Tolkien Discussion Group
June 2, 2010
Topic:Silmarillion Chapter: "The Coming of the Elves and the Chaining of Melkor"
Present:
Shawn Daysleeper
Fifi Wickentower
No transcript was kept of this discussion. :(
Tolkien Discussion Group
June 9, 2010
Topic:Silmarillion Chapter: "The Coming of the Elves and the Chaining of Melkor" - continued
Present:
Carleen Luckstone
Shawn Daysleeper
Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
Feydra Zenoria
InyaRay Oktomica
AelKennyr Rhiano
Summary:
It was the Vala Oromë (or possibly his horse Nahar, depending on who you ask) who first found the newly awakened elves. The young elves were at first frightened of Oromë and his huge horse.
If Oromë had not found the elves when he did, they would have fallen under the influence of Melkor, who already had his spies harrassing the elves.
The Valar waged a major war against Melkor, and captured and locked him up, to keep the elves safe from him. Fearing Middle Earth was still too dangerous for the young elves, the Valar encouraged them to migrate to the Undying Lands.
In retrospect, it might have been better if the Valar had moved back to Middle Earth, to protect the elves.
Tolkien mentions that, over the ages, the race of elves grew weaker, but never lost their original beauty.
Tolkien also mentions, on the same page as the beauty of the elves, that Melkor's corrupting them to orcs was his foulest deed.
Can the elves who were corrupted to orcs be redeemed? Could they ever "go good" again? How do elves feel about knowing that orcs share their origins? That will be next week's topic.
The week after: whether, or how, drow fit into the Tolkien universe.
Shawn Daysleeper: Please meet Carleen, she will be joining us tonight
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . wonderful
Carleen Luckstone: thank you
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we have so many new people today!
Shawn Daysleeper: Lihan this is Feydra, another of my friends
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Tonight we are doing another chapter in the Silmarillion, "The Coming of the Elves and the Chaining of Melkor". I hope someone read it?
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Oh yes, you and Fifi were discussing it last week. What did you decide?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . We left it open . . :)
Shawn Daysleeper: Actually we waited until this week, so it's wide open
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . heh heh, ok
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Inya, this is Oromë's big scene
InyaRay Oktomica: oh wonderful
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Oromë and the newly awakened elves
InyaRay Oktomica: So afraid they were
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, his horse is rather large
InyaRay Oktomica: They say Nahar actually did this discovering
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ((Inya plays Vana, Oromë's wife))
InyaRay Oktomica: but I am quite sure it was my husband, and not his horse. InyaRay Oktomica smiles
Shawn Daysleeper: Nahar heard the singing, coming from the valley
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I imagine *Nahar* says he did the discovering
InyaRay Oktomica: 'of the stars' he said of them ... so lovely. Imagine if had passed by that starlit night, without stopping
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh dear
Shawn Daysleeper nods. Melkor would have found them for sure
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ((With so many new people here, I should ask, does everyone know the story? Are we losing anyone?))
Carleen Luckstone: Shawn has been kind enough to summarize the story a bit
Shawn Daysleeper: Carleen and Feydra has just recently expressed interest in our rp, in the last few days :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . wonderful
Shawn Daysleeper: And am hoping this discussion will help them out learning the origins of the elves
Carleen Luckstone nods
Shawn Daysleeper: kindreds; also Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, this is the chapter for the origins of elves :)
Shawn Daysleeper: yes, good timing :)
Carleen Luckstone smiles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So, we just got to Oromë finding the elves. Or Nahar, depending on who you ask ;)
Shawn Daysleeper: I'm not sure how much Nahar could have done for them by himself
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Scared them even worse?
Shawn Daysleeper: perhaps
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Had the elves ever seen a horse before?
InyaRay Oktomica: Poor beautiful elves.. so frightened
Fifi Wickentower: . . . No, i don't think so, except for creatures of darkness. Wasn't that why they were afraid a first? Until they saw that Oromë was not filled with darkness?
InyaRay Oktomica: yes..
Shawn Daysleeper: It is inperhaps, also they were just born and in their youth. he whole world probably frightened them. Also, there was the battle between Valar and Melkor.It had it's effects there
Fifi Wickentower: . . .Wait, was it Melkor's spies that knew of the elves, and spied and set their minions to harass them.At that point, Middle Earth was under the control of Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Oh yes, he didn't lose any time
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Isn't that why the Valar became involved?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It was. It wouldn't do to have Melkor take control of the elves
Shawn Daysleeper: To clear a path for the migrations?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . And that is how Melkor came to be hauled up on charges . . The Valar waged war against him and managed to stop the madness. The migrations were not the focus . . the actual protection and allowing the Elves to LIVE was
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yes, it was no easy job stopping Melkor. : It never is. HOW many times have we tried? We can slow him down for a while ...
Shawn Daysleeper: And even if you stop him, he has plenty of minions carrying out the job
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . sigh, That too
Fifi Wickentower: . . . But there were 3 ages (at least) without his interference.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yes, at the end of the First Age, that imprisonment worked. Then, as Shawn said, Sauron took over the position. You will notice that Sauron seems to have been missing at the big battle at the end of the First Age. Busy saving his own sorry posterior, it seems.
Shawn Daysleeper: Yes, he was hidden away so some of Melkor's legacy would survive
Fifi Wickentower: . . . weasel
Shawn Daysleeper: and he'll take over
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I doubt Melkor planned to protect Sauron
InyaRay Oktomica: Not while there are such as we..
Fifi Wickentower: . . . He'll plot and plan and rub his hands together, but he will never win
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Not for long, at least
InyaRay Oktomica: Such pain they have brought, to mar Arda. This music of worlds .. made sour by them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ((Even though these discussions are "out of character", you notice we never seem to totally escape our characters))
Carleen Luckstone nods
Fifi Wickentower: . . . character?? what character lol
Shawn Daysleeper: It is interesting to note, that almost on the same page, Tolkein describes both: the beauty of the elven youth is unmatched, and Melkor's capturing and creating orcs from elves as Melkors most vile deed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What do you think would have happened if Oromë had found the elves before Melkor had found them? Well, it was a vile deed
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Maybe less initial fear
Shawn Daysleeper: Yes, but the most beautiful and most vile on the same page
InyaRay Oktomica: Polarities
Shawn Daysleeper: Just interested me
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Corrupting the most beautiful of creations
Fifi Wickentower: . . . One thing I found interesting was the comment that the elves grew weaker but not less beautiful
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Oh, yes, I noticed that
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Like a master copy is always the clearest
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . But their beauty didn't deteriorate. Well, elves, you are still beautiful!
InyaRay Oktomica smiles
Carleen Luckstone smiles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Where is Ossy the Vain?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . In class. The next term has started
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . heh heh. Well, he will be glad to hear he is still beautiful.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . (miss Ossy) And our High King is one of the few remaining from the olden days
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . The Ainur aren't exactly ugly ^^
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . :) We model ourselves on elves, mostly
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So what would have happened if Melkor hadn't found the elves first?
Shawn Daysleeper: There would be no orcs?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . They may have embraced the whole concept . . . no fear to overcome
Shawn Daysleeper: I do
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Would the Ainur have tried to move them the Aman?
Shawn Daysleeper: I think they would have tried to move them. Ainur wanted them close by
Fifi Wickentower: . . . What would have been the need?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "They're so cute!" "Can we keep them?"
Shawn Daysleeper: ya lol
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Arda was created for the Elves. It was the creation song. It was our joy!! There was nothing to be protected from. No blight at all without Melkor
InyaRay Oktomica: Had the elves refused Oromë .. perhaps the Valar would have gone to them ..
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Which might have been better, in the long run
Shawn Daysleeper: If there was no Melkor, or if he was behaving, then the Ainur may not have wanted to move the elves. But --
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Are we talking about if there was no evil in the world?
Shawn Daysleeper: I misunderstood the question
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Or if Melkor were around, but hadn't found the elves yet?
Shawn Daysleeper: Because Melkor would have attacked them anyways even if Oromë had found them first
Fifi Wickentower: . . . This whole exodus and all was unnecessary if Arda had been let thrive -- speculation sisters lol
InyaRay Oktomica: So many twists and turns in a history
Shawn Daysleeper: But that isn't the case. Arda was marred
Carleen Luckstone: I thank you for welcoming me to your land this eve, but alas, I must retire now.
{Farewells all around.}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . there is the constant question whether the Ainur handled the situation well
Shawn Daysleeper: they say hindsight is always 20/20, but I'm not so sure here, with the Ainur's choice
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In what way?
Shawn Daysleeper: Well, with the song of creation, they should have been let be. But then there was Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . who was not going to let the elves be
Shawn Daysleeper: The Ainur should have left the elves in Arda, according to the song, as I understand it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That makes sense
InyaRay Oktomica: It did create a separation that would not have been. Yet they might all have perished together instead
Shawn Daysleeper: the Kindred separations?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Maybe, as you said, we should have moved to Middle Earth
Shawn Daysleeper: ah yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Would that have changed the Ainur? more than they must have changed over the centuries?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Maybe the problem was when the Ainur moved to Aman, tried to make a gated community in Aman. I imagine it would have changed the Ainur, made them less aloof
InyaRay Oktomica: They could never be of the creation in any case
Shawn Daysleeper: true. But then there is Melkor: Ainu in Aman
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . He certainly interacted with Middle Earth!
Shawn Daysleeper: mildly put lol So the other Ainur had to intervene in Arda because of Melkor's actions? I'm asking
InyaRay Oktomica: They thought so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, the Ainur couldn't just leave the elves to melkor's tender attentions
Shawn Daysleeper: Or were they planning to intervene in Arda the whole time?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . Not at all
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The question is, what was the best way to intervene
InyaRay Oktomica: Perhpas it was their wish to 'have them'
Shawn Daysleeper: true, tell that to Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I'm not sure the Ainur were planning ahead much at that point
InyaRay Oktomica: a chld who finds a bird fallen from a nest, and takes it to 'safety'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "It seemed like a good idea at the time"
InyaRay Oktomica: And these beautiful children , singing under the stars.. who could leave them to Melkor ?
Shawn Daysleeper: True. Even though it goes against the song, I would have tried to help them
InyaRay Oktomica: so kind
{Lihan crashes and relogs. Several remarks about Melkor interfering with the internet connections.}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Have we beaten this topic to death?
Shawn Daysleeper: Finished in one meeting, wow
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Two, counting last week
InyaRay Oktomica: I am glad the elves did not all all wind up Orcs..
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What is the topic for next week? The orcs, that the elves did not all turn into?
InyaRay Oktomica: I have never fully understood Orcs, in truth
Feydra Zenoria: . . . . perhaps a blessing
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Orcs dont' understand you, either
InyaRay Oktomica sighs
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Why don't we discuss orcs next time?
InyaRay Oktomica: Can they be redeemed
Shawn Daysleeper: What about orcs, or just orcs in general?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Any questions you have about orcs, I suppose
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Orcs in general and can them be redeemed
InyaRay Oktomica: I wish an Orc would come
Fifi Wickentower: . . . drat . . . I may be unable to make it next week
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . And what about balrogs? Can they be redeemed? Are the lost truly lost
InyaRay Oktomica: so bad ...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Maybe we can talk about "Melkor's posse" next week...grins
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The dragons of Arador reformed
InyaRay Oktomica: I have faith that I could redeem an Orc
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What would it take to reform...that would be hard for an orc? And perhaps we can talk about Drows in a Tolkien world.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the same week?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh, maybe not
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or would that take another week?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, please
Shawn Daysleeper: Maybe 2 weeks on Melkor's posse
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yeah :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Counting drow in the posse?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . idk
Shawn Daysleeper: Drow is speculative
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But since they figure in fantasy rp so greatly, we could speculate on their origins in a Tolkien world
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . There does seem to be room for them
Shawn Daysleeper: That could take a week by itself
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree :)
Shawn Daysleeper: But I am interested in the enemies. Never thought about them too much before.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We should be. They are important to the rp
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Should they be moved to next week?
InyaRay Oktomica: The elves should feel a deep compulsion to redeem Orcs.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think we should start with Orcs
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think part of us are repulsed by them and part of us want to save them, Inya.
Shawn Daysleeper: I feel they should be redeemed
InyaRay Oktomica: Created in beauty, they should have that core, somehow to be found
Fifi Wickentower agrees with Inya
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . For elves, I would think, it would be hard to admit that an elf could be so twisted and perverted...
Shawn Daysleeper: It's not like they had a choice in the matter, and their origins
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That there would be this inner fear that there, but for the grace of Eru, could be any of us elves. Could me or Nolë. There would be that discomfort is realizing they are near kin, was once kin.
InyaRay Oktomica: But also their best chance
Shawn Daysleeper: ya could easily spend a week on this
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ok...so, Orcs next week
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Thank you, all so much, for making these discussions, so awesome
