Tolkien Discussion Group
November 17, 2010
Topic: The Awakening of the Elves
Present:
Tuatha Shippe
Harumi Oanomochi
Kellinar Trevellion
AelKennyr Rhiano
Jillian Newey
Lihan Taifun
Stormbird Shepherd
Fifi Wickentower
Summary:
A late story, “Cuivienyarna”, by Tolkien describes a “legend of the Elves”, where three male and three female elves awakened first, and collected the other newly awakened elves into their tribes. In this version of the story, Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë are not the kings/leaders of their tribes, but only the ambassadors who visited the Blessed Lands.
We find in very stylized that the three pairs of first elves automatically knew to become husbands and wives.
All the Firstborn awoke in adult bodies, so technically did not have a “childhood”. But, since they had no previous experiences, their new life was, in some sense, a “childhood”, and everything was new for them.
There is some resemblance to Athena, who sprang from her father Zeus' head as a full grown adult.
Tolkien's themes are often influenced by his studies of world mythologies. On the other hand, he would have been concerned to keep things compatible with his Catholic sensibilities, and his respectable reputation as a professor at Oxford. Two World Wars would color his outlook as well. Then son Christopher added another layer of editing.
No matter which version of the story Tolkien himself preferred, the Silmarillion version is now so well know that it would take considerable effort to replace it in people's minds. (The Ingwë and Olwë of Fellowship of the Fourth Age prefer the Silmarillion version anyway.)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . shall we get started? Tonight's topic is "the Awakening of the Elves". What did happen at the mysterious "Waters of Awakening"? I didn't find much on it. Did anyone else? I know we have two Firstborn here
Kellinar Trevellion: . . There was the lovely night sky with twinkling stars.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Tolkien's "Cuivienyarna"
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .where are the elves?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Ael plays Olwe, and Kell Ingwe, two of the FIrstborn Elves,so they have a personal interest in this :)
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .ah
AelKennyr Rhiano is whacking his computer and looking for his notes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Silmarillion says remarkably little
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . According to a legend of the Elves, the first Elves were awakened by Eru Ilúvatar near the bay of Cuiviénen. The first Elf to awake was called Imin ("First"). Next to him lay Iminyë, who would become his wife. Near where Imin woke, awoke Tata ("Second") and Tatië, and Enel ("Third") and Enelyë.
Imin, Tata, and Enel and their wives joined up, and walked through the forests. They first came across six pairs of Elves, and Imin, as eldest, claimed them as his people, and woke them. After a short time Imin and his people, together with Tata and Enel, continued their journey. Next, they came across nine pairs of Elves, and Tata as second eldest, claimed them as his people. After a short time the now thirty-six Elves continued their journey. Then they found twelve pairs of Elves, and Enel, as third eldest, claimed them as his people.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, unlike Some Creators, Eru remembers to make them in pairs ...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . For many days the now sixty Elves dwelt by the rivers, and they began to invent poetry and music.
Finally they set out again, but Imin thought to himself that since each time they had found more Elves and his folk was least in size, he would now choose last.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . They came across eighteen pairs of Elves, who were watching the stars, and Tata and Enel waited for Imin to claim them for his people, but Imin told them he would wait, so Tata added them to his folk. They were tall and had dark hair, and they were the fathers of most of the Ñoldor of later times.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . So, Ingwe and Olwe are first born from these pairs?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that has always been my question, because from reading the Silmarillion, I thought we woke up at the Waters of Awakening.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Yes....seems a bit more confusing now.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or *were* you among the elves who woke up? Maybe these were alternate names for you
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Oh....hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . idk
Kellinar Trevellion: . . me neither
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . this account confuses me greatly
The tale of Imin, Tata and Enel, known as Cuivienyarna, was a very late writing by Tolkien, written as part of Quendi and Eldar. They replaced Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë as the eldest Elves, who now merely became the first ambassadors and the Kings of the Elves in exile.
That begs another question...how is Elwe my older brother if we both were awakened at the same time?
Harumi Oanomochi: . My source said that the "Cuivienyarna" was written much later by Tolkien and that the three firstborn, Imin, Tata, and Enel basicaly replaced Ingwë, Finwë and Olwe, and Elwë as the firstborn
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, a slightly different version of the story
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, that is also what I found. But my question is why the change? and to me, it muddles the waters as to Olwe's background a little.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . this story has a very mythological feel, where the Silmarillion story sounds more "natural"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . From reading the Silmarillion, it would sound like Ingwe, Olwe, Elwe...they had no childhood but awoke full grown.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Tolkien spent a lot of time refining the world he had created...some things that he wasn't happy with, he changed. I think he was a very meticulous writer, and not above changing and contradicting older "canon"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . very true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, and that is the nature of creative writing.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .canon is a good word
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it seems like whoever awoke at the waters would have had no childhood
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the writing flows
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .which do you prefer, Ael?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Really, I want to see what others think, tonight.
Harumi Oanomochi thinks she sees a smile on Ael's face
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . all I found was the account in Book of Lost Tales, which is a much earlier version of the story, and very similar to the SIlmarillion, except for the names of the three eldest elves. Well, the awakening scene is very similar
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Either we had different names in the beginning or there is a considerable gap. Those others are not mentioned later nor the more recognizable names earlier.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well...having a childhood is magical stuff...so i dont like their not having one
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but, how can you say they are really "adult" until they have had some experience?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .maybe that part could be changed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the same way Athena sprung full grown from the head of Zeus? and euuuw....gross
Harumi Oanomochi: . good point, Lihan...even one who awakens adult, is still on a great learningcurve, not unlike a childhood of sorts.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . sounds very messy
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . yuck
Harumi Oanomochi: . Yes, I was thinking of that too, Ael.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but surely the elves had to experience everything for a first time
Harumi Oanomochi: . He had a massive headache so the story goes. :-)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . rofl yes
Jillian Newey giggles
Kellinar Trevellion: . . O.o
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .born of HIS head..thats disgusting
Kellinar Trevellion: . . For real?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .an abomination
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and not like Zeus ever had trouble having children the ordinary way O.O
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . eeeppp
Harumi Oanomochi: . That's the myth...some think it happened that way because the Greeks couldn't bear the thought of such a powerful Goddess as Athena coming from the body of a mere Goddess--but I'm wandering off topic
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . heh heh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well using his head had to be a first for Zeus
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . rofl
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So, if they were awakened in adult form...that would explain the way they reacted when they met Orome for the first time, or how they trusted so in Melkor. It would explain their fearfulness
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . they were children still
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .ummm...who gave birth to them?....a big cow?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . emotionally, yes, Jilly
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .ok..so they were gods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Who were gods?
Harumi Oanomochi: . The firstborn were formed by the hand of Elu...but they weren't gods.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .their parents had to be or it would have been a bad birthing experience..thats all im saying
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Originally, in the 1910s and 1920s, Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë (their final names) were the eldest of the Elves. By 1959 or 1960, Tolkien wrote a detailed account of the awakening of the Elves, called Cuivienyarna, part of Quendi and Eldar. Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë now became the first ambassadors and the Kings of the Elves. This text only saw print in The War of the Jewels, part of the analytical The History of Middle-earth series, in 1994, but a similar version was included in The Silmarillion in 1977.
This kind of gives us a historical perspective of the formation of the story.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, the Silmarillion version was an earlier draft?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that is the way it sounds
Harumi Oanomochi: . Right...CHristopher Tolkien published 12 volumes of the History of Middle Earth from his father's writings
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . 12? wow
Harumi Oanomochi: . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, as long as geeks keep buying them ... :)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . ahem
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . (actually I don't have them, and haven't read them, but that is a budget issue, not a lack of interest)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . mhm
Harumi Oanomochi: . The volume in question for purposes of this discussion is called The War of the Jewels.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . on the other hand, since Silmarillion was published first, it now has more credibility, whether that was JRRT's intention or not
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, good point.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .Lihan..i agree
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .not that his son couldn't be trusted or anything
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not that, but it is hard, mentally, to replace the Silmarillion images with any other version
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So the idea is that just like Tolkien's work has forever defined Hobbit, in popular imagination, the Silmarillion defines the awakening of the elves in Tolkien's world?
Harumi Oanomochi: . Well, in a rather cynical viewpoint, the son saw a way to continue to make money by publishingall those books and more, one of the last being the Children of Hurin. So, was it done to elucidate his father's wishes? Perhaps. But maybe not.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .yes...let it be that way, Ael
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hey,it was Christopher who had Silmarillion published, too
Harumi Oanomochi: . True...but it was more put together before his father's death. At least that's my understanding.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but what I was saying was that it requires some work to use a different version
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree. and to fight againt popular interpretation
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, the Silmarillion is going to define the "popular" interpretation
Harumi Oanomochi: . And I think Ael and Kell are correct to use the Silmarillion version of the firstborn. Else they would be constantly explaining their existence.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .seems we're leaning towards the original
Kellinar Trevellion: . . So that means we are still as old as dirt.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . at least it depends on how much effort you want to put into having a non-Silmarillion version
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The thing about writers who die and leave an unpublished volume of work is that they can no longer have a say in what the public sees.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Ael, that is also a keen point.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We don't know if, when all is said and done, that Tolkien preferred the later versions or his original.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Kell....yep...you and dirt...practically twins
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahahah
Kellinar Trevellion: . . sheesh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . you might also have been one of those 144 unnamed elves who got swept up into the 3 tribes
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .Kell...just this part...I'm sure the debate will continue about others particulars
Kellinar Trevellion: . . That is true Lihan
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . although is would be convenient of Olwe and Ingwe agreed on their story :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It's a little thorny, that newer version...how did those firstborn elves know to marry?
Jillian Newey giggles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes ... you wouldn't expect hormones to kick in that soon
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Me Ingwe....You ????
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol It is a rather "too neat" story.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well we know how asexual tolkien was....so its not surprising
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is also a question that is rather hard to pose about Tolkien without someone getting upset...
Harumi Oanomochi <--- all ears (pointy)
Tuatha Shippe <leans in to listen> yesssss?
Jillian Newey tilts her head
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is this viewpoint of his work havng a strong Catholic overtone....
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well, its true, old school catholic
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but if you read the early stuff, at least for me...I see the influence of world mythologies on the literature.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . he was a medieval scholar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and in the later writings...there I see an argument for a Catholic undertone.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . AGREES
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yes, Fifi.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he seemed to do a lot of experimenting with putting themes from various literatures into his writing
Harumi Oanomochi: . and the 1st World War in which he fought also had some definite lasting impressions that are reflected in his work.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .maybe skipped 'childhood' too because its...a messy business. Most greek gods had no childhoods either
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . who wants to potty train 144 new elves?
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, LOL!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . BTW, I don't think they had adult size Diapers or "pull-ups"AelKennyr Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hahaha
Harumi Oanomochi: . The thought of Olwe in Pull-ups boggles this elve's mind
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha boggles his, too
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . eeepppp
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I hear they leak
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . ewww
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . *facepalms*
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no no..they let him run naked
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . O.o
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . nice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . erm...no
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .its the easiest way
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . probably, had clothes been invented yet?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .depends on the weather, id imagine
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . really cold hum
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . How much of that catholic undertone was perhaps an effort to make his blending and using of world mythologies "palatable?"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . making them palatable to his own sensibilities
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Harumi is right...we must remember he wrote during the time of a World War.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and WWI was dubbed as "mankind's loss of innocence." by some scholars.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . two World Wars
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yes, to be very precise, TWO. Quite right to correct me.
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . one writes of what they know even fiction
Harumi Oanomochi: . Ael, I think you have a point...there is a thin veil betwixt Catholic doctrine, Mythos, and heresies
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . orthodoxy was very much the watchword of his society
Harumi Oanomochi: . nods...especially being a don...he had a reputation to protect
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .a Don? you jest
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no?
Harumi Oanomochi: . what I meant by "don" is an Oxford University professor...sorry...it's the UK term.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .oh...thank you Harumi
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . she was thinking godfather
Harumi Oanomochi: . :-) hehehe...thinking of Tolkien wielding a tommy-gun and chomping a ceegar.
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hahaha
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and you complain about *my* images!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, um, we were at JRRT had his respectable university reputation to protect
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . thus the need for orthodoxy
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . as well as not wandering too far from his Catholic sensibilities
Harumi Oanomochi nods
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no sinful fleshy stuff
Jillian Newey giggles
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .so....tell us about the elves...<wants to hear more>
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . you were heading toward saying that the later versions were more "cleaned up"?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think Christopher did that ...I think Tolkien himself felt the need to follow conventional and accepted philosophies and outlooks.
Harumi Oanomochi: . yes, well...a posthumous editing will do that, especially when the editor is the son of the author.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and especially as the culture and climate of society changes
Harumi Oanomochi: . agreed
Fifi Wickentower: . . . nod nod
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes indeed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So, we are not closer to really discerning what Tolkien really wanted as the "official' version of the awakening of the elves, are we?
Harumi Oanomochi: . So why do you think, if I may change the subject a bit, that Melkor was the first of the Valar to notice the Elves wandering about? Oops...premature query I guess.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no, that is a good one
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . heh heh, two good questions
Harumi Oanomochi: . In answer to Ael's question, I think we shall never know what Tolkien truly wanted because he may have changed his mind yet again if he had lived another 20 years. Christopher always maintains that he goes by comments by his father in correspondence as to which way to take something.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I agree that we may never really know
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree, Harumi
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . To mimic Lucifer's special attention to the advent of men upon the earth?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . he was full of pride
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Melkor was the one hanging around in Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . because they were malleable being innocent creatures?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . there are parallels
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . especially if they were childlike in life experience...they would be easy targets to subvert?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Valar were living in Aman, and most of them not paying much attention
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .but i do think it was because they were easy to prey upon
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the young elves would be easy targets
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, good point on where Melkor was as opposed to the rest of the Valar. I hadn't considered that...and yes...the parallels to Lucifer are there, going back to the Cathlic viewpoint
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . as well as very valuable targets
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so JRRT wrote his "3 Adams and 3 Eves" story, to go with his Lucifer story?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . perhaps
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . many believe that
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .sure does look like it. Melkor isnt exactly greek, doesnt fit
Harumi Oanomochi: . yes...the Elves were unique creatures in the scheme of things, so valuable targets indeed, as well as young in experience and perhaps malleable.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . unique,and arguably the best thing created so far
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Harumi Oanomochi: . Yay! (does the elven happy dance)
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hey Jillian Newey grins big
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . wooohooo
Harumi Oanomochi: . Sorry...missed my dose of humility today
Fifi Wickentower: . . . passes a cup of humiltea
Jillian Newey giggles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . you're character is an elf, Harumi?
Harumi Oanomochi: . through and through
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we shouldn't let Harumi and Jillian sit next to each other, then :)
{Tea is passed. The unicorn (Stormbird) separates the elf and the fae.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps this is a topic to continue next week?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . did we have any more about the Firstborn?
Harumi Oanomochi: . I guess we came to a consensus of sorts that the first version of the "Firstborn" in the Silmarillion is the one from which we will carry on our rp
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I hope so....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . unless Olwe and Ingwe really want the other version
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .yes, Ael....its complicated enough. And a god-king should have his own myth
Harumi Oanomochi: . If there were a Facebook for Elves, Ael and Kell coul just check the "it's complicated" box. *snickers*
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha
Jillian Newey nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . god-king?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .you do see him as a god, yes?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . who?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .yes...the birth says so -- Olwe
Kellinar Trevellion: . . I was thinking about brothers but that won't make sense if we were in pairs.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Gods, No! I mean to the god king, not the brothers.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .well not exactly gods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the first humans, or the first elves, have to come from somewhere
Harumi Oanomochi: . not a god...but an immortal being with what some call magic
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .immortal....but not gods
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . demi-gods?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .hmmm...i dunno
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . all elves are immortal
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .demi-gods...yes good word
Harumi Oanomochi: . and as one of the first of our kind, looked upon with the greatest reverence.
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .hmmm.....never to die?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We can die
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . immortal beings with what some would call magic ... that still applies to all the elves (and the fey too, for different reasons)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We can be killed.
Harumi Oanomochi: . it can be an onerous task, but then Elves *can* die...by accident, poison, injury. But not old age.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but not easily
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . like demi-gods
Fifi Wickentower: . . . a demi god is usually referring to a being whose parents consist if one god and one human'
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . hercules --yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . immortals does not always mean godlike.
Harumi Oanomochi: . mmm...yes, Fifi...demi-gods in the classical sense have one parent who is a god...and I don't think that is what Tolkien had in mind.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . vampires
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . eww
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I agree with Harumi
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .<in norse mythology elves sprang from trees, says our fine unicorn friend in my ear>
Harumi Oanomochi: . *smiles*
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .<or mind>
Fifi Wickentower: . . . have you a need to be god-like?
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . who?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I don't it would occur to the Eldars to perceive themselves as godlike. Do you, Kell?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .his whole kingdom needs for him to be almost as much
Kellinar Trevellion: . . Not really and we didn't have definitive parents.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't think the Eldar think of even the Valar as god-like
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I thnk they reverence the Valar...but not as gods
Harumi Oanomochi: . Yes, but it's as an elder brother...an ancient and wise elder brother who is a king.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . We just woke up, wondered at the beautiful world with innocence.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and thought...WOW.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .no way..the Valar?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps we should continue this next week?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . .but just meeting a Valar would make you feel you were in the presence of a wondrous being, likened to a god
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I'm sorry...I just don't have that interpretation of the valar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ok, next week, the elves reaction to meeting the valar?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . this doesn't sound like a short topic :)
Kellinar Trevellion: . . good
Harumi Oanomochi: . The Valar were the "offspring of...(Elu's) ...thoughts"...The Holy Ones...the first beings created who helped create the world, but I don't think of them as gods.
