Tolkien Discussion Group
November 3, 2010
Wraiths, Orcs, and Monsters, part 2
Present:
Harumi Oanomochi
Shawn Daysleeper
Lihan Taifun
Kellinar Trevellion
AelKennyr Rhiano
Summary:
Tolkiens's “vampires” were distinctively bat-like. Their bat shape seems to be more of a defining feature than drinking blood (although, like many of his monsters, they did enjoy fresh meat). Nor were the vampires in any sense “undead”
Some Ainur were known to take vampire-bat shape. Thuringwethil may have been an Ainu. The bats at the Battle of Five Armies in the Hobbit would have been natural creatures.
Evil Ainur are known to gradually lose their shape-shifting abilities, so it makes sense that Thuringwethil needed a bat-cloak to help her shift to bat-form.
Quick summary of “vibration theory”,with references. We do enjoy metaphysics.
Was there ever a point where the Ringwraiths (or the kings who became the Ringwraiths) could have taken off their Rings, refused the power, and gone free? Or were they trapped from the moment they took the Rings?
Quick review of the Five Wizards, and the three Elven Rings.
When Frodo is fading at the Ford, Tolkien describes the Ringwraiths as being in a parallel spirit world. Glorfindel is visible on the spirit side, too. Gandalf says that “those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power". This would then include all Vanyar, all Alqualondë/Tol Eressëa Teleri, and the original generation of Noldor who returned to Middle Earth. There can't have been many first generation Noldor still in Middle Earth by the end of the Third Age.
On the other hand, the Ringwraiths were solid enough in this physical world to hold weapons and ride (and need) horses.
Morgoth is said to have created orcs by torturing and corrupting captured elves. How exactly is this supposed to work? We have trouble believing it is possible for even Morgoth to permanently damage the elvish nature of their souls. Yet an orcish spirit seem to be completely opposite of an elvish spirit. There are suggestions that Tolkien was not entirely satisfied with his explanation of the origin of orcs.
What about the origins of dragons? Did Morgoth create them or did he corrupt something into dragons?
Topic suggested for the future: the birth of the “Firstborn” Elves.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . well, I have a question about wraiths and the like.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Ring wraiths?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Tolkien was rather religious, I wonder how he felt about his undead monsters
Harumi Oanomochi: . nasty, smelly creatures, foul excretions, fiercely mindless, driven by evil...hopelessly lost.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . wraiths, wights, ghosts et al.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Are there different wraiths I don't know about?
Harumi Oanomochi: . there are even vampires, as mentioned in the story of Luthien and Beren.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . some of them used to be human ... and even the Valar couldn't keep a human spirit from its destiny
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Really? I missed that part.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so .... how can a human spirit get permanently sidetracked as a wraith?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . vampires?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . there were vampires mentioned, yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya there were vampires
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . wow
Harumi Oanomochi: . Luthien disguised herself as a vampire in order to enter Morgoth's lair and help Beren steal the silmaril
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Did Morgoth create these beings?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . vampires of the strickly icky sort, not modern sexy vampires
Harumi Oanomochi: . possibly...yes Lihan...no Gothic prettyclothes and stereotypes. Just bloodsucking fiends, sort of bat-like
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and were they natural (so to speak) creatures, or Ainur? yes, bloodsucking, flesh-eating fiends
Harumi Oanomochi: . I don't know but I think not Ainur to begin with
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . idk....sounds like your usual orc, goblin or such. They were ate anything.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, if they didn't start out Ainu, they wouldn't become Ainu later
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, good point.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . A mysterious form taken by certain of the servants of Morgoth.
Tolkien's use of the term 'vampire' is never completely clear, but he does not seem to intend the sort of undead monster we typically associate with the word. Indeed, none of his characters actually are vampires, but at least two were known to take the form of a vampire on occasions: Thuringwethil and Sauron himself. From the context of their descriptions, these two seem to have transformed themselves into a monstrous bat-like creature so that they could travel swiftly, and it's this bat-form that's referred to as a 'vampire'.
Vampires also make a brief appearance in the account of the Battle of Five Armies, at the end of Bilbo's journey to the Lonely Mountain. There, a cloud of bats followed the Goblin armies. Those bats don't seem to have been actual vampires, but they attacked their foes in much the same way.
ok, those I do remember
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and Kell is right, lots of baddies enjoy fresh meat
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . So, that means Ael that not only were there bat creatures but a reference to another species known as vampires?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so these "vampires" were distinctively bat-like?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . yes, they were bat-like, but not vampires as Bram Stroker's Dracula.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Thuringwethil the fell bat of Melkor, the messenger of Morgoth. Thuringwethil took the shape of a vampire it said in the Sillmarilion
Harumi Oanomochi: . Yes, remember Reading about one flying with blood dripping from its throat.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . They were bats. Big, nasty looking bats with big teeth and some evil spirit living inside them. But definitely not Draculas.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so, giant blood-drinking bats
Shawn Daysleeper: . . oooo
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . wow
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Thuringwethil sounds like she might have been Ainu
Harumi Oanomochi: . some speculated she was a Maia
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Isn't it true that an Ainu can take form and it might be really anything?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, Kell, and the evil ones seem to gradually lose their shape-shifting ability
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I don't recall Thuringwethil playing any important role.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . And so are stuck with a certain form then?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I think her main role was that Luthien stole her bat-shape-shifting-cloak. Yes, the evil Ainur can get stuck in a form
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Well, if you go with the Vibrations theory, much discussed here, then to lose the shape-shifting makes sense. And this theory would have been well known to Tolkien, being Catholic.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so it is plausible that Thuringwethil needed her cloak to help her shape-shift
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . it is
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Sort of like Sauron and his ring that he poured his magicks and energy.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I'm pretty sure the Catholics don't call it "vibrations theory", though O.o Yes, very much like Sauron and his Ring
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I am not sure if modern Catholics would even be acquainted with it. But it goes all the way back to the Middle Ages.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . You lost me with the "vibrations theory". What is it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . ok.....Back in the Middle Ages, there was this idea, this concept of the "Music of the Spheres." And it was, and for some, still believed that everything in the universe "vibrates" at a certain frequency or level. And the closer to God you are, the higher, the more pure the frequency...
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . In the Middle Ages? Sounds awful scientific for the times.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the "Music of the Spheres" sounds like something from Greek mathematics
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I believe its roots go back to that, yes.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . That makes more sense.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . So Angels, being closer to God, vibrate higher and more pure....engaging in a harmonic praise of God
Shawn Daysleeper: . . wow, very nice, I have heard the term but did not know what it meant
Harumi Oanomochi: . what's interesting is that there are corollaries of sorts in modern physics
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Angels, vibrating at a higher frequency, are less "dense," less physical in form.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I didn't think Angels even have form on this plane at all.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . No, they were not designed to...however....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . not routinely
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . in Judeo-Christian mythologies, some angel did descend to earth … and they clothed themselves in mortal flesh...
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Why?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . they were jealous of God's attention to humans.... others were just curious.......
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, when they are on duty as messengers, they have to at least be visible
Harumi Oanomochi: . Thinks of her Wolfstar and his history and nods.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . but some were attracted to human females and desired them. Thus were giants born.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Would not these feelings of jealously simply drop one's higher vibrational energies to a lower level?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . For this transgression, God banished them from heaven, and these angels....yes, exactly, Kell. Some became bond to the earth. Others became "fouled" with their base emotions and became demons.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . wow
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Oh yuck Is it not the goal of humans to spiritually ascend to the higher planes? Sounds like an elevator..lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Precisely.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . You are now in the Red Zone, please disembark at the tone.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . So...Tolkien would have known this, as he was very acquainted with mythologies from around the world. And being a Catholic of the time, would have been aware.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so where do you read this, Ael? I've been Christian all my life, and never heard anything like this, except bits from you
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . If you give me a moment, let me see if I can get some internet references.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . kk Harumi, you notice our discussions tend to wander
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I was going to specialize, at one time, in Medieval literature , and took several classes in mythologies.....Joseph Campbell discusses these sort of things as well....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I would expect he does
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_universalis not very helpful, I am afraid.
{Ael spends a long time looking up references. AelKennyr Rhiano gave you New Note.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Not exactly what I was looking for, actually. But if you want really good books on the evolution of Christianity... John Dominic Crossan and Elaine Pagels are very good authors
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . have to look that up 
Shawn Daysleeper: . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . A lot of this is now mixed with new age thought and theory, so it is hard to find it the way it was presented to me
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . So, back to wraiths... Like the ring wraiths sort of sold their souls into their rings and became controlled by Sauron.
Harumi Oanomochi: . smiles...waits for orcs to show up. ;-)
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Shhh....don't tell Vaurk..he may show up and he's an orc.
Harumi Oanomochi: . YEs...Kell...the ring wraiths made themselves what they were using the power of their rings for the wrong purposes.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . you wonder whether the ringwraiths knew what they were getting into?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I doubt it but greed for power did them in and their minds were weak.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, I think at some point they realized that they were doomed, but at that point had become so corrupt they no longer cared.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it seems like the only "safe"option was what the elves did -- immediately take the rings off again. Exactly, Harumi -- was there ever a point where they could have stopped? or were they doomed from the start?
Harumi Oanomochi: . exactly...Elrond and Galadriel never wore them.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . They lost the human capacity for remorse and compassion when they kept the rings on.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, at the beginning perhaps...only using their power for the greater good....but it would have been nearly impossible with how power corrupts.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Kell, I agree...they made the mistake of keeping them on.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and not only power in general, but Sauron's power, and under his influence
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Well, after Sauron made the One Ring after the others were already forged is when things got bad.
Harumi Oanomochi: . BTW, the third ring was held by Gandalf.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I didn't know he had one.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . originally Cirdan, who gave it to Gandalf
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . The shipwright?
Harumi Oanomochi: . The ring of Fire. Yes...Cirdan entrusted it to him.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . he kept his hidden, even more than Elrond and Galadriel did
Harumi Oanomochi: . aye
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . wow
Harumi Oanomochi: . I don't believe the Istari were ever really human, though they looked human.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . What are the Istari?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Istari are ainu in the disguise of old men
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . they had physical bodies -- "human" in that sense
Harumi Oanomochi: . The wizards...Saruman, Gandalf...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the 5 Wizards
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . They were Ainu? I thought they were Maiar
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and 2 others
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Maiar are a rank of Ainur
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . And maiar are the lesser Ainu, right?
Harumi Oanomochi: . yes
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . okies
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . as opposed to the Valar, and there are only 14 of them
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I used to get confused as a long time ago I thought Maia/Maiar were just elementals.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . the other two wizards were Alatar and Pallando, according to unfinished tales
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . some of them would be elementals
Harumi Oanomochi: . ah...I wondered about that Shawn.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Oh..I didn't read those. I don't have those in my collection 
Shawn Daysleeper: . . They were all maiar, Gandalf was Olorin, a servant maia of Manwe.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . ohhh
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Radagast served Yavanna. His maia name was Aewindil.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . He was a distracted one....liked experimenting I think
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Saruman was Curumo, he served Aule. Shawn Daysleeper: . . Alatar served Orome. Pallando served Nienna
Harumi Oanomochi: . I thought Gandalf was Mithrandir?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . So, a fair number of Ainu eventually served the dark side. I think Gandalf had many names over the milleniums.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Gandalf's elvish name is mithrandir
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, Mithrandir was what the elves of Middle Earth called him
Harumi Oanomochi: . just looked it up...original name Olorin, the Elves called him Mithrandir (The Grey Pilgrim), and the hobbits and humans called him Gandalf. Whew.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya it seems like everyone had to have a minimum of 5 names
Shawn Daysleeper: . . well, move on to Balrogs?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Fire Maiar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I had one more thing about the ringwraiths. When Frodo was fading, at the Ford, he said he could see the wraiths. And later Gandalf is explaining " ... lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power". And then Frodo says he saw Glorfindel glowing white, in that spirit world.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . oh ya
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Does that include the Vanyars?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn." I would think it would include the Vanyar ("Vanyar" is plural; the singular in "Vanya")
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . ok, I stand corrected
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and you glow in the dark
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Who does?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Ingwe
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . He does? I didn't read that...hmm
Shawn Daysleeper: . . cool
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Teleri, too
Shawn Daysleeper: . . yay !
Harumi Oanomochi: . My hair does. *grins*
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . "all those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm"
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . What about the Noldor that left to go back to Middle Earth?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . like Glorfindel?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . My history about Glorfindel is sketchy.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . are you asking if they glow?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . After the kinslaying, they went to Middle Earth.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . maybe they lost that quality when they were exiled
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it is never clearly explained whether Glorfindel of Rivendell is or is not a reincarnation of Glorfindel of Gondolin
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . hmm
Harumi Oanomochi: . it was a name that meant golden haired, so it was probably well used by others.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I read somewhere that for a time the elven souls in Mandos may eventually be reincarnated exactly as they were before.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, if Gandalf is saying of an elf of Elrond's house that he is visible in the parallel universe, it must have been a Noldo. True, Kell, about Mandos
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . But has anyone read of such reincarnation?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . not that I know of, unless Glorfindel is an example. Mandos was the topic a few weeks ago
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Oh darn...missed it.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . we have archives
Harumi Oanomochi: . Lihan, how does one access the group archives?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I am trying to pull that up, but my computer is being really slow. If I can't get it tonight, I will send out a notice tomorrow
Harumi Oanomochi: . excellent.
{http://www.buildersofarda.org/InteractiveCommunity/Forums/tabid/696/forumid/27/scope/threads/Default.aspx}
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . oh, cool, I glow
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya I glow too hehe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . that passage where Frodo is fading sounds like two parallel universes
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Yes it does
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . whenever he puts on the ring, he vanishes from this universe, and becomes visible there
Harumi Oanomochi: . nods...makes sense
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and he can see the ringwraiths, when he has the ring on, and is "over there"
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . good point
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . oh, and I see a little earlier Gandalf says that when Frodo was wearing the ring, the wraiths could have grabbed him
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Even so, they still have solid form wherever they go and can cause physical damage.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . true ... they can hold a physical weapon, and ride a physical horse
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya I think whenever he wore the ring, he was in the spirit world, after the ring has awoken. Bilbo could use it with no problem because it had not heard it's masters call
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, so that suggests Tolkien was picturing a "spirit world"
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya, I agree
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Yes, I can agree with that.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . But the noldor who remain in middle earth...would they lose this ability over time? to not fear or to see the ringwraiths?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . It seemed among the humans parallel with RL humans on the belief of spirit. I was thinking of religion like the Halls of Valhalla or Heaven kinda thing.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, there was at least one elf, at the Ford, who hadn't lost that ability, at the end of the Third Age
Harumi Oanomochi: . Arwen?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . good point, Lihan
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Glorfindel
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . She did call the horses of the waters.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Aha...
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Oh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Arwen was born in Middle Earth, so she probably never had it. Elrond was born in Middle Earth
Harumi Oanomochi: . right.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Oh....the glow...got it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . there wouldn't have been a lot of original Noldor left, really
Shawn Daysleeper: . . the glowing ability
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . What about Galadriel? She should glow, right?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . glowing, being visible in the spirit world. Galadriel, yes. Some versions of the story have Celeborn born in the Undying Lands
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Versions?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . very confusing there.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . very
Shawn Daysleeper: . . yes, very
Shawn Daysleeper: . . I am sorry but I need to go rest
{Farewells}Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Gandalf says that "some" of the original Firstborn are living in Rivendell, but there can't have been many
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I would like to have that as a topic one night, the actual "birth" of the first born...to me it is a little confusing.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . does Olwe have a belly button?
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes. It's an "innie".
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I have a question about orcs, gobins and Uru Khai. Well, it was mentioned that these were twisted beings of former elves. How is this possible?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and, do the spirits of dead orcs go to Mandos?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . makes sense they would.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Are you suggesting that the body and memory of an elf is corrupted but the elf's actual spirit is no longer there and is in Mandos?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . no, I was asking whether an orc still has an essentially elvish spirit?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I would argue yes?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . because it would be really horrible if Morgoth found a way to remove their spirits
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Did he remove the souls of humans who served him?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Weren't they tortured to submit and even so would they have a chance for redemption? He had a huge army.....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I would think so. It is hard to imagine Morgoth could undo Eru's work. That seems like one of those archetypal issues from "battle of good and evil" -- there are limits to how far evil can damage a being
AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement, Even a fallen angel can be redeemed.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . A ring wraith had been killed in the Third Age...where did his spirit go?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . You would think it went -- finally -- wherever human spirits go. So what was the question? how did Melkor twist elves into orcs?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I was thinking if the beings that Morgoth had remade had the original spirits in them. They seemed the exact opposite of what that spirit once lived and believed.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . they do
Harumi Oanomochi: . I read recently that Tolkien had several origins of Orcs. Beasts in humanoid shape created by Morgoth, tortured Avari elves, and fallen Maiar. According to Christopher Tolkien, his father wasn't comfy with the elven origin and was rewriting things at the time of his death.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Oh wow...ok Cool reference
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, I never heard that before
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Why wasn't he?
Harumi Oanomochi: . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . if Morgoth can't create anything himself, he would have to corrupt something
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Did he create the dragons?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I thought so, bred them as weapons
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . I don't think they were former being of anything that he corrupted. Just created a new species.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . they are too smart to have started from lizard DNA
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . lol. I'm sorry I ask so many questions...I know nuthin!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . We have had some speculation in discussions here about them being fallen ainu
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I wonder if there were some Maiar-in-dragon-form in the their ancestry. The Arador dragons believed that
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Questions are good.
Harumi Oanomochi: . Kellinar, that's how you learn.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . you ask good questions
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Hmmm, ok. Well, I figured you folks been doing these discussions for a long time and probably know all this already.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . my browser isn't loading at all, I will get the link to the archives out tomorrow
Harumi Oanomochi: . Kell, it's my second time here.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . hahahahaha, not hardly, Kell
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . we, um, deal in a lot of speculation, too
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Oh, ok. Well, I used to be part of this continent and spent most of my time building and NOT attending a lot of functions here, including the Tolkien Discussions.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Lihan is a scholar. the rest of us are students, armchair scholars....:)
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Harumi seems to be a scholar, too
Harumi Oanomochi: . I just have a fascination and re-read the Silmarillion recently. *blushes*
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Well, this helps me with my role and the Tolkien universe...thanks
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . sometimes we discuss a Silmarillion Chapter
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . wow....been awhile since I read that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . we've gotten up to Chapter 12 -- skipping the Noldor
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Yikes....warn me when you plan to do chapters..I'd have to re-read them.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, we do try to warn people in advance
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . lol...oh good
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so we never did get to balrogs. Shall we save them for next week?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . Fire maiar? Oh ok
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . fire maiar indeed
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . So...elementals - got it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . we can
Harumi Oanomochi: . We shall not pass! *winks*
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . now she is being the teacher? 
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . She may have a great staff hidden.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . that's the bumper sticker on Gandalf's cart, y'know: "You shall not pass"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Walk softly and carry a big wizards's hat? lol
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . grins
Harumi Oanomochi: . yep
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . AND a big stick
