Present:
Kellinar Trevellion
Tuatha Shippe
Shawn Daysleeper
Lihan Taifun
Summary:
The Numenoreans held several annual festivals honoring Eru. Hobbits celebrated mid-summer and mid-winter. The elven-king in the Hobbit held numerous feasts in the forest. But we don't really know much about elven festivals. “One year” would be a short time to elves, so maybe annual celebrations were not as important to them.
Aragorn was the last descendant of the royal line of Numenor (until his son). All the Rangers (Dunedain) – and there were still a number of them – were of Numenorean descent.
The Noldor who returned to the Blessed Lands settled in Tol Eressea, which seems like an uncomfortable situation for both the Noldor and the Teleri.
Did Aman have seasons? It was a large continent, so the climate probably varied across the continent. The Elves had a harvest festival, which suggests seasonal crops. After the creation of the Sun and Moon, those did shine in Aman.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we didn't have a topic picked, so I guess we just see who shows up and what people want to talk about. We have a couple of new people
Shawn Daysleeper: . . oh? nice
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I mean Harumi, Kellanar -- people who haven't been around a long time
Kellinar Trevellion: . . I think I missed last weeks discussion, so what is tonight's topic?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we don't have a topic!
Kellinar Trevellion gasps
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so I thought we would see what people wanted to talk about -- questions, old discussions you missed. Of course, the old topics never come out twice the same
Kellinar Trevellion: . Hmmm....what about significant holidays? Or celebrations, etc.?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oooh, there's an interesting question
Kellinar Trevellion: . Thanks
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I wonder whether we know anything
Kellinar Trevellion: . There were ancient druidic and celtic - gaelic things that may have influenced Tolkien.
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that would make sense. And such keen observers of the stars would mark the astronomical dates
Kellinar Trevellion: . Usually there were either rituals or obligatory recognition of the Valar and Maiars
Kellinar Trevellion: . yes....the moon, sun, seasons
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . harvest. I think I remember mention of some Numenorean festivals, honoring Eru
Kellinar Trevellion: . Were there not prayers to invoke the blessings of certain Maiar for help?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . there were certainly Maiar who were considered patrons, so you would expect some prayers of some sort
Kellinar Trevellion: . Was Aragorn the last Numenorian or am I mistaken?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . he was the last of Isildur's line
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the last of the royal line
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it's hard to believe he was the last with any Numenorean ancestry
Kellinar Trevellion: . He will have a son. The line continues.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true. And we know there were other Rangers, who would have been Numenorean ancestery
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya there were others of the Dunadain, rangers of the north decended from the faithful of numenor
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, that's right. I think I remember one other but I do not recall his name.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . they showed up at Helm's deep int he book
Kellinar Trevellion: . Woww....imagine rping with that lineage.
Kellinar Trevellion: . More than one Shawn?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I had the impression there were a bunch of Rangers, who just didn't enter the plot much
Shawn Daysleeper: . . their leader was Halbarad
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Elrond's two sons came ... and didn't they bring some rangers?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . the ones that came before the battle
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . when they brought the banner Arwen had been making?
Kellinar Trevellion: . to Helm's Deep? Or to the coronation?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Aragorn and the others headed back to Helm's Deep, and they were overtaken by a company of Dunedain led by Halbarad and accompanied by Elrond's sons Elladan and Elrohir. They brought Aragorn's horse Roheryn and delivered a banner made by Arwen. Elrohir gave Aragorn a message from Elrond: "The days are short. If thou art in haste, remember the Paths of the Dead." (RotK, p. 48)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . right, before the Paths of the Dead, after visiting the ruins of Isengard
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya
Kellinar Trevellion: . Ohhh....I now remember, ok
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, an unknown number of mostly-unnamed Dunedain
Kellinar Trevellion: . So, no holidays, festivals, rituals, etc are not really mentioned in Tolkien's works?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . it seems so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . some hobbit holidays mentioned
Shawn Daysleeper: . . well, in the Hobbit, the Elvenking had lots of festivals
Kellinar Trevellion: . The Dunedain are not the same as Numenorians, correct?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes,they are the same
Shawn Daysleeper: . . there are fallen numenorians and faithful numenorians
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or, the Dunedain are the descendants of the faithful of Numenor who came back to middle-earth -- yeah
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, I believe one of the Kings of the Numenorians wanted immortality.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . fallen numenorians went south to Umbar, and the Faithful founded Gondor and Arnor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, and Sauron was whispering in his ear the whole time
Kellinar Trevellion: . Ah, yes. Unfortunately....the dang snake
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Anarion's ship held most of the faithful, and it wrecked off the north coast of middle earth, but they apparently survived to found Arnor. The rangers are decended from Anarion
Kellinar Trevellion: . Wasn't Anor later on overtaken?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . yup
Kellinar Trevellion: . ok....it is coming back to me
Shawn Daysleeper: . . the head of the Nazgul destroyed Rhudaur and Cardolan, and eventually defeated Arthedain at fornost
Kellinar Trevellion: . it is curious we do not celebrate any known festivities except Tolkien's birthday
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "after the days of Tar-Ancalimon the offering of the first fruits to Eru was neglected,and men went seldom any more to the Hallow upon the heights of Meneltarma" That was Numenor. Hobbits celebrated mid-summer and mid-winter
Kellinar Trevellion: . Was not Numenor an island?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, built for the humans who had helped in the wars against Morgoth
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, hobbits find excuses for celebrations at any time if possible.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, you would expect hobbits to have more than two annual holidays
Kellinar Trevellion: . Birthdays for sure, planting, harvesting.....etc.
Kellinar Trevellion: . I was more interested in elven celebrations as i don't recall any.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . right. I don't know where I saw the mention of the Numenorean religious festivals, beyond that one I just quoted, where it was being neglected. Of course, to an elf, a year would be a short time
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, I think I do remember that as a lot of Numenorians sort of ignored the Valar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ignored, and then got jealous of
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, true
Kellinar Trevellion: . What was discussed in the last meeting?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . how the first elves viewed the Valar. We were leaning toward "parental", in both good and bad senses
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, that would be the general feeling I got.
{Lihan crashes and relogs.}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was saying something ...
Kellinar Trevellion: . Bad?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, the elves of middle earth later drifting more distant from the Valar
Kellinar Trevellion: . Hmmm true
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we hear some songs to Elbereth, but she's a very distant legendary figure. And those songs never sounded to me like anyone seriously expected Elbereth to DO anything about anything
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . And who is Elbereth?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Varda
Kellinar Trevellion: . Oh, Is that her elven name?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I think "Elbereth" is Sindarin for "Star Queen"
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya I think so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, a middle-earth elven name, not what the Vanyar would call her
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Varda is Quenya name
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we never hear anything in the Third Age about any of the other Valar
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, they all seem so far removed to be legendary to some in Middle Earth, except the Eldar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and the Eldar in Middle Earth are Noldor, who would have rather mixed feelings about the Valar
Kellinar Trevellion: . Now, some Noldor stayed in Tirion?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh yes
Kellinar Trevellion: . I take it was those that did not agree with pursuit of the Silmarils?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Finarfin and his people stayed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . right
Kellinar Trevellion: . ok
Shawn Daysleeper: . . I think some of Fingolfin's tribe also, not sure. But there were quite a few that stayed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not everyone was under Feanor's influence
Kellinar Trevellion: . That's what I thought.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . right
Kellinar Trevellion: . Hmmm.....he was the one that made the Silmarils?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but the story follows the Noldor who went to MIddle earth, so we don't hear about the rest of them who stayed home
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, he was, so he was REALLY upset when they were stolen
Kellinar Trevellion: . So, he put his own essence into three jewels?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . at least he felt they were his life's achievement, and he would never do anything comparable again
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he had already refused to let the Valar have them to save the Two Trees
Kellinar Trevellion: . The Silmarils are quite powerful, so it stands that the light within the Eldar is quite powerful.
Kellinar Trevellion: . What can the Silmaril's do?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . nothing I don't think. They hold the last light of the two trees, more of a symbolic thing than anything else
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . very pretty
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya hehe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yavanna thought that with their light, she could revive the Trees
Kellinar Trevellion: . Was it a transfer of some of the life essence of the two trees or it is from Feanor's life essence put into the Silmarils?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya, but Feanor would not let her use the light
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . what Yavanna wanted was the light from the trees
Kellinar Trevellion: . Religious connotation here that it is corruptive (to man) to make an idol.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I suppose what Feanor was worried about was what he had put into it. What was it Aragorn said about Pippin dropping his elven leaf pin? something about being able to let go of a treasure?
Kellinar Trevellion: . He probably understood that their lives were at stake and the pin was the perfect breadcrumb.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes
Kellinar Trevellion: . And one of the painful moments of him maturing as well.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and Aragorn was saying it was a good thing that Pippin was not so attached to his treasure, that he could sacrifice it. Unlike Feanor, who couldn't give up his Silmarills
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes, well...hobbits have a thing for food over "things" in that order. lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya hehe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . riiight, no one was asking Pippin to give up lunch
Kellinar Trevellion: . True and the elves seem to enjoy jewels and stuff.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't find that so surprising ... I like shiny things too
Kellinar Trevellion: . How did they get those things in the Undying Lands since I don't recall dwarf miners there?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the elves did some mining, and Feanor was manufacturing jewels
Kellinar Trevellion: . Oh true....forgot about that.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . probably, given the choice, elves would prefer to buy their jewels, like the dwarves would prefer to buy their food
{Shawn leaves. Farewells.}
Kellinar Trevellion: . I remember that the dwarves of Moria did trade mithril and such with the elves.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true, and dwarves weren't really into farming
Kellinar Trevellion: . Not unless they ate nothing but blind fish and mushrooms....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . :P that sounds like drow
Kellinar Trevellion: . In the end of the Third Age, the elves left Gray Haven. Where did they dock?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Tol Eressea, I think, or Alqualonde
Kellinar Trevellion: . What about Tirion? Was it not by the sea?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it says the returning Noldor mostly settled in Tol Eressea, which seems strange to me
Kellinar Trevellion: . Yes....perhaps they did not feel worthy to actually live in Tirion due to the kinslaying.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and that is a reason to settle in Teleri territory?! I'm surprised Olwe let them. I would think that would be more uncomfortable than living in Tirion
Kellinar Trevellion: . Oh true...I forgot Alqualonde is the same as Tol Eressea?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not the same, but both cities were Teleri. Tol Eressea was on an island, Alqualonde on the shore of the mainland. Tirion was near the Pass of Calacirya, I don't remember how close to the shore. It might have had a port, I don't remember
Kellinar Trevellion: . Ah ok, unless the Teleri vacated Tol Eressea for Alqualonde for the returning Noldor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, and even to do that sounds rather generous, or, there was some motive we don't know about
Kellinar Trevellion: . I believe Tirion was a seaport city for the tower to be seen by the boats coming from the east.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . could be
Kellinar Trevellion: . that why I thought that some of the returning elves docked at tirion, For rp purposes.....there should be ships still docked there.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was just looking it up. It says it was near the sea, so it could well be a port
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . If you want to give Sheri rp advice ... I'm going to watch from a safe distance
Kellinar Trevellion: . I don't plan to actually rp in Tirion. I did not think they are part of the Fellowship.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . they aren't
Kellinar Trevellion: . Greetings Lady Tuatha
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hello, Tuatha. What do you know about elven holidays? We didn't find much
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . greetings. Sorry for being late
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . everyone is busy tonight
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . i know nothing about elven holidays...i hope there's one coming soon. a winter holiday, perhaps?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . makes sense
Kellinar Trevellion: . Are you familiar with Aman's geography Lihan? Did Aman have seasons?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I think so. I imagine pleasant, mild seasons
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . unless the gods have other designs, or even mages
Kellinar Trevellion: . How far is it from Taniquetal to Tirion?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yavanna had her fields of crops
Kellinar Trevellion: . How did it all grow without sunlight?
Tuatha Shippe cant imagine no sunlight
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hmmm, must have been Tree light?
Kellinar Trevellion: . lol...ok
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . ah...that would work
Kellinar Trevellion: . But then the trees were destroyed
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . not on Tol Eressea. the off spring survived. thats a sad sad thought
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but the original Two Trees were destroyed
Tuatha Shippe looks up at the most beautiful being in the world
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so the Valar had to make the Sun and Moon
Kellinar Trevellion: . Since elves had to eat, then the planting and harvesting was normal akin to the mortal lands.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I think I remember they had a harvest festival. That would imply seasonal crops
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . the elementals must have had holidays..such as the Ice Elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that would make sense
Kellinar Trevellion: . yes....I'm thinking that Aman looked sort of like an Alaskan winter.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . although "one year" would be a short time to them
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . Aman was huge, from N to S
Kellinar Trevellion: . Indeed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . a continent
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . yes..so it would depend on their locale
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I would expect Mt Taniquetil to be pretty chilly. How high an altitude can elves survive?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . Tol Eressea was South Midland, and Aqualonde was not far away
Kellinar Trevellion: . Did sunlight as seen in Middle Earth was seen at all in any part of Aman?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . after the sun was made, yes. Before, it was dark in Middle Earth
Kellinar Trevellion: . yes, but thought aman remained in twilight even after the sun was made.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hmmm. I wonder why
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Melkor? Melkor kept the sun from shining in Aman?
Kellinar Trevellion: . Perhaps it was in deference to the Eldar?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . who else ultimately had the influence or power
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . how do we know Aman was in twilight? Do we know?
Kellinar Trevellion: . I don't know for sure. I just got the impression it was always in twilight.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hmmm
Kellinar Trevellion: . Perhaps when the seeds of the great trees became the sun and moon...was there any reference that light shone upon Aman?
Tuatha Shippe: . . . . . i dont see constant twilight...but im no expert on Tolkien
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, I'm looking at that chapter -- yes, the sun and moon did shine in Aman
Kellinar Trevellion: . Oh cool :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . at first, one rose when the other set, but it drove everyone crazy having constant light
Kellinar Trevellion: . yes. Olwe made a reference of seeing sunlight again when Alqualonde was moved recently to the mortal lands.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hmmm, he did, but that might not have been accurate
Kellinar Trevellion: . indeed, So, that explains seasons and growing things....having sunlight in Aman after all.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, as much as we understand "seasons" on a flat earth
Kellinar Trevellion: . Who knows more about the geography of Aman?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I know maps exist, somewhere
