This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009


October 21, 2009
Topic: Dwarves
BelenosStormchaser Magic
Lihan Taifun
Fifi Wickentower
AelKennyr Rhiano
Tuatha Shippe
InyaRay Oktomica

mmm... Fein would come but it's too close to the time she must leave for work

If Ossy were here, he could tell us his version of the story of the creation of the dwarves
And I see you are our demo model dwarf tonight lihan.. :D
He has a different version?
Same basic story, just "as told by Ossy", which comes out even earthier than Tolkien's version
BelenosStormchaser Magic snickers.. yes, I can well imagine
I would post it on the website, but by the time it was censored to PG words, there would be nothing left.
[18:01] Ossy Portocarrero: I am going to play the Ainur Maia Osse
[18:01] Ossy Portocarrero: But the Ainur often went in disguise... so this is my "I'm just an elf fisherman" disguise
[18:01] Ossy Portocarrero: ... Ainur is the 'demi-god' or 'angel' race created by Illuvatar
[18:02] Ossy Portocarrero: Valar are the high powered ones, that control large domains of Ea.
[18:02] Ossy Portocarrero: Maiar are their assistants...
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: The trick to tolkien is..
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: Everyone has 1289123971371234 names
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: THATS why it gets confusing, right?
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: So.. Ea is earth.
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: Which seems to be flat.
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: Like playing Sim City
[18:04] Ossy Portocarrero: It's just a big block of dirt.
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: ok So, Illuvatar (God) created
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: his first peoples
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: They are the angels, his assistants.
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: He created them from his song.
BelenosStormchaser Magic: lol.. yes.. is rather disjointed when PG..
[18:05] Ossy Portocarrero: They are all in effect small parts of himself.
[18:06] Ossy Portocarrero: each of them drawing from a small aspect of himself.
[18:06] Ossy Portocarrero: Are you at all aware of the Bible's version of Creation?
[18:06] Ossy Portocarrero: You know.. God... let there be light, etc?
shhhhh, he's telling the story
actually the funny part is when he talks about Olwe and Elu
ohhh.. do tell
ok Olwe and Elu according to Ossy
[20:11] Ossy Portocarrero: so... the elves were in Middle Earth
[20:11] Ossy Portocarrero: and the Hunter (Valar) was running around and saw them and persuaded them after much doing, to go to Valimar or whatever it is where the Ainur live
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: and so three of the several kingdoms went
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: Elwe and Olwe for one... and two others
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: And theyre running around and going "oooh" and "Ahhhh" new stuff!
[20:12] Ossy Portocarrero: Loving it!
[20:13] Ossy Portocarrero: but the Teleri see the sea and go HOLY #### THIS IS AWESOME
[20:13] Ossy Portocarrero: and they want to stay there
[20:13] Ossy Portocarrero: So they're on the east plains of the Belenriad or something... yes.. that
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: So... they stay kinda east, for a bit, because they are the most unsure of the groups about going.
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: And they're hanging out, doing their thang...
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: The other two groups make it to the sea
[20:14] Ossy Portocarrero: When this happens... Elwe decides he wants to go back to see the Splendor of Valimar... and to see the other people who were there whom he kisses.
LOL... omg.. it's so like how fox would tell it
[20:15] Ossy Portocarrero: So he strides off into the woods.
[20:15] Ossy Portocarrero: he apparently does this ALL THE TIME
[20:15] Ossy Portocarrero: But..
[20:16] Ossy Portocarrero: The Maia Melian (who is like Vayanna) is All. About. Song. When she's in Lorien singing people literally drop EVERYTHING to go listen to her... gawking with their jaws on the floor.. I mean EVERYONE. Animals, People, Other Ainur! They just RUN over and listen to her singing.
[20:17] Ossy Portocarrero: So.. all the nightingales flap after her when she wanders into the woods
[20:17] Ossy Portocarrero: shes teaching them bird song.. and tra-la-laing.. (A la Disney's Sleeping Beauty)
[20:17] Ossy Portocarrero: right?
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: SO
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: shes walking around, with these birds fluttering around her
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: all of them singing away like it's normal
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: so...
[20:18] Ossy Portocarrero: Elwe hears her singing right?
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: And does the stupid 'gawk' thing and just walks towards the noise... COMPLETELY FORGETTING EVERYTHING ELSE HE HAS EVER THOUGHT ABOUT
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: I mean, his PEOPLE, his LAND, visting the OTHER ELVES... VALIMAR
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: every. ▄######▄. thing.
[20:19] Ossy Portocarrero: When he gets to where she is, singing away.. he can't even TALK to her.
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: He gets totally dumbstruck. He watches her sing for a bit.. and then she notices him
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: their eyes meet
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: Romantic music plays
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: They walk towards each other, hands outstretched. (Slo-mo)
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: They touch... hands clasped together
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: and they just stand, like that... for oh.. years.
hmm.. sounds like elwe had the concentration span of a gnat... :D
not all elves...just my brother >.<
[20:20] Ossy Portocarrero: Trees and plants grow, animals come and go... pee at their feet.. they're like ▄▄▄▄▄ statues.
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: Meanwhile.. EVERYONE freaks out.
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: OMG WHERE IS ELWE, HOLY #### ..> WHAT HAPPENED?1
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: WE CAN'T \GO\ anywhere!! ELWE IS MISSING!
*wonders if it runs in the family* LOL.. this is so funny
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: so they all start looking for him all over... no one can find him
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: NO ONE
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: CAN
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: FIND
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: HIM
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: ###### bastard!
[20:21] Ossy Portocarrero: so...
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: while theyre all in the woods, holding hands
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: the other elves are at the sea
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: And the Hunter calls Ulmo and is all like "Hey yo wazzup mah man... can you like help us get to Valimar, dude?"
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: and the elves are all afraid
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: these elves are afraid ALL THE ###### TIME MAN
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: everything freaks them out, #### YOU MELKOR I HATE YOUR FACE
[20:22] Ossy Portocarrero: So while everyone is looking for Elwe
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: Ulmo uses his horns and sea music
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: and the elves calm down
wimpy elves..
It was Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: then he grabs an island that's just sitting there because of the big battle with melkor
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: and UPROOTS IT
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: and uses it like a Boat (fog horn)
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: he drags it over, everyone climbs on.. and they head off toValimar.
[20:23] Ossy Portocarrero: The Teleri are way the #### over THERE
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: so they don't hear the horns til its too late!
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: and they're all worried about Elwe!
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: Some people are like "#### this noise, we are NOT going anywhere til we find Elwe"
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: they then drop from history... and are called 'The Forgotten"
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: HOW DEPRESSING IS THAT?!
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: ANYWAY we get to them a little later
[20:24] Ossy Portocarrero: SO... You grab the rest of them... and go back to the sea... where the other people used to be...
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: meanwhile, the island that they get transported with just floats around, which is where I spent most of my time
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: BECAUSE YOU SEE
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: Middle earth Shores is MY DOMAIN
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: so that's where I'm stuck
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: I can't 'GO" to #### VALIMAR
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: *coughs*
[20:25] Ossy Portocarrero: So you hang out... in Alqualonde... the city by the sea.. where you moan and cry and whine that they left you behind, wah!
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: And you live there for a while.. doing your shite
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and me and my ball and chain come over
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: Me: Oh Hey guys, It's Me... Osse...
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: ok Tol Elessea
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: thats what its called, shut up and listen
[20:26] Ossy Portocarrero: So you're all living there and I come by with the missus and an upside down pineapple cake
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: and were all like "We're cool guys, welcome to the neighborhood.. would you like to learn some sea songs and sea-stories?"
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: And you guys are all like "Yeah, come on in, wipe your feet, nice to have you"
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: and we are all jolly ###### for ages.
[20:27] Ossy Portocarrero: So... then after a while Ulmo gets off his ass, after you've been calling him to fix the cable for like ever...
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and he's all like "so you want to get to Valimar? Yeah ok.. I can get the ferry" and goes off to get the island
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and I get all peeved cuz you guys are my only friends :(
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and if you go to Valimar I CAN'T SEE YOU
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: so I get into a hissy.. and I'm all like "Dude, Ulmo.. these youngins don't want to GO to valimar.. they'd much rather hang out with me!" but you're already on the island half way there by this point
[20:28] Ossy Portocarrero: so he's all like "Yeah, I knew that.. I just wanted them to admit, it Foo!"
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: so we root the island into place.. and you guys lived on the island.. and the people in valimar were like "Holy ####, are they EVER gonna get here! #### them!"
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: and we all hung out having beach parties at the island for like ever.
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: So... then Melina or whatever and Elwe WAKE UP
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: And he looks like a Maia now..
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: long silver hair, super tall... awesome powers!
[20:29] Ossy Portocarrero: OoOoOoOooo etc
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and they start having #### babies... who are the most beautiful babies in Ea EVER
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: And then the Forgotten ones are all like "oh hey, Elwe, THERE YOU ARE... phew! that took years, GLAD WE FOUND YA BUDDY... wanna be king now?"
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: so.. he's their king.. with Melina and their pretty babies.
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and that's why you're king and he isn't
[20:30] Ossy Portocarrero stops, panting for breath.
apologies for language
good thing Peacekeeper Lihan isn'there
hhh, trust me, it would not have been teh same without the embelishments of Ossy
I was hoping he would tell his vision at his interview with Phoenix
to PHOENIX? might get him banned
now that would have been interesting
he didn't
no sense of adventure

yes please
oops sorry AelKennyr Rhiano slinks down in his chair
not at all Ael.. it was a funny tale and had to be heard
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Can you find the chapter about the dwarves?
There was a chapter?
There IS a chapter in the SIlmarillion, but I meant Ossy's passage about them, which is in the middle of the one Ael started with
I think I was too busy wiping tears of laughter out of my eyes to notice
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: So.. the craftsman Aule is making mountains.. and living underground.. and making gems and gold and trinkets or whatever
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and he's all like "I want to make people too so that the Children have company!"
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and he makes the dwarves...
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: and very much like God told So and So, go sacrifice your kid for me... that kind of thing happens
[18:26] Ossy Portocarrero: WHAT AREY OU DOING says God
[18:27] Ossy Portocarrero: and then the craftsman.. whose name I can't ###### remember goes
[18:27] Ossy Portocarrero: oh... em.. gee.. like I was just doing it to be like you! I wasn't trying to like say I was better than you god! *but not in a valley girl voice, actually sorrowful* and if like.. this is wrong, I'm sorry. Here, you can have them! Or.. better yet.. I WILL KILL THEM WITH THIS HUGE ##### HAMMER *Sob*
[18:28] Ossy Portocarrero: and god says "Can't you see? Theyre just animatons you control with your mind, theyre not alive like MY creations! But you were HUMBLE so.. ok Ill let them live, and let them be self-motivated... but they have to go to sleep until MY creations are born! And they will have a lot of war with my creations because they are superior... SLEEP NOW!"
[18:28] Ossy Portocarrero: so they do. xD
[18:29] Ossy Portocarrero: So.... they sleep.. for like, ever.
[18:29] Ossy Portocarrero: And then that guy talks to the Yavanna, the 'life' creator... and he's all like 'what should I do? should I tell anyone?'
[18:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and she's like "no, but you shoulda told me first, that you were making them! but because you didn't... they're gonna live in caves and not gonna give a #### about MY creations.. and they're gonna kill a lot of trees... MAN that makes me sad!"
[18:30] Ossy Portocarrero: so she goes crying to Manwe who is the ruler of the Ainur because he lives in a tower and can talk to Illuvatar.
[18:30] Ossy Portocarrero: and manwe is all like "don't worry... we have to let the children do what they can with stuff... it will be ok, we made this place for them, you know!"
BelenosStormchaser Magic: omg.. when does he tell these stories? I gots to listen in more!
hahahah We need a tolkien bardic
Sign me up too
Arda should have a theater
Maybe an r-rated theatre if ossy performs there, but yes, a theatre.. :D
triple XXX
But was that the passage, Lihan?
yes, that one. About how the dwarves were created by Aule, not by Eru like the rest of the races
Created, but not given life by him
true; sort of "adopted Children of Eru"
What gets me is, why did he make them so small and nugggety......and.. hairy?
hahahaha . . . . earthy
I think he was going for "tough and strong"
and bounceable?
Aule figured Melkor was going to give them a hard time
Shiny things com from dwarves, Bel ^^
not sure Aule was counting on the dragons, exactly
yes I know... :)
We weren't counting on elves, either :)
Or, well, your ancestors were still working for Melkor at the time
Well I suppose though, if they were going to work in mines etc, it's not exactly the place for tall beings
Hair is an insulater
True.. but it does gather dirt rather well
Not only are dwarves physically strong, they are remarkably strong in spirit
Is that a nice way of saying stubborn?
Sauron was disappointed on how poorly Rings of Power worked on dwarves
Yes I was wondering about that... I watched the three LOTR movies on the weekend.. and wondered what happened to the dwarves with them?
Sauron could nudge the dwarf kings into doing self-destructive things, but he never enslaved them, like he did with the Nazgul."Nudge" as in encouraging them to be more violent, or more greedy, or such
Why do you think that was? Does that mean that a being made by Aule was better than a being made by Eru?
Or that the dwarves don't have the same height of spirit as the elves or humans?
How can one judge this?
Would that be refelected inphysical sature?
I don't think any of the dwarves were ever as "great" as the best of elves or humans
Lihan Taifun: *pokes Fifi*
would have thought that resisting Sauron's influence was actully something that showed them to be strong...Exactly how did they manage to resist him?
I agree; good question
AelKennyr Rhiano puffs out his chest a little
You were puffing out your chest, I thought you were going to speak
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes...I was thinking about the 'great' remark.
Lihan Taifun rolls her eyes
distracted? easily? *nods runs in the family
hehe.. I think you are right there Fifi
Does not...oh, look, pretty stars.
It does seem like dwarves just can't be enslaved
Why can't they?
Come to think of it I've never heard of a dwarf as a slave.. ever
They will fight to the death. Humans frequently won't.
They are so of the earth, it would take a super force to budge them . . . quake or such
What about elves? We make lousy slaves
true. I wonder how Melkor ever enslaved any elves, either. You wouldn't think that would work
Let alone maiar?
Its honor, i think...yes,pride too
yes, I wasn't thinking bad pride.. like vanity.. but good pride.. in who they are
Salt ofthe earth
Dwarves do seem to have a good dose of both the bad and the good pride, which might not be so different.
Maybe it is because dwarves have thick skulls?
BelenosStormchaser Magic stiffles a snicker
Fifi Wickentower: *looks at the esteemed dwarf next to her I mean... they are built sturdier.
So less penetrates their skulls?
Some have been called stubborn
If we are going to make cheap jokes at the expense of dwarves, we might as well invite Peter Jackson, eh?
I really wasn't trying to, Lihan...I meant that they were built solid. Literally, thicker skulls...tougher bodies.
See that's just it.. there are two stereotypes of dwarves I have in my head..... the sort like Peter Jackson portrayed.....
But stubborn is just when you don't do what OTHER ppl want
loyalty to the death..
and another sort.... proud and strong.. stubborn... but loyal..
Dwarves certainly don't seem to care much what other people want
They do if its their ancestors
Also, do they mingle well with other races?
They don't look to others for approval or validation
Perhaps that is their strength... Aule built into them a completeness ... in what they do, where they lives and how they live.. What need to they have for more?
They were created out of the very subsatnce of the world

Hello, Inya
Greetings, my lady
We were just discussing what makes dwarves so resistant to Sauron's power
I mean, when you think of a dwarf, what need to they have to bother themselves with affairs above ground? With what happens with elves, or men?
Their Wills, innate strength, pride, loyalty, stubborness
But didnt' elves or men also have these things? ... especially men ... ?
Dwarves seem more concentrated
I wonder if that is related to Aule making them all by himself, and not consulting the other Ainur? so the dwarves only care about the things Aule cares about?
depending on their 'alignment', stubborn is key of their continuity
Are humans and elves so stubborn?
That is quite possible too..
I wonder what Illuvitar thought of that..
Elves are really INTERESTED in other kinds of creatures ... Elves go around teaching all the other creatures to talk, or trying to teach them
Only because they can't speak other languages
So it's where their focus is, you think?
Which is fine with me...elves can be a bit nosy, too
I think it might be their focus, yes
Good they arent telepathic...for the most part
For the most part? I didn't think they were at all
Well...the ocassional Mage might have this ability
I agree with Tuatha -- a few elven Mages learned it
wow.. this I did not know
That is from Tolkien's notes and letters, not Silmarillion, I think. How else would the Palantir work, though?
ahhh.. and you know, speaking of dwarves, that's something else I've not heard anything of.. dwarf mages.. did they have any?
good question
hmmm, I've never heard of any
but they must, dont you think?
Although, the dwarves would think of it as "technology", wouldn't they?
a teacher of 'sage' proportions
Elves thought of their "magic" as a technology, too
Fox is telling me that dwarves didn't like magic.. they prefered earthier means of dealing with thigns
Maybe it depends on what you consider "magic"?
They could feel the subtle changes in vibration in the earth, normal to them
yes, that is true too
'hands on' ....if you can touch it, smell it, see it, etc... <very Taurian>
like a sailor knows the sea
Dwarves could work mithril, which no one else could. Shat might seem like "magic" to other races.
Whereas the elves considered that their rope, and their cloaks, were just nicely made technology, and not really "magical"
So it's all race perspective
Seems like it
But unknown science does seem magical
this is so :)
Almost like each race were given their own gifts
(SL seems magic to me lol)
Whoever made the palantiri, I'm sure thought of them as "technology" rather than "magic"
Would one say dwarves are earth, ainur air?
determination, positive stubborn, makes great builders
Aule is a ainu, and he is earth
each ainur represents an element
I am a wind. But the race in general?
Dwarves are definitely earth, though
and elves? Some are water - Teleri
aye...and Elves can be earth or water
or fire. Feanor was definitely fire
some are earth
Elves and humans are more balanced than dwarves
One doesn't think of water and dwarves, or air
less bi-polar? I mean..dwarves have more mood swings? than elves and humans?
Dwarves have mood swings?
Than an elf?????
lol.. no.. I think she means more balanced in their element
When you say 'more balanced'...elves and humans are
I don't think she was talking mentally
I meant elves and humans have a bit of all the elements, being designed by Eru
oh i it
Dwarves are very comfortable with earth and fire
They didn't have the 'whole' from inception - only Eru could bestow that
Whereas the dwarves were designed by Aule, so they are more ... onesided
from his element?
So...theyre alittle

You are going to have to excuse me Fair Ladies.. It is late for me and I can no longer hold my eyes open. I regret leaving such an interesting discussion, but I really must log off..
This has been most thought provoking today
I hope if they ever make the movie of The Hobbit, it will show more of the dwarves side of the story. The dwarves really got shortchanged in the Lord of the Rings movies being in an actors studio...deep character analysis
the movies focused so much on battle
just appreciate your knowledge
And the movies were from the human and elvish point of view

Do we have a subject next?
oh, do we? Kath was going to do hobbits sometime, but she wasn't sure when she would be free
That would be fine
But I don't know if that will be next week
After Halloween...she's doing an event for it
Are we meeting next Wed?
Sometime I want to find the link to "Everything Tolkien wrote about sex". A lot there about elves and their attitudes toward marriage
Lihan...that would be so intriguing
So if I can find the link, do you want to do that next week?
Sure to make Ael a little nervous
I've not heard of Ainu having children together
blushes and gushes Ael
I like to make him nervous *looks around, snickering to see if he came back
He's so much fun to tease
Hehe - the worst is - I've picked it up and find 'blushes' to be quite handy at times
Well...I'm game for more,Lihan
You would think Ael would be permenently pink by now
I will try to send out the link in advance so people can read it before the meeting