Tolkien Discussion Group
December 1, 2010
Topic: How Did The First Elves Regard the Ainur?
Present:
Shawn Daysleeper
Dominique Darkwatch
AelKennyr Rhiano
Tuatha Shippe
Lihan Taifun
Jillian Newey
fallamhaim Azemus
Summary:
We have been using the word “Ainur” the same way the Silmarillion does, to refer to the “race” or “species” that includes the Valar and the Maiar. There is evidence that in later years, JRRT moved away from this, and wanted to use “Ainur” only for the spirit beings outside the created world. We decided to keep our current use of the word, since we need a word for “Valar and Maiar as a group.”
The Valar are powerful, but there are definitely limits to their powers and their knowledge.
We see the Valar acting more as “parents” toward the first Elves, rather than “gods”.
The Ainur knew the early history of Arda before it happened, from the Song. But the farther along in history, the less detail the Ainur knew. Probably by the Third Age (or sooner) the Valar had no useful advance knowledge of history.
Tolkien seems to have given the Valar less of a role, after the First Age. In the Third Age (Lord of the Rings), the Valar are only a distant memory (and mostly of one Vala – Elbereth).
Tolkien's early stories of Kortirion/Tol Eressëa explictily describe a distance developing between the Elves and the Valar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . after last week, I got an IM from someone saying we weren't using the word "Ainur" properly
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . oh?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . apparently based on some seldom-published letter from JRRT, where he was explaining that "Ainur" is only used in the plural, and only used of the spirit beings outside of the created world, either before Creation, or those who didn't enter the Created World. This would be different from the Silmarillion usage
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . . .I have not heard of this before
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . neither had I
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . How well known is this letter?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . http://buildersofarda.org/InteractiveCommunity/Forums/tabid/696/forumid/27/threadid/297/scope/posts/Default.aspx
That is the conversation. Well, I had never heard of it before. Apparently it was published in Parma Eldalambaron, which (heh heh) I then had to order (even if I am going to have to deduct it from my Christmas).
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I wasn't saying I agreed with this theory about the word "Ainur", but I promised to mention it to the group, as well as encouraging the person who IMed me to come here in person sometime
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . well it doesnt help regarding role play....to exist only before creation
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . true
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . so much spirit will put solids to sleep
Dominique Darkwatch: . . I think the term is used inclusively for both Maiar and valar
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that is how we always used it, and how the Silmarillion uses it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Parma Eldalamberon 'The Book of Elven-tongues' is a journal of the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship a special interest group of the Mythopoeic Society. I honestly had not heard of it before.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . does that answer your question about "how well known" this reference is?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . While it may be of scholarly interest, I would wonder at the practical value to us, either in role play or in meaningful discussion. Can you shed light on that , Lihan, and what would we use instead of Ainur?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I would agree
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . its a technicality that we'll rarely run across
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . "Ainur" is a useful word for us, to describe the kind of beings the Valar and Maiar are, since the Valar and Maiar have a lot in common and some differences from the created races
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . when we say Ainur...we are refering to a realm of all pre-creation beings?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes..maiar and vala...all of them..so its plural,innately
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, the singular would be "Ainu" -- "an Ainu"
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . now thats the argument? Ainu
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . not really an argument
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . we debate
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . if you assume you can speak of one single being out of the group, then the word would be Ainu. He was saying you would never speak of one by itself
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . well we have to...defining a role, etc., or title
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I agree, it is a useful word for us, and it was good enough for Christopher Tolkien. He kept in in the Silmarillion, in the way we are using it
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . its just practical, is all
fallamhaim Azemus: . . . . may I give you an idea?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . why wouldn't you?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . please
Dominique Darkwatch: . . That is interesting, but if we discount Silmarillion, how much material would remain on the Ainur?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Fallamahaim, you wanted to say something? no need to be shy
fallamhaim Azemus: . . .ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, please
fallamhaim Azemus: . . . . Im thinking of a real time action setting such as someone pats me -- its done in real time -- what you think?
{The young dragon is distracting for a while.}
Dominique Darkwatch: . . A rather crazy night around here
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I think we were agreeing that we want to keep the word Ainur
Dominique Darkwatch nods
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes, Lihan....sensible
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . soooo tonight's orignal topic was how the First Elves regarded those Ainur
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . tell us about your thoughts on this, Lihan. You start
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . please, yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I thought the elves respected the Ainur, but it was nothing like the way humans think of "gods". Maybe because the elves spent so much time living so close to the Ainur, they were less intimidated
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . were the ainur felt more like 'parental' to the elves? guardians?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . That is quite possible. The Noldor, when they left, sound just like teenagers starting to outgrow being under their parents' control
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . this feels right to me
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Yes,I can see it as a sort of "parental" relationship. The Valar felt rather protective of the Elves, but not all the Ainur did. I can imagine some of them just paid attention to their own specialty, and didn't pay that much attention to Elves. (I don't have to be the only person talking)
Dominique Darkwatch: . . I thought the elves were scared at first because the first ones they met were of Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that would be a good reason to be scared
Dominique Darkwatch: . . So when Orome first found them, they were suspicious and not entirely receptive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . can you blame them?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . so the parental figures came to their rescue, i gather? sorry..im so naive
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Melkor was the most watchful of the all the Ainur for the coming of the elves.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Ted and I were talking about Manwe the other night, and he said that it was hard to not see Manwe as godlike...
Jillian Newey smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . But I pointed that it was a matter of perspective...to your dog....well, maybe not both of mine....to one of them, I am like a god
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . he's certainly powerful
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Food appears from my hand....water.... I know when he is not feeling well.... I even have that ever renewing fount of life giving water...the toilet
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . rofl
Jillian Newey laughs
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . .lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . In his eyes, perhaps I am a god. But in my own eyes...no.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . .sorry everyone, I must go
{Goodbyes. Dominique leaves also.}
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes...as angels are seen by humans...but they could be just dimensional beings, depends on your frequency
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . might be a short night
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . We stared very late
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and got interrupted a lot at the beginning
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes
Jillian Newey nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . so the Ainur are powerful, but not all-powerful
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think so. I always had a problem with those who insist on seeing them as demigods
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . still...its like comparing arch angels with God
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and certainly there are limits to their knowledge
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, I even suggest to Ted...what if Manwe could not see into the 4th Age...into what would happen? What if his knowledge of the song was that limited? It could be and he would still be a very powerful being
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . what he that limited
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, it seems like the farther into history, the less clear the Valar's knowledge was
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes. There has to come a time beyond which they could not see...
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . this is true in other philosophical systems
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . or you would have beings who could one day be rival gods to Eru.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . the closer to godhead, the more vague
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I kinda had the impression the Valar didn't know much of future history beyond the First Age
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . So they could not see the future of the 3rd Age?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that would be my guess
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . I keep thinking of Kortirion
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . interesting
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . what about Kortirion?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . the 2nd age..it was a revered city with all the valar present, at least for worship. Then it became likened to a cathedral city..where elves came to learn about the 1st age and all the valar. I'm unsure of the correct ages this happened
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . the elves of the Undying Lands?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . the elves who remained on Tol Eressea
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . ok
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . its as if the vala were forgotten in a way, communing with vala ceased
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . the name "Kortirion" would be from JRRT's early ideas
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes..along with Tol eressea..early on
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . from the time he was still calling the Valar "gods"
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . he had gotten somewhat away from that by the time he wrote Lord of the Rings
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . early versions of J. R. R. Tolkien's legendarium
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . but my point is...there was a distancing from vala at some phase
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . do you suppose he had come to the idea that godlike beings don't make for such a good story? distancing of the elves from the Valar?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It sounds like it, Lihan.
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . as if they were forgotten... and those that chose to remember went to Kortirion to learn the old ways
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . The name is the Elvish for "Lonely Island". In early versions, the Cottage of Lost Play is located in Kortirion, the island's main city, and it is here that Eriol the Mariner comes. There is an early poem by Tolkien, entitled "Kortirion", several versions of which can be found in The Book of Lost Tales, Volume I.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, in the second age, and later, we mostly hear about the elves (and humans) in Middle Earth
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . right
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Tol Eressëa was conceived as a mythological equivalent of the island of Great Britain or Albion before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. Its main city, Kortirion, was located at the same place as Warwick, at the very centre of the island. Later, Tolkien dropped the identification of Tol Eressëa and Albion and made it an island situated far to the west, within sight of Valinor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . so I expect that the elves in Middle Earth were getting distanced
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . getting distracted by melkor and his lot as well
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . by the end of the Third Age, there were only a hand full of elves in Middle Earth who had ever been in the Undying Lands
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . that helps, lihan,the end of the 3rd age
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . So by the 4th Age, it was becoming the stuff of legend
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . right, exactly
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . somehow..the frequency changed due to melkor
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That is how I perceive it, too
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . they lost touch
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . they talk about "Elbereth", but she is a very distant figure
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . the elves were suffering from constant post trauma stress...lol ... and couldnt engage the vala
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . oh dear, plenty of trauma!
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . do i make sense Ael?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and remember that the elves who had been in the Undying Lands and were now in Middle Earth had stomped out in a teenage temper tantrum, and gotten in trouble for it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think PTSD would be appropriate
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . i think thats all i was suggesting about Kortirion...the transition
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . oh, ok
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . what was once a living relationship with the vala changed into a personification of gods, like the pantheon of gods on olympus
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . but not in Tol Eressea on EArth.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and the humans, who had never met the Valar, tended to see them as "gods"
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes..i would assume so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . but not based on any personal experience
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . Tol Eressea always tried to keep it alive
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . but..I think it became more of a ...'wonder of the world' later on
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . the elves of Tol Eressea could go visit Valimar
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes, early on...they were very much engaged with Ainur, the Teleri that is
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . we really don't know how they were later, that doesn't come into the stories
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . it must be my imagination lol sinse i spend so much time trying to imagine what happened later in ages
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . sure, that's what Fellowship of the Fourth Age is about :D
{Ael leaves. Goodbyes}
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . I have done a lot of thinking about this transition\
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . but i need to read more, Lihan..to be honest
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . how do you picture the elves of Tol Eressea, in later ages?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . well...the later 1st age...they got permission to leave the Island. They had ...grown in skill and understanding, learned to build ships, and Ulmo told them..they could depart for the mainland...Aman ... once they acheived these abilities So they left and built Aqualonde, but some remained behind,and thus Kortirion was built in honor of the Ainur
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . the Teleri lived in both Tol Eressea and Alqualonde
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . yes, and Tol eressea became more known for knowledge and merchant port, a tourist attrction i would assume by the 4th age, just guessing
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I never thought of "tourist attraction", but I bet you are right. Did Alqualonde have a specialty?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . Aqualonde seemed to remain totally Teleri, for quite a while.Its the transition aspect or Tol eressea. It too lost its connection...yet it tried to teach and stay connected with the ainur as long as there was still interest
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . so how is Tol Eressea related to Kortirion?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . it was likened to a university..Kortirion, i mean. Tol eressea was reknown for knowledge..ancient knowledge AND...new knowledge brought by travellers/merchant class from all over the world. I am deciding which age to design for the cathedral city, which is a university as well
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . so you think the ainur had lost interest in the elves of Tol Eressea? in later ages?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . no....the telri who remained were very much 'old ways' oriented
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . what should we talk about next week?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . you want to decide later? I have no idea
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . nothing you always wondered about?
Jillian Newey: . . . . . . . . . I just sit and learn
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . . . . you decide..its always good
