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Wednesday, February 9, 2011

Groups of Elves of Middle Earth - part 2

Shawn Daysleeper       
Belenos Stormchaser  
Lihan Taifun                 
Florian Longmeadow 
AelKennyr Rhiano       
Kellinar Trevellion      
Squeak Barzane           
Koni Lanzius                

The “Nandor” were the group of Teleri who stopped before crossing the Misty Mountains (which were a lot farther inland in the First Age). Under the leadership of Lenwë, they turned south along the Great River (the Anduin). Later, in the First Age, a group of Nandor led by Denethor came over the Misty Mountains and the Blue Mountains, and lived in Ossiriand/Lindon, where they became known as the Laiquendi (“Green Elves”).

Eventually the Laiquendi merged with the Sindar, and stopped thinking of themselves as “Nandor”. (A similar situation happens today, when immigrants, after a generation or two, think of themselves as “belonging to” their new nationality.) As the Ages went on, there was more and more mixing between the original elvish clans.

Remember that, just because there is little recorded about the Teleri who didn't go to the Undying Lands (except the Sindar), we shouldn't lump them all together.

When did the Nandor stop thinking of themselves as “Teleri”?
Why did groups split off from the Teleri along the route, but not from the Vanyar and Noldor?
How did their cultures develop, after they diverged from the Elves in the main storyline? (These are presumably the ancestors of many of the elvish groups in SL.)
How did their kin in the West regard them?

Belenos Stormchaser:   I'm actually awake at the right time for once, so I thought I'd shock you all and come.. *grins*
Florian Longmeadow:  Hello May i Sit in to listen and learn?
{Arrivals and Greetings}

Lihan Taifun:                  tonight we are continuing discussing the various groups of elves in Middle Earth, and how they are related. I'm not sure where we left off last week. We had the account of the various groups who got left behind by the Teleri
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Zryonotralionxus:          Did we touch on the Nandor?
Lihan Taifun:                  we mentioned that they were one group. did you know any more about them?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        We really did not touch on them much
Lihan Taifun:                  all I really know is that they are a name on the list of groups -- would you call them "clans"?
Zryonotralionxus:          I have not been able to find much on them, also a bit more curious of if this is the group that vanished from written history? Or is that another group out of the Nandor?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        they were the Teleri who would not cross the Misty Moutains. Later, a group of them, led by Denethor went over the Blue Mountains and lived in Ossiriand.
Lihan Taifun:                  the "written history" is mostly the Silmarillion, which deals with a couple fairly limited groups of elves
Zryonotralionxus:          Hmm, what about the group that went south along the river
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Now , when they originally reached the Misty Mountains during the great Journey, and splintered off from Olwe's Teleri, they came to be under the leadership of Lenwe. They were the group that turned south along the Great River.
Zryonotralionxus:          yes
Shawn Daysleeper:        nods
Lihan Taifun:                  that would be the river Sirion?
Shawn Daysleeper:        no, the Anduin
Zryonotralionxus:          Oh, so then the rest continued over the mountains?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        After that we lose mention of them until Denthor crosses the Ered Luin into Ossiriand, to be known as Lindon and they became the Laiquendi at that point, the green elves.
Zryonotralionxus:          Ok, that makes a bit more sense and clears some things up
AelKennyr Rhiano:        It could be that Comet's Sylvan elves are descendants of the Nandor, if you think about it
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, so the Nandor are ancestors of the Laiquendi
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Lihan Taifun:                  yes, her Sylvan elves could be
AelKennyr Rhiano:        The Nandor came to call themselves Danas after their leader Dan (Lenwe in Quenya). Then later they were called the silvan elves. And if you follow their group's sketchy history, the silvans merge, over time, with the middle earth Sindars, so that silvan elves became more sindar than Nandorin and that group, Nandor, died out
Lihan Taifun:                  which gives you groups like the elves of Mirkwood?
Zryonotralionxus:          So then there would not be any surviving from that group?
Lihan Taifun:                  Laiquendi, with a certain amount of Sindar influence?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        that is where my readings have led me. But I am not a Tolkien scholar.
Lihan Taifun:                  or, Zryon, maybe that they don't think of themselves as "nandor" any more
Zryonotralionxus:          hmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:        They also mixed with Avarin Elves and Noldor. So, it could be argued that they lost their identity as a group by the end of the 1st Age.
Squeak Barzane:            One sees in the Nandor, more clearly than elsewhere, intermarriage between elves and humans.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Please, expound upon that, Squeak :))
Lihan Taifun:                  it seems like after the end of the First Age, a lot of the elves who stayed in Middle Earth were losing their old ethnic identities
Lihan Taifun:                  yes, do, Squeak
AelKennyr Rhiano listens eagerly
Squeak Barzane:            There were intermarriages, let me grab a book off my rl shelf, that didn't count in the high elf marriages.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        ok
Zryonotralionxus:          so then perhaps after first age, allot of the nandor lost contact with each other and their identities, such as family lines and such linking them back to the teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods thoughtfully.
Lihan Taifun:                  in the same way that humans nowadays don't always keep in touch with "The Old Country"
AelKennyr Rhiano:        It sure sounds that way
Zryonotralionxus:          reason I am inquisitive of this group is it is the one I thought might work best as my character "claims" to descend from, so it would be one that much record of lineage was lost and be hard to prove
Lihan Taifun:                  and in a couple of generations, they start to think of themselves as "Canadian" or "American" or Australian" or whatever
Belenos Stormchaser:   That's very valid Lihan.. if you look at all my ancestry they all come from britain, but we consider ourselves australian.. mainly because of where we live
Lihan Taifun:                  it looks like something similar was happening to the elves in Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Now that is a brilliant thought, Zyron and it suits your purposes for the rp well :)
Lihan Taifun:                  where they lived now was becoming more important than which clan they decended from, especially as groups of refugees ended up in Lindon, or Doriath, or Rivendell
Zryonotralionxus Resident nods
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Lihan Taifun:                  that would work well for your character, I think
Zryonotralionxus:          Also being he is going to have a slight fear of water or seem to be, since they mingled with the forest elves
Lihan Taifun:                  it is hard to imagine that all elves are natural mariners
AelKennyr Rhiano:        That would be rather unbelievable
Zryonotralionxus:          I believe it mentioned some where that they still had a longing for the sea
Lihan Taifun:                  that who did?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        the Nandor?
Zryonotralionxus:          the teleri that went into the mountains, I believe so, trying to find where I read that!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        oko :) AelKennyr Rhiano hears the sounds of frantic page turning !
Koni Lanzius:                 hehe
Zryonotralionxus:          uhm, PDF file =P
Koni Lanzius:                 :D
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Shhhhh...don't ruin the atmosphere! lol
Zryonotralionxus:          These were the three kindreds of the Eldalië, who passing at length into the uttermost West in the days of the Trees are called the Calaquendi, Elves of the Light. But others of the Eldar there were who set out indeed upon the westward march, but became lost upon the long road, or turned aside, or lingered on the shores of Middle-earth; and these were for the most part of the kindred of the Teleri, as is told hereafter. They dwelt by the sea or wandered in the woods and mountains of the world, yet their hearts were turned towards the West. Those Elves the Calaquendi call the Úmanyar, since they came never to the land of Aman and the Blessed Realm; but the Úmanyar and the Avari alike they call the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the Light that was before the Sun and Moon.
Lihan Taifun:                  I had the impression it was far from obvious that Legolas would develop a longing for the sea?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        As did I.
Zryonotralionxus:          hmm, that looks to be more of a summary
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I think, from our perspective, we have to be careful not to lump all the Teleri who did not go to the Undyling lands into one broadly described group because there is scant information on them.
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, very true. does "their hearts were turned toward the West" mean turned toward the Valar?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        wow...I have actually never stopped to ponder that.

Squeak Barzane:            Please excuse me; i cannot find it. i may be thinking of amroth, a single wedding that was not among the greats. From this i thought of the possibility of others. There is the the rumor that Bilbo's ancestry included 'a fairy family,' but that's hobbit talk.
BelenosStormchaser Magic chuckles.. I'm afraid I cannot contribute much tonight.. mainly listen
AelKennyr Rhiano:        oh, no that is ok )
Florian Longmeadow:  As do I just listen and I learn..
Lihan Taifun:                  at least that one marriage does suggest there might have been more, that we never hear about
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Well, I think we have to consider at what point these splinter groups that emerged in the First Age during the Great Journey stopped thinking of themselves of Teleri and started to have their own clan or group identity.
Lihan Taifun:                  they seemed to think of themselves as different from the Sindar, by the time they met the SIndar
AelKennyr Rhiano:        And why did the other two groups not have splinter groups that stayed behind as they travelled West? Or did they and I missed that.
Lihan Taifun:                  now that is an interesting question
Zryonotralionxus:          Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea, for which nonetheless they ever yearned in their hearts. Only in
Eregion, which Men called Hollin, did Elves of Noldorin race establish a lasting realm beyond the Ered Luin. That was what I was looking for!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Looking at all three groups, I would tend to wonder that the Noldor remained unified, during their Trek.
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, that is interesting, Zryon
Squeak Barzane:            Some of those attempts would have been captured by Morgoth.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes, I would think so :)
Lihan Taifun:                  I would think so, too. the elves of Ossiariand would have been another splinter group from the Teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Zryonotralionxus:          It seems so
Shawn Daysleeper:        there is also the group that refused to travel at all
Lihan Taifun:                  the Avari, yes
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes
Zryonotralionxus:          and would not "establish realms" kind mean that they did not merge but created their own society within?
Lihan Taifun:                  hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano:        you mean the Avari?
Squeak Barzane:            If any survived, they might have been the object of the Blue Wizards?
Lihan Taifun:                  that makes a lot of sense, and why would those groups of elves not have survived?
Zryonotralionxus:          I would think there would be a core group that would have kept together and not mingled
Lihan Taifun:                  although ... east of the Ered Luin was not so far inland, in the Third Age
Squeak Barzane:            Early on had special and early attention of Morgoth, and later of Sauron?
Lihan Taifun:                  I'm sure Sauron caused a lot more trouble than the parts we hear about
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Squeak Barzane:            He fled East, and i doubt he was idle.
Lihan Taifun:                  can't imagine him being idle!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I agree with you.
Lihan Taifun:                  the Ered Luin, in the Second and Third Ages, were on the seacoast, west of the Shire
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. We have so little to go to imagine how these groups of elves develop.
Lihan Taifun:                  the Misty Mountains are so far inland, in the First Age, they don't even show on the maps of Beleriand
Zryonotralionxus:          yes, there is large parts of their history that is not written down. I believe I seen the one map where the misty mountians were not far from Angband
Squeak Barzane:            North end, 'round Gundabad.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I think this topic is almost too big, becuase I have a million questions...
Lihan Taifun:                  what happened to everyone whose story wasn't written down?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        How did they develop differently than their kin in the West? And how did they write down their histories?
Florian Longmeadow:  Ooh... my so many things to think about!!!!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes! Did they hold onto the memory of the Valar and Eru? Did those beings become translated into gods?
Zryonotralionxus:          I do believe opening one door leads to many more in this case lol
AelKennyr Rhiano:        yes, I think so.
Florian Longmeadow:  For sure!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        And how does their Kin in the West perceive them? Do we grow complacent? Condescending? Detached? There is so much to consider.
Lihan Taifun:                  We know of a couple of cases of Eldar leaders taking over the leadership of Laiquendi tribes; did the opposite ever happen? did a Laiquendi leader ever take over a largely Eldar tribe?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        I honestly don't know.
Squeak Barzane:            i can, with major oops, take Amroth off the table. Nimrodel, whom he loved, was am elf.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        oh... :) is ok :))

AelKennyr Rhiano:        Should we pick a topic for next week?
Lihan Taifun:                  but Prince Imrahil was said to have some elvish in his ancestry
AelKennyr Rhiano:        but how? Through what bloodline?
Lihan Taifun:                  I thought that might be the one Squeak was thinking of
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Is it, Squeak?
Squeak Barzane:            There is, somewhere, the idea of nandor marrying humans. The Princes of Dol Amroth were Numenorian, and Elven blood was there.
Squeak Barzane:            This wasn't the reference i was thinking of, and i'm inclined to shut up for a whiule on that topic.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        Oooh...perhaps we could pursue that for next week's discussion, the mingling of the children of Illuvatar?
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, there is a thought!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        :)
Zryonotralionxus:          yay for mingling!
AelKennyr Rhiano:        What do you all think?
Koni Lanzius:                 hehe sure
Squeak Barzane:            Topic might be too broad.
AelKennyr Rhiano:        it kinda fits the Valentine's holiday theme? How should we narrow it down?
Koni Lanzius:                 ~**smiles**~
Zryonotralionxus:          this is true
Squeak Barzane:            At the waist?
AelKennyr Rhiano:        hahahah
Lihan Taifun:                  there are the four well-known human-elf pairings
AelKennyr Rhiano:        We could start there?
Lihan Taifun:                  and then the question of whether those where the only ones
Zryonotralionxus:          I would think there where many others, especially with the nandor
AelKennyr Rhiano:        nod nod nod
Squeak Barzane:            And the near miss. Turin was pursued by an elf-maid and turned her down.
Lihan Taifun:                  oh, I didn't remember that!
Squeak Barzane:            Children of Hurin, page something.
Lihan Taifun:                  so, do we want to discuss these next week?
Zryonotralionxus:          Kind of like in modern times, you have groups that stick together in another society, yet many of those in the group also mingle in that society as well
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Koni Lanzius:                 ~**smiles**~
Zryonotralionxus:          I have not gotten to reading that book, Children of Hurin, yet
Squeak Barzane:            For later, what do we know of my favorites, the Khazad? (Yes, i shaved before coming over.)
AelKennyr Rhiano:        hahah. how about the parings we know about?
Lihan Taifun:                  ok, we can put them on the list for a future week
AelKennyr Rhiano:        woohoo
Squeak Barzane:            We can follow the pairings we know about with the pairings we know nothing about. Fair and balanced, that's my motto!