November 23, 2010
An IM from Edward Klossovsky, who is a member of Tolkien Discussion Group but has not attended because of time zone conflicts, to Lihan.He describes a quote from JRRT in 1957 which states that the term “Ainur” is used only in the plural, and only of the spirits before Creation, or those who did not enter Eä. Within Eä, only the terms “Valar” and “Maiar” are used. (quoted in Parma eldalamberon 17)
This contradicts the Silmarillion, and seems to be a difference between Professor Tolkien's later opinions and what Christopher used in Silmarillion. Edward does not consider Silmarillion in any way authoritative.
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Edward Klossovsky: (Saved Tue Nov 23 11:42:37 2010) Hello. I just received a Note from the Tolkien group. If I'm not mistaken you wrote it. I think there is a big mistake in the text "Wednesday, December 1 we will continue our discussion of the Firstborn Elves, taking up their relationship with the Ainur". The Ainur is only used for the immortal spirits as *before* Creation. Those of the Ainur who entered Creation (or Ea) are called Maiar and Valar, not Ainur.Edward Klossovsky: (Saved Tue Nov 23 11:43:23 2010) Cheer. ;) I hope I will be able to attend (I'm in France).
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Hello! Good to hear from you! I wonder whether this is a difference between the French and the English translation.
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Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In the English translation of the Silmarillion, "Ainur" is used to describe the immortal spirits both before and after entering Creation. The Maiar and the Valar are all "Ainur".
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Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "If ever in their dealings with Elves and Men the Ainur have endeavoured to force them when they would not be guided, seldom has this turned to good." -- from "Of the Beginning of Days"Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "So died ... Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur." -- from "Of the Ruin of Doriath"Edward Klossovsky: Hello :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hello!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I do hope you can attend some of our meetings
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . anyone interested enough to write to me must be scholar ;)
Edward Klossovsky: I would be delighted if it occurs in my leisure time.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, time zones are always a problem
Edward Klossovsky: Regarding Ainur. I would like to cite a text published in Parma eldalamberon 17.
Edward Klossovsky: p. 149
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . please do!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't actually have a copy of Parma eldalamberon
Edward Klossovsky: Ainur always appears in plural since after the Creation all those known were Mayar.
Edward Klossovsky: Mayar includes Valar and their lesser kin, but not those who either did not take part in the Great Theme, or else did not enter Eä.
Edward Klossovsky: So Ainur is used only of the spirits before Creation, or of those unnamed who are not concerned with it.
Edward Klossovsky: (end ;))
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . fascinating!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . what is the date for that?
Edward Klossovsky: hard to say the text is called QN in Parma 17
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hmmm, ok
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that will require some research
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . if you know what week you can attend, we could have you explain this to the group!
Edward Klossovsky: just found, sorry took a few minutes to seek in parma 17
Edward Klossovsky: QN is a text written in 1957
Edward Klossovsky: with pleasure :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that makes it a very late reference
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it must be one of those cases where Christopher Tolkien, editing the Silmarillion, did not follow his father's most recent ideas
Edward Klossovsky: For me the Silmarillion of 1977 is not part of the writings of JRR Tolkien. C. Tolkien changed in it too many things.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that is a difficulty with the Silmarillion
Edward Klossovsky: Parma Eldalamberon 17 is mostly a linguistic text but it has some interesting things about the Valar and the Maiar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the linguistic text sometimes give interesting insights into what he was thinking on various topics
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we would love to hear from you, if the times work out
Edward Klossovsky: so when is your next meeting (remind me, please).
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . December 1
Edward Klossovsky: I'm afraid I won't be able to attend, sorry.
Edward Klossovsky: on the 1st...
Edward Klossovsky: but if some one could have a copy of Parma eldalamberon 17.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . where did you get it?
Edward Klossovsky: from their site
Edward Klossovsky: parma eldalamberon
Edward Klossovsky: the n 17 is still in print
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . excellent
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I will have to look it up
Edward Klossovsky: :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and any week that you can attend, we can make this the topic of the week
Edward Klossovsky: http://www.eldalamberon.com/parma17.html
Edward Klossovsky: direct link
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and also the question of how to decide what to believe, when different writings say different things
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . thank you!
Edward Klossovsky: would be nice :)
Edward Klossovsky: yes, it is difficult to know what to believe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . if you don't mind, I would like to put this conversation on the forum archive of our discussion group, so other people can read it
Edward Klossovsky: Yes, please do. :) If it can help other to discus about it.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and I will mention it on Dec 1
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . 7 pm SLT would be very early morning for you, right?
Edward Klossovsky: in Paris it is 23h26 right now
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so I think that makes the Discussion Group start at 0500 for you
Edward Klossovsky: yes, early :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . early!
Edward Klossovsky: how many people usually attend the meetings ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . 3 to 8
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . some of the same people come most weeks, and some people only come occasionally
Edward Klossovsky: I see.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . many of the people are also in Fellowship of the Fourth Age roleplay
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but not all of them
Edward Klossovsky: they seek to have a better roleplaying or have a better understanding of Tolkien's writtings ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . both
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we know that sometimes we have to do things in the roleplay that isn't totally correct from Tolkien
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . s writings, but we do want to understand what would be correct
Edward Klossovsky: Tolkien wrote so many things, it is not easy to decide..
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, that is a problem we often face
Edward Klossovsky: I'm also interested in the Elvish languages, are you or other people in the group ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I certainly am
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and Kellinar is
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . maybe some other people
Edward Klossovsky: ah, good :)
