Cinnamon Raymaker
Shawn Daysleeper
Fifi Wickentower
Harumi Oanomochi
Kellinar Trevellion
Koni Lanzius
Josh Ethaniel
Lihan Taifun
LiberatarianBear
Fi Piaggio
AelKennyr Rhiano
Summary:
We find it very strange that, at the beginning of the War, the Teleri are still so bitter about the Kinslaying they can only be talked into transporting the army, but not participating. At the end of the War, they forgive the returning Noldor, and allow them to settle (apparently among the Teleri) at Tol Eressëa. With no explanation given for the change in attitude.
The War of Wrath happened in year 583 First Age. That makes the First Age much shorter than the Second or Third.
The Silmarils resemble the Grail: something to be sought after, but not kept. Were the Silmarils themselves cursed? They brought about the death of many elves. Or was it only the effects of the Noldor curse?
The Silmarillion does not give a lot of the details we would like to see about the War of Wrath. Who armed and trained the Vanyar? What were the motivations of the Vanyar, and the Teleri? Did King Ingwë go to war? Why did none of the elves of Middle Earth participate? How did the battle end up damaging the shape of the continent so severely?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . This is really a great place to have this
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it is
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . oh yes :) good idea
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I was just saying this library doesn't get enough use
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Nice and cozy and a library! No, it doesn't
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so where were we on the War of Wrath last time?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . we could place a book on the table that people could touch and get information about the Tolkien Discussion Group and even our blog url, if you want.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . wow nice idea
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . What's the topic tonight?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the War of Wrath, a good Vanyar topic, in fact
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . yes
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . interesting ^^
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so, the War, the one event where the Vanyar are mentioned. We were wondering last time what preperation the Vanyar had for going to war
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . nods, and in a not too defined role. In the former versions, Tolkien seemed to had another ideas
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . ah, I hadn't looked up any other versions. Can you enlighten us?
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . I read long ago. I think the armi was not being commanded by a vanyar but by a noldor. I can check it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Wow, really?
Cinnamon Raymaker: . the people of Ingwe marched with those of the Noldor who had never departed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . That I remember
Cinnamon Raymaker: . the leader was Finarfin
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . no mention of whether Inwge went along?
Cinnamon Raymaker shakes head. The Teleri sent ships and mariners to carry them, and thats really all i gleaned
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the Teleri ferried the army over, but didn't fight themselves
Cinnamon Raymaker nods. They did not set foot on shore
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I wonder why.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . maybe to avoid potential conflict with the noldor
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . they did not want to be involved in saving to who killed their relatives
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and yet not very long afterwards, the Noldor returning the Blessed Lands were allowed to settle in Tol Eressea, and Olwe is said to have forgiven them all. It doesn't add up
Cinnamon Raymaker: . Finarfin was among the wiser ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . And Olwe never gave up kingship of Tol Eressea, did he?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . wiser in that he stayed in Tiron?
Cinnamon Raymaker nods - i guess
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . "When they came into the West the Elves of Beleriand dwelt upon Tol Eressea ... whence they might come even to Valinor. They were admitted again to the love of Manwe and the pardon of the Valar and the Teleri forgave their ancient grief, and the curse was laid to rest." No mention of Olwe giving up his claim to Tol Eressea
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . so that does indication some forgive and forget.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it does, but only a few weeks or months before, the Teleri were so bitter they wouldn't join in the war
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . That is what is problematic for me. What happened? If that just a writer's carelessness?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . or Christopher patching together parts of different drafts
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I would think the Teleri would have joined because of their respect for the Valar and their respect for the Vanyar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . whereas it says the Teleri only joined because Elwing, who was a descendant of Elwe, asked them to
Cinnamon Raymaker: . the Teleri remembered the slaying at the Swanhaven and the rape of their ships - but they hearkened to Elwing and sent mariners
Harumi Oanomochi: . . question: how long before the War of Wrath was the Kinslaying?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the Kinslaying was at the very beginning of the First Age, and the War of Wrath at the very end. I don't think there is a count of how many years that was
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . We are talking first Age for the Kinslaying. You get the impression that some amount of time has passed...let me try to find a time line
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I found a timeline of the 1st age
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the other Ages were a couple thousand years each
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . looks like the battle was year 583 of the 1st age. So the first age was only 583 years i believe
Harumi Oanomochi: . . nods...but to elves...some of them, like Olwe, it was still in their memories. For elves, so long-lived, this timespan through the First Age, was not at all as we mortals in RL think of events
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . maybe like decades are to us
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . http://www.timelineuniverse.net/MiddleEarth/MiddleEarthChronology.htm Maybe that will help?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . yes, Fifi, very like
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .nice!!! thankies ael
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya nice Ael :) This says the first age was 601 years
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . wow, that seems really short!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .even so . .not thousands
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya 2nd age was 3441 years
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .we tend to count in millenia 1k at a time
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . which is like 1 chapter int he silmarillion
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .nod
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Wow, Talk about inconsistency
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . it seems like ages are defined by events that close them rather than some logical consistent reason
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so the Noldor were only banished for 600 years ... that seems like a lot of fuss for a short time
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Yes, it does
Harumi Oanomochi: . . well,, it most likely took 3.5 millennia for the many events triggered in the First Age to come to pass.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I sort of imagined hundreds of years between the big battles
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .our world wars are close together, usually one a generation . .30 years or so with overlaps
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . yes, they are. And If we were to date our "ages" according to events, it would look very lopsided as well.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . about every thirty years somewhere on Earth is a major conflict. le sigh
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .my illusion was that there was a longer peace between ages
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . each age starts relatively peaceful, but then builds up to a climax that ends the age
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and the Humans didn't show up until halfway through that, according to the timeline
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Which makes sense, since we are looking at a body of literature.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I have a timeline that says the three tribes of men appear at about 300 years of the 1st age, ya
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, so Humans were really new on the scene during all these events
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . nods
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . Sorry, I was checking where was that I mentioned. I find partially a very old version of the war of wrath... I copy here
347 [547]. Here the host of Fionwe was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglorest, where Ingwiel son of Ingwe, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. Great war came now into Beleriand, and Fionwe drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his
tents were as snow upon the field. He summoned now all Elves, Men, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.
Fionwe is Finarfin, and Ingwiel is Ingwion
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . what else did we find that is interesting or controversial? :)
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . this is Eonwe's big scene, too, leading the Ainur forces
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . yes, it is
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . right
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I've always liked Eonwe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and then poor Maedhros and Maglor ... trying to steal back the two Silmarils that were taken from Morgoth
Harumi Oanomochi: . . The greatest of arms in Arda he was called.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, and that must be saying something, several of the Ainur were fighters
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . such as Tulkas
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Tulkas, yes, I bet he came along with the army
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Did we ever satisfy ourselves about the true value of the silmarils, in and of themselves?
Cinnamon Raymaker: . the silmarils - more i found about the legend
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . oooh, what?
Cinnamon Raymaker: . kind of like the grail -- something to grasp, but never to be held, elusive and enigmatic, one pure enough to touch the grail ascends to heaven
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . maybe, never to be held by any of the noldor that took the oath
Cinnamon Raymaker: . but it also leads men to the opposite
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . such as Maglor and Maedhros
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . for the Noldor, just the search for the SIlmarils brought disaster
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . right, but it did not affect Earendil
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . or Elwing
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . cause he did not take the oath, so, maybe silmarls are only cursed for the noldor
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . was it the silmaril, or the oath itself.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . good question
Harumi Oanomochi: . . Eonwe was chosen to lead the armies of the Valar, presumably because of his prowess. And Manwe knew that he was the first to greet Earendil at Aman.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Luthien and Thingol and Dior held the Silmaril, didn't they?
Cinnamon Raymaker: . ***Yes***
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya but dior died because of it, and Elu
Cinnamon Raymaker: . why though?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . but it burned Beren
Cinnamon Raymaker: . wasn't dior slain?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya, because of greed
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . As Thingol was too?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Feanor's sons slayed Dior, Dior was running around wearing the silmarl, so maybe he was cursed wearing it
Cinnamon Raymaker: . hmmm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . would that be a curse on Dior? or just part of the Noldor curse?
Cinnamon Raymaker: . sounds like a girl thing to me
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Dior was called the Beautiful. He wore the silmarl, and Feanor's sons came to get it because no one was to have the silmarl except one of the noldor. Dior killed three of Feanor's sons, but was killed in the process
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . so, the sons were cursed cause the silmarl was in the hands of another, and dior was killed cause he had it
{LiberatarianBear arrives. Greetings}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . we were discussing the Silmarils
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So, I am thinking the Noldor were cursed because they took that awful oath, and anyone that had the silmarls were potential threats to the noldor, and were killed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . so then the power was in the oath and not in the silmarils.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yaa, because others could handle them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it seems like the curse was in the oath
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Earendil and Elwing for example, and Eonwe took them from the Crown
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . right
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and part of the working of the curse was that it caused the Noldor to go around killing people who should have been their friends and allies
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . the thing about no one else touching them...
{Fi Piaggio arrives. Greetings}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . wow, what an incredible start for the new year!
Fi Piaggio: sorry to interrupt ...just saw you all and had to come :-)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I think we were just agreeing that the curse was in the Noldor oath, rather than in the Silmarils themselves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . nod nod nod
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . And there was some details left out of the War of Wrath.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I have come to realise that hehe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . details?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . yes
LiberatarianBear Resident: how so
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . like how the Vanyar got weapons?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Exactly WHO joined the battle? Who stayed out? Exactly how did they arm themselves and how did they come across the knowledge and skilll? Why did some stay out..we get a blanket explanation about Melkor, but that is rather flimsy.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . The Teleri's motivations aren't well explained. There has to be more going on with the Teleri than we are told
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . yes, and with the Vanyar too
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . the best is reading the lost tales and the former Tolkien work. There is the way it evolved. See this paragraph:
(*In the final version of this passage my father noticed the (apparent) error,
and changed Ingwiel son of Ingwe to Finarfin son of Finwe (hence the read-
ing in The Silmarillion). The result is that whereas in Q II only the leader of
!he First Kindred is named, Ingwiel, in the final version only the leader of the
Noldor of Valinor is named, Finarfin; but the one should not, I think, have re-
placed the other - rather both should have been named.
+ Cf. the letter of 1967 cited in II. 265: 'Earendil, being in part descended
from Men, was not allowed to set foot on Earth again.')
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . But then you have the mingling of early works and later works...and this may not be what Tolkien intended in his mind. And mingling could possibly muddied the waters.
LiberatarianBear Resident: hmmmmm
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . he change the thought many times
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Tolkien changed his mind a lot, in some passages
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . you know the first name of the Vanyar in the books? how were they called I mean
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Which writers do over the course of a series of books...heck rpers do over the course of a rp series, too
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . although that passage Josh just quoted -- that probably leaders of both groups were present -- that makes a lot of sense. Christopher has his work cut out for him, trying to get the stories into any kind of presentable sense
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I have Karen Fonstad's atlas of middle earth, she said that none of the elves that were already in middle earth joined the fight, just the eagles and men. so most of the host came from Valinor
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . that's a lot osf ships
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . some parts were just sketched, too barely. Surely thinking in a more eventual version. Other ideas abandoned. Some Valar abandoned too
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . true. I just looked it up, and it is true there is no mention of Elves from Middle Earth in that battle, which is odd
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya it's like the Noldor gave up, or were ashamed they could not finish the job
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . very odd...why would they stay out of the battle.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . arrogance maybe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . or didn't want to face the Valar?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . could be
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Shame perhaps
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . So....to help those who rp in the 4th AGe...what can they take away from this that would be useful?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I have learned Vanyar can be motivated to fight,not sure where they got the skill and weapons though
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . maybe the Noldor?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . oh, that I have had no doubt...but yes, I agree with Shawn. Would it be more like that a Valar instructed them?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . maybe Tulkas did, just speculating
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Someone once told me the Vanyars were makers of the finest spears or lances.
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . that parts has few sense. The army land in the south, crosses the whole Beleriand to reach Angband, and nobody sees them. And the battle sinks a continent ;-))) Surely at that time most Noldor except the sons of Feanor were very regretted and defeated, and would join to the fight
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . could have been a Vala, too
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I am not sure if I would believe the Noldor would teach them or that they would even wish to learn fromt he Noldor.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Finarfin was respected
Harumi Oanomochi: . . granted that it's a passage from Wikipedia, so the author is not known, but this passage leads me to believe that some of the Noldor were in the great host: "The Valar are moved by Eärendil's plea and prepare a great armament. The armies of the Vanyar and the remaining Noldor are sent from Aman to Middle-earth in a mighty host."
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Finarfin was wise.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, the Vanyar probably felt a lot differently toward Finarfin than toward Feanor
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . right, and maybe he taught the Vanyar, and parhaps Tulkas and Orome
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . And I have to admit I was thinking more of the Noldor who followed Feanor
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . Finarfin had their blood I think
Fi Piaggio: feanor was the only full blood noldor of the siblings, finarfin and findis were half vanyar, and fingolfin
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . that's it
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Feanor's mother was Idris I believe, she was noldor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . "The host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners marched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwe, and those also of the Noldor who never departed from Vaslinor, whose leader was Finarfin."
Fi Piaggio: Indis was not feanors mother....she was the mother of the other children. Iforget the first wife's name
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ok
Fi Piaggio: feanors mother died
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Miriel
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Miriel was his mother's name
Fi Piaggio: there ya go! :-)
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . Finarfin The third son of Finwë, the younger of Fëanor's half-brothers; remained in Aman after the Exile of the Noldor and ruled the remnant of his people in Tirion. Alone among the Noldorin princes he and his descendants had golden hair, derived from his mother Indis, who was a Vanyarin Elf
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . sorry, had them backwards, hehe
Fi Piaggio: :-)
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . :))
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . :)
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Golden haired Noldor
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . and a few that reached Beleriand, Galadriel in latter term
Cinnamon Raymaker: . :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . did we run out of things to say?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . That and tired....lol
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . hehehe, we can enter in an endless list of contradictions in the books
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . shhhh Josh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . easily!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .and some things just won't be known for sure
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Does anyone have an idea for next week?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . did anyone read the notes I found from Parma Eldalambion?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .um
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . yes :)
Harumi Oanomochi: . . Yes...very interesting
Fi Piaggio: ooh i didnt get those
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Want to discuss it next week :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I think there are topics there for more than one week
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Any mention about the Drow or that outside of LoTR?
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . is there any mention to real drows in the silmarillion? I only think in Eol
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . there is mention of Dark Elves I believe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . there is mention of "elves who didn't go to Aman", but doesn't really say what happened to them
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . dark elves yes, but not as we think in drows I think
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . but I think that refers to the ones that refused to journey
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . ah
Cinnamon Raymaker: . I am having trouble trying to link those ideas myself
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it makes sense to think they developed their own societies, quite distinct from the other elves
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .the only way i can is to think of shelob
Cinnamon Raymaker nods
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . and Ungoliant
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .XD !LOL! ‚òÖ which i prefer not to
Cinnamon Raymaker: . hehehe
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . whom apparently survived the attack of Melkor's balrogs, not sure what happened after that
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .but the dark elves i never had a sense of any thing actually dark . . more that they didn't witness
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . maybe elves worshipped her, and became dark or something
Cinnamon Raymaker: . hmm thats an interesting one to look into
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Yes, I agree Fifi
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .it would have to be as a result of morgoth
Cinnamon Raymaker: . an entity of the outer darkness
Josh Ethaniel: . . . . . . . In the trees they are not represented as a race though
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . we discussed drow in June & July, but that was a long time ago. We could do drow again
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .sighs :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Remember a race can devolve as easily as they evolve.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Fifi is tired of drow?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .hahahah
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . we could start on Parmalambion, and consider drow after people have read the old discussions?
LiberatarianBear Resident: yes, ty lihan
Cinnamon Raymaker smiles
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . .sounds good
