The Immortality of Elves

September 30

Topic:  The Immortality of Elves

Present

AelKennyr Rhiano

Bryster Shan

InyaRay Oktomica

Fifi Wickentower

Vixyn Felisimo

topaz Seriman

Artemis Yuhara

Lihan Taifun

Tuatha Shippe

Vixyn Felisimo smiles, shading her eyes against the glare and wondering if her eyes will adjust.

My Lord, looks we we are two of the luckiest elves in Arda to be in the presence of such beauty.

Vixyn Felisimo closes her eyes relying on sharp hearing instead, and thinks of the shadowed passages of the Underdark

Tonight's topic is the Immortality of Elves. People describe elves as "immortal", yet they can be killed (no comments yet?)

If I may... The mistake is in thinking that Elves are invulnerable. We are 'long-lived'.

Amortal, perhaps... immortal, no.

How do elves describe themselves?

Perhaps a definition of "immortal" would be in order.

But we seem 'immortal to such as Edan.

If I may be geeky a moment? The word the elves use for themselves is "ilfirin", which would be better translated "unfading", not affected by old age and, generally not by disease. Elves do not die of "natural causes"

ahh

But in the 3rd age did they not acknowledge that it was there powers that were fading?

They did

The inability to prevent Lorien from falling to the ravages of time.

Would that affect their own life span?

Good question.

and by the Third Age, many of the older elves were feeling "tired", though probably more in an emotional than physical sense, I would guess

After 3000 or more years.

Maybe more like "seriously bored"

They were willing to hand over middle earth and accept that the age of man had arrived.

Is there no place for the immortal among the mortal... ?

meaning ...?

perhaps they had to go...

because of the humans?

yes

What do we know that can kill an elf?

Weapons certainly.

Being forced to watch the entire third season og Gilligan's Island? That would kill *anything*!

InyaRay Oktomica nods

Elves have thrown themselves into rivers as suicide

Someone's been reading The Children of Hurin.

I don't remember anything about Gilligan's Island in Children of Hurin

Thank goodness.

Though we don't really know evrything that happens in the dungeons of Utumno

What would make an elf want to commit suicide?

love

Berevment

loss of the light that is their ultimate nourishment

Enslavement

as men encrouched more, the vibrations lowered

Speaking of light, I think I will turn the sky to nighttime. The Sun hasn't been invented yet. We can have proper starlight.

lovely idea

Vixyn Felisimo sighs with relief and opens her eyes to the welcomong Night

There you go, dear.

S'sinurn!

Feanor's mother died of depression, or exhaustion of spirit

Beautiful! ((the stars... not Feanor's mother dying, that is))

Soo...elven immortality.

With weapons ... I would guess that a wound that doesn't kill quickly won't be fatal at all?

That would depend, wouldn't it?

I don't think elves get infected wounds

Would depend on what?

Well...thinks... I guess if I were to think of another type of literature, the story of the "Fisher King"

go on

They would never die of sicknees or pestilance

He had a wound that never healed...it was not mortal...but I could see that were an elf to suffer such a wound, he or she may choose to end their lives rather than live for untold centuries, with such a wound that never heals.

Could spells kill elves?

I believe I once killed an elf with a vile curse...

There is I beleive no mention of 'spells'.

I am also mindful of when Elrond spoke to his daughter about choosing to love and live with the mortal Aragon...you remember?

But he only wared that Aragorn would die before she did.

yes

And she would fated to life in a fading world.

yes....that is why I think an elf would not choose to live with a wound that would never heal

And she, being partly human herself, had the choice to take mortality, and the human path

Alone and without the company of her kin.

Nor would they choose life that was debilitating in any way.

Was it Maedhros, who lost a hand?

How so was Arwen partly human?

Her father, Elrond, was one of the "half-elven" brothers, grandsons of Luthien Tinuviel. Elrond chose the elven path, and his brother Elros chose to be human, and became the first king of Numenor. (which makes Arwen's father and Aragorn's ancestor brothers)

Thank you. I hadn't known that.

Who was the happier I wonder? in their time

Yes, the elves didn't seem to enjoy their immortality much

They were shocked as to how 'frail' humans appeared.

So if an elf does not choose to end his life or does not receive a mortal wound.....do they live forever?

or at least an age?

Yes. They were to live until the end of the earth.

ageless...

Noticing that should a plague appear humans died very quickly and by the time humans had beome knowledable in the ways of the Elves, they died.

But is that really true, ageless?

"Until the end of the earth" makes them still more finite than the Ainur

That was as Eru made them.

Or just the elves who were born at the waters of the awakening?

I thought all elves

By that, I mean to ask...elves do give birth to children, correct?

Yes they give birth.

Plenty of examples of elven children

Then they are not ageless.

and the children grow up

For their children do not spring from their parents, like Athena from Zeus. Elves do age

Or they would be born grown

AelKennyr Rhiano nods at Fifi

They don't wear out with age, like humans do

Yet how far can one age ?

"mature"?

If human reached their prime and stopped aging they would be about 30-35?

25.... 55... 105...

The human life span, it is believed, has a max of 125 years.

so with elves . . the same only they don't 'deteriorate

Aragorn was said to be 'long-lived', and yet he was not Elven.

He was of Numenorian ancestry, Dunadan. and he was a decendant of Elros

Bryster Shan nods.

If there was no decay then life would just go on

You speak as if long life was a curse forthe Elves.

I don't think it was.

It is said death was a gift to man... so one wonders

I think sometimes the elves envied humans

But I think....yes. I was about to say that.

Yes, I think they envied the humans and I think, in some ways the Ainu envied the elves

Besides the mysterios destiny after death for the humans

And the humans either envied all or were oblivious

well, humans!

Fifi Wickentower: makes a sound

So, when elves do die ... their spirits go the the Halls of Mandos in the Blessed Lands, and they say their spirits can return. I don't know of any examples of elves returning,though

If they returned, thougth, they would be someone new, right? So, how would we know they returned?

In a new race?

As elves, I would think

idk about that, but a new body and identity

Would they know they were elven ?

So elves reincarnate -- and to what purpose?

I guess for the same reason that people today believe in reincarnation.

Well, I guess there is some speculation that the Glorfindel of Elrond's house was the same Glorfindel of ... the hidden city, I forget what it is called ... Gondolin!

um, yes, reincarnation

All the children are new elven spirits?

For all intents and purposes . . if elves live longer thanany one else in the 'world' they would seem to be ageless, especially if they did not visibly grow old

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

such a fascinating thing ... time..

And if that is what they know ie: those around them - family etc stayed in their prime (once reached), then would they not live their lives as if

What do you think, Lihan? Do you think tolkien's elves reincarnated?

You don't hear about many who did. I wonder whether they chose their next lives in the Blessed Lands, though. Then we wouldn't hear about it. And, how many elves would want to go back to Middle Earth? Especially the Noldor, who mostly realized that leaving had been a mistake.

How do the Teleri feel?

All those deaths in the Kinslaying? Would they want to come back?

Tolkien says little about the Teleri after the kinslaying.

The focus of the story moves to Middle Earth after that. You are off camera

So we have to extrapolate. I can see, though, given the Teleri love of the seas, their history of travelling, that they would grow curious about the world about them, in time, and perhaps may explore once more

That makes sense, Ael. Curious elves must expand and explore.

So I think, if any elven race explored middle earth in later ages, it may well be the Teleri.

The Halls of Mandos must get very boring after a while.

They do not sound incredibly appealing..

That was my thought too . . .it is the sea that connects . . . the common boundary

So I think that the Teleri would fade last of all the elves.

And the Teleri probably didn'thave as many bad experiences as the elves in Middle Earth, so you might still be "fresher", less burnt-out.

AelKennyr Rhiano smiles....

Because they are close to the sea and air. Tthe inland elves were losing their lands to men

Watching the humans lose or destroy what they had built.

heart breaking

such wayward children.. the humans

I do think their hearts were broken

yes . . and the vibrational quality suffered . . if the elves were to survive they had to match the lower vibration, which was toxic, or leave . .as the quality of life became denser.

not life for them i would think

And knowing their own part in the troubles of the world didn't cheer them up any

To give way is heroic, in such a case

Yes! To know when to step back is a gift

and make room for the next generation

InyaRay Oktomica imagines the sail of the last Teleri ship... in the mist

evolution or, erm elfolution *ducks*

http://boa.teachout.com/InteractiveCommunity/Forums/tabid/696/forumid/27/scope/threads/Default.aspx

I have been posting our discussions, so you can catch up on what you miss

So, Lihan, after humans come to middle earth, do you see any of the elven races interacting with them?

There was a lot of interaction, in the first 3 ages. At least "detectable interaction". Plenty of humans in the Silmarillion. By the beginning of the 4th age, most of the elves had left. But, as you said, who knows what Teleri sailors might find on their explorations?

...

wb Lihan

Did you solve everything while I was gone?

yes... but then we forgot the question.

The air is sweet

Well, there will be a gap in the transcript, so the anwers will be lost.

Aas. And we ended world hungry...poverty...

Well, that's a good start :-) Feed them all starlight. Very nurishing

Let them eat starlight

Is that like 'let them eat cake?"

Well, it works for elves :-(

Only an Ainur would prefer it to a real hardy meal.

Do you want to continue this discussion next week?or another topic?

Do we still have the link to "everything Tolkien wrote about sex"? mariage customs of the elves

O.O

I like anything with enthusiasm...take your pick

I am not an Elf, mind you.

Nor am I, but feel oddly comfortable lol

Perhaps the differences between the different elves?

That's good - differences between elves :D

I'm terribly curious

I think my husband should hear this

Fifi Wickentower: *seems to hear more with floppy ears.

My ears are not floppy.

But mine are lol

The hair . . . tried to hide but

Are you looking at my ears??

Would I do that?

I saw you

Does it ever actually say that elves have pointy ears? I mean, everyone knows they do ...but, does it ever say?

hmmm

I like them either way, really

I have only seen it in descriptions in folklore tales

Of course we do...wiggles his ears.

One has to have some other kind of ear to compare to . . round ears or square

Bunny ears, or teddy bear ears

No-one ever says men have round ears

true

But men say elves have pointy ones

And . . of course, Ainu only have ears when they want to lol

Puma's are kinda pointy.

So are mine

Depending on the form they choose at the moment

Me too

Perky ears!

Trying to model ourselves after elves

Probably as many differences as there are in noses

Elves are always considered beautiful, though

AelKennyr Rhiano smiles a little

A luminious, etheric beauty

Faery have pointy ears too..but small ones. wanna see?

sure!

well i'll have to poof my hair...i'll show you later