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Tuesday, July 26, 2011

Sauron, continued

Lihan Taifun            
Rajani Milton          
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Shawn Daysleeper 
Belenos the Bad     (belenosstormchaser.magic)

Future meetings will be the first Tuesday of each month, 7 pm slt, starting September 6.

Sauron was the bad guy in the Second and Third Ages, famous for making the One Ruling Ring. He is the one portrayed in The Movies as a flaming eye.

Sauron was originally called Mairon, a Maia of Aulë, so he was always a technology guy. He turned early to become a follower of Melkor/Morgoth. A number of other Maiar, including the Balrogs, followed Melkor at the same time.

Sauron was Melkor/Morgoth's right-hand Maia throughout the First Age. Luthien had an encounter with Sauron, on her way to confront Morgoth.

Strangely, there is no record of where Sauron was or what he was doing during the War of Wrath, when Melkor was defeated. We wonder whether he was already concentrating on saving his own skin.

Gandalf, and all the Five Wizards, were Maiar. Gandalf's original name was Olorin. Manwë requested him to be one of the Wizards; he also had some connection to Nienna, and to Estë. Saruman/Curumo, another technology guy, was another Maia of Aulë. Gandalf was at first reluctant to take the job, because he thought he was not powerful enough to battle Sauron.

Sauron was attracted to Morgoth by the idea of control and order – a strong leader who could keep everyone in line. This is similar to Saruman's and Galadriel's temptations: “if we had power, we could fix everything”. Tolkien may have been commenting on his own times, and the urge to tear down institutions in the name of “fixing things”. Certainly one of the infamous bad guys of his era was obsessed with “order”.

Tarrega:                     Vedui' (Greetings)
Shawn Daysleeper:  hello :)
Tarrega:                     I'll be back!
Lihan Taifun:             we can give her a minute
Lihan Taifun:             back
Lihan Taifun:             we were talking about Sauron; maybe this would be a good time to talk about scheduling
Lihan Taifun:             what's he done now?
Belenos the Bad:      now he was the guy who was only the flaming eye in the movies, yes?
Lihan Taifun:             yes
Belenos the Bad:      ok..:)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             the bad guy, in the Second and Third Ages
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:             famous for making the One Ruling Ring
Belenos the Bad:      aha.. :)
Lihan Taifun:             is Tuesday nights a good time for people?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It is for me :)
Lihan Taifun:             I was thinking once a month might work better for us
Belenos the Bad:      me too.. :)
Lihan Taifun:             we have been so busy with the RP
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Would Quenya still be weekly, Lihan?
Belenos the Bad throws heself at lihan's feet in gratitude.. yes!!!
Lihan Taifun:             I was thinking of Quenya still weekly
Belenos the Bad:      it's so hard for me to get to everything I want to get to... but if the discussion were once a month I could slot it in for sure.. :)
Shawn Daysleeper:  yes once a month is ok
Lihan Taifun:             I have a conflict on second Tuesdays of the month
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think with all we have going on, we could do better justice to the Discussion if it were once a month.
Belenos the Bad:      so make it the first tuesday of the month?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We really dedicate ourselves to such a great deal of education.
Lihan Taifun:             You do seem to do quite a lot!
Lihan Taifun:             "first Tuesday" is easy to remember
Belenos the Bad nods.. yes, it is
Lihan Taifun:             starting in September; we won't do one next week
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:             ok, great. so, Sauron; originally one of Aule's Maiar
Lihan Taifun:             *nods*
Belenos the Bad:      the jewelery turned bad guy
Lihan Taifun:             though quickly turned to Melkor
Lihan Taifun:             there is no record of where he was during the War of Wrath that brought down Melkor
Lihan Taifun:             hmm
Lihan Taifun:             so you wonder if he was already thinking more of saving his own skin
Belenos the Bad:      was he on melkor's side at that point?
Lihan Taifun:             he HAD been Melkor's right-hand Maia
Lihan Taifun:             That was after most of the wars between Melkor and the Elves and the Humans, right?
Lihan Taifun:             so, I find it strange that he is never mentioned during that war
Lihan Taifun:             I seem to recall Luthien fighting Sauron. It seems like the evil guys didn't show much loyalty to each other
Lihan Taifun:             yes, Luthien fought Sauron, on her way to Melkor
Belenos the Bad:      wait.. Luthien could fight?
Lihan Taifun:             welcome back, Tarrega
Tarrega:                     Thank you!
Shawn Daysleeper:  smiles
Belenos the Bad:      please take a seat and join us.. *smiles*
Tarrega:                     ...nice to meet you all
Lihan Taifun:             Luthien, as I recall, used more magic than weapons
Belenos the Bad nods.. ahhh.. ok
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Sauron was one of Aule's Maiar's, correct?
Lihan Taifun:             right
Lihan Taifun:             originally
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Right
Shawn Daysleeper:  leave it to Aule hehe
Belenos the Bad:      LOL.. Poor aule
Lihan Taifun:             yeah! had Melkor gone bad, by the time Sauron joined him, do you think?
Lihan Taifun:             I thought Melkor had gone bad by the time of the Great Song
Belenos the Bad:      but sauron wasn't the only of his maiar to go bad either was he?
Lihan Taifun:             hmm, I think a bunch of them did. whose were the Balrogs originally? Yeah, I think so
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Wasn't one of the Balrogs Nienna's? I mean, before they were Melkor's
Lihan Taifun:             The Balrogs were Melkors
Tarrega:                     the Balrogs were maiars?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes
Lihan Taifun:             yes they were
Lihan Taifun:             that was one of our characters, Ael, but we have no record of who they belonged to before they joined Melkor
AelKennyr Rhiano:  ok
Lihan Taifun:             that would be fun to run with in RP, hmm
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But now Sauron was originally called Mairon, right?
Lihan Taifun:             right, they were called the Valaraukar at one point, I think, the flames of the Valar...before they went evil (the Balrogs)
Lihan Taifun:             Oh was he? Hmm
Tarrega:                     Gandolf was also a Maiar...?!?
Lihan Taifun:             yes, Gandalf was
Tarrega:                     who did he serve?
Lihan Taifun:             I should know this...
AelKennyr Rhiano:  He was under Nienna
Lihan Taifun:             Manwe, I think. Although he spent some time with Nienna
Tarrega:                     ah....
AelKennyr Rhiano:  no, no. He was your Maia, Lihan. AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Lihan Taifun:             I seem to recall he spent time with Estë and Irmo as well
AelKennyr Rhiano:  He lived in the gardens of Irmo. yes, nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun:             that may be one of those points where Tolkien wrote several versions, in different places
Lihan Taifun:             I know it says he "learned pity and patience" from Nienna, which I always thought must have come in useful later, as Gandalf
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Manwe was the one who wanted to send Gandalf, Olorin, to Middle Earth to assist those who opposed Sauron. Gandalf did not want to go because he was afraid he was not mighty enough to face Sauron.
Lihan Taifun:             you can tell he had a quite different personality from, say, Saruman
Lihan Taifun:             yes, even when he was grumpy
Shawn Daysleeper:  Aule sent Saruman I believe
Lihan Taifun:             (I'd be grumpy too if I'd had to be an old man for several hundred years )
Tarrega:                     smiles
Lihan Taifun:             Saruman, with his interest in technology, seems like an Aule type
Lihan Taifun:             He does. Didn't they agree to send emissaries (the Istari) and then argued over who to send?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes.
Lihan Taifun:             Curumo/Saruman was an obvious choice, but Olorin/Gandalf was added on at the end, after the others
Lihan Taifun:             but he did the best job
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:             he did
Shawn Daysleeper:  you must had been a good teacher, Nienna
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Now, the reason that Melkor was able to corrupt Sauron...
Lihan Taifun:             hmmmm
Lihan Taifun:             I read somewhere that Sauron liked "order", a strong leader, who could keep everyone in line
Lihan Taifun:             Melkor was good at promising people things
Lihan Taifun:            
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes, I read that, too.
Lihan Taifun:             Mmmm, that sounds right
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And Melkor could give the appearance of order and control, couldn't he?
Lihan Taifun:             Which...isn't that the same temptation Galadriel had with the Ring? I will put everything right! Fix it and make it all run properly
Lihan Taifun:             and what Saruman said to himself, "I can keep Sauron in line"
Lihan Taifun:             ooh, yes
Tarrega:                     With your permission I will go now. Thank you for your hospitality. "A'a orne Yavanna t're le" (May Yavanna's Trees watch over you)
AelKennyr Rhiano:            Sére ar alasse
AelKennyr Rhiano:          (Peace and joy)
AelKennyr Rhiano:        ar saila, m√¢lon!
AelKennyr Rhiano:    (and wisdom, friend!)
Lihan Taifun:             nice meeting you
Lihan Taifun:             Namarie, Tarrega
Belenos the Bad:      well.. that was a brief visit
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Wasn't it?

AelKennyr Rhiano:  No...Tolkien was pretty masterful with the corruption of Sauron, and it was a great statement of his sentiment of his time.
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Sauron as Mairon wanted above all else order, hated waste, yet he chose to follow Melkor, who was all about waste, destruction and chaos.
Lihan Taifun:             Sauron must have been in a bit of an authoritarian mindset to get into that
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Absolutely.
Belenos the Bad:      but was he into waste, destruction and chaos for their own sake, or for his purpose?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, good question!
Belenos the Bad:      I mean, he wanted to rule, yes?... so he'd want to destroy what the others had built.. but did he then have a long term plan for his own world?
Lihan Taifun:             I think he started out with it being for a purpose, and ended up being just for fun
Lihan Taifun:             who? Sauron, or Melkor?
Belenos the Bad:      Melkor?
Lihan Taifun:             either, both
Belenos the Bad:      yes.. you'd think they'd both have had to have sought the same thing
Lihan Taifun:             I had the impression Melkor was more into destruction, and Sauron more into ruling
Belenos the Bad:      but would not that have conflicted in the end? if melkor destroyed everything what would be left to rul ?
Lihan Taifun:             though that might have been Tolkien thinking about it later, rather than what he was thinking while he was writing
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Or was it that the longer Sauron followed Melkor, the less he cared about order and the more about power itself?
Belenos the Bad:      i'm asking because I'm trying to figure out what drew Sauron to Melkor in the first place..
Belenos the Bad:      that's possible too, Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano:  We have seen many who came to a love of power because they equated control with order.
Lihan Taifun:             I imagine that Melkor didn't tell Sauron everything at first; yes
Belenos the Bad:      thinking they were the only ones who knew the solution and could do it right, huh?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And we must remember that Sauron was very faithful to Melkor. He didn't seek to supplant Melkor, did he?
Belenos the Bad:      could a maia supplant an Ainu?
Lihan Taifun:             hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Oh, another good question. But wouldn't the better question be: could a Maia conceive of supplanting an Ainu?
Lihan Taifun:             well, Melkor promised Ulmo's positon to Osse, but we don't know whether Melkor could or would have delivered
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Your question makes me wonder if Sauron could even conceive of rebllion.
Belenos the Bad grins.. well.. Eonwe concieved of putting sword to the throat of one?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  in the rp. heh heh heh
Belenos the Bad:      hehe.. yeah I know..
Shawn Daysleeper:  I think Melkor attracted these maia because of promises of power
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Good point, Shawn
Belenos the Bad:      yeah, the eternal, 'why should we be lesser and not have the same power as those' which often drives such behaviour
AelKennyr Rhiano:  in Morgoth's ring: "While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
Belenos the Bad:      So Sauron thought things through more carefully
AelKennyr Rhiano:  So maybe Sauron merely wanted to be the vehicle of order, even if that was order out of chaos.
Belenos the Bad:      well i'm sure at some point Melkor must have convinced him how things were at that time were wrong and had to be changed... and that Sauron would help bring order from that change?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  nod nod nod
Belenos the Bad:      gosh, how many times have we heard that througout history?... we must tear down the existing corruption and build a brave new world..
Lihan Taifun:             :P
AelKennyr Rhiano:  With brave new leaders, and a new world order.
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Belenos the Bad grins
AelKennyr Rhiano:  That is why I said I thought that Tolkien may have been commenting upon his times.
Lihan Taifun:             that must have been in him mind, at least
Lihan Taifun:             Certainly one of the obvious bad guys of his time was obsessed with order
Belenos the Bad nods.. I think you may be right... or giving his characters motives his readers could relate to
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And so was English society, too.
Lihan Taifun:             yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Everything and everyone in their place.
Belenos the Bad:      <--- is glad she is not english
{People have to leave. Farewells.}