This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

The discussion group continues to meet
in Second Life in Alqualonde the Swanhaven. Contact AelKennyr Rhiano in Second Life.

Wednesday, December 16, 2009

"The Hunt for Gollum" Webmovie

extracts from the Timeline  (Appendix B of Lord of the Rings)
  • Gollum is released from Mordor; Aragorn finally tracks him down in the Dead Marshes, and brings him as a captive to King Thranduil's halls in Mirkwood
  • The Ringwraiths are given the task of retrieving the One Ring;
  • April 11 - Gandalf reaches Hobbiton. He returns to the Shire, telling Frodo Baggins he must take the Ring away
  • July 10 - Saruman imprisons Gandalf in Orthanc
  • September 18 - Gandalf escapes from Orthanc
  • September 23 - Frodo leaves Bag End
  • September 30 - Aragorn meets Frodo Baggins in the Inn of the Prancing Pony in Bree.

Tolkien Discussion Group
December 16, 2009
Topic: The Hunt for Gollum Webmovie
in Alqualondë
AelKennyr Rhiano
Dominique Darkwatch
Lihan Taifun
Aredhel Glendale

Please, everyone pull up a cushion
Fifi you look so christmasy
Thank you :)) tis the season for th colors :)
I have Chirstmassy ball gowns ... but not quite what we need tongiht
I want to wear all my beautiful Christnas ball gowns :D
Well, it is not too late
We need a dress-up day?
nod nod nod
Dress-up day too lol
Maybe Fi will play Santa again for us
I didn't get to sit in her lap
Neither did I

Music Videos DSL Records Videobox: Hunt for Gollum 39min
Want me to find the url for you, my could watch on youtube?
We will wait until everyone has finished watching it before we discuss it :)

What did you guys think of the film?
I love the locations
I was thinkingthe forests looked like Wales
Very well done
I have seen it before... It is fine. I like it. But I am looking forward to see the another one.
Are they going to do more?
There is another group and they are profesional, did
Have you heard about them?
Please, tell us more?
I am not sure, but I suppose topic is about Rhovanion, or Gondor village maybe.: It is done in Autumn or maybe will be soon...
We will have to be on the watch for that.
Because it is much MORE than this one and this one is well done.
wow I thought this one is very impressive
This one was very good
I can make a wiev if I found it somewhere... on net. Because I don't remember name of it, but perhaps will be able to find it...
yes, Aredhel, if you find it please tell us!
I will.

Everyone caught how that notice was run before the movie?
There was a notice at the beginning about the Tolkien estate
Yes- but i would need to pause and go close to read
I heard they did have an "understanding " with the Tolkien estate, that they wouldn't get in trouble for making the movie, as long as they didn't sell it

What has happened to our Bilbo?? Is he on walk-about?
*our* Bilbo?
There was Bilbo in Arda
I haven't seen him in ages
I heard rumors of unhappy romances -- rumors, so who knows the truth?
aww . . . just seems odd with no hobbits around ^^
I heard the same and had reason to believe the rumors had some truth
Well, there are hobbits

Well, dear companions, I have found it. Shall we do projection another evening? and if possible sooner or later? because my time zone...
Yes, please let's

So - this was depicting the first time gollum was captured?
Occasionally one finds his or her way here, but they are not living in Arda
There are hobbits?
Kath has hobbits
I saw one once in Oiolaire
I thought you have many of them :o) It is very popular race...
They are mostly merchants, I believe
They like cake too, lol
and party's with lots of yummy food
But Kath can't use the name "hobbit", because of copyright issues
aaahhhh - remember some of that coming up in the past
Or maybe they are here somewhere but enjoy almoust peaceful life, opulent diners a village festivals ;o)
Actually, it is totally nonsense to see hobit in Alqualonde, such long way from the Shire? Oh, no, who can be such a fool to go somewhere? ;) if you can just stay where you are...
I don't know about total nonsense, but the hobbit would be an usual one, and probably related to Bilbo
It was always strange to have hobbits in the Undying Lands
You know, breakfast, second breakfast, cake, biscuits, it is qute heavy for wandering...
Maybe he travels from house to house, visiting his friends
That's why bilbo was so different

{The last person finishes watching the video.}
It was really quite good.
So this was still the third age, right?
Yes, this was just before events in Lord of the Rings. Well, obviously, Aragorn was in the story
Yes, Bilbo was "strange" hobbit. Another hobits were thinking he is... you know... little bit :)
because he wasn't content to stay home and garden
Now, the simarils, they factor into the 4th age, right?
To me, it takes place perhaps while Ghandalf is on his way toward Gondor after he is ware of the ring's presence
at theCouncil of Elrond, Aragorn tells about capturing Gollum, and he finds out from the elves that Gollum escaped again
It is in book somewhere. Gandalf did the same as in the film, was watching and made a decision - Gollum's soul is lost, but he will have a place in story.
You remember at the end of this movie, Gandalf says that Frodo needs to leave the Shire
But I am not sure, If there was something about Aragorn's Hunt. Elves were captured gollum, I think.
So Frodo already has the ring
During this film? I'm not sure I got that?
Yes, that is what Gandalf was saying
Did I miss something? oops, I thought it was Bilbo
At the end, Gandalf is saying Frodo isn't safe
There was a gap... between a celebraton of birthay, when is Bilbo leaving...and giving ring to Frodo.
I read some of the Utube comments that also brought that up
I thought that during the events of the movie the Ring had changed hands
That makes sense
In the book Frodo has a ring in Shire for some time. few months or years...
In the book, it was years between the birthday party and when Frodo leaves
Yes, so this story probably happens in those years
and the shadow is becoming bigger so he have to go to Rivendell...
and now Gandalf is worried, and goes to warn Frodo to leave
and after that Gandalf decides to visit Frodo... and there is scene with a ring and the fire in the film...
That is after he comes back from reading the tale of it...."Keep it secret, keep it safe"
and he read that after the birthday party
Which he suspected after touching it and seeing the eye of flame
Reading that paper, in Gondor, he knew about the writing on the One Ring. Then he wanted to go back and test Frodo's ring in the fire, and the writing was there, so Gandalf knew Frodo's rring was the One Ring
oh, I see... and the fire scene is before film or after?
hmmm, close to the same time. We need the timeline in the back of the book
AelKennyr Rhiano gave you The Ages of Tolkien. Does that help?
year 3017 Gollum is captured by Aragorn
Too many English for me to keep conversation. So I left it for another, now.
So exactly Aragorn was captured him... hmmmm :o)
Yes, Aragorn captured him. The elves kept him, after that
That part I do remember
April of year 3018 Gandalf talks to Frodo -- that would be the "fire scene"
So, Aragorn captures Gollum, then Gandalf goes to Gondor and reads the story, then Gandalf goes to Frodo. That all happens in less than a year
How long was it when the barkeep had last seen Gandalf in Bree?
In the book, Frodo does not leave right away. Ffrom the timeline, it looks like probably about 3 months since Gandalf was in Bree
That seems to be when Ghandalf sends Aragorn to find Gollum
According to the timeline, Aragorn was hunting Gollum the year before. 3017 Gollum is released after several years captive in Mordor. He is soon located and captured by Aragorn, who takes him north to the Woodland Realm.
Gandalf travels to Minas Tirith, and there discovers the Scroll of Isildur.
3018 12 April Gandalf returns to the Shire to warn Frodo about the Ring.
23 September Frodo, Sam and Pippin set out from Bag End.
29 September Frodo and his companions arrive at the Prancing Pony in Bree, and meet Strider.
Midyear's Day Gandalf encounters Radagast near Bree, and is given Saruman's message.

Either everyone is asleep, or reading their notecard
Well, we know Jackson and his writers took some liberties with the movies for pacing reasons
Reading nc - but also get confused between movie and book
True, in the movie things have to happen faster
That happens alot in movies
It isn't scary in the movie if the hobbits get to the ferry an hour before the BlackRiders
I thought "Hunt for Gollum" tried to follow the movie more closely
I thought it tried to bridge the two, the book and the movie
and I think they did a good job
Here, Strider sees and fights a black rider
I thought they did a good job of matching both the book and the movie
Tolkien didn't tell very much detail about Aragorn and his hunt, so they could put what they liked into this movie
but they blended it in well
and the style looked like the style of the movie
The fight with the black rider doesn't quite fit, but it is a good scene and well done
And if one had no background and were to see it . . . well done
and we were tired of Viggo Mortenson anyway
no, we weren't
after 15 minutes, I was
But I don't like this Arwen, sorry :O)
That was an awkward scene
They just wanted to do an Arwen scene
hmmm, just like Peter Jackson ...
"strange accent"and the flower in the hand... do you remember Aniron scene ... :/
Well, if they are trying it into the movie... I guess they felt they had to do one scene
even if it was almost the same scene as the movie
it is...

{Lihan crashes and relogs.}

So you revert to a scene from the movie, and try to tie it in?
What was the question?
There was a question?
No, we were commenting, still, on the scene with Arwen
For example... there could be scene of arwen making back bond (i mean a standarta) a flag...(sorry english) In this time she was making an embroidery of the White tree for Aragorn.
true, she is
Not very sexy, tho
What about making flag in her very-special-silk-night-gown?
The beards on the humans left a little to be desired, but other wise, the make up was good
She had a fine coach... i like it.
They did the fighting well, too
yes, they did
Oh yes, it is not easy making fight scenes they do not look funny...The locations were awesome, very well chosen
related well to the LOTR movies
except Arwen at Rivendell. That looked like a botanical garden
The movie has never matched my vision :)
oh? not at all?
How could a movie?
Fifi Wickentower: nods . . . how could it :))
And I am miserable because my visions are situated to the Silmarillion rather, and I have no film ;( no film to be angry it is bad ;)
Maybe you should make a film
I am trying :D a small one ;o)
Are there any in the making?
hmmmm..... not at all...
I just finished listening to the Christoper Lee reading of "Children of Hurin"
I like this story... almoust my the most favourite.
He does such an awesome job it is almost like a movie
Chrisopher Lee has an awesome voice
Some of the radio performances are very good
Is it for sale or free, this record?
For sale
It's not cheap, but well worth it I think
I saw the book but din't know about record yet. Thanks...
You get to hear how all the names are pronounced
Oh yes, pronounciation....
That is hardest , for me - remembering names, pronoucing etc
We have got a record of Lost Tales in my language, quite old one. And it is such a fun to follow this actress trying read names :D
Yes, so many names and places!
oh dear
and so many vowels lol
No metter how long I am interrested in Tolkien I am stil making stupid mistakes. Such yesterday. I wished "Vaire's stars take care upon you" :D (It is another Valier... not Varda)
I can't remember all the Valar!
I think it could mean "die soon" because she is queen of the death in Mandos ;)
Vaire is?
Vaire is Mandos wife
She is a giver of hope amidst sorrows
my sister-in-law, I can remember that one
but she does not measure out the length of our lives, does she?
She records the story of the lives
Your sister-in-law? help me, who are you?
Giver of hope? Isn't that Nienna? Vaire is making tapisteries...
She records history as well, right?
Aye, you are right
But don't ask me who is Tulkas' wife
and Vana is married to ...?
could be... think so.
Dominique Darkwatch looks at her cheat sheet. yes!
I'm not half way through Samarillion, so am still working on all this
It is a heavy book
By the time you get to the end, you will have forgotten who was in the beginning
I have read several times and still . . . . .
Yes, but I think important if you are trying to RP an elf!
I agree
It is a whole library
Yes, it is several stories
sure :) and repetition helps lol
And there is also problem of different versions, how J.R.R.T. was changing his mess, when you would like to know, what you character EXACTLY did...
That gets very confusing in places
*happy to be Ainur
Nienna has about 2 lines, which is 2 lines more than FIfi's character
the ocean wind speaks in other ways ^^
Well, in the Silmarillion Olwe has just one later works, he has a ton of sons
That happens, sometimes ;o) later work hrdy ;)
The sons were the result of later work? just when Olwe was glad to be rid of his wife was glad to be rid of me, too
And what about some freudian problem... I have many of them! :O)
Elves don't mind going their separae ways for a few centuries
I always felt uncomfortable with the push to take a character and instantly find another to take the rp of the mate. It felt like an arranged marriage.
Very much like an arranged marriage
It could be very uncomfortable... for both.
Fifi Wickentower: *really happy to be a wind
or..very like a dream when the right ones find themselves. I mean... usually you have a special bound with your character. Reason why you want to play it. If the second partners do the same... How we call it? Mate an archetyp? :o)
But sometimes the other person has a very different idea about how to play the character. That can be awkward
...yes, that is the risk. very often.
But that is what makes it a living thing; not so scripted
If the players can handle it well. If they don't fight about it
Does that happen often?
That people fight?
about their rp, in a couple situation, if 'forced' into a a coupleness
I think often it might become more about egos
yes, I agree
In a live RP it is quite often, I thing. Not fighting, but still very different... so noone can enjoy so much.

Aredhel, who do you rp in Arda?
Guess *big smile*
Bilbo Baggins?
Hey, she is only 1 week old!
But it doesn't mean anythig or did? :O)
You mean such enchanted meeting with Manwe Sulimo himself as I did yesterday?
May I ask if you are wanting to rp in Arda?
Dominique Darkwatch feels a bit small among all the Ainur
I'm just an elf
and royalty
and I AM an elf :D
See, how can I talk to anyone if I intimidate them all? Lihan Taifun pouts
oh, no, no, Lady...
See? now he is all "Lady" O.o
(you know I could back him into a corner, where EVERYTHING he said would be wrong) (but that would be mean of me)
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes and pouts, now
(I take lessons from a teenager)
Fifi Wickentower: *there there pats them both :)
Lihan Taifun: but teasing Ael is so much fun

Does a wind ainu get seagulls in her hair?
Mostly their feathers get blown about. Only if we get dense will stuff stick ^^

We said we would not meet again until after the new year. Is that still ok with everyone?
Al last my best conversation (except Manwe, of course) in SL until now!
I hope you join us again, Aredhel.
You, too, Dominque.

Wednesday, December 9, 2009

The Fourth Age

Tolkien Discussion Group
December 9, 2009
Topic: The Fourth Age
or "What Happens after Lord of the RIngs?"
Kratholis Vanistok
Fifi Wickentower
BelenosStormchaser Magic
Lihan Taifun
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer
AelKennyr Rhiano

wow, so many new people
I'm not in the way of anyone am I?
How nice to have two Ancients with us
You are fine, Kratholis
Although I think you just had Ael land in your stomach, Krath
Save the trouble of eating him?
hehe, would have been the first meal I've had in centuries
I must say you are looking lovely tonight Fifi.. wearing one of my favourite colours
why thank you :)
gold? heheee
not at all.. the purple. Gold is not a colour to dragons.. it's a bedding material.. :)

We were going to discuss the Fourth Age ... what happens after Lord of the Rings. Soooo, did any one look up anything? What did you find?
Everyone leaves teh theatre and goes home.. :D No.. seriously. I have a link from the Encyclopedia of Arda
Apparently there was a short time of peace
You have to get up early to out-research Fifi!
*blushes (really not a know-it-all)
According to a prophecy of Mandos following Melkor's final return and defeat in the Dagor Dagorath (Battle of Battles), the world will be changed and the Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar. Then Fëanor will be released from the Halls of Mandos and give Yavanna the Silmarils and she will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees, the Pelóri Mountains will be flattened and the light of the Two Trees will fill the world in eternal bliss.
oh - and a beautiful safe place to live very useful nod nod
Where is that prophecy recorded?
That's at the end of the fourth age, isn't it?
yes, it is
I've never heard that history ever rolled over to a 5th Age, so it must be
Isn't the 5th age our current time?
unless we are still in the 4th Age
We are in the 7th age (or maybe end of 6th)
Well, our role play is set in the beginning of the fourth age
7th age?????
How did we get to 7th age?
According to certain educated speculation ^^
I never though it went that far
The ages continued even tho the prof didn't write it all down
and to answer Lihan, that prophecy was originally recorded at the end of the Silmarillion by Tolkien
not the published version?
I thought it was?
no.. The published version had a different ending
The published Silmarillion ends instead with the recounting of the voyage of Eärendil the Mariner, but this is due to an editorial decision by Christopher Tolkien.
So while Tolkien himself intended the prophecy to be in it, his son edited it out
That happened a lot

Here is something -
Tolkien said that he thought the distance between the end of the Third Age and the 20th century A.D. was about 6000 years, and that in 1958 it should have been around the end of the Fifth Age if the Fourth and Fifth Ages were about the same length as the Second and Third Ages. He said, however, in a letter written in 1958 that he believed the Ages had quickened and that it was about the end of the Sixth Age/beginning of the Seventh.[source?]
oh interesting!
Oh, so you are talking about what age of Tolkien we are in, in Real Life years...not as regards our current role play setting
yes - in response to the earlier comment
My apologies.. I get lost when people jump from speaking in Second Life to Real Life..
Ainur are out of time, so to speak lol
jeese... that would make Kratholis one old dragon...
ancient for sure
So - fourth age . . .how do you see it for rp? the shadow? the new cult of darkness?
Does it create a problem that, 6000 years later and the prophecy of Mandos hasn't happened?
I sort of thought it would be a bit of an gradually more pervasive darkness sort of thing.. the effects of it growing as it gets closer to the last battle
So the theme is always the seed of darkness
May I ask....? What events are recorded as happening during the 4th Age that would pertain to us?
“Us” being whom, Ael?
I don't mean the little who marries whom... Ainur, elves, dragons....
Is there any more recorded of the 4th age, besides that timeline finishing up the lives of the major characters?
I have a timeline for the 4th age - would that be of interest?
That's just it, actually.. and why i suggested the fourth age for our role play. There IS no major recordings of events for anyone but hobbits
It is said that the remaining Noldor all went back to the West, and that the sons of Elrond, and Celborn stayed in Rivendell for some while longer
more freedom?
so the rest of us can pretty much do as our imagination takes us
I thought the Silmarils make another appearance?
no.. only after the Dagor Dagorath
Well that link I posted earlier has the known information in it
It doesn't say anything there about the Silmarils does it? .. *tests out her speed reading*
no....I just wanted to ask about the Silmarils
I did read something about the Silmarils - returned to Yavanna at the end of the age?
because I thought I remembered reading somewhere that they re-emerged and – yes, Fifi beat me to it
Yes.. at the end of the age I believe
or 'at the end of all ages"?
No sense from tolkien that there was such a thing
Well technically from what I've read the Dagor Dagorath IS the end of all ages. As Tolkien's works were conceived as a fictional "forgotten history" of the world, the Dagor Dagorath represents the coming End of the World, and is often referred to as simply "The End".
or a radical change, bigger than the "ages"
good point
course I'm immortal - an age is just another measurement by mortals
We turn a page on our calendars every age?
The dance through each age is basically the same
After the Dagor Dagorath, we get a new calendar entirely
I don't think Tolkien expected it all to be an 'end'.. it's just that a writer has only so much time to write so much of a story in their lifetime
The seeds of destruction grow until the 'end' and then starts a new age/chapter
Ragnarök, in Viking mythology?
I'm not familiar with it
Things get worse and worse until the great war between the gods and the demons, and then, the world starts over again, from the ashes
but all the mortal races get involved

What i notice is there is never more than a token time of peace . . always the 'shadow comes'
We were discussing the dagor dagorath
or, there is nothing to write about in the times of peace
Well yes.. a story must have action.. *chuckles*.. people get bored of reading about how happy and joyous everyone is .. *grins*
or he never got the chance to go back and write about the 4th Age.
exactly.. he left it open, at a happy stage for now.. but could have extended it further.. but as I said, a writer has limits... it's called time, age and death.. *chuckles*
He hardly had time to finish the first and second ages
So the 4th Age begins after the Defeat of Sauron.
and is dominated by humans
and hobbits.. :D
*thunks self on head "forgot" this isn't real
although I guess the Sindar are still in Middle Earth
in Middle Earth but less active in world affairs? what do you thing, Ted? It is hard to imagine the Sindar deciding to leave
leave and go where? It is the only home they have ever known. Elwe visited the West, once, long ago. No one else has even been there
Who is their king in the 4th Age?
Anyone have their family trees handy?
Ok, I have been looking that up Looks like the answer was "Elrond". So, Elrond's two sons stayed in Rivendell for a while into the 4th age, and then sailed. No record of who succeeded them. At least Elrond and his sons are the last surviving descendents of Elwe
This is what I found on the Sindar
In the third age of the Captivity of Melkor (that is, the last age of the Years of the Trees), evil things that had dwelt east of the Blue Mountains began to trouble the Sindar. At this time, they first considered the need for weapons and armour, which they had not needed before. They traded with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, and learned smithcraft from them. Thus armed, they drove the invading wolves and Orcs and other foul things from their land and had peace again, for a time.
So I tend to agree with you, Lihan, that they would probably stay.
Although ... we know that many of the elves from Rivendell DID go west. So, what does that prove Then, the elves of Mirkwood stayed
Given the Sindar nature..would they have abandoned their home?
I agree, it is hard to imagine them leaving
But who would be leading them in the 4th Age?
Maybe they were broken into smaller tribes, like the kingdom of Mirkwood? Obviously Legolas didn't inherit, but he might have had siblings or cousins.
right. Or splintered like the Teleri originally did
Yes, there might be many more small groups
That would explain all the elven clans we have in Arda.
Fifi Wickentower nods
And with the rise of mankind and all these splinter groups, it would explain the half elves
And spent less time with the humans, so perhaps spent more time with the "wild" elves -- the drow, and the others who never went to Aman, and never entered the histories, and faded from human view
Yes, I was wondering how the drow may be explained?
and night elves are different, too?
We know from canon that some elves refused the call to go to Aman, and remained in Middle Earth, and presumably were "uncivilized"
why uncivilized?
What if the drow are elves subverted by Tall, Dark, and Evil?
Well, the totally subverted became orcs, didn't they?
That's what i thought they were
but Orcs, by the 4th age would be their own race.
But quite possibly some never came under the influence of either camp, not Morgoth, and not the Valar either
The drow would be newly "recruited” elves
But never thought about drow and orcs as a progression, if both are subverted elves
I certainly wouldn't say that to the drow! I might consider them more susceptible to evil influence
But Belenos asked a good question.
no no.. I meant orcs In the fourth age..
Are they a race, you mean?
Well, weren't they Sauron's minions? So when the ring was destroyed, did they surrender and become good? Were they imprisoned? What happened to them?
I thought they went to ground.
Got loose, and became petty thugs on their own?
That's a lot of thugs to let run loose
I mean, weren't they in pitched battle at the time the One Ring was destroyed?
Orcs and Trolls fled to the far east, and never really recovered. Either during Eldarion's rule or near the end of Aragorn's, there was some talk of "Orc-cults" although these seem to have been founded and run by humans
Would the armies of the good side have just let them run off?
The armies of the good side were kinda outnumbered. As I remember, they were relieved to see the orcs run off.
Well, I am sure that not every single Orc was at the battle?
Did they just start dying off - any orc babies?BelenosStormchaser Magic: yeah, I don't seem to recall female orcs
We never really heard where they kept the female orcs. Although, could you tell, in a battle?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Without the negative food from Mordor - they would perish
Would they?
We can hope a lot of them ate each other
or would they adapt?
It seems there is a danger that some orcs survived and adapted
It would seem reasonable that enough would survive.
shakes head . . . . Going to ground seems the most likely
Perhaps the Orcs that survive without the food would not as strong?
I think there were a couple people at Bree who Our Heros suspected of being orc/human crosses, which probably isn't biologically likely ...but, who knows for sure
They gained strength from the violence they lived
orc/human crosses??.. ewww.. who would mate with an orc?
yeah, that too
on purpose, anyway
People with poor eyesight?
But haven't you ever met anyone for whom it might explain a few things?
presumably non-consensual, and Tolkien was too polite to say so
um hm
Think about it... if they fled the battle...they may have needed females to breed with to continue the race, ergo the human/orc crosses
shakes pictures out of head
We don't know all the orc warriors are male, but the point still holds.
Well, I thought I would not go and paint the complete picture.
Even a very few crosses would let the orc-ish strain get into human genetics
Ok.. so there may have been some orcs.. which would help have a little evil in the world
Yes, need some bad guys
Well, the dragons could always get hungry from time to time :D
And likewise, other baddies from Mordor might have survived
and new ones arise
like the drow
Yes, the old evil influence is still at large, even without a body
The dark gods of the drow could be the evil influence in another guise
That sounds exactly like what Morgoth would do, and Sauron
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
and Saruman, if he could get a slice of the pie for himself
I think it's Olwe.. what if Olwe became schizophrenic... good during the day and evil at night.. :D
Wait, isn't that Olwe v Elwe?
Dr Jeckle and King Olwe.. :D
Lihan Taifun ducks
BelenosStormchaser Magic coughs and clears throat.. ok.. I'll behave now
Ted is going to kick himself for sleeping through this discussion

What about the Valar during the 4th Age?
They all went to Phoenix to live on their old age pensions.. :D
With all that sun?
or was it pun lol
Isn't that where all the oldies go to live because it's cheap?
A clean double entendre?
Mighty Manwe's retirement home?
Their version of retiring to Florida
and omg, I've only just realied Phoenix = Manwe. I was referring to phoenix AZ
Fifi Wickentower: *smacks Bel
Earth calling Belanos ... You miss your own joke
Hey, it's early morning for me.. only had two coffees so far
Makes it funnier
I thought it was funny enough the thought of Vala playing bingo in Phoenix AZ actually.. :D
riding little scooters
Don't laugh lol I love Scottsdale
Yeah, that's it.. going on cruises and sipping margharitas
Hanging out by the pool with the mist
Wearing tacky hawaiian shirts
So if the Sindar and Teleri elves are not in the picture during the 4th age, that leaves the Teleri.
BelenosStormchaser Magic grins and focuses again
Where does it leave them?
hahahah *smacks ael
running cruise ships
Sail the Swansea Cruiseline
AelKennyr Rhiano hums the love boat theme
BelenosStormchaser Magic grins. They can be the masseurs and bellhops for the valar
I have pictured it being up to the Teleri to unite the various elven clans
The Teleri are back home in Alqualonde, being very bored?
Yeah, and we all know what happens when elves get bored.. especially with swans around...
Nuuuuuuuuuu That is dragons
Hey we eat them.. didn't say you'd be eating them.. *grins*
Perhaps the Teleri become known for the finest swansdown pillows and duvets
This conversation needs a reset button
reset on
LOL.. well done Fifi.. :d

So, the Teleri are bored
So, Ted, who is leading the Sindar in the 4th Age?
hmmm.. The Sindar dispersed in the second :~( where?
"dispersed" as in fractured into small tribes?
or absorbed?
yes... haha
absorbed into who?
hmm.. good question.
into whatever culture they dispersed to - diluted enough to lose their sense of Sindarness?
but I thought they WERE the dominant culture
marriage, a few stop here, a few there etc
I don't remember actually. and as I was reading the Sil again... I sort of loose interest after Thingol is slain :~(
yes - dominant but if they dispersed - I'm thinking that means to all corners of the world
Like leaves to the wind, so is the fate of the Sindar.. :D
indeed. :~)
That is where I was getting "splintered"
and then it becomes lore and tales told to their children's children
By the end of the 3rd age, we have Elrond in Rivendell, and Thranduil in Mirkwood, and Cirdan at the Havens. Lorien is Sindar, with Galadriel and Celeborn as their leaders. Galadriel and Celeborn are foreigners, but the rest of them are Sindar. Possibly other groups, that don't enter the story
I guess i think of “splintered” as still maintaining the tribe and “dispersed” as not
(and, as sindar, they would have dark hair)
Dark hair doesn't look as good on film
Julia Roberts? Oprah?
Tell it to Peter Jackson
yep - i hear you lol

Have we worn out this topic? next week ...?
looks around
I think we could continue this one
oh. hmm.. I'm interested in the langauges. What would Thingol use most: Cirth or Tengwar?
Well, in honesty I can't really say as I doubt I will be here. Will have houseguests by then and may be actually out and about in the real world doing normal stuffs.. hehe
ooohhh - that's right . . they are coming :))
ah, life finally catches up to Belanos and Fox!!!
This topic is fine with me
Well, may we continue with this next week?
But Iwould always like to learn more of the elves
Next week it Dec 16, we still have time for a discussion next week, Were you thinking of anything specific about elves?
Not in particular - Ted expressed interest in which language the Sindar might use.
Are we going to meet the 23rd?
23rd might be pushing it
I found a 39 minute movie called "Hunt for Gollum". I thought that we might have a Tolkien Discussion Movie night?
Oh, yes, I've never actually sat down and seen that!!!
Want to do that next week?
Great idea, Ael
How do homestead sims manage with things like movies? Do you want to have it at Fui on Arador? (full sim)
Ael has a perfect movie room
It's really easy
I think "homestead" only reduces prims, not anything else
{discussion of the technical aspects of setting up the movie player}
How about just doing it in Alqualonde.
With announcements so everyone knows we are on a field trip

Wednesday, December 2, 2009


Tolkien Discussion Group
December 2, 2009
Topic: Merfolk
Fifi Wickentower
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Ossy Portocarrero
BelenosStormchaser Magic

Wow, look at you two
It's mer day lol
I hope merfolk are immune to the cold
We will have to ask a mer about that
Ainu are
You know, I don't have a merman's outfit
Everyone is a mermaid... I'm the mermaid king, why am I in pants?
Why are you in pants?
And you aren't, Ulmo is
There are advantages to being cold-blooded, in this weather

Fifi, did you find any research on mer people?
There was almost nothing
"almost nothing" or exactly nothing?
I found a brief reference to a mermaid island, but no details and not in the regular books
oooh, tell us!
Fifi Wickentower: rummages through notes *:D
Well, a brief reference is enough to prove they do exist in Tolkien's universe!

We could move down to the lake
Come on warm blooded one ^^
Hey, are you two coming over to the water?
They probably fell asleep. We know Fifi is looking for the reference, probably lost in her inventory
Careful on that boat. It's so tempting, because no one ever rides that boat ... although he does have sense enough to sit in the center; t won't tip over immediately ...
heh heh heh I are smrt
Centuries on ships, he does learn something
Referring to Earendel and Idril: There had been a time of loss and wandering and the conchs were calling to Ulmo to return. That is when her found the wreckage and told Earendel that he had been saved to go to Kor. There is something called the Books of Lost Tales and that is were the only reference I could find was listed.

Do mer have their own language? I suppose they must seeing as our spoken word relies on the passage of air through our vocal cords
yes - tala is hello in mermish
Ossy Portocarrero hooks his arm under Aels and pulls him up so he can breathe. Ok dont move ael
heh heh
We lost him

My brother owns that book
It sounds right that there was only one, obscure, reference
but stil, a mention
Well, if it's mentioned, it counts.. :D
So mer do exist in Tolkien
They just don't enter into the stories much
And if he had lived another 50 years lol who knows what else he might have included
Ohhhh, wouldn't we love to know!!!
But are they descended from Ainur?
There is no way to tell from the one mention
yes . . would love to know their history in Tolkien terms
Well, if we don't know, we have to make it up. No one can saw we are wrong!

So how did he die? Old age?
He was fairly old

Do you swim, Bel?
erm... my other dragons swim well.. this one is awfully twitchy.. not easy to settle on the water. Juvenile dragons fly like bats on crack, and swim the same
Its cuz theyre young and have a need for speed
or no control?
likely both
or they are young and ON speed
probably that.. :D
oh, just being young is reason enough
Then no wonder they can't wait to grow up.. hehe.. gain some control over what they do
become sedate and dignified
and boring
:P... more like huge and fearsome so they can terrorise those who laughed at how they flew when they were young
Ossy is old and he is not boring...most of the time
Belenos isn't boring
never borning
true ...
nor is she dignified
yeah I am.. I'm a staid old tart who's stuck in her ways.. nods nods nods..
She pees on me. And eats swans at swan haven
BelenosStormchaser Magic snickers. I don't eat them.. I just.... suck on them a little.... taste them.. :d
call it a health check-- checking for lumps
AelKennyr Rhiano chokes back a sob
Well, you'll be happy to know I'm making new chewtoys... gingerbread men and candy canes.. :D So the swans will have a rest for a while
How socially acceptable!

So where did the mer come from? Are they descendants of Ainu?
Or maybe still ainur? I expect the water ainur would take mer forms
Ainu who got frisky with fish?
or fishy ainur who got frisky with humans
... traditionally... sea cows and seals were mistaken for mermaids.
if I hear ANY complaints from those sea turtles, Ossy ....
There are even folk tales in Ireland about seals who would come on land to mate at periodic intervals
so i've heard
That was before Jenny Craig HAHAHAHA
yes.. dugongs
silkies also.
So... its possible that Sea-maiar would mate with humans, and create... er... half-species?
worked for Melian
although how you could mistake a manatee for a mermaid ...
well its foggy and its far away and you see a fleshy looking tail, and youve been on a boat for months, and youre getting cabin fever
Ossy, have you ever seen a manatee?
and youre tired of harassing the cabin boy for sex. You start making shit up out of desperation
Actually it's interesting that mer, like dragons actually occur across cultures in myths, if I believe correctly?
yes they do :)
LOOK! A FLESHY TAIL!! It must be ATTACHED TO A WOMANS TORSO! (gods I hope its a womans torso.. I havent seen titties in MONTHS) etc etc
after so long at sea even a seacow looks good after a while huh Ossy
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Too much rum ration all round. :D
This reminds me of a song
uh oh
If I hear even a whisper that those manatees weren't consenting .... I'm warning you ....
I THINK, if any of te sailors had ACTUALLY caught one.. and tried to mate with it the legend would have quickly died, UNLESS
the manatee liked it?
they were desperate and unwilling to share the 'ugly truth' behind their ... excursions.
no but maybe.... saying you laid a mermaid and doing the whole "big fish" story that gets wilder every time....
bet manatees think humans are pretty small
its possible to get the whole 'half human' thing.
bad rum helps
manatees don't see vey well
but doesn't tradition have it that they call you down to the depths and you never return?
well, thats because they swim well. And sailors, drunk and stuff, may not..
So who is telling those stories? O.o?
And a manate can bash you with his big ass head, and you wont wake up from that
So tis easy to speculate at a distance but no one whose ever been there can say for sure as they never come back?
ornery sailors
The Siren's Song - -would distract the sailors and they would go off course
But you know what I mean. Manatees can be dangerous. So if you are stupid enough to dive in to chase one, you could easily die if they attack you. Or.. you might die from shame when you see one
They are actually pretty peaceful creatures, vegetarian
They must have a defense mechanism
I don't think manatees do have a defense mechanism Please watch this song about mermaids :) Its funny. They talk at the beginning. You can ignore that I guess xD Start at 1:10 or so. They talk about genitals about female and fish xD The song starts at 1:37 or so. And one of them dances. It's just win win
ty Ossy, for audio/visual presentation lol
One comment to make on that song.. typical male... :D
I would be happy with the cabin boy -- woops...that was in public chat...blushes
... pedophila do you good?
Hey.. fox is only a baby.. so I'm in the same boat Ael
I thought Fox was an ainu
only a young'un
Can ainur be "young-uns?"
((in RL, Fox is 26, Lihan, and I am 49, so one could call me quite the cradle snatcher))
Fifi Wickentower: pokes Belenos "you know, it might be nice to warm up the water for Lihan". Dragon smoke - it's puffing out from you :)

{Lihan crashes and relogs.}

His horn might be a problem
Makes good dental floss Fifi
erm, what are we talking about?
Walter is a unicorn seahorse, or rather a sea unicorn
and I mentioned he looked tasty, as I do
Bel thinks he looks tasty
Bel thinks most things look tasty
You edit, correct? ^^
yes :D
I hope so
and I do remove a lot of the off-topic, mostly, kinda, that is 3/4 of the conversation
Tonight it is
Do our discussions get posted somewhere?

So what do mer folk eat, speaking of things looking tasty.. :D
Don't they eat fish?
Wouldn't that be a bit canabalistic?
What do fish eat?
umm.. plankton
seaweed? I know mine do. They always eat the weed in their tank
oysters - shell fish

shrimp ... I could handle that
Seaweed is good nods
Kelp is really good for you
in miso soup .... yum
Fish also eat fish.It depends on the fish though
But you know, I can just see a mer person eating sushi and going 'alas poor cousin yorik, I knew him well'
Do mer folk think it is weird that land people eat cows?
lol You're just into violence
Well, they aren't the same.. fish and mer both have scales
No, but cows and humans are both mamals, and both give milk.
I love sushi
That idea is not at all bad in my mind, except... no rice
Lihan has a very interesting book on the erm . .Mating habits of Merfolk
Fish are smaller than merfolk, much like some wild cats are smaller than lions, and lions eat them. Aand theyre both cats
So if it's ok for dragons to eat cows then it should be ok for us to eat all mammals?.. :D
mmm delicious sushi
burgers yum
But, are mer folk mammals? Do the females have breasts?
In myths yes
Sailors would like to think so
I thought that was the point of the stories, that and the rest of the girl-parts
I think merfolk are cold and warm blooded
Well, if they were mammals it would ok for them to eat fish.. :D
but I dont think sailors really thought it out that far
Smelly, dirty, HAIRY, sailors-- no right-thinking mermaid would be interested
Don't forget the other H word too.. :D hence why they had breasts, in the sailors imaginations at least
no indeed
but - maybe they ate sailors lol
They did seem more interested in drowning the sailors
BelenosStormchaser Magic whispers, 'so would I'
There aren't 'happily ever afters' usually
Except for the disney story, I believe?
or stories now
Well. Disney can mangle abut any story
oh yes, dear sweet Ariel
Wasn't it based on a Hans Christian Anderson tale though
Yes, which was much bloodier
Yeah, and in that one, she doesn't get the prince
Yes she goes back to the sea.
Oh really? I've not read it actually.. There was an animated version, much much older, where she goes back to the sea
Because in order to become human, she would have had to kill the prince's real love, and she couldn't bring herself to do it
Ohhh.. that was a nasty condition to being human

Should we talk about the 4th age next time?
What about it?
I know little of the time of Men. *plans crash course*
Fifi our researcher! As well as primo shape changer