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This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

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Tuesday, November 15, 2011

Yavanna continued

 Present:
Shawn Daysleeper 
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Lihan Taifun           
Belenos                     (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Lúthien                     (luthien.braveheart)
Rajani                       (rajani.milton)
Fifi Wickentower   

Summary:
Last week we told Yavanna's story, up to the creation of the Two Trees. At this point, there is still no sun or moon. First the Lamps and then the Trees were actual major light sources.

Tolkien does a lot with silver/gold pairings. These seem to be significant, though maybe not exactly “symbolic.” Silver is the masculine element of the pair, and gold the feminine.

None of the names of any of Yavanna's Maiar are recorded. She must have had Maia helpers. We do know that there were many more Maiar than the ones whose names are mentioned.

Shortly after Yavanna makes the Trees, the Elves awaken in Middle-Earth, and the Valar evacuate as many as are willing to the Blessed Lands. There, the great Noldor craftsman Fëanor creates his masterpiece: the Silmarils, three jewels that capture the light of the Two Trees. Fëanor does this just because the Silmarils are pretty, and he is talented enough to make them.

Melkor covets the Silmarils. He gets his spider-ally Ungoliant to help him, and they sneak in, poison the Two Trees, and steal the Silmarils. Yavanna and Nienna try to save the Trees, but they fail. Everyone – Ainur and Elves alike – are heartbroken. The only remaining Light now is the stars and the Silmarils.

If Yavanna could sing the Trees into being in the first place, why could she not save them, or create replacements? (Setting aside the fact that this would eliminate the plot of the story.) Yavanna says that the Trees were a once-in-a-lifetime accomplishment for her. Perhaps this reflects that the Valar are not all-powerful. Perhaps “creating” was easier at the beginning of time, and matter is now less easy to reshape. We didn't come to a firm conclusion.

The Two Trees tie in with the common archetype of the “World Tree”/“Tree of Life”.

Perhaps in some deeper way, the Trees had to eventually fail, because they only provided light for the Blessed Lands, not all of Middle-Earth. The Trees, like moving the Elves to the Blessed Lands, could be only a temporary solution. The permanent solution had to involve all of Middle-Earth. This continues the theme that the Valar are neither all-powerful nor all-wise.

During the Age of the Trees, the Valar in general were concentrating on the Blessed Lands, and ignoring Middle-Earth. This was not a unanimous policy, and Yavanna was one of the Valar who continued to visit Middle-Earth. She of course would not abandon her creations there


Lúthien:                      Hi everybody, thats is my firts time here...
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Welcome! :)
Lúthien:                      i'm brazillian,. and love tolkien literature. thanks
{Greetings continue.}

Rajani:                        Yavanna and the Ents tonight again?
Lihan Taifun:            last week we hadn't quite finished the story of Yavanna and the Two Trees
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I have to ask...tonight...can we please be a little more chronological? I stayed lost nearly the whole time last week? AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Lihan Taifun:            yes, that would be good
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, gods, yes! smiles
Belenos nods a lot
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles a little ruefully.
Lihan Taifun:            I ended up writing a summary for the archive
AelKennyr Rhiano:  That has to be hard to do.
Lihan Taifun:            shall I repeat that, from last week?
Rajani blushes...one kept trying to add to the story and it ended up being very confusing! yes please
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Luthien, we have a blog on the web for this discussion group.
Lihan Taifun:            http://tolkiendiscussion.blogspot.com/
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Lihan Taifun:            Yavanna:
She is the Vala of plants and animals. You mostly hear about her in connection with plants.
Her name, “Yavanna‚”, means “Giver of Fruits”.
Her title “Kementári” means “Queen of the Earth” -- “earth” in the sense of the flat ground, the soil.
She is the wife of Aulë (the Vala of the materials of which the earth is made ‚Äì rocks and mountains and such).
We have no record of the names of any of the Maiar who assist her.
Lúthien:                      oh, i see. Thanks!!!
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Lihan keeps it current and runs the discussion :)
Lihan Taifun:            The story of Yavanna creating the Two Trees:
At the beginning of the World, the Valar created two lamps to light the World. "Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days." One lamp was in the far north of Middle-Earth and one in the far south.


Aulë is the Vala generally in charge of making things.


The Valar held a big party to celebrate finishing all the creation. This was also the wedding of the Valar Tulkas and Nessa. Aulë took a nap because he was tired from all the work of creating, and Tulkas was busy honeymooning with Nessa. While Aulë and Tulkas weren't paying attention, Melkor snuck into Middle-Earth, broke the lamps, and generally smashed up the new world. The entire world is dark again.


The Valar did major repairs. At this time, they built and fortified the continent of Aman for themselves. In Aman, they built the city of Valimar and estates for each of the Valar. When this work was completed, Yavanna went out to the hill outside the city of Valimar, by the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into life, and Nienna watered them with her tears.


The Silver Tree was named Telperion, and was considered male. The Gold Tree was named Laurelin, and considered female. (These Two Trees will, later in the story, be the sources of the Moon and Sun.) Tolkien does a lot with the symbolism of silver and gold. Each tree glowed for half a day, taking turns, and this provided light for Aman. The “mingling of lights at twilight‚” when one tree faded and the other began, was especially magical and beautiful. The liquid light that fell from the trees and collected at their bases was magical, and Varda used some of it to make stars.


Everything is happy and magical in Aman for a long time. It is during this time that the Elves awake, and the Valar evacuate to Aman those who are willing (that is, the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri).
{This is not the end of the story, but this is where we ran out of time this week.}

Lihan Taifun gives people time to read all that
{Fifi arrives. Greetings}

AelKennyr Rhiano:  What were the lamps supposed to indicate Lihan?
Lihan Taifun:            indicate?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  symbolize?
Lihan Taifun:            nothing was ever said about that
Rajani:                        I think they weren't symbols so much as actual light sources, because, no sun and no moon yet
Lihan Taifun:            yes, actual light sources
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:            oh yes, that is very important, the sun and moon aren't around yet
Belenos:                      but you mentioned something about the symbolism of silver and gold?
Rajani:                        Tolkien repeats the motif of silver and gold a lot, but I'm not sure what exactly it is a symbol of....associated with masculine and feminine qualities sometimes
Lihan Taifun:            maybe "symbolisn" is too strong a word, but Tolkien does seem very fond of "silver and gold" pairings
Belenos:                      ahhh... ok, thank you..
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Silver was associated with male, the masculine?
Lihan Taifun:            yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Interesting
Belenos:                      so.. we are up to the trees being made
Rajani:                        in some of the other stories you will notice references to trees, and they often are related to the Two Trees....the White Tree in Gondor, for example, is a great great great great great grandchild of the Silver Tree Telperion
Lihan Taifun:            we are up to the Trees being made
Rajani:                        we are up to the Trees being made, by Yavanna \o/
Lihan Taifun:            and it is during the Age of the Trees that the Elves awaken, and the Valar evacuate them to the Undying Lands
ok, so after a long happy time, Melkor starts quietly stirring up trouble. he poisons the minds of the Noldor against the Valar
Rajani:                        nodnod
Lihan Taifun:            and particularly, he poisons Feanor's mind
Rajani:                        Feanor is a great Elvish craftsman
Lihan Taifun:            Feanor is the eldest son of Finwe the King of the Noldor, yes, great craftsman
and his masterpiece is the three Silmarils ... jewels the capture the Light of the Two Trees
Rajani:                        nodnod
Lihan Taifun:            and Melkor totally covets the Silmarills
Belenos:                      why did he make jewels to capture their light?
Rajani:                        the Silmarillion is named after the Silmarils....the book title means "story of the Silmarils"
Belenos:                      what was the need?
Rajani:                        because it was pretty, I think
Lihan Taifun:            yes, because it was pretty, and hard to to
Rajani:                        the Silmarils are kind of like literal stars in gem form....pretty fantastic and pretty difficult work even for an Elf
Lihan Taifun:            exactly
Rajani:                        everybody loves them. the Silmarillion is all about the crazy things people do to get their hands on them :P (there are 3 Silmarils)
Lihan Taifun:            but that is getting ahead of the story :)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Can we get back to Yavanna?
Rajani:                        yes, erm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Isn't it odd that there is no record of Maiar attending Yavanna?
Lihan Taifun:            at least none of their names are recorded
Rajani:                        there are only about half a dozen named Maiar in total, so there must be a whole lot we don't know the names of (insert original characters here! :D)
Shawn Daysleeper:  hehe
Lihan Taifun:            the Trees! can we finish the story?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I mean, she has a lot of responsibility, why ...sure
Rajani:                        Morgoth hates the Trees
Lihan Taifun:            Melkor next gets his giant-spider ally to help him, and the two of them sneak in and poison the Two Trees
Rajani:                        nodnod
Shawn Daysleeper:  yes
Lihan Taifun:            now the only Light left is the stars in the sky, and the three Silmarils
Rajani:                        Yavanna and Nienna try to save the Trees, but are unsuccessful
Belenos:                      I imagine Yavanna would have been pretty distressed at that?
Lihan Taifun:            oh yes! everyone was
Rajani:                        Heartbroken I expect :(
Lihan Taifun:            but probably Yavanna the worst
Rajani:                        it's the end of an era yeah :(
Lihan Taifun:            The Valar send a message to Feanor, asking him to give them the Silmarils
Belenos:                      can i ask a question?
Lihan Taifun:            yes?
Belenos:                      If at this point the trees have been poisioned.. and yavanna sang them into being in the first place.. why didn't she just sing some more?
Lihan Taifun:            I think she said it was the kind of masterpiece she could only do once. Rajani, do you remember?
Rajani:                        I think that's right, it was her great work for a lifetime, sort of thing
Lihan Taifun:            I think that because Feanor said something about, the Silmarills were something HE could only do once in his lifetime. yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yavanna?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, the Trees were Yavanna's great, once-in-a-lifetime masterpiece
Rajani:                        Wikipedia says, "Again Yavanna sang and Nienna wept, but they succeeded only in reviving Telperion's last flower (to become the Moon) and Laurelin's last fruit (to become the Sun). "
Belenos:                      interesting thought that she had the power to do it once.. but not a second time.. so her creative abilities are more like an artist who paints (for example).. rather than a 'power' as such
Lihan Taifun:            BUT WE HAVEN"T GOTTEN TO THAT YET
Rajani:                        argh sorry. :(
Lihan Taifun:            yes, I agree, Belenos, it doesn't quite make sense
Rajani:                        I don't think the Valar are limitless in their power though
Lihan Taifun:            it wouldn't make a very good story, though, if Yavanna could just make new Trees
Rajani:                        like, I don't think Varda kept making stars all teh time after the first few rounds
Lihan Taifun:            and there may have been something about "creating" was easier at the beginning of time
Rajani:                        mmm, that would make sense
Belenos:                      yes that's true... but i'm using it as an example of how to form her character's abilities in my RP.. *smiles*..
Rajani:                        :D
Lihan Taifun:            as time went on, the Valar did less and less "creating", and more guiding and guarding and giving advice
Rajani:                        everything fades with time in Tolkien's world, though if that affects the Valar it's a much longer period of power and a much slower decline than for humans or Elves
Lihan Taifun:            oh yes, very relevant questions
Rajani:                        I also kind of vaguely remember that Morgoth's spider friend may have poisoned the ground the Trees were on? is that right? so they couldn't have grown again in any case
Lihan Taifun:            hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I found something interesting about Yavanna earlier...
Lihan Taifun:            oh?
AelKennyr Rhiano"With Yavanna Tolkien creates a Goddess who resembles the 'Tree of Life' or 'World-tree' myths found in many cultures from all over the world. Not only Yggdrasil in Germanic/Norse tradition - as mentioned above - is an example, also Nyagrodha in the Upanishads, Asvattha in the Bhagavad Gita, even the two Trees in the Garden of Eden are further occurrences of this myth. Depictions of such 'Trees of Life' dating back as far as to the early Sumerian period have been found. "
Lihan Taifun:            ah, ok, so Yavanna and the Trees are tapping into the Tree of Life /Goddess archetype
Belenos:                      so to Tolkien she would have been closely bound to the trees... so their loss would have affected her greatly
Lihan Taifun:            that makes a lot of sense
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes. if I may share a bit more, please?
Lihan Taifun:            please
AelKennyr RhianoThe cosmic ash of Germanic mythology. Its branches overhung all the worlds and struck out above the heavens. It had three mighty roots: one reached down to Giantland, where stood the wisdom well of Mimir; the second ended in foggy Niflheim, close by the well of Hvergelmir, close by the “the roaring cauldron”, and dragon Nidhoggr, “dread biter”, which gnawed the root from below; the last was embedded in heaven and beneath it was the sacred well of Urdr, where the gods had their judgement seat.

Yggdrasil means “the horse of the terrible one‚, Odin. Since this god discovered the secret of runic wisdom by hanging himself on the cosmic ash” that is, sacrificing himself to himself”, Yggdrasil must have been regarded as a tree of knowledge. Parallel with the Cross, the death of Odin has a separate ancestry, sacrificial trees have existed in northern Europe from earliest times. Christian missionaries like St Boniface (c.674-754) cut them down, to the terror and rage of the people: till he was himself cut down at Dockum near the Frisian coast.

Now as I hear so many expound upon the Christian overtones of Tolkien's literature, I found this interesting.
Lihan Taifun:            quite
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Why would he have linked such an important Vala with such a pagan concept. Why was Yavanna needed in the first place?
Shawn Daysleeper:  it was a vala concept but it did fail them
Rajani:                        Tolkien had a longstanding fondness for Norse myth
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I read over the Silmarillion again, and one could almost make the case that he could have fused Varda and Yavanna into one character?
Rajani:                        hmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  What do you mean, Shawn? That was an interesting comment :)
Shawn Daysleeper:  in the end the trees were not a permenant substitution for the lamps, not sure where to take it from there hehe
Rajani:                        :D So, even the Valar's solutions don't always work
Lihan Taifun:            and they could never have been a permanent substitute, because the Trees only lit up the Blessed Lands, not Middle Earth
Rajani:                        nodnod
AelKennyr Rhiano:  No, the trees were not, Shawn. Do you think that had a deeper meaning, perhaps?
Shawn Daysleeper:  ya it could, but not sure exactly what
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun:            it seems to go with that era when the Valar we only caring about what happened in their own land, not Middle Earth. they moved the elves to Aman, and ignored Middle Earth
Shawn Daysleeper:  it shows the vala are not perfect, both Yavanna and Aule failed in their own ways at times
Belenos:                      it's shows they were not all powerful and all knowing, that's for sure
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, Shawn, I like that observation. yes
Lihan Taifun:            and the whole era was shortsighted
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But...see...wait... Yavanna had to care. she was "Queen of the Earth," right?
Belenos:                      yes.. it was all her creation
Lihan Taifun:            and Yavanna and Orome were among the very few who visited Middle Earth and checked up on things
Rajani:                        oh that's true
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So...yes, I can see where this shows that they were not all powerful, but I can't go with they were uncaring.
Rajani:                        for part of the time, there wasn't anyone else to care about, besides the animals, because the Elves weren't there yet. licking their wounds after the last round of fights with Morgoth maybe :P
Lihan Taifun:            "neglectful"?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But Yavana was the person who should care MOST about the plants AND the animals.
Rajani:                        Maybe Yavanna always had a plan for how to bring light to the rest of Arda
AelKennyr Rhiano:  in fact, I could try to make the case that there would be little distinction to her between elves and deer...as both are animals.
Fifi Wickentower:    nod nod
Belenos:                      they were both living beings
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think we are shorting Yavanna tremendously.
Lihan Taifun:            the Valar in general weren't paying much attention to Middle Earth, Yavanna was
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We are looking at everything BUT her and her relationship within the community of the Vala and her position among them.
Belenos:                      it is easy to lump all the valar into 'the valar' and assume all were in agreement with actions taken by the group on the whole.. or to not think about how they may have individually thought or felt on those actions
Lihan Taifun:            and in this case, we know that they were not all agreed
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Right
Lihan Taifun:            on a number of topics
Fifi Wickentower:    te unifying factor was the Great Song . . before and after they each had their own concerns and affairs
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Agreed, fifi!
Lihan Taifun:            not all agreed it was a good plan to bring the Elves to Aman
Fifi Wickentower:    nod

{Several people have to leave. We will continue next week.}

Tuesday, November 8, 2011

Yavanna


Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Lihan Taifun           
Rhûn Darkmoon
Rajani                       (rajani.milton)
Belenos                    (belenosstormchaser.magic)



Summary:
Yavanna:
●  She is the Vala of plants and animals. You mostly hear about her in connection with plants.
●  Her name, “Yavanna”, means “Giver of Fruits”.
●  Her title “Kementári” means “Queen of the Earth” -- “earth” in the sense of the flat ground, the soil.
●  She is the wife of Aulë (the Vala of the materials of which the earth is made – rocks and mountains and such).
●  We have no record of the names of any of the Maiar who assist her.

The story of Yavanna creating the Two Trees:
At the beginning of the World, the Valar created two lamps to light the World. "Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days." One lamp was in the far north of Middle-Earth and one in the far south.

Aulë is the Vala generally in charge of making things.

The Valar held a big party to celebrate finishing all the creation. This was also the wedding of the Valar Tulkas and Nessa. Aulë took a nap because he was tired from all the work of creating, and Tulkas was busy honeymooning with Nessa. While Aulë and Tulkas weren't paying attention, Melkor snuck into Middle-Earth, broke the lamps, and generally smashed up the new world. The entire world is dark again.

The Valar did major repairs. At this time, they built and fortified the continent of Aman for themselves. In Aman, they built the city of Valimar and estates for each of the Valar. When this work was completed, Yavanna went out to the hill outside the city of Valimar, by the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into life, and Nienna watered them with her tears. 
 
The Silver Tree was named Telperion, and was considered male. The Gold Tree was named Laurelin, and considered female. (These Two Trees will, later in the story, be the sources of the Moon and Sun.) Tolkien does a lot with the symbolism of silver and gold. Each tree glowed for half a day, taking turns, and this provided light for Aman. The “mingling of lights at twilight”, when one tree faded and the other began, was especially magical and beautiful. The liquid light that fell from the trees and collected at their bases was magical, and Varda used some of it to make stars.

Everything is happy and magical in Aman for a long time. It is during this time that the Elves awake, and the Valar evacuate to Aman those who are willing (that is, the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri).
{This is not the end of the story, but this is where we ran out of time this week.}





Lihan Taifun:            do we want to start thinking about ents?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I thought it was Yavanna AND the ents...Not just the ents?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, Yavanna and the ents; where were we last week?
Rajani:                        something about how Ents happened because Yavanna didn't trust Dwarves not to hack at trees
Lihan Taifun:            I wonder whether it worked. Did ents stop Dwarves form chopping trees?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Can we start tonight, thought, discussing Yavanna? We are going to rp tonight, and that would really help us, I think.
Rajani:                        that could be cool
Belenos blushes some more.. it would be appreciated.. I am still very new to the character of Yavanna
Lihan Taifun:            does someone want to say something about Yavanna?
Rajani:                        Yavanna and Aule sort of seem to me to be a case of opposites attract in a way....but also they are similar because they are both interested in the physical world (rocks on the one hand, trees on the other)
Belenos:                     well, other than that she was with aule and made the growing things I know little about her.. it's why I asked for the topic because usually so much more comes out in the discussions than you find on the internet
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think we were waiting for you to share your wisdom?
Lihan Taifun:            oh
AelKennyr Rhiano:  :)
Lihan Taifun:            um, well, yes, she is Aule's wife, she's in charge of plants and animals; you mostly hear about her in connection with plants. Her name "Yavanna" means "giver of fruits". Her titles are Kementari (queen of the earth -- as in the flat earth, the ground, soil)
Rajani:                        Yavanna Kementari is a very pretty name I always thought
AelKennyr Rhiano:  What was the quenya for animals?
Lihan Taifun:            kelvar?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok Was there a Maia who assisted her?
Rajani:                        hmm, I don't remember one right off, but, we don't know very much about the Maiar names at all
Lihan Taifun:            I don't know of any named Maiar we know of
Belenos:                     there are maiar listed who were with aule. but none i've found listed for yavanna
Rajani:                        didn't Sauron originally work for Aulë            ?
Belenos:                     yes
Lihan Taifun:            yes, her song caused the Two Trees to grow, and she might have been able to repair the Trees, if she had the Silmarills to work with
Rajani:                        oh yes, she was part of the whole story with the Trees and Melkor and all that too, right?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, and that is the last story she is in , I think
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Wait, please. Part of the whole story with the Trees and Melkor?
Rajani:                        that story should probably be told from the beginning :D
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes, please?
Rajani:                        um, what do I remember about that...
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It feels like we are bouncing all over the place and not giving the discussion its due and assuming we all know the same thing.
Rajani:                        well, there is not very much about Yavanna to bounce around between :D
Belenos nods nods I have to agree.. i'm getting lost already
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Me, too.
Rajani:                        but that is an important story
Belenos:                     well.. it kinda helps if it's in some sort of order?
Lihan Taifun:            I found that chapter
Rajani:                        oh good
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So...from the top?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Please.'
Lihan Taifun:            after the city of Valimar was built, Yavanna went to the hill outside the city, near the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into existence, and Nienna watered them with her tears
Belenos:                     Did she use anything then to help her?
Rajani:                        nodnod
Rajani:                        did she just sing?
Lihan Taifun:            in the published Silmarillion, she just sang
Rajani:                        one three was silver, Telperion, and the fruit from that made the Moon (that Tilion guides) and the other one was gold, Laurelin, and the fruit from that made the Sun (that Arien guides)
Belenos:                     pretty powerful singing to make trees like taht
Rajani:                        yeah!
Rhûn Darkmoon nods a lot, 'I'll say.'
Rajani:                        when Yavanna made the trees there was no Sun or Moon, so she made the trees glow for light. the Lamps of the Valar from the previous episode, when there was also no sun or moon yet
Lihan Taifun:            in some other drafts, the Valar planted the remnants of the two lights, which Melkor had broken
Rajani:                        ooh, that would make sense
Lihan Taifun:            yes, everything Rajani said (although the Sun and Moon come later)
Belenos:                     wait.. are you talking now about the other drafts or the book?
Rajani:                        Melkor is a jerk and keeps breaking the lightbulbs :(
Lihan Taifun:            'cause he likes the dark, to sneak around better
Rajani:                        yes
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'Please, you are losing me again. I.. I have not read the books.'
Rajani:                        yes, there are several drafts of the Silmarillion stories, because Tolkien was indecisive, but we can say that it is because the myths changed over time, and the Elves told many different versions of the stories later on :)
Belenos:                     well I think though I need to know the one we are based on?
Rajani:                        simplest to go with what was published though, maybe?
Belenos:                     yes please?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, and in this case it is only a minor difference in detail
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Please, do. I.. I am getting confused otherwise.'
Rajani:                        nod nod
Belenos:                     so we are up to where she sang the trees into life... and the sun and the moon came from them
Lihan Taifun:            the the published version, Yavanna just sings the Two Trees into existence, to provide light, since Melkor broke the first lights
Rajani:                        yes exactly
Rajani:                        Morgoth keeps breaking everything that the Valar make, and he broke their last source of light, so Yavanna made the trees to shed light
AelKennyr Rhiano:  What were the first lights?
Rajani:                        giant lamps think? possibly Aule made them (?)
Lihan Taifun:            there used to be two huge lights, set on pillars, one in the north of Middle Earth and one in the south
Rhûn Darkmoon listens
Rajani:                        But Morgoth broke them. actually he and Aule really hate each other's guts, because of stuff like that
Lihan Taifun:            yep
Belenos:                     wait, why would aule in particular hate morgoth over that?
Rajani:                        because Aule is the Maker of stuff (mountains, giant lamps) and Morgoth breaks everything Aule makes as soon as he can. And then Aule makes more stuff and Morgoth tries to smash it
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'So he's not just the maker of the Dwarves and 'the Smith'?'
Rajani:                        Dwarves were a late development. Lihan, do you have a quote about Aule building things, from your chapter?
Lihan Taifun:            "Aule at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas " ...
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Ok.'
Lihan Taifun:            ..."Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwe hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days"
Rajani listens
Lihan Taifun:            one in the south and one in the north, casting constant daylight over the whole world
Rajani:                        yes
Lihan Taifun:            then, the Valar held a big party to celebrate getting everything finished
Rajani:                        was that when Morgoth showed up to smash stuff?
Lihan Taifun:            and Aule and Tulkas took naps, and while they were napping, Melkor snuck around and smashed the lamps, yes
Rajani:                        he is such a jerk
Belenos:                     i read that, that tulkas and nessa got married.. and then tulkas went to sleep. I thought at the time he must have had too much wine at the wedding
Rajani:                        I bet she wore him out first :P aaanyway
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes crimson
Rajani:                        :P
Lihan Taifun:            you're right, that was the wedding, ok. ..."weary and content" is how Tulkas is described, and for Tolkien, that is saying a lot
Rajani:                        haha, yes, honeymooning. they had all been pretty busy though, so I don't blame them for taking a break. Anyway, so, Aule makes lamps, lamps get smashed, Yavanna makes trees
Belenos:                     so ok.. we are up to teh trees being made and the celebration.. so what happened after?.. Morgoth destoyed the trees?
Rajani:                        Trees stick around for a couple centuries or millenia, right? but then....
Belenos:                     ok.. but umm yavanna? trees?
Rajani:                        yes! the Trees were around for a while, right?
Lihan Taifun:            so, after the wedding, and the lamps get broken,and the Valar have lots of rebuilding, and they build the island of Aman, and fortify it
Rajani:                        nod nod
Lihan Taifun:            and build the city of Valimar, and estates for all the Valar
Rajani:                        at which point I think Valimar is pretty much like it is now in our RP
Lihan Taifun:            and when they have done that, Yavanna grows the Two Trees
Rajani:                        One tree glows at a time,so one is getting brighter and the other is getting dimmer, and then they reverse
Lihan Taifun:            yes, very pretty
Rajani:                        when they are both half-light, that is twilight, yes, very magical, Tolkien does a lot of symbolism with gold vs silver, I think
I might be remembering wrong that one of the Trees is cast as feminine and the other as masculine? ?
Lihan Taifun:            yes, the Gold Tree is female, and the Silver Tree is male. and the liquid light that falls out of the Trees collects in pools, and is very magical
Rajani:                        yes! and! Varda makes stars out of some of it (Ilmare probably did some of that)
{Ael leaves to get things ready for a roleplay session.}
Rajani:                        ok, so everything is happy and magical for a long time, but Morgoth had this friend Ungoliant....well I say friend, more like uneasy ally
Lihan Taifun:            and while everything is happy and magical, the elves move to Aman
Rajani:                        Olwe and his brothers
Lihan Taifun:            the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri
Rajani:                        they were born in Middle Earth and came to Valinor, and that is a whole long story in itself. the Vanyar live nearest the Valar, the Noldor are craftsmen, and teh Teleri are mariners.Teleri is Alqualonde :)
Belenos:                     well umm.. yes.. and we are tying to focus on Yavanna.. but unfortunately She has role play tonight.. so can we continue this next week on her story?

Tuesday, November 1, 2011

Yavanna and the Ents

Present:
Damian                     (silverwing.benoir)
Sequoyah                  (vlosh.troncon)
Lihan Taifun            
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Belenos                    (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Rajani Milton         


Summary:
Tolkien originally wrote the story of Aulë creating the Dwarves and the story of Yavanna and the Ents separately. It was Christopher Tolkien's editorial decision to put them together as two halves of Chapter 2 of the Silmarillion. The decision does make sense, and the two stories go together well.


After Aulë created the Dwarves, and after he and Eru have settled the matter of the Dwarves, Yavanna tells Aulë that, because he didn't consult her while making the Dwarves, Dwarves will have little respect for living things.  She continues to worry, and talke to Manwë, asking for a protector for her defenseless plants.  "Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those who wrong them!"  Manwë consults with Eru, and agrees that this is foretold in the Song.  Manwë declares: "when the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summons spirits from afar, and they will go among the [animals] and the [plants], and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young."


That passage suggests some kind of protectors for animals, as well, but no one knows what Tolkien – or Manwë – was referring to. The “spirits from afar” are never explained, either. We wonder about Tom Bombadil, but he would require a discussion of his own.


What about huorns? They appear, in Lord of the Rings, as semi-sentient beings partway between ents and trees.


At this point, the sim crashed. We will continue the discussion next week.



Lihan Taifun:             hello
Damian:                      hello
Lihan Taifun:             two new people tonight
Damian:                      only two people tonight!
Lihan Taifun:             there will be more; they straggle in
Damian:                      I invited my friend also. hope that's ok; Sequoyah
Lihan Taifun:             that is wonderful
Damian:                      he's an ent :-)
Lihan Taifun:             perfect
Damian:                      he doesn't talk much
Lihan Taifun:             heh heh, ok
Damian:                      but don't piss him off!
Lihan Taifun:             glad to have you both
...
Damian:                      while we are waiting can you tell me about this group?
Lihan Taifun:             Tolkien Discussion Group?
Damian:                      hmm I guess the name pretty much describes it
Lihan Taifun:             we meet once a month, and have geeky discussions about Tolkien
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We are home for the Fellowship of the 4th Age, whose Tolkien inspired, Fantasy inclusive rp is called "Dawn of the 4th Age."
Lihan Taifun:             although the Discussion Group is not strictly part of Fourth Age
AelKennyr Rhiano:  no, it is not exclusive to the 4th Age at all.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But I can imagine someone wanting to know our interest.



Lihan Taifun:             Belenos, do you want to start out about Yavanna, or ents, since you picked the topic. we won't put our visiting ent on the spot first thing
Rajani Milton:          hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano:  so we put Yavanna on the spot :P
Rajani Milton:          ha
Damian:                      he doesn't mind
Belenos:                     Well then, *smiles at the visiting ent*... I'd love to hear about Yavanna..
Damian:                      (whatever you do, don't call him a tree!)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  heh heh
Rajani Milton:          :D
Belenos:                     well, not so much put yavanna on the spot.. but our dear resident tolkien expert.. that's why i asked for the topic.. I'm sure Lihan knows quite a lot about Yavanna
Lihan Taifun:             hmph, pass the buck
Belenos:                     and I'd really value hearing that so I can put some depth into my rp character. Belenos smiles and puts sugar on the buck as she passes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  lol!
Rajani Milton:          nai-ji, you are likely to have bucks passed to you frequently in this group :D ooh, candy-bucks!
Lihan Taifun:             :P
AelKennyr Rhiano:  some without sugar.
Lihan Taifun:             :P
Lihan Taifun:             so, inte Silmarillion, we have the story of Aule creating the Dwarves
Rajani Milton:          nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             then, Christopher Tolkien attached the story of Yavanna and the ents, in the same chapter
AelKennyr Rhiano nods and listens
Lihan Taifun:             those two stories do make sense together, though Tolkien wrote them separately
Belenos:                     attached it? ahhh..
AelKennyr Rhiano:  as a counterpoint?
Lihan Taifun:             Tolkien didn't write those two on the same sheet of paper, that was an editorial decision by Christopher
Rajani Milton:          they seem to go together so well that I am surprised he didn't write them together
Lihan Taifun:             although I think it makes sense
Belenos:                     so you are saying it was his son who chose to put yavanna and Aule together as a 'couple'?
Lihan Taifun:             no no, Tolkien wrote all the family relationships of the Valar. just that Christopher put those two stories -- Aule and the Dwarves, and Yavanna and the Ents -- back to back as a single chapter
Belenos nods.. ok
Sequoyah:                   I love hearing about myself
Rajani Milton:          hee
Lihan Taifun:             but it does make some sense -- Aule creates the Dwarves, outside the original Music, and then Yavanna gets worried, and wants protectors for her creatures
Rajani Milton:          Dwarves have axes O.O
Lihan Taifun:             you have read the story, Sequoyah?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  to grind, even.
Sequoyah:                   only parts of it. I did see the movie
Lihan Taifun:             Yavanna says:
Belenos:                     this is where I get stuck I have to admit.. I find the silmarillion very hard to read.. *listens to what yavanna says*
Lihan Taifun:             "Yet because thous hiddest this thought from me until its achievement, thy children will have little love for the things of my love. They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father. They will delve in the earth, and the things that grow and live upon the earth they will not heed. Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity"
Belenos:                     ouch
Rajani Milton:          This Eru talking to Aule after he made the dwarves on his own initiative, right? or is it Yavanna?
Lihan Taifun:             this is Yavanna talking to Aule, after Eru has talked to Aule, and given the dwarves true life
AelKennyr Rhiano nods, listening.
Lihan Taifun:             so Yavanna continues to worry, and talks to Manwe, and asks about making some protectors for her trees, since (unlike the animals) the trees can't defend themselves
AelKennyr Rhiano:  so the trees needed a protector? And there is no Smoky the Bear in Tolkien.
Rajani Milton:          nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             "Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those who wrong them!" says Yavanna
Belenos:                     lol
Sarah B (etierre.bonde) is Online
Lihan Taifun:             and she says that she remembers, in the Song, some of the trees singing amid the wind and rain
AelKennyr Rhiano:  and thus the idea came about?
Lihan Taifun:             so Manwe consults with Eru, and announces that "when the Children awake", ...
Lihan Taifun:             "then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summons spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. ...
Lihan Taifun:             "For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young."
Belenos:                     *spirits from afar*.. interesting though
Lihan Taifun:             it is, and never explained
Damian:                      a bit obscure
Lihan Taifun:             ("kelvar" is Quenya for animals, and "olvar" for plants)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  so there are protectors for the animals, too?
Lihan Taifun:             that is what it sounds like. mysterious
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It does indeed
Rajani Milton:          hmmm. wonder if they are related to Tom Bombadil ? :D
Lihan Taifun:             that's a good question
AelKennyr Rhiano:  How would they be related to tom?
Lihan Taifun:             we could do a whole night on him
AelKennyr Rhiano:  probably should
Lihan Taifun:             doesn't he seem to be some kind of protector? maybe not of "animals" specifically, but of his forest
AelKennyr Rhiano:  well, yes, I guess he does at that.
Lihan Taifun:             so the Ents were created to be protectors of plant-kind
Sequoyah:                   so I have a purpose
Lihan Taifun:             was there anything you wanted to add about ents?



{The sim crashes. Eventually some of the people make it back.}



AelKennyr Rhiano:  Perhaps we should try to continue the discussion next week, too? Since we all got thrown out so rudely
Lihan Taifun:             that did kinda ruin the momentum
AelKennyr Rhiano:  nod nodnod
Belenos:                     yes.. that would make sense
Belenos:                     would help our visitors too



AelKennyr Rhiano:  so...There were not just Ents but some kind of protector for animals as well as for the plants?
Lihan Taifun:             that one line suggests that, Ael. I'm not sure what the protectors of the animals would be
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And what was the difference between Ents and Huorns?
Lihan Taifun:             the huorns weren't well explained at all
AelKennyr Rhiano:  no, they really are not.
Belenos blushes.. this is the first i've heard of them?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It almost sounds like Treebeard was one...but he was an Ent, right?
Lihan Taifun:             he was an ent. the huorns seemed to be something between a tree and an ent
Belenos:                     you mean there is something in between that?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Correct me if I have a wrong understanding.
Lihan Taifun:             in Quenya, "huorn" would mean "heart-tree"
AelKennyr Rhiano:  There were the trees, and these huorns who seem to watch over the trees, but then they were, in turn, watched over by the Ents?
Lihan Taifun:             in the Lord of the Rings, there are huorns
AelKennyr Rhiano:  right
Lihan Taifun:             the huorns were sentient, but not as intelligent or friendly as ents
AelKennyr Rhiano:  so...Perhaps the huroms were like the Maiar...helpers...but to the Ents?
Lihan Taifun:             it wasn't clear whether they were devolved ents or enlightened trees, or what
Belenos:                     and she's changed too.. :)
Lihan Taifun:             Treebeard makes some comment about "sheep get like shepherds and shepherds get like sheep"
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. They still have voices and can speak to the Ents, but unlike Ents, they do not seem able to speak intelligibly to other races. It just struck me that Tolkien created a two-tier structure among the Ainur, and he seems to have done the same with the shepherds of the trees.



AelKennyr Rhiano:  So if growing things were affected by Yavanna's sadness, it would first affect the trees, and then the huorms, and then the ents. or could it go the other way? the more sentient, the more affected by what affect Yavanna?
Lihan Taifun:             I would guess trees first, but it could go either way
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Soo...if the protectors of the plants are divided into two groups, then it would be reasonable that the protectors of the animals would be also divided into two groups.