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Tuesday, July 26, 2011

Quenya Lesson 10 — Cases — Nominative, Accusative, and Dative, part 2

< Lesson 9     
Lihan Taifun (teaching)
Rajani Milton
Shawn Daysleeper

Practicing nominative plurals:
     osellë (kinswoman) ––>  oselli
     Maia                            ––>  Maiar,
     Vala                             ––>  Valar
     elda (High Elf)          ––>  eldar


How do you pronounce í? The same as i, but the syllable will be accented. Why one-syllable words have accents is a mystery. Though it might explain why some one-syllable words are sometimes written with and sometimes without an accent.


Handy new vocabulary word: tula- tulta- (bring)
     “Á tulta _____" for the command, "Bring ____!"
     Á tulta parma!                Bring the book!
     Nienna tulta parmá.      Nienna brings the book.
     Ilmarë tulta parmar.    Ilmare brings the books. (Third-Age style)
     Ilmarë tulta parmai.    Ilmare brings the books. (Valinorian style)
     Ilmarë tulta lassí.          Ilmare brings leaves
     Shawn tulta parmai ar lassi.


I see a ship             Cenen cirya.
I see ships              Cenen ciryar, or ciryai in Valinorian
Cenen mar             I see home
Cenen marinya     I see my home

mírinya        my jewels,
osellenya     my sister

Give Maisy to Olwë.       Á anta Maisy Olwen
Give Maisy an apple!     Á anta Maisyn orva/orvá. (This is the kind of question that comes up when a language has to deal with “loan words” from other languages. Here I am assuming -y in “Maisy” acts the same as a Quenya -i ending. Other people might handle it differently.)

Á anta parma (parmá) osellenyan.              Give my sister the book
Á anta parmanya (parmanyá) Niennan     Give my book to Nienna.


Nar” (fire) is closely related to “Anar” (Sun). The months “Narvinyë”, “Nárië”, and “Narquelië” refer to the Sun, rather than literally fire. Possibly you could say the Sun is named “The Fire”.



after (in time), in front of (in location)     apa, epë
before (in time)             nó
behind (in location)     ca
together with                 as
without                           ú (use genitive noun) (or prefix au-, ava-)
betweeen                        imbë
outside, beside (in location)     ara
in, within                       mi
to, toward                      ana
across, on both sides, over, beyond     arta
beyond                            pella
under                              no
above, over                    or
on behalf of                   rá (use a dative noun)
like, as                            vë

and                          ar
except                     enga
on the contrary    anat
and yet                   ananta
because                 an

> Lesson 11   

Sauron, continued

Lihan Taifun            
Rajani Milton          
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Shawn Daysleeper 
Belenos the Bad     (belenosstormchaser.magic)

Future meetings will be the first Tuesday of each month, 7 pm slt, starting September 6.

Sauron was the bad guy in the Second and Third Ages, famous for making the One Ruling Ring. He is the one portrayed in The Movies as a flaming eye.

Sauron was originally called Mairon, a Maia of Aulë, so he was always a technology guy. He turned early to become a follower of Melkor/Morgoth. A number of other Maiar, including the Balrogs, followed Melkor at the same time.

Sauron was Melkor/Morgoth's right-hand Maia throughout the First Age. Luthien had an encounter with Sauron, on her way to confront Morgoth.

Strangely, there is no record of where Sauron was or what he was doing during the War of Wrath, when Melkor was defeated. We wonder whether he was already concentrating on saving his own skin.

Gandalf, and all the Five Wizards, were Maiar. Gandalf's original name was Olorin. Manwë requested him to be one of the Wizards; he also had some connection to Nienna, and to Estë. Saruman/Curumo, another technology guy, was another Maia of Aulë. Gandalf was at first reluctant to take the job, because he thought he was not powerful enough to battle Sauron.

Sauron was attracted to Morgoth by the idea of control and order – a strong leader who could keep everyone in line. This is similar to Saruman's and Galadriel's temptations: “if we had power, we could fix everything”. Tolkien may have been commenting on his own times, and the urge to tear down institutions in the name of “fixing things”. Certainly one of the infamous bad guys of his era was obsessed with “order”.

Tarrega:                     Vedui' (Greetings)
Shawn Daysleeper:  hello :)
Tarrega:                     I'll be back!
Lihan Taifun:             we can give her a minute
Lihan Taifun:             back
Lihan Taifun:             we were talking about Sauron; maybe this would be a good time to talk about scheduling
Lihan Taifun:             what's he done now?
Belenos the Bad:      now he was the guy who was only the flaming eye in the movies, yes?
Lihan Taifun:             yes
Belenos the Bad:      ok..:)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             the bad guy, in the Second and Third Ages
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:             famous for making the One Ruling Ring
Belenos the Bad:      aha.. :)
Lihan Taifun:             is Tuesday nights a good time for people?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It is for me :)
Lihan Taifun:             I was thinking once a month might work better for us
Belenos the Bad:      me too.. :)
Lihan Taifun:             we have been so busy with the RP
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Would Quenya still be weekly, Lihan?
Belenos the Bad throws heself at lihan's feet in gratitude.. yes!!!
Lihan Taifun:             I was thinking of Quenya still weekly
Belenos the Bad:      it's so hard for me to get to everything I want to get to... but if the discussion were once a month I could slot it in for sure.. :)
Shawn Daysleeper:  yes once a month is ok
Lihan Taifun:             I have a conflict on second Tuesdays of the month
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think with all we have going on, we could do better justice to the Discussion if it were once a month.
Belenos the Bad:      so make it the first tuesday of the month?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We really dedicate ourselves to such a great deal of education.
Lihan Taifun:             You do seem to do quite a lot!
Lihan Taifun:             "first Tuesday" is easy to remember
Belenos the Bad nods.. yes, it is
Lihan Taifun:             starting in September; we won't do one next week
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:             ok, great. so, Sauron; originally one of Aule's Maiar
Lihan Taifun:             *nods*
Belenos the Bad:      the jewelery turned bad guy
Lihan Taifun:             though quickly turned to Melkor
Lihan Taifun:             there is no record of where he was during the War of Wrath that brought down Melkor
Lihan Taifun:             hmm
Lihan Taifun:             so you wonder if he was already thinking more of saving his own skin
Belenos the Bad:      was he on melkor's side at that point?
Lihan Taifun:             he HAD been Melkor's right-hand Maia
Lihan Taifun:             That was after most of the wars between Melkor and the Elves and the Humans, right?
Lihan Taifun:             so, I find it strange that he is never mentioned during that war
Lihan Taifun:             I seem to recall Luthien fighting Sauron. It seems like the evil guys didn't show much loyalty to each other
Lihan Taifun:             yes, Luthien fought Sauron, on her way to Melkor
Belenos the Bad:      wait.. Luthien could fight?
Lihan Taifun:             welcome back, Tarrega
Tarrega:                     Thank you!
Shawn Daysleeper:  smiles
Belenos the Bad:      please take a seat and join us.. *smiles*
Tarrega:                     ...nice to meet you all
Lihan Taifun:             Luthien, as I recall, used more magic than weapons
Belenos the Bad nods.. ahhh.. ok
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Sauron was one of Aule's Maiar's, correct?
Lihan Taifun:             right
Lihan Taifun:             originally
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Right
Shawn Daysleeper:  leave it to Aule hehe
Belenos the Bad:      LOL.. Poor aule
Lihan Taifun:             yeah! had Melkor gone bad, by the time Sauron joined him, do you think?
Lihan Taifun:             I thought Melkor had gone bad by the time of the Great Song
Belenos the Bad:      but sauron wasn't the only of his maiar to go bad either was he?
Lihan Taifun:             hmm, I think a bunch of them did. whose were the Balrogs originally? Yeah, I think so
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Wasn't one of the Balrogs Nienna's? I mean, before they were Melkor's
Lihan Taifun:             The Balrogs were Melkors
Tarrega:                     the Balrogs were maiars?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes
Lihan Taifun:             yes they were
Lihan Taifun:             that was one of our characters, Ael, but we have no record of who they belonged to before they joined Melkor
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:             that would be fun to run with in RP, hmm
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But now Sauron was originally called Mairon, right?
Lihan Taifun:             right, they were called the Valaraukar at one point, I think, the flames of the Valar...before they went evil (the Balrogs)
Lihan Taifun:             Oh was he? Hmm
Tarrega:                     Gandolf was also a Maiar...?!?
Lihan Taifun:             yes, Gandalf was
Tarrega:                     who did he serve?
Lihan Taifun:             I should know this...
AelKennyr Rhiano:  He was under Nienna
Lihan Taifun:             Manwe, I think. Although he spent some time with Nienna
Tarrega:                     ah....
AelKennyr Rhiano:  no, no. He was your Maia, Lihan. AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Lihan Taifun:             I seem to recall he spent time with Estë and Irmo as well
AelKennyr Rhiano:  He lived in the gardens of Irmo. yes, nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             that may be one of those points where Tolkien wrote several versions, in different places
Lihan Taifun:             I know it says he "learned pity and patience" from Nienna, which I always thought must have come in useful later, as Gandalf
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Manwe was the one who wanted to send Gandalf, Olorin, to Middle Earth to assist those who opposed Sauron. Gandalf did not want to go because he was afraid he was not mighty enough to face Sauron.
Lihan Taifun:             you can tell he had a quite different personality from, say, Saruman
Lihan Taifun:             yes, even when he was grumpy
Shawn Daysleeper:  Aule sent Saruman I believe
Lihan Taifun:             (I'd be grumpy too if I'd had to be an old man for several hundred years )
Tarrega:                     smiles
Lihan Taifun:             Saruman, with his interest in technology, seems like an Aule type
Lihan Taifun:             He does. Didn't they agree to send emissaries (the Istari) and then argued over who to send?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes.
Lihan Taifun:             Curumo/Saruman was an obvious choice, but Olorin/Gandalf was added on at the end, after the others
Lihan Taifun:             but he did the best job
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:             he did
Shawn Daysleeper:  you must had been a good teacher, Nienna
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Now, the reason that Melkor was able to corrupt Sauron...
Lihan Taifun:             hmmmm
Lihan Taifun:             I read somewhere that Sauron liked "order", a strong leader, who could keep everyone in line
Lihan Taifun:             Melkor was good at promising people things
Lihan Taifun:            
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes, I read that, too.
Lihan Taifun:             Mmmm, that sounds right
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And Melkor could give the appearance of order and control, couldn't he?
Lihan Taifun:             Which...isn't that the same temptation Galadriel had with the Ring? I will put everything right! Fix it and make it all run properly
Lihan Taifun:             and what Saruman said to himself, "I can keep Sauron in line"
Lihan Taifun:             ooh, yes
Tarrega:                     With your permission I will go now. Thank you for your hospitality. "A'a orne Yavanna t're le" (May Yavanna's Trees watch over you)
AelKennyr Rhiano:            Sére ar alasse
AelKennyr Rhiano:          (Peace and joy)
AelKennyr Rhiano:        ar saila, m√¢lon!
AelKennyr Rhiano:    (and wisdom, friend!)
Lihan Taifun:             nice meeting you
Lihan Taifun:             Namarie, Tarrega
Belenos the Bad:      well.. that was a brief visit
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Wasn't it?

AelKennyr Rhiano:  No...Tolkien was pretty masterful with the corruption of Sauron, and it was a great statement of his sentiment of his time.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Sauron as Mairon wanted above all else order, hated waste, yet he chose to follow Melkor, who was all about waste, destruction and chaos.
Lihan Taifun:             Sauron must have been in a bit of an authoritarian mindset to get into that
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Absolutely.
Belenos the Bad:      but was he into waste, destruction and chaos for their own sake, or for his purpose?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, good question!
Belenos the Bad:      I mean, he wanted to rule, yes?... so he'd want to destroy what the others had built.. but did he then have a long term plan for his own world?
Lihan Taifun:             I think he started out with it being for a purpose, and ended up being just for fun
Lihan Taifun:             who? Sauron, or Melkor?
Belenos the Bad:      Melkor?
Lihan Taifun:             either, both
Belenos the Bad:      yes.. you'd think they'd both have had to have sought the same thing
Lihan Taifun:             I had the impression Melkor was more into destruction, and Sauron more into ruling
Belenos the Bad:      but would not that have conflicted in the end? if melkor destroyed everything what would be left to rul ?
Lihan Taifun:             though that might have been Tolkien thinking about it later, rather than what he was thinking while he was writing
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Or was it that the longer Sauron followed Melkor, the less he cared about order and the more about power itself?
Belenos the Bad:      i'm asking because I'm trying to figure out what drew Sauron to Melkor in the first place..
Belenos the Bad:      that's possible too, Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We have seen many who came to a love of power because they equated control with order.
Lihan Taifun:             I imagine that Melkor didn't tell Sauron everything at first; yes
Belenos the Bad:      thinking they were the only ones who knew the solution and could do it right, huh?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And we must remember that Sauron was very faithful to Melkor. He didn't seek to supplant Melkor, did he?
Belenos the Bad:      could a maia supplant an Ainu?
Lihan Taifun:             hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, another good question. But wouldn't the better question be: could a Maia conceive of supplanting an Ainu?
Lihan Taifun:             well, Melkor promised Ulmo's positon to Osse, but we don't know whether Melkor could or would have delivered
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Your question makes me wonder if Sauron could even conceive of rebllion.
Belenos the Bad grins.. well.. Eonwe concieved of putting sword to the throat of one?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  in the rp. heh heh heh
Belenos the Bad:      hehe.. yeah I know..
Shawn Daysleeper:  I think Melkor attracted these maia because of promises of power
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Good point, Shawn
Belenos the Bad:      yeah, the eternal, 'why should we be lesser and not have the same power as those' which often drives such behaviour
AelKennyr Rhiano:  in Morgoth's ring: "While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
Belenos the Bad:      So Sauron thought things through more carefully
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So maybe Sauron merely wanted to be the vehicle of order, even if that was order out of chaos.
Belenos the Bad:      well i'm sure at some point Melkor must have convinced him how things were at that time were wrong and had to be changed... and that Sauron would help bring order from that change?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  nod nod nod
Belenos the Bad:      gosh, how many times have we heard that througout history?... we must tear down the existing corruption and build a brave new world..
Lihan Taifun:             :P
AelKennyr Rhiano:  With brave new leaders, and a new world order.
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Belenos the Bad grins
AelKennyr Rhiano:  That is why I said I thought that Tolkien may have been commenting upon his times.
Lihan Taifun:             that must have been in him mind, at least
Lihan Taifun:             Certainly one of the obvious bad guys of his time was obsessed with order
Belenos the Bad nods.. I think you may be right... or giving his characters motives his readers could relate to
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And so was English society, too.
Lihan Taifun:             yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Everything and everyone in their place.
Belenos the Bad:      <--- is glad she is not english
{People have to leave. Farewells.}

Saturday, July 23, 2011

Quenya Lesson 9 — Cases — Nominative, Accusative, and Dative

< Lesson 8     
Lihan Taifun (teaching)
Rhûn Darkmoon
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano


Cases” are modifications (mostly endings) added to nouns to either:
  •  indicate their function in a sentence. (English does this strictly by word order.)
  •  indicate a relationship: “of”, “from”, “to”, “in”, “because of”. (English does this with prepositions.)

This week we start with the “cases” that indicate parts of a sentence (subject, direct objecet, and indirect object).


Quick grammar review:
    Subject of a sentence: who or what is doing something.
    Direct object: who or what something is being done to.
    Indirect object: who or what is receiving the result. (This can often be rephrased as “to” or “for”.)

          Nolë gives Elenwë the book.
               subject: Nolë
               direct object: the book
               indirect object: Elenwë
               (Notice that this sentence is equivalent to “Nolë gives the book to Elenwë.)

(your turn:)
          Estelin cooks noodles.
          Estelin cooks everyone dinner.
          Find Maisy!
          Bring me my cloak!
          Nolë brings Maisy to Olwë.
          Nolë brings Maisy her breakfast.

The first two were easy.
“Estelin” subject; “noodles” direct object
“Estelin” subject; “dinner” direct object; “everyone” indirect object

The third and fourth are tricky, because commands frequently do not state the subject (violating the rule that a sentence always has at least a subject and a verb!). Commands usually imply a subject “you”. (“You find Maisy!”)
“Find” is the verb. Think about “who is going to do the finding?”; that will be the subject. “Who is going to be found?”; that will be the dirct object.
(subject “you” implied); “Maisy” direct object

English does have a small relic of “cases” in the pronouns. “I”, “he”,“she”, “we”, and “they” are used only for subjects, while “me”, “him”,“her”, “us”, and “them” are used for other parts of the sentence.


In Quenya:
Subject will be in Nominative case.
This is the form we have been working with already.
     singular: basic, uninflected, dictionary form
     plural:    -r after vowel except ;
                     -r after - ;
                     replace -i with -ë ;
                     -i after consonant

Direct Object will be in Accusative case
     In modern (Third/Fourth Age) Middle Earth Quenya, this is the same as Nominative. That is why we have, in previous weeks, been using direct objects and not worrying forming a “case” for them.
     In archaic and Valinorian Quenya (This is the form used in ancient Quenya, old books, and possibly modern Aman and Alqualondë):
          singular: lengthen the ending vowel (add accent);
                           If the word ends in a consonant, there is no change.
         plural: replace with ;
                      after other vowel add -i;
                      after consonant add

Indirect Object will be in Dative case
     singular: after a vowel add  n;
                      after a consonant add -en
     plural: add -in
                 (For words ending in , replace with -in)

parma      (book)
                     singular        plural
nominative   parma      parmar
accusative     parma      parmar      (Third Age)
                        parmá      parmai      (Valinorian)
dative             parman   parmain

lassë      (leaf)
                     singular        plural
nominative   lassë            lassi
accusative     lassë            lassi     (Third Age)
                        lassé            lassí     (Valinorian)
dative             lassen         lassin

Atan      (Human)
                     singular        plural
nominative   Atan           Atani
accusative     Atan           Atani      (Third Age)
                        Atan           Ataní     (Valinorian)
dative             Atanen      Atanin

(your turn)
Remember our examples:
     Estelin cuts an apple.     Estelin rista orva.
     Estelin and Apakenwë cut apples.     Estelin ar Apakenwë ristar orvar.
These are in the Third Age form. How would they be different in archaic/Valinorian style?

“Estelin” subject; “rista” verb; “orva” direct object
“Estelin” is in ordinary nominative, so there is no change.
“orva” is in accusative. In Third Age, that is the same as the nominative. In ancient/Valinorian/Alqualondë Quenya, "singular: lengthen the ending vowel (add accent)" ––> orvá
Estelin rista orvá.

In the plural, replace -ë with -í; after other vowel add -i ––> orvai
Estelin ar Apakenwë ristar orvai.


This is a difficult topic for native speakers of English.

One advantage, however, of a language that uses cases is that word order becomes much less important. “Orvá rista Estelin” can still only mean “Estelin cuts an apple”, since “orvá” is in accusative case and must be the direct object. This should be an advantage to poets. Try to keep adjectives next to the noun they are describing; beyond that, the word order is not critical.

You can do that a little bit in English. “To Valimar sailed we in the autumn” sounds a bit stilted and “poetic”, but it is comprehensible. It helps that there is no other meaning you could accidentally get by rearranging those words.


(more practice)
jewel    mírë
ship      cirya
home   mar
my       -(i)nya     (add this before the case ending)

Find _____!     Á hirë _______!
I see ____.     Cenen _____.
Give ____!     Á anta _______!

Find a jewel!
Find jewels!

I see a ship.
I see ships.
I see home.
I see homes.
I see my home.

Give Maisy to Olwë!
Give Maisy an apple!

> Lesson 10    

Wednesday, July 6, 2011


Hojo Warf
Rhûn Darkmoon
Fifi Wickentower   
Lihan Taifun           
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Jorgio Vaher           

Notecard "Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron" for background reading.

Melkor had weakened himself so much that, by the War of Wrath, he could not shift out of his physical form, nor could he create a new body after his body was killed. Would his exile into the Void make him stronger or weaker? As far as we know, only evil Ainur lose their powers. Would anything, other than turning back to good, restore those powers?

We don't know whether there was ever a time, before Creation, when Melkor was “good”. If he was always “evil”, does that mean Eru created him that way, needing a “dark” to contrast with the “light”?

Sauron “knew more about the Song than Melkor” because Melkor wasn't really paying attention to the Song; he was just trying to drown it out.

Metaphysical discussion about whether individual free choice necessarily implies a good/evil duality.

Lihan Taifun:            did everyone get the notecard I sent out for this week? "Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron". it would have come with the group notices. Now this notecard was taken from notes JRRT wrote long after Lord of the Rings, so we don't know how much of this was in his mind at the time, and how much is later musings

AelKennyr Rhiano:  Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': Does this mean that since he is now in the void, he cannot do as other Valar and take on a physical form?
Lihan Taifun:            I took that to mean that he was stuck in that physical form, which was why it was possible to "take him prisoner"
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'That is what it says in the second to last paragraph also
Lihan Taifun:            although, if he isn't strong enough to change his form, that would be related to not being strong enough to take a new form
AelKennyr Rhiano:  That was my thought, too. Would the time in the void, separated from the physical world, could that act in a way as a restorative? Reconnect him in an odd with his spiritual nature?
Lihan Taifun:            that seems remarkably fast, for someone of Melkor's strength to lose it so quickly
Lihan Taifun:            do we have any idea what restores the strength of Ainur?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'The song?'
Fifi Wickentower:    the song didn't really create the ainur . . . they sang it to manifest creation/arda
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well, if he had, indeed, allowed himself to pass into the physical constituents of the Earth as described, then I have to wonder if then being separated from it has any effect that may actually renew him as an Ainur.
Hojo Warf:                His power was disseminated into Middle-Earth so he himself had become rather small and we can assume that much of that power was destroyed in the war
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'But have we not spoken when planning the role play the the song might help restore those affected by the dark magics? Are we planning wrong?
Fifi Wickentower:    it might aid in taking a corporeal form. he is not created by the Song
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Indeed, Hojo, but energy is neither created nor destroyed but exists eternally.
Fifi Wickentower:    he was a Singer . .he element of disharmony and counterpoint
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'No, no, my lady, you mistake me. Lady Lihan asked what might restore strength to an Ainu.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Fifi is right. He is a singer, So how is it that Sauron new more of the Song?
Fifi Wickentower:    the song i see as restoratove at the end . . or maybe in small pars to aid in the healing of arda itself
Lihan Taifun:            we have commented before that only the evil AInur seem to lose their ability to take form
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Fifi Wickentower:    XD !LOL! ‚òÖ abuse the power and you lose it 'abuse it and lose it ;)
Lihan Taifun:            ((remember not everyone here is in Fourth Age, so we don't want to get too heavy into plot questions right now))
AelKennyr Rhiano:  right
Fifi Wickentower:    yep
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'I understand. It was not my intent to do so.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But it is an interesting thought.
Lihan Taifun:            if evil diminishes an Ainu's powers, would not turning back to good restore them?
Fifi Wickentower:    that would be the healing, would it not?
Hojo Warf:                Why would evil diminish an Ainu's powers?
Fifi Wickentower:    we are pre-supposing that mel is not created evil and thus has a way back from the dark
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well, I think that we could point to that as an analogy to the concept of the "fallen angels" in Christian mythology, who were originally pure, but followed Lucifer."
Fifi Wickentower:    including ole lu himself :) hubris . that and pride cause the 'fall'
Hojo Warf:                Melkor was an agent of discord even in the great song. Others were persuaded from good to his side but he was never on the "good" side.
Fifi Wickentower:    it came out in the Song . .we have no way of knowing if he showed tendancies prior
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But that still does not answer why Sauron knew more of the music than Melkor.
Fifi Wickentower:    because he was paying attention :D?
Lihan Taifun:            Melkor was hardly paying attention to "the song" at all, he was singing his own stuff
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Ahhhh
Lihan Taifun:            so, did we decide that we don't know whether Melkor was ever "good"?
Fifi Wickentower:    only illuvatar knows, so yes? maybe he was created with the seed of discord or maybe it is a crack in illuvatar's vision itself
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And so are we saying that Sauron is wiser here, because he both knew more of the song and did not act out of pride in that early time?
Fifi Wickentower:    i think so ael
Hojo Warf:                I think evil was part of the plan. There are no heroes without heroic deeds to overcome adversity. I think Melkor was created evil.
Fifi Wickentower:    we will ever know . .but to speculate is fun
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Perhaps it is necessary for balance?'
Lihan Taifun:            if all the Ainur were "born of the thought of Iluvatar", it is hard to imagine Iluvatar slipping up so badly
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I don't think Melkor was evil. I think Melkor was necessary.
Fifi Wickentower:    we are putting qualities and values from a vantage of how it is in arda/earth. the Ainur do not live in that realm. the good/bad has played out in the created worlds
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But they do, don't they? In a way? "As above, so below??"
Fifi Wickentower:    unknown . . . .could be part of a great experiment known only to illuvatr
Hojo Warf:                I don't know if balance is the right word. The world has more good than evil at most times.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods at Hojo, 'I do not mean it created an even balance of good and evil, but rather the evil was necessary for the good to be known for what it was. It was the balance of knowledge and understanding rather than balance of good and evil.'
Hojo Warf:                nods at Rhun. Not sure what Ael said.
Fifi Wickentower:    we re still responding as in a world of duality ie: balance/good-bad/light-dark/polarities . . . .these are not necessarily a part of Aman. that was the marvel of Arda and the creation
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But why would it not be? How it not be?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'But they are not necessarily not, either, Lady Fifi.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It must have that potential.
Hojo Warf:                certainly creation and destruction are more concrete ways to put it.
Fifi Wickentower:    maybe . . .but unknowable and always in the realm of 'belief'. and discussions are so interesting
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think Melkor and Sauron, and to a less degree, Aule, are proof that duality exists in Aman. And we should include Osse as well.
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles, 'I believe that is the whole point of discussions, not to state what it known but to ponder and think on what is not.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well said, Rhun.
Lihan Taifun:            why are they examples of duality?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Because they all demonstrate the capacity for good and for ill.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, they do.'
Fifi Wickentower:    yes . . examples of individuality but . . . ?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'My Lady, Melkor, Sauron and even Aule I can understand but.. Osse? Would you enlighten me?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Osse was swayed by Melkor for a brief time and disobeyed Ulmo.
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Ahh, thank you. I had not known that.'
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles. So even mighty Aule has the seeds of discord though disobedience. as did the Maiar Osse
Lihan Taifun:            I can see them as examples of individuality and individual capacity for choice. I am not sure I see them as illustrating that a good/evil duality is what is going on
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Does not choice imply a duality though? After all, otherwise what is one choosing from?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Free will is always about duality
Lihan Taifun:            what about a continuous spectrum? Why does choice imply duality? There is chocolate and vanilla, and strawberry too
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But wasn't the first choice to have ice cream or not ? Consider this: if there did not exist duality in the Ainur, then how does that duality, which is found in the Children of Illuvatar exists?
Rhûn Darkmoon smiles at Ael, 'yes, what he said.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We have to also ask another question...Is duality truly a matter of yes/ no, on/off, or is our limited perception?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'It could easily be on a sliding scale, rather than a direct on/off switch. Good, bad and all shades of both in between.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So, looked at that way, Lihan, you have a very valid point about the ice cream.
Hojo Warf:                But still two poles are implied.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  They implied, but we "assume a shift to one extreme or another, and that may be an incorrect assumption.
Jorgio Vaher:            hello, am I intruding?
Hojo Warf:                I think the word duality just recognizes the existence of the poles. It doesn't demand that everyone be at one pole or the other.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh not at all
AelKennyr Rhiano:  hi :)
Rhûn Darkmoon thinks, 'Yes, they are implied, but no I do not think there was always a shift from one extreme to the other. For instance, by being impatient and making the Dwarves, Aule slide on the scale towards the evil, but did not go to the extreme.
{Greetings for Jorgio.}
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Is this your first time here?
Hojo Warf:                This is a Tolkien discussion group. You are welcome to join in or listen if you like.
Lihan Taifun:            ((meanwhile William Shrinshee sends his regrets. He got caught in another meeting that ran overtime.))

Lihan Taifun:            We were discussing Sauron, and whether he was always evil
Lihan Taifun:            and then got onto the nature of evil
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oops...heh heh. yes...we were getting very metaphysical.
Fifi Wickentower:    nod nod nod
Jorgio Vaher:            Im nor very knowledgable about the Tolkirn worlds
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Are you familar with Tolkien, Jorgio?
Jorgio Vaher:            I read some of the Silmarillion
Fifi Wickentower:    all we need are a few words to start and then off we go!!!!
AelKennyr Rhiano:  not us! :P
Fifi Wickentower:    in only the best way!!! ;D
Jorgio Vaher:            and some of the Hobbit, but I haven't been able to set it out in my mind
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Did you watch the LOTR movies?
Fifi Wickentower:    that is why we meet weekly to discuss and go in depth :)
Lihan Taifun:            or go off on tangents :)
Fifi Wickentower:    all good . . . love the tangents
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Me? Tangents?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods at Fifi's words.
Jorgio Vaher:            it doesn't count that I saw the movies, they probly don't represent what Tolkien was trying to say
Lihan Taifun:            a sensible fellow -- doesn't trust the movies!
Hojo Warf:                The real benefit of the silmarilion and all the back story is that it enhances your appreciation of the LOTR books as you experience them.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh, well said.
Hojo Warf:                I love the movies but Frodo and Sam never were taken to Osgiliath dammit
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Jorgio Vaher:            do you discuss canon here too ))
Fifi Wickentower:    Lihan and Ael are our experts. . .
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Me? oh. no, no... I was going to say...that you and Lihan are.
Fifi Wickentower:    i sit at the feet o the masters, figuratively speaking , f course
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, no, I am no scholar at all.
Hojo Warf:                there wer no elves at helms deep. Elrond never went to the muster by the evil mountain. ummm...
Lihan Taifun:            and if the Ringwraiths had ever known for sure where Frodo and the Ring were, the story would have ended right there, in the middle of movie #2
Rhûn Darkmoon chuckles
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yeah, Peter almost stepped in that one.
Fifi Wickentower:    Lihan is our fearless keeper of canon
Lihan Taifun:            :P head full of trivia
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'She is our beautiful keeper of canon.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  She is our true scholar.
{Hojo needs to leave. Farewells.}
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Shall we continue this next week.
Fifi Wickentower:    the best kind of trivia . . I would like to formally thank you and ael for the incredible amount i have learned in the past few years
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, Fifi, I learn from you, too
Lihan Taifun:            yeah, I thought Fifi was one of the experts
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes!
Jorgio Vaher:            do you have regular discussions here?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes...we do :)
Lihan Taifun:            every week, Wednesday nights, 7 pm
Jorgio Vaher:            on Wednesday nights? cool; would you mind if I drop in when I can?
Lihan Taifun:            please do!
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes, please !

{The group for getting announcements about meetings is J.R.R. Tolkien Discussion Group. It is open enrollment.}