This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

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Wednesday, October 7, 2009

Groups of Elves

October 7, 2009
Topic: Groups of the Elves

Class Handout:
When the Firstborn race of the Children of Ilúvatar, the Elves, awoke in the eastern part of Middle Earth, the Ainur encouraged them to relocate to the Blessed Land of Aman, in the Far West.  Some, led by the three Elven kings Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë, agreed.  Elwë, however, was distracted on the road when he met and fell in love with the Ainu Melian.  His brother, Olwë, led part of their tribe onward to Aman.  This was the first major split among the Elves: 
  •    the Dark Elves, who remained in Middle Earth. Those who were not enslaved by Melkor remained uncivilized and presumably drow-like.  Tolkien says no more about them.
  •    the High Elves (Eldar), who went to the Blessed Lands, and
  •    the Grey Elves (Sindar), who remained with Elwë and Melian.  Their realm was Doriath, with its capital in the underground city of Menegroth.

The High Elves in Aman were:
  •    the Vanyar, Ingwë's people, who lived mostly in Valimar and the lower parts of Mt. Taniquetil.  Ingwë is considered High King of all the Elves.  His reign is so peaceful and happy that little more is said about it in the histories.
  •    the Noldor, Finwë's people.  They lived primarily in the city of Tirion, near the coast.  The Ainur carved the "Pass of Light", Calacirya, through the Pelóri Mountains, to allow the Light of the Two Trees to reach Tirion.
  •    the Teleri, Olwë's people.  They lived first on the island of Tol Eressëa, and later at the city of Alqualondë on the coast north of Tirion.  They were great mariners, and built the famous swan ships.

BelenosStormchaser Magic
AelKennyr Rhiano
Bryster Shan
Lihan Taifun
Ossy Portocarrero

Everyone, this is Ossy
Will you be alright here, or do we need to move closer to the river?
I can waddle, I should be ok! Being by the water would be nice but I can breathe air too :D
I suggest we move down to the bank of the river here
{We move down to the riverbank, for the convenience of the mer.}

So....what do we talk about tonight?
The title was, 'How Clever Elfen are when compared to Dragons.
AelKennyr Rhiano is because...blushess...I forgot the real topic.
I think it was "groups of the elves"
{passes around the notecard}
That covers the earliest splits in the Elves
But it may be, in honor of our newest member...we can tell him abit about Osse first? Is that ok?
of course
Ossy Portocarrero grins "My name is in there:"
it is?
Oh.. no I thought I saw my name, I was just using wishful thinking maybe xD its Ael's name, Olwe
That's ok....maybe you skipped that day in "school" school....lolol
uh oh, maybe it is a mistake letting Olwe sit next to Osse
He's just lucky I like Teleri
nod nod nod nod
Don't worry.. if they misbehave I'll give them a nip
I have to keep telling the Ainur : elves are fragile!
nod nod nod nodnod
They only look fragile.
AelKennyr Rhiano liberates the fish from his boot

So, does anyone have any comments on the history of Elves, so far?
I have a question? The colours of the elves.. was that incidental?
What is your question? I think the reference is to how much exposure they got to the Light of Aman
ahhh, ok..
That makes a lot of sense
Although .... the elves in Aman did seem to bleach in the light, so they were, in fact, paler.
Could that be over exposure?
The Vanyar were mostly blonde, the Sindar mostly dark haired. The Noldor mostly dark haired, too, I think. Not sure about the Teleri.
Except when theyt're very me.
They were either Brown haired or silver. Older Teleri, like Olwe would be silver haired
How many thousand years does that take?
Only my hairdresser knows for sure
Don't know. I'm only 150.
Is this the bit where we are told to respect our elders?
But Peter Jackson was exagerating with all the silver haired elves in middle earth. That was a rare hair color, in Middle Earth
the silver?
It's how he made them look all mystical
Yes, it looks good on camera ... But really, most of the elves of Lorien, or Rivendell, would have had dark hair
He chose a few main characters to have dark hair, mostly I think as a way of making them stand out from the pale/silver crowd
So....the Sindar were not "high elves?"
hmmm, did I get that wrong? about the Sindar and the High Elves?
Let me look back at my notes. "The Sindar are "grey" perhaps because they were not Elves of the Light, never having actually set foot in Valinor, but neither were they Avari, since they did accept the invitation and set out on the journey (and therefore were technically counted among the
So, you are right Lihan, in a way...but they are of Telerin descent. So I guess we could include them in the Eldar.
So when you refer to the blessed lands, that is aman, yes?
Aman, the Blessed Lands, the Far West, yes
So is there a word that describes "Teleri who came to Aman", as distinct from the Sindar? Since, yes, the Teleri would include all of Elwe'soriginal people, the third tribe
Well, yes...there are a number of names for the Teleri
Some which cannot be mentioned in polite company.. :D
When people speak of the "Teleri" language, which is a dialect of Quenya, they mean the ones who came to Aman. The ones who stayed, obviously, speaking Sindarin. Or, it had evolved into Sindarin by the time the other Eldar got back to Middle Earth
yes, Telerin comes from the Quenya...
(we try not to mention that he talks funny)
the Teleri of Aman were known as the Falmari
oooh, yes, right ...
or "sea elves". We were also called foam riders. We named ourselves Lindar or "singers" because of
our voices. We were also called the Nelyar, for "thirds"
just like "Teleri" - the "last ones"

I have a question, though, Lihan, perhaps you can explain.
at least I can babble ..
The teleri supposedly were descended from Enel, the third elf to awake, his spouse and 72 companions. Yet it was Elwe who first became their king and later Olwe. What confuses me...well, a lot. Did not Elwe and Olwe awake at that same time? at Cuiviénen?
hmmm, yes.... and we never heard of anything happening to Enel?
yes, that too
not like he got killed, or something
It feels like Tolkien changed his mind, but we didn't get a revision of the story.
that does sound likely
Perhaps before they were named kings, the elves had no need to have kings. It was only over time that such things evolved?
And, how could Olwe and Elwe be "brothers", if they were from the first generation to awaken?
yes, I tease about Elwe being the Elder brother by a few seconds
But, everyone was too sleepy to be sure ...
But really all those elves at the awakening would be brothers and sisters.
Yes, you would think so. Just like trying to figure out the family relationships of ainur
yes, it is
yes.. that makes sense.. after all, the awakening was rather like being born, as they came to life together
What does it MEAN that Yavanna and Nessa are "sisters"? or is it Yavanna and Vana? (now I am in trouble!) Nessa and Orome ... so it must be Yavanna and Vana. What were we talking about?
Google says vana.. :D
I don't have copies of all those books of Tolkien's collected notes and rough drafts. He did change a number of things
nor do I, but that has always puzzled me. There is one other thing that I wondered about. Phoenix said Olwe never died.
:-) that is nice to hear
no wonder his hair got all silver
I'm sure Alqualonde is much nicer than Mandos
but is that true?
that Alqualonde is nicer than Mandos?
or that Olwe is still alive?
and what about Glorfindel of Gondolin?
yes I had that question, too. And after Elwe dies...what happens to the Sindar?
didn't Elwe have a son, also? or did the Sindar go with Luthien's son?
Sccording to tolkien gateway, olwe didn't
Let me look...I thought they went with Luthien's son...but I could be very wrong
Luthien's son certainly was in the story
Luthien's son was ... Elrond & Elros' .... grandfather? I can't do the family trees from memory
AelKennyr Rhiano gave you Tolkien Family Trees.
I know his grandson Dior became a Sindar king
Dior was the son of Beren and Lúthien, and the heir to the throne of Elu Thingol as King of Doriath.
there you go!
and the grandfather of elrond
he was Elwe's heir apparent
since Luthien died so young. I suppose if Luthien had lived, she would have inherited
"Olwë appears to have belonged to the first generation of Elves, who awoke at Cuiviénen rather than being born. If this is true, however, it's hard to explain the fact that he had two brothers, Elwë; and Elmo, so it is at least conceivable that he was born while the Elves still lived in the distant east, rather than awakening there."
Elmo? O.o
Tickle me Elmo?
You have a fuzzly little brother?
and he's red, that doesn't make sense
BelenosStormchaser Magic: *wonders if they make a Tickle me Olwe*.. hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano does Elmo's voice..."Uh-Huh!" "Wheeee"
See....that is why we don't talk about Elmo much in the family...looks down
but Olwe can do pronouns, so it isn't the same. Elmo the pronoun-impaired
He sounds like Kushiel ... sorry, inside joke :D
friend. He is bad for using no pronouns whatsoever.
well a few, but rarely and often incorrectly
must be related, then
well, Quenya/Teleri doen'st use many pronouns
BelenosStormchaser Magic snickers
No, but we do have them.
mostly just implies them with word endings

Now, Arth last night, and I have read this elsewhere, said that Osse was close to the Sindar. But I thought he was close to the Teleri
Some of the Sindar were seafaring, weren't they
That next question? Does the origin seem at times murky? like perhaps revised but not fully fleshed.
I know there are several, totally contradicting,
versions of where Galadriel picked up Celeborn. And none of the versions is scratched out, they all
exist, and they aren;'t even close to being compatible
nod nod nod nod nod nod
picked up?
Soo....if we were to rp beyond the age of the LOTR, we could pick which version of things would serve as our facts, as history
meh, neither are many husbands and wives, but they still exist ... :D
So.....We could choose to use the Silmarillion as the basis for Olwe's past.... which means no sons, one WIFE!
But most people only have one husband or wife, not several
Hehe.. yay for no wife!
Youre really anti-wife aint ya elfie?
nod nod nod nod nod
I thought the elves generally went for only one spouse
Do any of the stories actually name a wife for olwe? .. google doesn't (yeah I know, not the most reliable of sources, but it's a start)
But tolkien went for many revisions!
None of this "remarriage", after Finwe
In the history, there was a reference to many sons. I think a name, but nothing more.
Maybe he might have found them under a cabbage leaf?
First elmo and now cabbage patch kids?
AelKennyr Rhiano looks down...Well, looks sad...there was this "boating accident....."
Well, if there are sons, you would expect a wife in the story O.o
Well, they may have been a wife in his past.. but not where he is in the story now.. :)
Yes.....that boating accident...AelKennyr Rhiano shakes his head. Poor poor Ethel.
((I'll be sure to tell Puma about that one...)) *
Maybe Puma was the one who pushed her
Erm, it was those high tides
High tides? Are you blaming me?
A freak storm at sea
Actually, I was blaming Puma: Puma = Tilion = Moon
Mmm you have a point Lihan, I retract my indignant question

Osse, however, we know has a wife!
She's not here, I'm able to ignore her.
So...Osse's wife?
Uinen, who keeps him in line
No one keeps me in line!
that is why SHE is a favorite of the Teleri
pPPFFTT ... lies
and the Numenorian sailors
AelKennyr Rhiano pokes Ossy
Ossy Portocarrero snaps his teeth at the elf.
Henpecked Ainu! Love it.
Ossy Portocarrero grumbles. She's not here, no henpecking.
He travels the wide oceans, looking for places she isn't
Ossy Portocarrero ties his hair back and glares at Ael. "Quite right, an Ainu needs his space!"
I read he was actually in the service of Melkor at one point
Yeah, I read that too. Wonder what Melkor promised him
Ossy Portocarrero: Never you mind
But, ah, Uinen took his mind off it, whatever it was
For a time, til the thrill passed... Now I'm too busy avoiding her to get up to any real fun.
She seemed to control him a lot. Wonder how she did it.
Probably had one of those godawful baby photos we all have and threatened to show it around if he didn't behave
Baby photos of an Ainu?
>.> We are timeless, no such thing.
Well, if he was in the flesh?
Maybe an early prototype of a body?
Or she had one of him in a dress.. :D
It must have taken us a while to get good at building bodies
... Oh what I would do for builders rights, just about now. Its hard to conjure storms if you can't build
Lihan Taifun perks up her ears
Ageless Ainu! tempered by SL mod rights! Ossy Portocarrero: No one would believe it
BelenosStormchaser Magic gave you The Dwarf in a Dress.
speaking of which....see.. now who would want photos like that circulating.. :D
AelKennyr Rhiano looks at the picture...eeeek
Ossy Portocarrero quickly finds a storm-producing hud or something on Xstreet SL
See, photos like that and no storm.. Works every time.. :D

Too tall but nicely done
He must have been wearing a different shape from his usual one. His usual dwarf shape is quite good
He tp'd me to ask my opinion on a was his g/f making it.. but for some reasons he was modelling it
Anjie's female dwarves she makes too petite. and she knows it, but the petite ones sell better
Lihan, are there any dwarves left?
There are a lot of members of Firebeard group, but no leadership, and no sim.
Do you know how many? I wonder if they would want to rp... and where they are now?
Maybe 20, it looks like
Richie isn't leading them any more?
I am surprised Sheri and Arth did not make a bid for them...
Yeah. I met one dwarf from Tirion
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
But she didn't have Firebeards listed on her groups
Lihan, do you know any of the firebeard dwarves?
hmmm, not really
I have met a couple
Belenos, you?
And some, like Fi and Ted, are more honorary members
It does seem like there is an untapped potential. I've met a couple at norgrod ages ago, but nothing past the meeting
We need dwarves.. they add depth to the role play
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
But with menegroth gone, where do they live?
Where does Aztryd live?
in a post LOTR
I was thinking that...does Valarinde have room for dwarves..? Alqualonde does.
Valarinde doesn't have prims
We do... Or we could...with some remodelling.
You have all those hills. You might be able to tunnel into them
Yes. That is exactly what I was thinking

I have a question about Osse? He is lord of storms....does that include lightning?
Snow, stuff like that?
Thunder? dark clouds?
Nope, lightning is Ilmare
Wind is Manwe, you know that.
Ugh they are all lightningey and rainey and not at all watery
heh heh...windbag
So how does one have a storm without wind or lightning?
A tsunami would do a number on Alqualonde
:\ I'm going to need to my own spells if I want any. There's nothing for water conjurers that doens't
involve storms
Not for a tsunami you don't
Pure water?
Well...this is the longest discussion group session we have had...but I think we started talking about rping.
{Discuss possibilities for water magic.}

What should we discuss next week? Dwarves? See if any come?
We discussed dwarves this week :P
Yes...but we didn't advertise it. If we do. then we may have the remaining dwarves show up....we can see how things stand for ourselves. If they need a home.
Yes.. a good point

Beware of bored ainur
It's bored dragons you have to watch out for too.. and sleepy ones, it seems
{The conversation now degenerates into who the dragon might eat.}

ok, next week dwarves?
dwarves suit me fine
I'll remember not to eat before I come.. :D

* Editor's note: This is what happens when one's roleplay romantic partner is different from one's actual romantic partner.