little nervous
I've not heard of Ainu having children together
blushes and gushes Ael
I like to make him nervous *looks around, snickering to see if he came back
He's so much fun to tease
Hehe - the worst is - I've picked it up and find 'blushes' to be quite handy at times
Well...I'm game for more,Lihan
You would think Ael would be permenently pink by now
I will try to send out the link in advance so people can read it before the meeting