The Vanyar

Present:

Shawn Daysleeper

Fifi Wickentower

Lihan Taifun

Sheridanne Kelley (briefly)

Reine Soderstrom

AelKennyr Rhiano

Cromm Slade (briefly)

Summary:

The Vanyar took part in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age. Where did the Vanyar get weapons? How did they learn to fight? These would not be common skills in the Blessed Lands.

Is living in paradise boring for the Vanyar? Did they ever have a chance to “grow up”?

Would the Vanyar gradually become less “elvish” and more “ainurish”, living so close to the Ainur, and relatively isolated from other elves? What exactly would it mean to become more ainurish? Or might the Vanyar begin to waste away, either individually or as a race?

Did the Ainur need the Vanyar help in the War of Wrath? Or was it a case that the naively idealistic Vanyar needed the opportunity to be involved?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . we didn't have a topic set for tonight. Did anyone have anything still on their minds?

Sheridanne Kelley smiles at Olwe

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . These discussions are OOC. We were just trying to pick a topic, or starting point, or whatever

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Did you get to discuss holidays last week?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . we tried, but we didn't know of any. It would be interesting to know about them

AelKennyr Rhiano: . oh ok Well, um....I guess tonight is a grab bag :)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . unless our guests know anything about holidays of the Elves? Whoa, Sheri keeps crashing

Reine Soderstrom: . hmm yes.. it's been a while since I experienced such lag. Could be me though

Fifi Wickentower: . . the hobbits celebrated Yule but i don't find reference to the Elves . . they marked the passing of the seasons

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . hobbits celebrated Yule and midsummer

AelKennyr Rhiano: . You would think the elves would as well

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . you would think. And a mention of a harvest celebration in Valimar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I cannot remember if we every discussed the Vanyar. Kell reprising the role of Ingwe has me very curious as to how they might have developed over the ages since the Silmarillion.

Shawn Daysleeper nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . no, we haven't discussed the Vanyar. They are mentioned so little in the Silmarillion

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I know, and it is a shame.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . and only at the very beginning

Shawn Daysleeper: . at the end of the 1st age, they took part in the War of Wrath against Melkor along with Ainur

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . the Vanyar, oh right

Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Vanyar

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . and I think that is the last we hear of them?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . since the story is exclusively in Middle Earth from then on

Shawn Daysleeper: . ya I think that battle is the only time they returned to middle earth and it was for a very short time

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . I'm surprised they even had weapons. Why would the Vanyar own weapons?

Shawn Daysleeper: . good question. Did they have weapons?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I wondered that myself.

Shawn Daysleeper: . if they were in a battle, and a big one like that, they needed to fight with something

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . you would think so, but they would have to know how to use them, too

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Perhaps the Valar armed them.

Shawn Daysleeper: . I think all the coasts were captured by then so they could not use resources in middle earth

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . if you handed me a spear -- in RL -- I'd probably just hurt myself

Reine Soderstrom: . awww „ã°

Fifi Wickentower: . . XD !LOL! ‚òÖ

Reine Soderstrom: . well just reading wiki: "When the Vanyar took up arms in the War of Wrath", so it must be. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ingwe

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . ah ha. Heh heh, if that article is mentioning Imin the first elf, there are more references than the Silmarillion

AelKennyr Rhiano: . yes, I read that article. We talking about it one night here.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . about the stories of the first elves?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . oh yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . we were

AelKennyr Rhiano: . about the awakening of the first elves, too, and the alternate accounts of that

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . I was just notice that the "references" at the bottom of the article only lists Silmarillion, while Imin comes from a non-Silmarillion source

Shawn Daysleeper: . so who would train them to use weapons?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . who was left in Tirion? was that Fingolfin? I always forget that part ...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . hello

Cromm Slade: greetings

Reine Soderstrom: . Greetings Cromm

Fifi Wickentower: . . offers the horsey a carrot

AelKennyr Rhiano: . hi :)

Cromm Slade: im not a horse m,lady

Shawn Daysleeper: . hello :)

Lihan Taifun whispers "FIFI! He's a unicorn!"

Shawn Daysleeper: . hehe

Fifi Wickentower: . . rubs her eyes

Reine Soderstrom: . Or perhaps a shapeshifter „ã° I know all about that :)

Fifi Wickentower: . . oh my!!!! i do greatly beg your pardon!!!! must get glasses

Cromm Slade: indeed i am

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . heh heh, well, yes, he is a shape shifter

Reine Soderstrom: . There you go „ã°

Cromm Slade: sorry to interrupt. just wanting to say hello to all

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . :)

Fifi Wickentower: . . hi cromm :)

Shawn Daysleeper smiles

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . you're always welcome. This is the Tolkien Discussion Group

AelKennyr Rhiano: . oh, you can join us :)

Cromm Slade: please give me a moment ill be back in a jiffy.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . ok :)

Lihan Taifun smiles

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . busy night

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Reine, I notice you wearing your titler, are you rping somewhere now?

Reine Soderstrom: . I don't. I did miss my old friends, and decided to return. Reine Soderstrom smiles

AelKennyr Rhiano: . how wonderful

Reine Soderstrom: . I have much going on in SL

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Good to have you here tonight :)

Reine Soderstrom: . it's great seeing you all once more

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . I'm afraid it isn't a very lively discussion tonight

AelKennyr Rhiano: . You should come more often.

Reine Soderstrom: . Doesn't matter. My original intent was having the chance to see some of my old friends again. Just enjoying your presence

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Well, I have always wanted to know more about the Vanyar....they live so hand-in-pocket with the Valar.

AelKennyr Rhiano smiles at Reine

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . They do. It sounds a bit boring

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Living in paradise, you mean?

Fifi Wickentower prefers it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . I suppose they are living in paradise

Reine Soderstrom: . one cannot know joy without misery

Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, very true

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Right, and since they have come into the Undying Lands, nothing to disturb that paradise has come to their doorstep.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . I wonder whether they really got a chance to grow up? with everything perfect all along

AelKennyr Rhiano: . It does leave the opportunity to face adversity and grow limited.

Reine Soderstrom: . hmm yes indeed that extends my statement, good question

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Can you imagine Ingwe in the 4th Age mortal world, for example? Talk about culture shock, for one thing.

Shawn Daysleeper: . good point. He wold be pretty naive about the world

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Reine Soderstrom: . and vulnerable for deception, perhaps

Shawn Daysleeper: . he would not know evil perhaps, in a pleasant form

AelKennyr Rhiano: . oh yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . which is related to being hard to imagine them going out to the War of Wrath

AelKennyr Rhiano: . yes, it does

Reine Soderstrom: . maybe it's that shock that has driven him, trying to get rid of that uglyness

AelKennyr Rhiano: . And I have to wonder if they adopt more of the customs and mannerisms of the Ainur and perhaps become less elf-like over time

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . has driven him to do what?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . into the War?

Reine Soderstrom: . the culture shock Ael was talking about

AelKennyr Rhiano: . The sheer fact the world had changed so much...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . they hardly knew the outside world, when they left, at the beginning of time

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Reine Soderstrom: . for myself I can try to see it as the will towards joy and harmony .. a good soul being confronted with pain, misery and suffering just may want to put his ideals aside in order to restore what once was

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I can see that.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . would he know HOW to accomplish that?

Reine Soderstrom: . That is a very good question

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . it would be frustrating, wanting that, and not having the practical experience to accompish it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . what would happen to elves who were adopting the culture of the Ainur?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . That would be interesting....They would grow apart from the other elvens, of course. And they would have a different philosophy and viewpoint of the world

Reine Soderstrom: . very true

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . and yet they could never be ainur in their nature

Reine Soderstrom: . indeed. Moriquendi (Dark Elves)

AelKennyr Rhiano: . but that is a question I have...couldn't they...one day, through enough passage of time? All beings, all species evolve or die.

Reine Soderstrom: . "The Moriquendi (singular Moriquendë) are the Elves of Darkness, are, in essence, the Elves that did not join the Great Journey over the sea and behold the light of the Two Trees in Valinor." http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Elves this is all that I can find about them

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . and what about the Moriquendi? how do they fit in?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . I'm still missing the connection, how Moriquendi got into the conversation

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I think I did, too? AelKennyr Rhiano smiles sheepishly.

Reine Soderstrom: . Ael talking about elves growing apart made me think of this. Just throwing it in

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . ah, another example of elves who were culturally separated

Reine Soderstrom: . indeed

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . while the Vanyar might have been growing more ainur-ish

AelKennyr Rhiano: . oh, yes, I see now...two extremes

Reine Soderstrom: . Which proves it's a strange idea of Ingwë going to war, interesting

AelKennyr Rhiano: . but not far fetched if he never developed emotionally because he lived in a place that never challenged him to "grow up."

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . besides, with the Ainur going to war, did they really need an elven army?

Reine Soderstrom: . Good point Lihan. The ones who created Arda... needing help. It does sound strange huh

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . so the Vanyar were idealistic teenagers who wanted to help, but not necessarily capable of being much help?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . perhaps the elves needed to be the army and the Ainur knew that. Or Tolkien kinda slipped upon that point. heh heh

Shawn Daysleeper: . ya

Reine Soderstrom: . Many stories have contradictions.. it could be possible yes. Maybe the uprising itself was a visual shock effect that was needed perhaps

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . Tolkien had personal experience at war; maybe he picked up the the Vanyar wanting to do their part

Reine Soderstrom: . "The Elves are going to war! Can you believe that?" the seriousness

AelKennyr Rhiano: . yes or that they needed that experience: else how would they develop?

Reine Soderstrom: . Good point Ael

AelKennyr Rhiano: . :)

Shawn Daysleeper: . hopefully they have not forgotten that experience over the course of the ages. They may need it in the 4th age

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . It would be some of the same elves. There would be a lot of new Vanyar in the mean time

Reine Soderstrom: . Being teached by the elder.. just in case

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . true

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Do you think they would keep those skills sharp over the passage of time?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . humans don't

Reine Soderstrom: . yes I may think so.. since it's not a war-culture

Shawn Daysleeper: . if you don't use knowledge it tends to fade

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . right

Reine Soderstrom: . I don't see them do their dayly combat training, right after some morning lembas

AelKennyr Rhiano: . and they never had a bloodletting on their own soil, as Alqualonde, as the Teleri knew

Shawn Daysleeper: . it's like math, you have to practice every so often to retain the skills

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . so, could the Vanyar evolve?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . That is a most excellent question.

Reine Soderstrom: . indeed, if you already are near perfection, or are absolutely perfect

Fifi Wickentower: . . would they evolve or die out?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . or are the ainur so different that the gap cannot be bridged?

Reine Soderstrom: . then there is only one way to evolve: backwards

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . or waste away

Fifi Wickentower: . . yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . would they lose the will to live? either individually or as a race?

Reine Soderstrom: . hmm good question. Depends on how hopeful the situation is maybe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . If they do not evolve, thought, they would devolve, and surely the Ainur would not allow that?

Reine Soderstrom: . going to war does answer that, fighting for existance

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . faced with that much perfection, would anything motivate them? Could the ainur prevent it? The ainur seem to be fairly bad a preventing elves or humans from doing anything

Reine Soderstrom: . indeed

AelKennyr Rhiano: . However these elves do live among them....

Shawn Daysleeper: . the elves are tied to the earth, so if the earth changes, wouldn't the elves?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . hmmm, interesting point

Shawn Daysleeper: . environmental change, climate change, consumption of resources, pollution

Reine Soderstrom: . interesting indeed. But then again I see elves returning to the undying lands.. giving me the impression "I don't want to have anything to do with this anymore"

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . are the undying lands unchanged forever?

Shawn Daysleeper: . good question

Reine Soderstrom: . indeed. It's like we could say.. "does heaven change?" heavy question „ã° but a good one

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . but aman is tied to the created world, part of the created world

Shawn Daysleeper: . I would think it would change. Maybe not through the mechanisms I said before, for example, climate and environment may change, but through different mechanisms than those in arda maybe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Well, in the 4th Age we have allowed Aman to change...the presence of the flowers do that

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . although Reine hasn't necessarily been following 4th Age plotlines

AelKennyr Rhiano: . oh....sorry

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . even artificially maintaining a climate -- which the ainur probably do in Aman -- isn't so easy

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . are we ready to pick a topic for next week?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . yes

Shawn Daysleeper: . ok

Fifi Wickentower: . . mhm

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Does anyone have any ideas?

Shawn Daysleeper: . thinking

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I am afraid I am a blank for discussion ideas.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . that has been a problem lately, no good topic ideas. What's the next Silmarillion chapter?

Fifi Wickentower: . . my brain is too pooped to think

AelKennyr Rhiano: . Did we do Chapted 13? the Return of the Noldor?

Shawn Daysleeper: . no. We stopped at 12

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I think that is next.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . last time we weren't feeling so excited about Noldor

Shawn Daysleeper: . right

AelKennyr Rhiano: . We could skip around.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . there is the War of Wrath

AelKennyr Rhiano: . ok, I am up for that. if you all are.

Fifi Wickentower: . . would tie in with tonight

Shawn Daysleeper: . chapter 24

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . chapter 24 -- the War of Wrath and Earendil

Fifi Wickentower: . . sure

Shawn Daysleeper: . that's fine with me

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . next week is the 22^nd. Are people going to be around?

Fifi Wickentower: . . omg . . .really?

Shawn Daysleeper: . yes I will be

AelKennyr Rhiano: . I should be.

Fifi Wickentower: . . i guess i am

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . ok