Tolkien Discussion Group
June 30, 2010
Topic: Drow
Present:
Shawn Daysleeper
Dominique Darkwatch
Lihan Taifun
Fifi Wickentower
InyaRay Oktomica
AelKennyr Rhiano
Puma Kawanishi
Summary:
"Drow" as a role-play race were popularized by Dungeons & Dragons, and then spread to other rp systems. They are based on mischievous creatures, called "trow" or "drow", from Norse and Scottish mythology.
Drow are a sub-race of Elves. In the original stories, drow were shorter than humans, unlike Tolkien's elves. In Second Life, drow tend to be tall.
Drow have obsidian-black skin, long pale hair, and red eyes.
They live underground, in matriarchal clans.
"In fantasy rp...Drow are, on the whole, sadistic, arrogant, cruel, destructive, hedonistic, and treacherous. Their eternal game of advancement at the expense of others, which is encouraged by the spider goddess herself, has transformed the dark elves into a race of scheming backstabbers eager to increase their own stations by pulling down those ahead of them and crushing their inferiors underfoot. Drow trust no one and nothing, and most are incapable of compassion, kindness, or love (or at the very least, because of the aforementioned rampant distrust, incapable of bringing themselves to express such emotions). In a drow’s mindset, there is little room for friendship, for while they may secretly value other family members or acquaintances, their overly suspicious (paranoid, by some standards) natures taint any strong relations they may otherwise form. Many dark elves go so far as to be actively murderous and delight in the giving of pain."
"While most dark elves neither honor their promises nor maintain personal loyalties once it becomes inconvenient to do so, their pride lends them a certain sense of style and an appreciation of subtlety. Drow can be courteous and urbane, even to deadly rivals. They enjoy surrounding themselves with things of beauty, giving hardly a thought to the cost. This fascination with beauty extends to the physical body as well, with drow of both sexes often displaying their physiques to degrees that other societies may find vulgar."
Although Tolkien described Eol as a "dark" elf, he wasn't thinking in terms of a drow-like race. Not that Eol didn't have some characteristics in common with drow.
Tolkien makes no mention of any drow-like race, but drow seem to be compatible with his universe. (Possibly since the creators of D&D were strongly influenced by Tolkien.) We know that not all elves even started on the journey to the Blessed Lands. We know that the inhabitable world is much larger than what is shown on the maps of "Middle Earth". There was plenty of time and space for various elven cultures to develop, completely unknown to the Eldar.
The drow's "dark gods" sound suspiciously like "fallen Ainur", and the spider goddess resembles Ungoliant. We know nothing about what happens to Ungoliant after she parts ways with Melkor. Or Melkor could be using the "dark gods" as fronts for himself.
It is no surprise that the drow tell the story of their origin, and of the gods, differently than the Eldar do. Each side naturally assumes the other is misinformed, or deluded.
The drow culture of self-interest and betrayal leads to constant feelings of anger, insecurity, and fear within each drow. Revenge is a major part of drow life. Many drow enjoy causing fear and pain to others.
Drow are generally highly sexual, without either the tenderness or the monogamy that other races might attach to sexual activity.
How much is a clan of drow like a hive of ants or bees? Both are controled by a female leader. But drow are much more independent-minded.
We attempted to envision drow children.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Let's see --- last Monday we learned why drow are like moose.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . hahahaah Sounds like a joke actually'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . :) I'm sure it will get better the more I tell it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . we can all embellish it.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . (to Dominique) Have you met many drow? You might be our local expert. Can you give us a quick summary about drow?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Are they sad ?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, the drow in Sylvhara seem to follow a D&D type of RP
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . meaning?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . RP Drow seemed to have originated from Dungeons and Dragons
Dominique Darkwatch: . They are generally matriarchal in their society, with a house or clan being led by a matron
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do people still play that?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I think so. Not that they invite me
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I think many have a history of it,: at least
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, I'm not as familiar with it, but they like to draw from it somehow...and some other books I'm not as familiar with
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But the word came from the Norse. The word "trow"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I didn't know that
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . there were Norse evil sprites. AelKennyr Rhiano did some research since Monday night. AelKennyr Rhiano blushes.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . You are beating out Fifi at research!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . uh-oh. sorry
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . It just means Fifi has to work harder now, to keep up her reputation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Even though they first gain renown through D&D, they are also in other game systems
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I must rest remain silnt tody . . chat lg
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . uh oh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . oh, Fifi, I'm sorry :(
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . lots of info ad no wy to share
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Put it in a notecard and pass the infothat way?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I talk too much anyway
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . never!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . always
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . but we need you!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . YES!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . me listen for a change
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Do we know a drow ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Yes, Gwindolyn
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . ah
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and I am sure, others
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Is she a typical drow?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Pretty much
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . They are a sub-race of Elves who consider themselves superior.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . you could say that of the Noldor, too ( I can snark OOC )
Dominique Darkwatch: . The drow we have typically enjoy inflicting pain on others
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . I've seen drow portrayed in internet games
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . They dwell undergrown in what they call "underdark"
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I do not see why dwelling in the dark would make them superior
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I think that is two separate facts - dwelling inthe dark, and thinking themselves superior
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, sorry. Drow have a resistence to magic, and a higher birthrate than elves. However they also have a lot of internal war and bickering.
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, a matron has to fear from her own daighters in addition to other females seeking power
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Perhaps i would dislike them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . They are easy to dislike
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Drow have obsidian colored skin and pale yellow (or pale golden), silver or white hair, the latter being by far the most common. This hair is carefully groomed and cared for by most drow and worn long.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . If they live underground why do we meet them?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Because they do not stay underground.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . so they surface to create mayhem?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Like all elves, drow are incapable of growing beards, though many males are fond of long sideburns.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . quite taken with the Dark Powers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . They revell in blood and conquest.
Drow eyes are usually bright red.
InyaRay Oktomica considers this creepy
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Like all elves, all drow are handsome and beautiful.
Drow have lifespans far beyond that of humans and comparable with the rest of the elves, although usually somewhat longer. This is, of course, presuming the drow doesn't meet a premature and violent end, as many often do
And in a lot of game systems can live as long as 600 years. They are not as long lived as the Eldar Elves.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . short, by Tolkien standards
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Do they wish to return to the surface ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I don't thinks so.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . They are more agile then other races...except elves.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . One thing bout drow: they are based on the non-Tolkien type of elf -- the shorter elf - - no taller than 5 ft
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes. So actually Tolkien elves are much tougher
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . sorry I'm not too familiar with drow, i'm listening
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Tolkien elves are tall
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . the other fantasy elves,,, do not live as long, are short, have low birth rates.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Traditional mainstream elves are short
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . oh, so drow as as butterlies in size ?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes - - what ael said :)
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Those I have seen have been large
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Not that small, Inya. Nno taller than 5 feet
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . The size of dwarves ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . In D&D there is a game series called Forgotten Realms...they are a wee taller
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Our elves are very tall and elegant
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes very lovely
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . in SL, they seem to be tall and elegant
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . if one thinks of the term "elfin", one thinks of small, slightly built, quick moving
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . There are tons of elven avs in sl who are short...yes, Fifi
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and not as 'human' as our Eldar --: long fingers, close to the elements
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I have seen elves the size of butterflies in SL, but perhaps just.. sculptures
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes, all sorts in sl but not Tolkien type
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . In the D&D forgotten Realm series....the elves have a creator similar to Illuvatar. There are many Tolkien like elements in D&D...
Corellon, or more fully Corellon Larethian, whose titles include The Creator of the Elves and The Protector, is the patron god of all fey. He is the creator and preserver of the Tel'Quessir, governing those things held in the highest esteem among eladrin and elves, such as magic, music, arts, crafts, poetry, and warfare. Corellon lives in the realm of Arvandor. He approves of those who kill orcs and followers of Lolth, blesses those who aid others and becomes angered at those who defile the dead, or flee from their foes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . so there are orcs in D & D?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, and goblins
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . not at all familiar with D&D. Goblins are all over in history
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Clearly the creators read Tolkien, although they avoid outright copyright infringement
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Most fantasy rp games do draw alot of D&D
Dominique Darkwatch: . D&D has a vast universe of creatures
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Yes. The creator did exactly that, Lihan
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I know they had dice.. and creatures... Did they truly invent drow ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . no. That is a misconception. D&D made people aware of drow, and made them more evil that they were in Norse literature
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Gwendolin should come and tell of Drow
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I looked to see if she was online
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Drow, or trow, are mythical creatures from Scottish folklore
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . the little people ? or such ?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . In the folkloric traditions of the Orkney and Shetland islands, a trow (alternatively trowe or drow) is a small, troll-like fairy creature.[1] Trows, in general, are inclined to be short of stature, ugly and both shy and mischievous in nature. Like the troll of Scandinavian legend, with which the trow shares many similarities, trows are nocturnal creatures; venturing out of their ‘trowie knowes’ (earthen mound dwellings) solely in the evening, often proceeding to enter households as the inhabitants slept. Trows traditionally have a fondness for music, and folktales tell of their habit of kidnapping musicians or luring them to their dens.
According to Sir Walter Scott: 'Possession of supernatural wisdom is still imputed by the natives of Orkney and Zetland Islands, to the people called Drows, who may, in most other respects, be identified with the Caledonian fairies.'[2]
Dey (1991) speculates that the tradition, and perhaps that of the selkie may be based in part on the Norse invasions of the North
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, in a way -- what Fifi said. heh heh Yay, Fifi!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . oh , you know me . . can't just listen LOL
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I appreciate the Sir Walter Scott reference. AelKennyr Rhiano gives Fifi an "A"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . In fantasy rp...Drow are, on the whole, sadistic, arrogant, cruel, destructive, hedonistic, and treacherous. Their eternal game of advancement at the expense of others, which is encouraged by the spider goddess herself, has transformed the dark elves into a race of scheming backstabbers eager to increase their own stations by pulling down those ahead of them and crushing their inferiors underfoot. Drow trust no one and nothing, and most are incapable of compassion, kindness, or love (or at the very least, because of the aforementioned rampant distrust, incapable of bringing themselves to express such emotions). In a drow’s mindset, there is little room for friendship, for while they may secretly value other family members or acquaintances, their overly suspicious (paranoid, by some standards) natures taint any strong relations they may otherwise form. Many dark elves go so far as to be actively murderous and delight in the giving of pain.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . so bad
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, ours are more like Ael's defintion
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . We both get 'A' today
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . While most dark elves neither honor their promises nor maintain personal loyalties once it becomes inconvenient to do so, their pride lends them a certain sense of style and an appreciation of subtlety. Drow can be courteous and urbane, even to deadly rivals. They enjoy surrounding themselves with things of beauty, giving hardly a thought to the cost. This fascination with beauty extends to the physical body as well, with drow of both sexes often displaying their physiques to degrees that other societies may find vulgar. Such is the strength of this fascination, that most drow children who exhibit physical deformities or deficiencies are slain.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . So not a true love of beauty
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . no
Most drow tend to lean towards the chaotic end of the lawful-chaotic spectrum. In general, drow believe in doing what they want to do, when they want to do it--so long as they are capable of doing so in present company and conditions.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . They shold be in tournaments set against one another and all would be well
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes!!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . you are right Inya
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . From what I found...All drow believe in their superiority. Especially to elves.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Do they even talk to other races?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . So a weakness is to appeal to their need to compete and win .. and to admire their beauty
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . their downfall and weakness: vanity
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, Inya. I am sure they talk to their victims before torture or sacrifice.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . lets fight beautiful ... :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Drow believe in themselves because faith in others is foreign to them. They have always relied on their own wits and skills to survive, and they must continue to believe that they can, or they'll succumb to the depredations of other drow trying to scramble up the social ladder.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I think a drow might make an interestng friend thought... they seem rather active
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . They are very active, Inya but treacherous.
Treachery and lies are expected in drow society, and a devastating betrayal is admired. Despite their sense of superiority, most drow fear that other creatures will get the better of them somehow, and they are always on their guards.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I dont mind a treacherous friend if they can tell a good story
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But Inya does have a point...Drow are driven.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Don't cre fordraow n geneal basd on wat i'v learnd ... cr-p
InyaRay Oktomica gives Fifi some medicine
Fifi Wickentower snorts
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Every action must have a purpose, and drow take steps toward some end with everything they do. The most driven are usually the most powerful.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . The original question was how drow might fit into a Tolkien universe. Could they fit?
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . ...as allies of the Enemy?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think so...as servants of Melkor
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Were drow evil?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . they have characteristics, he would exploit
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . no drow in tolkie propw
Dominique Darkwatch: . Eol was a drow, was he not?
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . no, Eol was a "dark elf"... which I think was different from a drow
Dominique Darkwatch: . But he acted very surly like a drow
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Not all are evil, Shawn. But as any creature, all are motivated by survival
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I think they would make great opposing teams for elven war games
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Ya it doesn't sound like they are evil, based on what i've learned tonight
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and what is a 'night elf'?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I don't really know much about night elves at all..actually I don't know a thing about them.
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . yes, he did... you are right, Dominique
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Eol was a dark elf...it is not the same thing...Puma is right. Drow as such do no exist in Tolkien literature
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Not as such, but we know not all the elves even started the journey to the Blessed Lands. We know almost nothing about those who remained.
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Puma Kawanishi nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But drow could easily have descended from elves who were subverted by Melkor but who were not tortured or transformed into orcs.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . indeed
Dominique Darkwatch: . Drows HATE orcs
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I find it rather suspicious that they consider their god "leader of the dark gods"
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . everyone hates orcs :(
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . Perhaps their original Spider Goddess was Shelob?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . or Ungoliant
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Perhaps
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . or....oh what's her name. Ungoliant, yes. Thank you
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . or perhaps Melkor speaks to them through their "goddess"
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . We know next to nothing about Ungoliant after her confrontation with Melkor
Dominique Darkwatch: . Tha's kind of what I thought.....Lolth being a descendent of Ungoliant
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . or Ungoliant herself
Puma Kawanishi nods
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Everything has multiple names in Tolkien lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I sese Lloth as a "front" for Melkor or one of the fallen Ainur.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . "Dark gods" sound awfully similar to "fallen Ainur"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But any of these ideas are very likely, once you think abou tit.
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . Well, wasn't Ungoliant of the Ainur?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The history of the Elves in Tolkien's legendarium presents an explanation of the division into light, dark and black elves. By a historical "sundering", they become divided into the Calaquendi or "Elves of Light" who have seen the light of the Two Trees of Valinor and the Avari who refused to go to Valinor. Between the two extremes are the Grey Elves or "Elves of the Twilight". The title "Dark Elf" in Tolkien is given to an individual elf of the Avari, Eöl, who had close associations with the Dwarves.
In the roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons, dark elves (as seen in the module Descent into the Depths of the Earth, for example) have little in common with the dark elves of legend, being rather evil opposites of the elves.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods at Fifi's research knowledge.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . does that hlp?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, thank you, Fifi
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . There is also a lot of geography in middle earth that is not extensively described, drow could fit in somewhere for sure
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . They should be useful, so clever
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . After a few millenia separated from our elves, who knows what they would have evolved into. Or what social structures they would have developed
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The term black or dark elf might rather be suggestive of their place of residence than of their presumed nature, although they are described as greedy and troublesome for humans, in comparison to the prestigious (light) elves. Besides their underground lives, Svartálfar had many of the same traits attributed to them as the dwarves. These include growing from the maggots of Ymir's flesh, turning to stone when exposed to daylight, and being human-like, but ugly and misshapen.
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I believe she was, Puma, but I would defer to Lihan on that question, and Fifi
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Ungoliant? yes, I think I remember she was Ainu
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . All I know of Ungoliant is that she was the great spider who plotted with Melkor.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Ungoliant demanded the Silmarls, but Melkor refused and she ran off somewhere
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and then she and Melkor disagreed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Was it ever spelled out if she was a creature or Ainu?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Not sure she died
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . I would think that Ungoliant would have had to be Ainu.... she was not "made" by Melkor, and she was able to exist in the undying lands
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . true. But was she created by the Song of creation?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I think she was Ainur, because I found it significant that she bred with ordinary spiders, giving us an example of an Ainu-mortal crossbreeding
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . well, yes, that is a good point, Lihan. One of a few...smiles
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . As a Spirit of Evil, she was possibly either a creature from the Void, or a fallen Ainu, created by the discords of Melkor in the Music of the Ainur. Ungoliant may have been one of the Maiar corrupted by Melkor, but in Arda she served only herself. A creature of darkness, Ungoliant assumed a huge spider form and dwelt in a dark ravine in Avathar. She hated light and thus agreed to help Melkor poison the Two Trees. Cloaked in her Unlight, Ungoliant and Melkor came to Ezellohar, where she drained the Trees of their sap, poisoned them, and drank the Wells of Varda dry. The pursuit of Orome and Tulkas was stymied by the Unlight, and Ungoliant and Melkor escaped to Middle-earth.
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . thank you Fifi :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yay Fifi is awesome :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I told you we needed her
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Lihan and Fifi are an awesome research resource.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . So it seems Ungoliant could be Lolth
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It is a possibility, at the very least
Puma Kawanishi nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . It does seem possible
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Or one of her descendants.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Her origins are unclear, as Tolkien's writings don't explicitly reveal her nature, other than that she is from "before the world". She is one of a few instances, along with Tom Bombadil and the Cats of Queen Berúthiel, where Tolkien doesn't provide a clear background for an element of his fiction.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . Maybe the Dand D game designer got that idea from Tolkein's works
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . And the fact that the drow tell their history differently -- well, it isn't suprising that they tell the story differently. Or tell about Lloth differently
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I agree, Lihan
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . The creator of D&D got his ideas for his game from many literary works, including Tolkien, and this is well known.
Dominique Darkwatch: . And the worship of Lolth leading to a matriarchal society
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . it wold be fun to have 'interview' with whatever character
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Oh...something to note: Drow hate all other drow by and large.
This hatred stems in many cases from envy. A drow who sees someone more powerful, more intelligent, or more secure sees an enemy. Each believes that he should be the most important and powerful--in effect, every drow desires godhood. But each fears that others will prove to be better. A drow's level of insecurity is roughly related to his place in society. When a drow's self-hatred and self-doubt outweigh his hatred of others, he fails to take risks and can no longer seize what should be his.
Dominique Darkwatch: . A matron is a lot like a spider as she spins her web of deceptions and has a general disdain for males
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Is there anything drow don't hate?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, themselves lol
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . Tho they live in major cities with many different families and clans. They are social in that way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, but their family dynamics are a lot different that elven
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . They don't like each other
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . So is there a lot of fighting in their cities?
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . sometimes ...Shawn, sometimes clans will vie for the leadership of the city ...for the Mother (whatever she is called) who rules ... Matron ... Matron Mother
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, :)
[Dominique Darkwatch: . They do seem to covet things...or people
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . The communual good works as long as it benefits the individual.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . There is a lot of wrath created in the individual drow in general.
The emotion is considered both normal and inevitable, but a drow's reaction to it falls in one of two camps. Some believe that anger itself is a tool: red-hot rage gives you strength to persevere over your foes. Others believe that anger should be cool and calculating: Hiding it will give you more opportunities to take vengeance. Most drow borrow from both schools of thought as the situation demands, but none would argue about the outcome: revenge.
Revenge is an art form among drow. It comes quickly or takes centuries. It can be long and excruciatingly painful, or painless and deadly swift. All drow appreciate a well-executed vengeance, even when they are the targets. There are as many flavors of revenge as there are drow. Each drow establishes a preferred style at an early age, using this as a kind of signature and warning to others. Some prefer to use the techniques of their enemies in order to place the blame on others, but this in turn becomes their own style, and drow learn to look through such deceits to find the responsible party.
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . You did your research, too, Ael :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . They sound like poster children for Melkor. AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . They would be great lie detectors
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . no kidding
Dominique Darkwatch: . For a long time, we had an excellently played matron with Virgi...she fit all of that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . They sound like better tools than orcs, for Melkor
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . very intelligent
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Maybe orcs were a rough draft, and drow a more refined corruption of elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I believe they are highly disciplined.
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . and posessers of magic
Dominique Darkwatch: . But they would never serve Melkor because they make por slaves and minions
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . oooh...good thought, Sure they would, if they saw a benefit in it. Their whole society is the weaker serving the stronger.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Why do they want social stature if they hate everyone
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . They want power
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Social status means power
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . I would say the stronger 'dominating' the weaker
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nod and you survive better at the top of the food chain
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . You can also survive by being useful to someone powerful
Puma Kawanishi nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . In wolf packs, the weaker wolves survive by showing constant submission. I think the same would exist in Drow society.
Dominique Darkwatch: . But it would be short lived just as Ungoliant's alliance with Malkor was
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, always shifting alliances
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I have little sympathy for them.. but they might be fun in some ways
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . How do you think they might be fun, Inya?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . watching a chosen few, navigate, having one as a friend to tell stories
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . ahh
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . sparring with one
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But they would be sparring to win, always
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Such as this. That is of little concern, if one wishes to spar
Dominique Darkwatch: . The people I know who play drow enjoy playing a very violent, unpredicatable character who inspires fear in others
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . also some people have had questiong about drow sexuality...and ...blushes...lust...
Given their tense and deadly society, it is surprising that lust plays any part in drow's lives, but lust and sex (consensual or not) are huge factors in drow psychology. Sex plays many roles. It is a release of tension, a moment of closeness, and it staves off fear of inevitable death. Despite their long life spans, few drow can expect to die of old age, so procreation is a way to establish a kind of life beyond death. Sex is also one of the rare times when drow can express a minor degree of tenderness for one another. It is not always tender, of course, but it offers pleasure in being weak or strong, and drow involved in consensual sex often reverse their normal roles in society. Slaves can be masters, and masters, slaves. In this physical release, drow come as close to happiness as most of them will ever get. Drow have no real understanding of monogamy or marriage. They have children to further their bloodline and House, and sometimes parents make an effort to protect a child, but both parents will likely have many partners and form no lasting relationship as the child grows to maturity.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . If they frightened me they could not be my friends... oh well
AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement with Inya. It would be hard, Inya
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Sounds like drow don't have "friends"
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I saw them as dark jewels
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Please explain, Inya. That sounds interesting.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . fast and beautiful and dark, shifting, full of plans
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, I routinely get hit on by drows
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . They wouldn't see you as even equal to them
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Inya...that is interesting. They would live, in a way, very "Fully." Because each moment could be their last.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes fun to watch, but not if they are truly bad
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . like animals
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . Are you speaking as Ainu, now, Inya.... "watching from afar, or above'?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . perhaps ..
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Roman society grew to be vain, lustful, greedy and ruthless...were the Romans "animals," Fifi?
Dominique Darkwatch: . They are not all evil...they simply derrive pleasure from hurting others
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . lol . . . hmmm yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . If it is a choice between hurt or be hurt, what do most beings choose?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . perhaps they measure success by successful manipulation points
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . they do...good point, Inya.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . we havethe sae thing going on today in rl :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, we do, Fifi
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . some things never change
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . such empty lives
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Depends. Some ppl enjoy pain or sacrifice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think drow society must be credited for succesfully living in the "now" and still surviving as a society.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . They would choose one way
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . It is amazing that they hold together as a society
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . They see nothing, feel nothing that matters
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Well, but what matters is survival
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . ahhh.... nothing that matters to the world of Light, but that still matters to them ;-)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . It is very much a'group mind' . . .like insects and arachnids
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well..you don't see large drow societies, they are more clan..or house...based
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . a group mind?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . kinda like ants? with a queen? or bees with a queen and drones? Both insects are societal.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes... nods
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Such success that they gain.. lasts only one moment before they need more of it. No real pleasure
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But I think we are measuring an entire society by our value system
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That is not necessarily fair.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Wait, I am totally missing how the drow have a 'group mind"
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . hmmm....I'm not sure the 'hive' metaphor does justice to their intelligence
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . The queen or matron controls the clan. True, Puma. It was a simplication.
Dominique Darkwatch: . No...they are not lke a hive as they are constantly subverting each other
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . At their level would be the pleasure of plotting and planning .. such joy :)
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . But she's more like a tyrant, than a "Queen Bee"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But doesnt't the hive work to sustain her above all else?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I wasn't seeing any cooperation among individual drow
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . ...a tyrant who can be take n down by politics
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . And if another female is born in the hive and allowed to thrive, then the hive is divided.
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . The drow are very 'political'
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Half will leave the hive with the new queen?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . It could be fun to be a drow for a day, and make a plan
Dominique Darkwatch: . They only sustain her as long as they have to...as long as she can engender fear
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, they are very political. yes. AelKennyr Rhiano nods to both
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . Yes, Dominique
InyaRay Oktomica looks for a rival
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . forgive me, it was an oversimplification.
Puma Kawanishi smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . We should also remember that despite all this drow clans are very tightly run and disciplined groups.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . It is hard to imagine such "chaotic" creatures being tightly run
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . There are some, who are good and wise... who have survived in and out of Drow society
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . hehe . . enjoyed the discussion
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . :) ...me too
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . yes this was interesting
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do we want to continue this next week or discuss something else?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Imagine the brattiness of a drow child
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . eeek
Puma Kawanishi: . . . . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano faints. nuuuuuuu
InyaRay Oktomica was a very bratty child
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Adult or child?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Perish the thought
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . So they never consider consequences?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Oh, I bet they did. I bet they learned the consequence of failure.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . or of displeasing someone stronger
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . ahhh sure . . like an abused child learns
Dominique Darkwatch: . Actually a child sufficiently bratty would be killed
InyaRay Oktomica is for this
Dominique Darkwatch: . They would have to learn to be manipulative and cunning
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . or quiet and submissive
Dominique Darkwatch: . Outwit and outsmart their siblings
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . What do they eat?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . So, are we continuing this next week? We don't seem to be done yet
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Sure next week
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . it is at your whim
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Drow, drow again
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Maybe we can get a drow or two here
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . True experts
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . . That would help
Dominique Darkwatch: . Ours were fighting a balrog tonight
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I wonder if there are 'secret drow'
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Thank you, everyone for a great discussion. This was awesome
