Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Rhûn Darkmoon
Rajani (rajani.milton)
Belenos (belenosstormchaser.magic)
Summary:
Yavanna:
● She is the Vala of plants and animals. You mostly hear about her in connection with plants.
● Her name, “Yavanna”, means “Giver of Fruits”.
● Her title “Kementári” means “Queen of the Earth” -- “earth” in the sense of the flat ground, the soil.
● She is the wife of Aulë (the Vala of the materials of which the earth is made – rocks and mountains and such).
● We have no record of the names of any of the Maiar who assist her.
The story of Yavanna creating the Two Trees:
At the beginning of the World, the Valar created two lamps to light the World. "Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days." One lamp was in the far north of Middle-Earth and one in the far south.
Aulë is the Vala generally in charge of making things.
The Valar held a big party to celebrate finishing all the creation. This was also the wedding of the Valar Tulkas and Nessa. Aulë took a nap because he was tired from all the work of creating, and Tulkas was busy honeymooning with Nessa. While Aulë and Tulkas weren't paying attention, Melkor snuck into Middle-Earth, broke the lamps, and generally smashed up the new world. The entire world is dark again.
The Valar did major repairs. At this time, they built and fortified the continent of Aman for themselves. In Aman, they built the city of Valimar and estates for each of the Valar. When this work was completed, Yavanna went out to the hill outside the city of Valimar, by the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into life, and Nienna watered them with her tears.
The Silver Tree was named Telperion, and was considered male. The Gold Tree was named Laurelin, and considered female. (These Two Trees will, later in the story, be the sources of the Moon and Sun.) Tolkien does a lot with the symbolism of silver and gold. Each tree glowed for half a day, taking turns, and this provided light for Aman. The “mingling of lights at twilight”, when one tree faded and the other began, was especially magical and beautiful. The liquid light that fell from the trees and collected at their bases was magical, and Varda used some of it to make stars.
Everything is happy and magical in Aman for a long time. It is during this time that the Elves awake, and the Valar evacuate to Aman those who are willing (that is, the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri).
{This is not the end of the story, but this is where we ran out of time this week.}
Lihan Taifun: do we want to start thinking about ents?
AelKennyr Rhiano: I thought it was Yavanna AND the ents...Not just the ents?
Lihan Taifun: yes, Yavanna and the ents; where were we last week?
Rajani: something about how Ents happened because Yavanna didn't trust Dwarves not to hack at trees
Lihan Taifun: I wonder whether it worked. Did ents stop Dwarves form chopping trees?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Can we start tonight, thought, discussing Yavanna? We are going to rp tonight, and that would really help us, I think.
Rajani: that could be cool
Belenos blushes some more.. it would be appreciated.. I am still very new to the character of Yavanna
Lihan Taifun: does someone want to say something about Yavanna?
Rajani: Yavanna and Aule sort of seem to me to be a case of opposites attract in a way....but also they are similar because they are both interested in the physical world (rocks on the one hand, trees on the other)
Belenos: well, other than that she was with aule and made the growing things I know little about her.. it's why I asked for the topic because usually so much more comes out in the discussions than you find on the internet
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think we were waiting for you to share your wisdom?
Lihan Taifun: oh
AelKennyr Rhiano: :)
Lihan Taifun: um, well, yes, she is Aule's wife, she's in charge of plants and animals; you mostly hear about her in connection with plants. Her name "Yavanna" means "giver of fruits". Her titles are Kementari (queen of the earth -- as in the flat earth, the ground, soil)
Rajani: Yavanna Kementari is a very pretty name I always thought
AelKennyr Rhiano: What was the quenya for animals?
Lihan Taifun: kelvar?
AelKennyr Rhiano: ok Was there a Maia who assisted her?
Rajani: hmm, I don't remember one right off, but, we don't know very much about the Maiar names at all
Lihan Taifun: I don't know of any named Maiar we know of
Belenos: there are maiar listed who were with aule. but none i've found listed for yavanna
Rajani: didn't Sauron originally work for Aulë ?
Belenos: yes
Lihan Taifun: yes, her song caused the Two Trees to grow, and she might have been able to repair the Trees, if she had the Silmarills to work with
Rajani: oh yes, she was part of the whole story with the Trees and Melkor and all that too, right?
Lihan Taifun: yes, and that is the last story she is in , I think
AelKennyr Rhiano: Wait, please. Part of the whole story with the Trees and Melkor?
Rajani: that story should probably be told from the beginning :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, please?
Rajani: um, what do I remember about that...
AelKennyr Rhiano: It feels like we are bouncing all over the place and not giving the discussion its due and assuming we all know the same thing.
Rajani: well, there is not very much about Yavanna to bounce around between :D
Belenos nods nods I have to agree.. i'm getting lost already
AelKennyr Rhiano: Me, too.
Rajani: but that is an important story
Belenos: well.. it kinda helps if it's in some sort of order?
Lihan Taifun: I found that chapter
Rajani: oh good
AelKennyr Rhiano: So...from the top?
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Please.'
Lihan Taifun: after the city of Valimar was built, Yavanna went to the hill outside the city, near the circle of the thrones of the Valar, and sang the Two Trees into existence, and Nienna watered them with her tears
Belenos: Did she use anything then to help her?
Rajani: nodnod
Rajani: did she just sing?
Lihan Taifun: in the published Silmarillion, she just sang
Rajani: one three was silver, Telperion, and the fruit from that made the Moon (that Tilion guides) and the other one was gold, Laurelin, and the fruit from that made the Sun (that Arien guides)
Belenos: pretty powerful singing to make trees like taht
Rajani: yeah!
Rhûn Darkmoon nods a lot, 'I'll say.'
Rajani: when Yavanna made the trees there was no Sun or Moon, so she made the trees glow for light. the Lamps of the Valar from the previous episode, when there was also no sun or moon yet
Lihan Taifun: in some other drafts, the Valar planted the remnants of the two lights, which Melkor had broken
Rajani: ooh, that would make sense
Lihan Taifun: yes, everything Rajani said (although the Sun and Moon come later)
Belenos: wait.. are you talking now about the other drafts or the book?
Rajani: Melkor is a jerk and keeps breaking the lightbulbs :(
Lihan Taifun: 'cause he likes the dark, to sneak around better
Rajani: yes
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes, 'Please, you are losing me again. I.. I have not read the books.'
Rajani: yes, there are several drafts of the Silmarillion stories, because Tolkien was indecisive, but we can say that it is because the myths changed over time, and the Elves told many different versions of the stories later on :)
Belenos: well I think though I need to know the one we are based on?
Rajani: simplest to go with what was published though, maybe?
Belenos: yes please?
Lihan Taifun: yes, and in this case it is only a minor difference in detail
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Please, do. I.. I am getting confused otherwise.'
Rajani: nod nod
Belenos: so we are up to where she sang the trees into life... and the sun and the moon came from them
Lihan Taifun: the the published version, Yavanna just sings the Two Trees into existence, to provide light, since Melkor broke the first lights
Rajani: yes exactly
Rajani: Morgoth keeps breaking everything that the Valar make, and he broke their last source of light, so Yavanna made the trees to shed light
AelKennyr Rhiano: What were the first lights?
Rajani: giant lamps think? possibly Aule made them (?)
Lihan Taifun: there used to be two huge lights, set on pillars, one in the north of Middle Earth and one in the south
Rhûn Darkmoon listens
Rajani: But Morgoth broke them. actually he and Aule really hate each other's guts, because of stuff like that
Lihan Taifun: yep
Belenos: wait, why would aule in particular hate morgoth over that?
Rajani: because Aule is the Maker of stuff (mountains, giant lamps) and Morgoth breaks everything Aule makes as soon as he can. And then Aule makes more stuff and Morgoth tries to smash it
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'So he's not just the maker of the Dwarves and 'the Smith'?'
Rajani: Dwarves were a late development. Lihan, do you have a quote about Aule building things, from your chapter?
Lihan Taifun: "Aule at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had build between the encircling seas " ...
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Ok.'
Lihan Taifun: ..."Then Varda filled the lamps, and Manwe hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are mountains of the later days"
Rajani listens
Lihan Taifun: one in the south and one in the north, casting constant daylight over the whole world
Rajani: yes
Lihan Taifun: then, the Valar held a big party to celebrate getting everything finished
Rajani: was that when Morgoth showed up to smash stuff?
Lihan Taifun: and Aule and Tulkas took naps, and while they were napping, Melkor snuck around and smashed the lamps, yes
Rajani: he is such a jerk
Belenos: i read that, that tulkas and nessa got married.. and then tulkas went to sleep. I thought at the time he must have had too much wine at the wedding
Rajani: I bet she wore him out first :P aaanyway
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes crimson
Rajani: :P
Lihan Taifun: you're right, that was the wedding, ok. ..."weary and content" is how Tulkas is described, and for Tolkien, that is saying a lot
Rajani: haha, yes, honeymooning. they had all been pretty busy though, so I don't blame them for taking a break. Anyway, so, Aule makes lamps, lamps get smashed, Yavanna makes trees
Belenos: so ok.. we are up to teh trees being made and the celebration.. so what happened after?.. Morgoth destoyed the trees?
Rajani: Trees stick around for a couple centuries or millenia, right? but then....
Belenos: ok.. but umm yavanna? trees?
Rajani: yes! the Trees were around for a while, right?
Lihan Taifun: so, after the wedding, and the lamps get broken,and the Valar have lots of rebuilding, and they build the island of Aman, and fortify it
Rajani: nod nod
Lihan Taifun: and build the city of Valimar, and estates for all the Valar
Rajani: at which point I think Valimar is pretty much like it is now in our RP
Lihan Taifun: and when they have done that, Yavanna grows the Two Trees
Rajani: One tree glows at a time,so one is getting brighter and the other is getting dimmer, and then they reverse
Lihan Taifun: yes, very pretty
Rajani: when they are both half-light, that is twilight, yes, very magical, Tolkien does a lot of symbolism with gold vs silver, I think
I might be remembering wrong that one of the Trees is cast as feminine and the other as masculine? ?
Lihan Taifun: yes, the Gold Tree is female, and the Silver Tree is male. and the liquid light that falls out of the Trees collects in pools, and is very magical
Rajani: yes! and! Varda makes stars out of some of it (Ilmare probably did some of that)
{Ael leaves to get things ready for a roleplay session.}
Rajani: ok, so everything is happy and magical for a long time, but Morgoth had this friend Ungoliant....well I say friend, more like uneasy ally
Lihan Taifun: and while everything is happy and magical, the elves move to Aman
Rajani: Olwe and his brothers
Lihan Taifun: the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri
Rajani: they were born in Middle Earth and came to Valinor, and that is a whole long story in itself. the Vanyar live nearest the Valar, the Noldor are craftsmen, and teh Teleri are mariners.Teleri is Alqualonde :)
Belenos: well umm.. yes.. and we are tying to focus on Yavanna.. but unfortunately She has role play tonight.. so can we continue this next week on her story?
