Tolkien Discussion Group
November 10, 2010
Wraiths, Orcs, and Monsters, part 3
Present:
Dominique Darkwatch
Shawn Daysleeper:
Lihan Taifun
Kellinar Trevellion
AelKennyr Rhiano
Summary
Although Balrogs are Maiar (of a fire persuasion, which makes them akin to Arien) they seem to be remarkably dimwitted. Not in the intellectual category of, say, a dragon. We find no evidence of a Balrog ever speaking.
We know of no examples of any non-Ainu fighting a Balrog and surviving. Even Ungoliant ran away. Gandalf was killed by the Balrog of Moria (and returned by special act of Eru).
Shawn found convincing evidence of Balrog wings, and Balrogs flying. The cavern of Moria was too cramped for the Balrog to fly there.
Since it is generally accepted that Morgoth could not create new beings from scratch, only corrupt and modify creatures – what was the raw material for dragons?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ok, balrogs :) Balrogs are impossible it intimidate. Lihan Taifun tries to get the conversation on topic. I think it was Kell who pointed out last week that balrogs are fire maiar
Dominique Darkwatch nods "A relative of Arien"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . minor spirits as ainur go, but still not someone you want to run into -- oooh, that does make them related to Arien! I never thought of that
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . They seem more beast without much intelligence. Are there any other fire maiar besides Arien and the Balrogs?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, there must be, but I don't remember any being mentioned
Dominique Darkwatch: . None mentioned by name
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Is it possible that the fire maiars were "infected" since Melkor made heavy use of lava or it's energy source?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . is it just that balrogs don't have any scenes that show off their intelligence? or are they really that dim? It is possible that most of them went over to Melkor. Or that the "good" fire maiar didn't have a role in the story
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . They remind me of the Minotaur.
Dominique Darkwatch: . I wondered if their intelligence was not somehow compromised by Melkor somehow
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . like the Minotaur how?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Humanoid and with enough intelligence to fight with weapon. There has to be good maiar...we get heat and light from fire sources.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . whereas dragons are known for their cunning. Maiar who aren't related to the story, we just don't hear about
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I see. Balrogs are like the underground sentries for Melkor?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . do they specialize in underground?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So far I only hear of one in the Mines of Moria....where else are they mentioned?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . back in Melkor's original fortress
Shawn Daysleeper: . . there was gothmog, lord of the balrogs in the silmarillion
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I remember a few balrogs, and other baddies who hid out in the basement after Melkor's defeat, and didn't get rounded up
Dominique Darkwatch: . In LOTR, the dwarves apparently dug them up...but in Samarillion in the second age they came out of Angband and really gave it to the elven forces
Shawn Daysleeper: . . they fought a big battle on the surface by Gondolin
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh, ok. What happened to Gothmog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so they aren't intrinsically limited to underground. Was Gothmog the one who got killed by -- somebody famous -- at Gondolin?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Ecthelion killed Gothmog after the fall of Gondolin, but Ecthelion died in the process
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I'm not surprised! I'm more surprised that one elf could kill a balrog at all
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Gothmog killed Fingon, Tuor, and mortally wounded Feanor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Feanor killed by a balrog -- somehow that fits
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Is he the one that made the Simarils?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, and provoked the Noldor into leaving the Undying Lands
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Did Gandalf die when he killed the balrog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, it is buried in the Appendices, but he really was dead
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Soooo ... See a balrog....run the other way?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Actually....It seems that Gandalf did die...and was brought back!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . sent back by special order of Eru, it is implied
Kellinar Trevellion nods
Dominique Darkwatch: . And got a bit of a promotion in the process
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But death for Gandalf...that was more like casting off well worn garments, wasn't it?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Still....no one survives killing a Balrog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . heh heh, no one I've heard of
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I thought so.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I'm more surprised they can be killed at all
Dominique Darkwatch: . they were not indestructible, obviously
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So in rp, the Balrog are the Tolkien equivalent of the Borg from Star Trek
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yah...they have a soft center at least.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but you still don't want to mess with them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if you can help it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Also there is the question of whether they have wings
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . also that :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always thought if was very tricky to introduce them into a rp if you did not have Ainur who could take them on.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Well, as an analogy of a forest fire....fire and jump tree to tree or born thru ashes spread.
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, it stands to reason that a fire maia might be able to fly, since Arien obviously does
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Does it? If you recall, she was singled out as being very special, and the balrogs were "corrupted " by Melkor.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So, are fire breathing dragons related?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . interesting question. The origins of dragons are quite vague
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I thought Melkor made the first one?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . beyond that Melkor was in some way responsible. Yes, but how did he make it?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Usually corrupts some sort of existing lifeform.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . there is the idea that Melkor can't simple create new life from nothing
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . There is no point anywhere in Tolkien's work where he describes a Balrog as flying. Even in situations where it would be a huge advantage to take to the air, the Balrogs remain earthbound
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so what would you corrupt to make a dragon?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes, Ael....I wondered about that.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ohhh, interesting
Shawn Daysleeper: . . they have wings, i found a reference in LOTR
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Unusable wings?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Take when Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane. This Balrog faces two obstacles, a fiery fissure, and then a chasm crossed by a narrow bridge. These should present no problem to a winged creature.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That is one idea.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh yeah...true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Perhaps when they were twisted by Melkor, they lost the power of flight but not the wings.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So, the corrupted fire maiar lost the ability to fly.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . The Balrog made no ansawer.... and it's wings were spread from wall to wall, but Gandalf could still be seen...
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . What about Rocs? Noble eagles?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That would then lead to interesting question of why dragons could fly if the balrogs could not
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . give us the complete quote, Shawn
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, sorry, Shawn
Shawn Daysleeper: . . The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the brodge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but Gandalf could still be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Balrogs incapable of speech as well?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . wings, but no mention of ability to fly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . there is aanother ref to wings in the same chapter
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and to "a shadow like wings", I think. Don't have it in front of me
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes but really it had no room to fly in Moria.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . it's wings were too big for the space?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . no room to fly, if its wings stretch from wall to wall. It's a narrow place, where the bridge of khazhad dum was
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So we know that balrog had wings, but forever will not know if it could fly where it in an open space large enough to do so.
Dominique Darkwatch: . true
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . What about the battle at Gondolin? Any mention of Balrogs flying there?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . checking...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . as someone just said, you would think it would have been an advantage
Dominique Darkwatch: . Not necessarily... If there is a great host of archers, being in the air above makes an unobstructed target
Shawn Daysleeper: . . balrogs fought Ungoliant in the wastelands of Lammoth...
Dominique Darkwatch: . Being on the ground makes you only a target for the front ranks
Shawn Daysleeper: . . they issued from Angbad...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Could archers really destroy a balrog?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . wow, Ungoliant was holding up against several balrogs at once?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . A very powerful fallen maiar?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Ungoliant, yes, it was a massive battle
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Are maiars specific to a certain nature?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ??
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maiar are a very broad and diverse group, all the Ainur who aren't the Valar
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Well, we have fire maiars, probably water maiars and the other elements. What was Ungoliant?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Like all ainur individuals may favor one element over another
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, "Maia" covers everything from beings only a little less powerful than Valar, down to fae and elementals
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Fae are maia?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so fae are miaia?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ok, they can fly, here is the quote... Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord, and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh ugh
Shawn Daysleeper: . . sooooo they fly
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . bleah
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ohhh, that sounds convincing
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . it does
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Sure does - makes them almost invincible.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but still a little vague
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh....what were the creatures that the ring wraiths flew on? Were those dragons?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . we can "arise" so to speak without flying. as in "get up"
Lihan Taifun whacks Ael
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . the tempest of fire, though...that is .....OW!
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . True or maybe they simply can float/fly closer to the ground swiftly?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Forest fire gone wrong.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . Then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains. Therefore that region was called Lammoth; for the echoes of his voice dwelt there ever after, so that any who cried aloud in that land awoke them, and all the waste between the hills and the sea was filled with a clamour as of voices in anguish. The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder. Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the rained halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. There the full paragraph
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . wow. At least Ungoliant wasn't fighting the balrogs, she was running away from them
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Ok...that settles it....they fly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . ya they fly... whew
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol...great job Shawn!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . go, Shawn!
Dominique Darkwatch: . whips of flame.....wicked!
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Same probably as the whip the Balrog had before Gandalf.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . honestly, that seems to also be the best description of balrogs in the book, everything else is one liners or vague
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I agree
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Maybe it was the only weapon forged that could withstand the flaming heat.
{From here on the discussion is primarily about Fellowship of the Fourth Age roleplay.}
Dominique Darkwatch wants to find a whip of flame for Arien
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think Aorin had one, some balrog I met did ... pretty spiffy whip, too. Maybe it was Sauron Graves, I don't remember any more
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . You may be right about that.
Dominique Darkwatch: . If it was SF compatible, that would be really awesome
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . WE need a Balrog extinguisher.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Arien wants to fight a balrog? That would be exciting
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I could see where she would
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Arien would be no wimp!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That would be quite exciting
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, if they threatened her, she would use it!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a balrog could easily pop out of any patch of Nightmare Tears, you know
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . O.O
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . they are interdimensional portals
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Now that woud be cool
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, ours came out from a volcano, but I think they could also come out of the Nightmare's Tears too
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . They are? wicked
Shawn Daysleeper: . . i wonder if they can be used as gates to tp between patches of nightmre's tears in the world
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, they are supposed to be portal
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I don't think anyone in the Undying Lands knows that yet, but they are
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, no one here does
Dominique Darkwatch: . If a balrog popped out thet would know
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Doubly wicked
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . probaby they can, but wouldn't it damage anyone who tried?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . probably, but it could be the 4th age versio of wormholes
Dominique Darkwatch: . any mortal certainly would be killed
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So.....what about the good guys? We are still back in the middle ages while the dark forces move around so easily?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ????
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if evil creatures lose their ability to shapeshift, do they also lose their ability to teleport? so they need portals?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Where's Radagast? Wasn't he the scientific type?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . i thought Radagast was the bird guy
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . And we have horses, ships....
Dominique Darkwatch: . I expect most Ainur can move with relative ease...they seemed to be able to traverse great distances with no problems
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Oh, I must have the wrong name......I thought he was like Gandalf.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, but that requires dropping the physical body
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Radagast was another wizard like Gandalf, yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . the balrogs move "like a tempest of flame" in physical bodies
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Notice how the Balrog have to travel...they cannot cast off their mortal flesh.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . well balrogs were evil maiar spirits, once a balrog, always a balrog. they couldn't shift into anything else
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yet we know even elves can use these portals but do not have that knowledge.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . wait...no, Kell, we don't know that
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Looks at Olwe.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . there is no reliable witness to how or where Olwe travelled
AelKennyr Rhiano is not Olwe...is OOC. Correct, you do not know elves can use the portal
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . No I don't, but since these patches are cropping up everywhere, well..soon we will be overun by the enemy,
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And even though one was created and Olwe stepped through...that does not mean an elf can "use" the portal
Dominique Darkwatch: . well, in the Sylvan RP, mages can and do use portals, but that is not strickly Tolkien
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And the mages....are they elven?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Daza is. And Sally and a couple of others
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But he had to learn how to do it?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, only full mages can use them
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I'm implying that even an elf could be transported thru these portals including those untainted (officially we don't know that).
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And those portals would be different in nature, I imagine, than the portal the flowers are linked to
Dominique Darkwatch: . Oh yes....going between planes is much different than simply transporting between physical locations
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but again...we don't "know" the elf won't be untainted. For all you know , the portals made Olwe even more insane and unstable
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . all evidence is that being near the flowers is very dangerous
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . That's true, but what about the ones that plant the seeds to create the patch? How did they get there?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . again, the portal was opened by someone else
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . shhhhh, I'm pretty sure that was a plot hole --oh, was there a portal involved?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . actually, no, a drow matron opened the portal for the elf
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ok
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . So, only those in league with the evil forces know how to use portals?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . didn't Dom just say the mages of Sylvhara use them?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ok...but saying that just because a mage can open one sort of portal, he can open all....that is just like saying... if you know the combination to one lock, you know them all
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe it is a bit of stretch to let them open a portal into the Undying Lands, which aren't on quite the same plane as the mortal worlds, but, maybe no worse a stretch than the existance of portals at all
Dominique Darkwatch: . Going through someone else's portal would be risky if you don't know where you are going, I would think
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think the mages use them to transport over great distances...not into different planes
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . This concept of portals is only in the 4th Age?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think it was Sylvara who brought it to the 4th Age. It didn't come from the Tolkien side
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I didn't think so.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. However.... how does one get from the Undying land to Earth?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . one sails the Straight Road
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Simply by sailing there until the Pelori range went up.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, right, is that so much different?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and what is the straight road but a portal of sorts?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . since the end of the Second Age, you can't just sail directly, right
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but even that was not without risk, correct?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and the Valar can close that portal. But maybe we didn't know to be watching against these newfangled style of portals
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . they would be very hard to prevent entirely
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or that the elves would evolve to the point to learn to create them
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . hmmmm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . it would get messy if we get to a point of power vs power
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . very
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . messy for rp
Dominique Darkwatch nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the Valar should be able to close any portal into the Undying Lands. If we know about it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes. And if they close this one, can they prevent another from opening? They were not so successful last time
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . probably not in advance. And would closing the portal get rid of the flowers? probably not. And would it stay closed? Would it stay closed without a vala paying attention 24/7?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . good questions
Dominique Darkwatch: . Nothing has gotten rid of them so far
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . right,nothing has gotten rid of them so far
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . interesting dilemma
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and we don't really want to be in the business of godlike powers
Dominique Darkwatch: . Could they send them to the void or wherever Melkor is locked away?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Eru did a lot of the work in locking Melkor away, so, possibly not
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And perhaps that is where they lead?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes, we need an anecdote as these patches continue to grow in number - like building a railway system.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . perhaps if Melkor cannot break out, he has found a way to draw beings in
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and who wants to go through the portal and test that theory?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Send something viral back to Melkor.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, Remember Olwe had that encounter with the voice. We do not know if that were real or imagined.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . even if imagined, something was prompting that into his mind
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . nod nod nod. And he was near the flowers
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Melkor hardly needs to get out, if he can get his influence out
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . right, but he always like having his "henchmen"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . sure, disposable flunkies to do the work. Although, in the case of Sauron, who disposed of who? There is no record of Sauron being present at that last battle, when Morgoth was defeated
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so, I guess the portals could be a recruitment tool. AelKennyr Rhiano imitates an Army recruiter, "Come on, Son, it is only for a century or two, and the benefits are great....and we have a GI bill so you can finish school when your enlistment is up."
Dominique Darkwatch laughs
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Melkor's retirement plan wouldn't be so good
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . details, details :P
Dominique Darkwatch: . I would not travel though a portal made by a dark lord or his agents
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . exactly, probably bobby trapped
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe the flowers are healthful to demons
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol Too bad we can't reverse engineer the flower patch.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and what would you do with a reverse-engineered patch?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . If it is a portal, then it could provide a way of travel for us or Valar.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but still, I don't see the value.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . it sounds like some people do know how to create portals. Maybe Ingwe should visit Sylvhara
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . O.o Go to the mortal lands?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the world is changing, maybe some travel would do you good. They've convinced *Nienna* to visit the mortal lands
Dominique Darkwatch: . Actually, in sylvhara, they turned an elf into a demon
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . True. Is Nienna and Irmo getting there by conventional physical means? And besides...how would I get to the mortal lands. There are no Teleri sailors or ships available.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . no, I'm pretty sure we are going by non-physical means, and planning to poof back for the Ainur Council
Dominique Darkwatch: . They must be as it seems to be taking a while for them to get there
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . hmph, we haven't left yet
Dominique Darkwatch: . oh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think we will leave when your message arrives. That should be fairly alarming
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes
Dominique Darkwatch: . haha...I thought you were all dressed with your bodily functions and packed and on the road already
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . weeeeeellllll ... we should have been
Dominique Darkwatch: . okay...talking to Fifi now about it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but no one was home in Alqualonde
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no we have several threads converging atm
Dominique Darkwatch: . I need to get the word to the Valar soon then
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, so we can arrive in Alqualonde before it is too late
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, we have two other rps that need to happen in the Shinging Lands
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . in the Vanyar storyline?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . the discovery of the flowers, the rp with Mandos
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Ah yes....that reminds me. Has Josh turned in his app yet?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, not to me
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Sakura's friend Josh?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . He's working on it then and would like to resume his former role. If possible.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . which role?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . More like a made up one - Ingwe's son.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . see, didn't we tell you that once there was an Ingwe, the Vanyar might start showing up?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . lol. Well, as soon as I know, I will integrate him into my story as well. But I don't know his position as yet.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . WE don't have an applicaton yet :P
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . His time here is limited as he works full time during the week, I believe. They have longer work hours than we do in the US.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . then you just need to be creative about how you communicate. It just takes longer, if you are passing notes instead of being on at the same time
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes....very different timezones. In any case, he's very interested so if anything I will have one more Vanya.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . that's great
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes! But please, do not refer to them as "made up" roles....
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Btw, I did build a part of the Ingwe's castle....the Council Hall to use for a backdrop.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Cool!
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . What is the proper or technical term for a character that is not canon nor mentioned in Tolkien's works?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . there are literary roles and nonliterary roles
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Nonliterary....got it.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I have an admitted bias against using the term "canon"
Dominique Darkwatch: . we are all made up by either ourselves or someone else
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, literary roles are no better nor lesser than non literary.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I only follow what others have created or written down. If you prefer literary and nonliterary, then that is what I shall use.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I understad, my friend...:)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . is it because "canon" implies being official?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Canon was always treated or touted to me as better, more desirable. And there were lots of people who wanted me to rp Olwe in strict adherence to Tolkien's works, which would mean he had no personality whatsoever.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, a pretty short list of characters for whom Tolkien wrote personalities
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Truth is....a rp full of "canon" roles is very boring.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I think Olwe had more personality than I did...lol. I have what a paragraph or two?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Not much more
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . sheesh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Olwe has more screen time, but neither has a personality
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . oh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And not much more screen time... but she is right. I mean he had children, but no wife.
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Ah well....room for more creativity.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and he objected to having his swanships stolen ... er "borrowed"
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Hey true, but I don't think Ingwe had any children.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And there is conflicting accounts of how many children he had --stolen....mutters 'thieves"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . didn't someone marry Ingwe's daughter?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Not that I heard of, except the closest relative is Indis
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, it would be reasonable for Ingwe to have a family, that never got mentioned
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . What is our topic for next time?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah, topic for next time. We had one suggestion for "the birth of the first elves"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yay
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Wow....that's going back a time.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I don't know what we are going to find out about it, but it is an interesting question. A good question is more fun than an answer, right?
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . You mean the whole scenario at Cuivienen?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Yes, it is a good question.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "the whole scenerio" is hardly a paragraph, isn't it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . it begs a lot of good questions
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . Interesting though....they didn't really have royalty in the beginning. Yup....may take more meetings on that one.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . right up there with the Seven Dwarf Mothers
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . youch
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . hahahahah
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . (when we were studying dwarves, we noticed Aule made seven dwarf fathers ... and apparently no females)
Kellinar Trevellion: . . . . I KNEW it was a lie! I should have a chat with Aule on that one and see how he explains it.
