Tolkien Discussion Group
December 9, 2009
Topic: The Fourth Age
or "What Happens after Lord of the RIngs?"
present:
Kratholis Vanistok
Fifi Wickentower
BelenosStormchaser Magic
Lihan Taifun
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer
AelKennyr Rhiano
wow, so many new people
I'm not in the way of anyone am I?
How nice to have two Ancients with us
You are fine, Kratholis
Although I think you just had Ael land in your stomach, Krath
Save the trouble of eating him?
hehe, would have been the first meal I've had in centuries
I must say you are looking lovely tonight Fifi.. wearing one of my favourite colours
why thank you :)
gold? heheee
not at all.. the purple. Gold is not a colour to dragons.. it's a bedding material.. :)
We were going to discuss the Fourth Age ... what happens after Lord of the Rings. Soooo, did any one look up anything? What did you find?
Everyone leaves teh theatre and goes home.. :D No.. seriously. I have a link from the Encyclopedia of Arda http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/chronicle.html?startyear=1500&startage=2&endyear=4000&endage=3
Apparently there was a short time of peace
You have to get up early to out-research Fifi!
*blushes (really not a know-it-all)
According to a prophecy of Mandos following Melkor's final return and defeat in the Dagor Dagorath (Battle of Battles), the world will be changed and the Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar. Then Fëanor will be released from the Halls of Mandos and give Yavanna the Silmarils and she will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees, the Pelóri Mountains will be flattened and the light of the Two Trees will fill the world in eternal bliss.
oh - and a beautiful safe place to live very useful nod nod
Where is that prophecy recorded?
That's at the end of the fourth age, isn't it?
yes, it is
I've never heard that history ever rolled over to a 5th Age, so it must be
Isn't the 5th age our current time?
unless we are still in the 4th Age
no
We are in the 7th age (or maybe end of 6th)
Well, our role play is set in the beginning of the fourth age
7th age?????
How did we get to 7th age?
According to certain educated speculation ^^
I never though it went that far
The ages continued even tho the prof didn't write it all down
and to answer Lihan, that prophecy was originally recorded at the end of the Silmarillion by Tolkien
not the published version?
I thought it was?
no.. The published version had a different ending
The published Silmarillion ends instead with the recounting of the voyage of Eärendil the Mariner, but this is due to an editorial decision by Christopher Tolkien.
So while Tolkien himself intended the prophecy to be in it, his son edited it out
That happened a lot
Here is something -
Tolkien said that he thought the distance between the end of the Third Age and the 20th century A.D. was about 6000 years, and that in 1958 it should have been around the end of the Fifth Age if the Fourth and Fifth Ages were about the same length as the Second and Third Ages. He said, however, in a letter written in 1958 that he believed the Ages had quickened and that it was about the end of the Sixth Age/beginning of the Seventh.[source?]
oh interesting!
Oh, so you are talking about what age of Tolkien we are in, in Real Life years...not as regards our current role play setting
yes - in response to the earlier comment
My apologies.. I get lost when people jump from speaking in Second Life to Real Life..
Ainur are out of time, so to speak lol
jeese... that would make Kratholis one old dragon...
ancient for sure
So - fourth age . . .how do you see it for rp? the shadow? the new cult of darkness?
Does it create a problem that, 6000 years later and the prophecy of Mandos hasn't happened?
yes
I sort of thought it would be a bit of an gradually more pervasive darkness sort of thing.. the effects of it growing as it gets closer to the last battle
So the theme is always the seed of darkness
May I ask....? What events are recorded as happening during the 4th Age that would pertain to us?
“Us” being whom, Ael?
I don't mean the little things...like who marries whom... Ainur, elves, dragons....
Is there any more recorded of the 4th age, besides that timeline finishing up the lives of the major characters?
I have a timeline for the 4th age - would that be of interest?
That's just it, actually.. and why i suggested the fourth age for our role play. There IS no major recordings of events for anyone but hobbits
It is said that the remaining Noldor all went back to the West, and that the sons of Elrond, and Celborn stayed in Rivendell for some while longer
more freedom?
so the rest of us can pretty much do as our imagination takes us
I thought the Silmarils make another appearance?
no.. only after the Dagor Dagorath
Well that link I posted earlier has the known information in it
It doesn't say anything there about the Silmarils does it? .. *tests out her speed reading*
no....I just wanted to ask about the Silmarils
I did read something about the Silmarils - returned to Yavanna at the end of the age?
because I thought I remembered reading somewhere that they re-emerged and – yes, Fifi beat me to it
Yes.. at the end of the age I believe
or 'at the end of all ages"?
No sense from tolkien that there was such a thing
Well technically from what I've read the Dagor Dagorath IS the end of all ages. As Tolkien's works were conceived as a fictional "forgotten history" of the world, the Dagor Dagorath represents the coming End of the World, and is often referred to as simply "The End".
or a radical change, bigger than the "ages"
good point
course I'm immortal - an age is just another measurement by mortals
We turn a page on our calendars every age?
The dance through each age is basically the same
After the Dagor Dagorath, we get a new calendar entirely
I don't think Tolkien expected it all to be an 'end'.. it's just that a writer has only so much time to write so much of a story in their lifetime
The seeds of destruction grow until the 'end' and then starts a new age/chapter
Ragnarök, in Viking mythology?
I'm not familiar with it
Things get worse and worse until the great war between the gods and the demons, and then, the world starts over again, from the ashes
but all the mortal races get involved
What i notice is there is never more than a token time of peace . . always the 'shadow comes'
We were discussing the dagor dagorath
or, there is nothing to write about in the times of peace
Well yes.. a story must have action.. *chuckles*.. people get bored of reading about how happy and joyous everyone is .. *grins*
yeah
or he never got the chance to go back and write about the 4th Age.
exactly.. he left it open, at a happy stage for now.. but could have extended it further.. but as I said, a writer has limits... it's called time, age and death.. *chuckles*
He hardly had time to finish the first and second ages
absolutely
So the 4th Age begins after the Defeat of Sauron.
and is dominated by humans
and hobbits.. :D
*thunks self on head "forgot" this isn't real
although I guess the Sindar are still in Middle Earth
Perhaps
in Middle Earth but less active in world affairs? what do you thing, Ted? It is hard to imagine the Sindar deciding to leave
Why?
leave and go where? It is the only home they have ever known. Elwe visited the West, once, long ago. No one else has even been there
Who is their king in the 4th Age?
Anyone have their family trees handy?
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline#The_Fourth_Age this?? it's over a 3021 year span
Ok, I have been looking that up Looks like the answer was "Elrond". So, Elrond's two sons stayed in Rivendell for a while into the 4th age, and then sailed. No record of who succeeded them. At least Elrond and his sons are the last surviving descendents of Elwe
This is what I found on the Sindar
In the third age of the Captivity of Melkor (that is, the last age of the Years of the Trees), evil things that had dwelt east of the Blue Mountains began to trouble the Sindar. At this time, they first considered the need for weapons and armour, which they had not needed before. They traded with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, and learned smithcraft from them. Thus armed, they drove the invading wolves and Orcs and other foul things from their land and had peace again, for a time.
So I tend to agree with you, Lihan, that they would probably stay.
Although ... we know that many of the elves from Rivendell DID go west. So, what does that prove Then, the elves of Mirkwood stayed
Given the Sindar nature..would they have abandoned their home?
I agree, it is hard to imagine them leaving
But who would be leading them in the 4th Age?
Maybe they were broken into smaller tribes, like the kingdom of Mirkwood? Obviously Legolas didn't inherit, but he might have had siblings or cousins.
right. Or splintered like the Teleri originally did
Yes, there might be many more small groups
That would explain all the elven clans we have in Arda.
Fifi Wickentower nods
And with the rise of mankind and all these splinter groups, it would explain the half elves
And spent less time with the humans, so perhaps spent more time with the "wild" elves -- the drow, and the others who never went to Aman, and never entered the histories, and faded from human view
Yes, I was wondering how the drow may be explained?
and night elves are different, too?
We know from canon that some elves refused the call to go to Aman, and remained in Middle Earth, and presumably were "uncivilized"
why uncivilized?
What if the drow are elves subverted by Tall, Dark, and Evil?
Well, the totally subverted became orcs, didn't they?
That's what i thought they were
but Orcs, by the 4th age would be their own race.
But quite possibly some never came under the influence of either camp, not Morgoth, and not the Valar either
The drow would be newly "recruited” elves
But never thought about drow and orcs as a progression, if both are subverted elves
I certainly wouldn't say that to the drow! I might consider them more susceptible to evil influence
But Belenos asked a good question.
no no.. I meant orcs In the fourth age..
Are they a race, you mean?
Well, weren't they Sauron's minions? So when the ring was destroyed, did they surrender and become good? Were they imprisoned? What happened to them?
I thought they went to ground.
Got loose, and became petty thugs on their own?
That's a lot of thugs to let run loose
I mean, weren't they in pitched battle at the time the One Ring was destroyed?
Orcs and Trolls fled to the far east, and never really recovered. Either during Eldarion's rule or near the end of Aragorn's, there was some talk of "Orc-cults" although these seem to have been founded and run by humans
Would the armies of the good side have just let them run off?
The armies of the good side were kinda outnumbered. As I remember, they were relieved to see the orcs run off.
Well, I am sure that not every single Orc was at the battle?
Did they just start dying off - any orc babies?BelenosStormchaser Magic: yeah, I don't seem to recall female orcs
We never really heard where they kept the female orcs. Although, could you tell, in a battle?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Without the negative food from Mordor - they would perish
Would they?
We can hope a lot of them ate each other
or would they adapt?
It seems there is a danger that some orcs survived and adapted
It would seem reasonable that enough would survive.
shakes head . . . . Going to ground seems the most likely
Perhaps the Orcs that survive without the food would not as strong?
I think there were a couple people at Bree who Our Heros suspected of being orc/human crosses, which probably isn't biologically likely ...but, who knows for sure
They gained strength from the violence they lived
orc/human crosses??.. ewww.. who would mate with an orc?
yeah, that too
on purpose, anyway
People with poor eyesight?
But haven't you ever met anyone for whom it might explain a few things?
non-consensual?
presumably non-consensual, and Tolkien was too polite to say so
um hm
Think about it... if they fled the battle...they may have needed females to breed with to continue the race, ergo the human/orc crosses
shakes pictures out of head
We don't know all the orc warriors are male, but the point still holds.
Well, I thought I would not go and paint the complete picture.
Even a very few crosses would let the orc-ish strain get into human genetics
Ok.. so there may have been some orcs.. which would help have a little evil in the world
Yes, need some bad guys
Well, the dragons could always get hungry from time to time :D
And likewise, other baddies from Mordor might have survived
and new ones arise
like the drow
Yes, the old evil influence is still at large, even without a body
The dark gods of the drow could be the evil influence in another guise
That sounds exactly like what Morgoth would do, and Sauron
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
and Saruman, if he could get a slice of the pie for himself
I think it's Olwe.. what if Olwe became schizophrenic... good during the day and evil at night.. :D
Hey!
Wait, isn't that Olwe v Elwe?
Dr Jeckle and King Olwe.. :D
Lihan Taifun ducks
Grrrrr
BelenosStormchaser Magic coughs and clears throat.. ok.. I'll behave now
Ted is going to kick himself for sleeping through this discussion
What about the Valar during the 4th Age?
They all went to Phoenix to live on their old age pensions.. :D
hahahahaha
With all that sun?
or was it pun lol
Phoenix?
Isn't that where all the oldies go to live because it's cheap?
A clean double entendre?
Mighty Manwe's retirement home?
Their version of retiring to Florida
and omg, I've only just realied Phoenix = Manwe. I was referring to phoenix AZ
Fifi Wickentower: *smacks Bel
Earth calling Belanos ... You miss your own joke
Hey, it's early morning for me.. only had two coffees so far
Makes it funnier
I thought it was funny enough the thought of Vala playing bingo in Phoenix AZ actually.. :D
shuffleboard
riding little scooters
Don't laugh lol I love Scottsdale
Yeah, that's it.. going on cruises and sipping margharitas
Hanging out by the pool with the mist
Wearing tacky hawaiian shirts
So if the Sindar and Teleri elves are not in the picture during the 4th age, that leaves the Teleri.
BelenosStormchaser Magic grins and focuses again
Where does it leave them?
busy?
hahahah *smacks ael
running cruise ships
ouch!
Sail the Swansea Cruiseline
AelKennyr Rhiano hums the love boat theme
BelenosStormchaser Magic grins. They can be the masseurs and bellhops for the valar
I have pictured it being up to the Teleri to unite the various elven clans
The Teleri are back home in Alqualonde, being very bored?
Yeah, and we all know what happens when elves get bored.. especially with swans around...
Nuuuuuuuuuu That is dragons
Hey we eat them.. didn't say you'd be eating them.. *grins*
Perhaps the Teleri become known for the finest swansdown pillows and duvets
This conversation needs a reset button
reset on
LOL.. well done Fifi.. :d
So, the Teleri are bored
So, Ted, who is leading the Sindar in the 4th Age?
hmmm.. The Sindar dispersed in the second :~(
dispersed...to where?
"dispersed" as in fractured into small tribes?
or absorbed?
yes... haha
absorbed into who?
hmm.. good question.
into whatever culture they dispersed to - diluted enough to lose their sense of Sindarness?
but I thought they WERE the dominant culture
marriage, a few stop here, a few there etc
I don't remember actually. and as I was reading the Sil again... I sort of loose interest after Thingol is slain :~(
yes - dominant but if they dispersed - I'm thinking that means to all corners of the world
Like leaves to the wind, so is the fate of the Sindar.. :D
indeed. :~)
That is where I was getting "splintered"
and then it becomes lore and tales told to their children's children
By the end of the 3rd age, we have Elrond in Rivendell, and Thranduil in Mirkwood, and Cirdan at the Havens. Lorien is Sindar, with Galadriel and Celeborn as their leaders. Galadriel and Celeborn are foreigners, but the rest of them are Sindar. Possibly other groups, that don't enter the story
I guess i think of “splintered” as still maintaining the tribe and “dispersed” as not
(and, as sindar, they would have dark hair)
ahhh
Dark hair doesn't look as good on film
Julia Roberts? Oprah?
Tell it to Peter Jackson
yep - i hear you lol
Have we worn out this topic? next week ...?
looks around
I think we could continue this one
oh. hmm.. I'm interested in the langauges. What would Thingol use most: Cirth or Tengwar?
Well, in honesty I can't really say as I doubt I will be here. Will have houseguests by then and may be actually out and about in the real world doing normal stuffs.. hehe
ooohhh - that's right . . they are coming :))
ah, life finally catches up to Belanos and Fox!!!
This topic is fine with me
Well, may we continue with this next week?
But Iwould always like to learn more of the elves
Next week it Dec 16, we still have time for a discussion next week, Were you thinking of anything specific about elves?
Not in particular - Ted expressed interest in which language the Sindar might use.
Are we going to meet the 23rd?
23rd might be pushing it
I found a 39 minute movie called "Hunt for Gollum". I thought that we might have a Tolkien Discussion Movie night?
yay!!!!
Oh, yes, I've never actually sat down and seen that!!!
Want to do that next week?
Great idea, Ael
How do homestead sims manage with things like movies? Do you want to have it at Fui on Arador? (full sim)
Ael has a perfect movie room
It's really easy
I think "homestead" only reduces prims, not anything else
{discussion of the technical aspects of setting up the movie player}
How about just doing it in Alqualonde.
With announcements so everyone knows we are on a field trip
