When the Firstborn race of the Children of Ilúvatar, the Elves, awoke in the eastern part of Middle Earth, the Ainur encouraged them to relocate to the Blessed Land of Aman, in the Far West. Some, led by the three Elven kings Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë, agreed. Elwë, however, was distracted on the road when he met and fell in love with the Ainu Melian. His brother, Olwë, led part of their tribe onward to Aman. This was the first major split among the Elves:
• the Dark Elves, who remained in Middle Earth. Those who were not enslaved by Melkor remained uncivilized and presumably drow-like. Tolkien says no more about them.
• the High Elves (Eldar), who went to the Blessed Lands, and
• the Grey Elves (Sindar), who remained with Elwë and Melian. Their realm was Doriath, with its capital in the underground city of Menegroth. (These are one branch of the Teleri.)
The High Elves in Aman were:
• the Vanyar, Ingwë's people, who lived mostly in Valimar and the lower parts of Mt. Taniquetil. Ingwë is considered High King of all the Elves. His reign is so peaceful and happy that little more is said about it in the histories.
• the Noldor, Finwë's people. They lived primarily in the city of Tirion, near the coast. The Ainur carved the "Pass of Light", Calacirya, through the Pelóri Mountains, to allow the Light of the Two Trees to reach Tirion.
• the Teleri, Olwë's people. They lived first on the island of Tol Eressëa, and later at the city of Alqualondë on the coast north of Tirion. They were great mariners, and built the famous swan ships. (These are the other branch of the Teleri.)
Present:Then Fëanor and his sons led a large portion of the Noldor back to Middle Earth, trying to recover their stolen Silmarils.
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic):
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano
Siwan Sandalwood
Rhûn Darkmoon
Summary:
Ael reports that people interested in Fourth Age roleplay often ask about elves:
• How are Tolkien elves different than "Regular" elves? ("Regular" versus D&D versus Keebler? )
• How are the elves in the Undying Lands different than elves in middle earth?
Olwë is related to most of the important characters in the story. His daughter Eärwen married Finarfin, one of Fëanor's half-brothers. Galadriel was Eärwen and Finarfin's daughter. Galadriel's daughter married Elrond, son of Elwing and Eärendil. And Elrond's brother, Elros, followed the Human side of his heritage and became the first king of Númenor.
Tolkien did not specifically mention drow, but he left enough room for something like them to exist, among the elves who did not even start the journey to Aman, and who dropped out of the story he was telling. Tolkien calls those elves who did not go to Aman “dark” elves, but he was referring to “not exposed to the Light of Aman” rather than “dark skinned” or “evil”.
"The Origins of Tolkien's Middle-earth for Dummies" by Greg Harvey
Attributes of Tolkien's elves :
• They are immortal, in the sense that they do not die of old age. (They can however be killed by violence, or in rare cases can lose the will to live.)
• They are all, by human standards, uncommonly beautiful (male and female). Those who have been to Aman tend to “glow”, and this apparently is stronger the more time they spent in Aman. Movies notwithstanding, Tolkien elves of Middle Earth are usually dark-haired. Only the Vanyar and the branch of Teleri of the Blessed Lands were light-haired.
• They are tall, slender but still strong, athletic and graceful, have great stamina, are good warriors, and talented with music, languages, and poetry.
• They do not think of themselves as “magical”. Humans interpret elvish technology (such as the palantiri) as “magic”.
Tolkien does not say much about the elves who remain in Aman (the Blessed Lands), after the Noldor leave. Presumably they do not decline in physical or “magical” power the way their counterparts in MiddleEarth do. The "elves of Aman" are the Vanyar, the part of the Noldor who stayed in Aman, and the part of the Teleri who came to Aman.
We discuss the ethics of Fëanor and his sons, and their oath to recover the Silmarils at all cost. Olwë broke his oath of friendship with the Noldor, in refusing them ships.
We know of one brief mention of merfolk: In Unfinished Tales, Part II, Chapter 5, “The Tale of Earendel ”, in an early outline of the story of Earendel, Earendel was to be shipwrecked on “the Fiord of the Mermaid.” This does not tell us whether Tolkien viewed merfolk as Maiar of Ulmo, or as a created race like the Elves. Nor any specific information about Tolkien's vision of merfolk.
We discussed the disadvantages of having all of an authors rough drafts published.
Was Smaug the very last dragon? Or only the last remaining dragon in that region of MiddleEarth? Did the fact that Sauron had no dragons prove that dragons were totally extinct? We maintain it is possible that other dragons remained, who were not involved in Lord of the Rings storyline.
{Siwan's comments removed at her request 6/18/2011}
Lihan Taifun: where were we with elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: I know when people talk to me about the 4th Age they ask two questions about elves... One is how are Tolkien elves different than "Regular" elves... and How are the elves in the Undying Lands different than elves in middle earth?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Lihan Taifun: "Regular" elves nowadays meaning "D&D" elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: probably, Lihan, Since most of the time, they are most familiar with D&D
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano laughs at Siwan's comment.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: so that gets back to an older topic, about the different groups of Tolkien elves. all his elves came from the same original stock, but they split into different cultural groups fairly early
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: It is!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Cliff notes?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: hmm, I have a chart, but I can't even get it onto a prim
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: it probably would
AelKennyr Rhiano: I'm related to everyone...nod, nod, nod
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: Is that a good thing, Ael?
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod Well, not around Christmas time...what a christmas card list...
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: I have!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'Do the shifty-eyed ones get a card too, my Lord,'..grins a little
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano looks over and regards Rhun..."Hmmm....I have to look at my list and check it twice."
Lihan Taifun: that notecard mentions the Noldor in Aman, but later a large group of them went back to Middle Earth, complicating the picture even more ("Later" meaning the beginning of the First Age). Olwe is Galadriel's ... grandfather?
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: he does not mention drow specifically, but he leaves open enough blank spaces for them to exist
Belenos the Bad: As a good writer would. We do not know his intent for later stories
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: He had dark elves
Lihan Taifun: in this case, "dark" means "not exposed to the Light of Aman"
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I.. i believe there was mention of dark elves to the west, from whence I came.'
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: Tolkien seems to have imagined all his elves quite Caucasian
AelKennyr Rhiano: Wonder why?
Lihan Taifun: and (movies not withstanding) mostly dark haired, the Vanyar and Teleri were exceptions
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: ok, so there is one difference ... the "dark" and "grey" elves in D&D mean something different from Tolkien
AelKennyr Rhiano: There is a Middle Earth for Dummies?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: omg.....lol!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: thank you! AelKennyr Rhiano scribbles a note. Siwan, what are grey elves like in D&D?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano makes a note..."Check to see if there is 'Teleri for Dummies.'"
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, ok
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yeah, Blender O.O
AelKennyr Rhiano: but blenders are easy...you push a button...oh...not that blender...blushes
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone) grins, "But Ael, isn't that a power tool, effectively? Are you allowed to work with them?'
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic) grins.......he has a point you know Ael.. :D
AelKennyr Rhiano glares at Rhun..."Actully...no, I'm not... I forgot the top once...what a mess..."
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: focus, children
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, ma'am
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone) blushes, 'Yes, my Lady. My apologies.'
Belenos the Bad: So, back to the elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun: so, we don't know anything about D&D gray elves today
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: Lihan... just what 'abilities' did the elves have? And did they vary from group to group?
Lihan Taifun: Tolkien elves?
Belenos the Bad: Yes, Tolkien elves
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic) grins.. well.. as it IS a TOLKIEN discussion group, I thought we were.. :D
Lihan Taifun: they were immortal, in the sense of not dying of old age (though they could die by violence)
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: they can also will themselves to die
Lihan Taifun: in rare cases, yes
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: they don't think of themselves as "magical", though their technology is beyond what humans can do. elves think of things like the Rings of Power, or the palantir, or the Silmarils, or Galadriel's mirror as "technology"
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: What would humans see in elves as magical?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: they are graceful
Belenos the Bad: What about things like athletic abilities, stamina, gift of the silver tongue sort of thing, even battle abilities?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: did they glow? at any rate they were all beautiful. and yes, all the things Belanos said. and good with music, languages, and poetry
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: and taller than humans; tall and slender build, but stronger than they look
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I think the more time they spend in Aman, the more they glow?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. And the stronger they become, perhaps, through their continued association with the Ainur?
Lihan Taifun: I don't think the groups that stayed in MIddle Earth the whole time have that "glow"
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes, it seems likely the elves from Aman are stronger, and presumably their "magical" abilities did not diminish
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: Yavanna?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: why is it that they lost this knowledge and abilities?
Lihan Taifun: there was only one genius, Feanor, who ever could make the silmarils
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: he kinda went off the deep end when they were stolen
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: he swore to STOP AT NOTHING to get them back. yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: and he meant it
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: and when his sons realized that their oath meant killing their friends and allies , it was too late to turn back
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'A valuable lesson indeed about the repercussions of an oath!'
Lihan Taifun: indeed, a terrible oath
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: I'd still question the right of following an oath under those circumstances... is it right to break the oath, or right to kill friends and allies? ... says an intersting thing I think about Elven ethics
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes, his last surviving sons do have that discussion
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, remember Olwe took another view and did not give him the swanships, despite the oaths of friendship between Noldor and Teleri
Belenos the Bad: So Olwe was virtuous was he, Ael?... *grins*
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: No
Belenos the Bad: or was HE wrong to break HIS oath?....:P
AelKennyr Rhiano: He merely took another view. "right" is often written by the majority or by the victor.
Belenos the Bad: personally I think he took a 'wise' view.. which is not always ruled by 'right' or 'wrong'
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: It depends on each individual circumstance, Siwan
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: There are times when the oath given is not worthy of the oath taker.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: Well, Siwan, look at the end result ... what was the result of Olwe breaking his oath?
Lihan Taifun: "But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And by Ilúvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?”
And his brother says, "If none can release us, then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking."
Belenos the Bad: and THAT lihan is the point .. wiser because it was the less evil choice
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Death. A lot of his people and Noldor died fighting each other for the swanships.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Worse...he lived to watch a great number of his people die
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: His own death would have been a small thing to him, compared to watching so many of his people die because of his choice, methinks
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Oh, I believe it
Belenos the Bad: I find that it is a hard going book to read. I learn more from reading the wiki's.. it gives me concise information about specific people or circumstances.. I cheat.. :D
Lihan Taifun: you probably have not gotten to the passage I was quoting; that is at the very end of the First Age
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: not more about the elves of Aman. the focus of the story follows the Noldor into MIddle Earth
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: their thread of the story is what Tolkien is telling in the Silmarillion
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: here in Alqualonde, we do a lot of speculating about what the elves of Aman were doing all that long unrecorded time
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yes, we do.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: the elves of Aman do have a brief mention when they go with the Ainur army to the War of Wrath that ends the First Age, but, hardly a sentence or two
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: the Vanyar, those of the Noldor who stayed, and the Teleri
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: much later; it is the end of the First Age, the last chapter of "Quenta Silmarillion" section
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: right
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: so I should say the "elves of Aman" are the Vanyar, the part of the Noldor who stayed in Aman, and the part of the Teleri who came to Aman
AelKennyr Rhiano: Well, we discuss a variety of topics...but we do talk about the Teleri now and again.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: no, I didn't mean this discussion focused on the Teleri
Siwan Sandalwood •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: No, not necessarily, Siwan
Lihan Taifun: I meant, Alqualonde as a RP sim, we extrapolate what might have been happening
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes, one of Feanor's half-brothers stayed behind
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: Finarfin
Belenos the Bad: Don't worry, Siwan, it took me forever to pick up the little that I know...... How Lihan retains it all is beyond me, but I'm glad she does......:)
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone) smiles shyly at the Lady Lihan, 'She is exceptional, is she not?'
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I have my Silmarillion right here beside me. I'm looking this up as we go along
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: are people winding down? do people need to go? are you secretly bored?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: I'm not
Belenos the Bad: No.. not at all.. :)
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'I'd never be bored listening to you, my Lady and today I have no other obligations as yet.'... smiles shyly
Lihan Taifun: and Rhun even ended up paying attention in Quenya class yesterday, in spite of himself
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Rhûn Darkmoon blushes crimson
Lihan Taifun: but Siwan was the one asking questions ... so I don't know what we will talk about until she gets back
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'My lady, I confess it difficult to concentrate on anything much in your presence.'.. would blush more if it were possible
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: notice that Olwe was his father-in-law
AelKennyr Rhiano growls..."Stupid son-in-law."
Lihan Taifun: Finarfin was?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano sighs..."Well, I guess she had to marry someone.."
Lihan Taifun: oh, no one is good enough for Earwen ....
AelKennyr Rhiano: of course not!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, at the Dawn of the 4th Age, Galadriel is in Aman
Lihan Taifun: and Elrond's brother chose the Human side of his half-elvish heritage, and became the first king of Numenor
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes; and Olwe really is related to nearly everyone interesting
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: Olwe sounds like a bit of a social climber, don't you think?.. ......*grins*
AelKennyr Rhiano glares at Belenos.
Lihan Taifun: it's not his fault he had interesting descendants
Belenos the Bad (belenosstormchaser.magic) pokes her tongue out back
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Define sea elf, Siwan.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: CAN you be half human and half mermaid?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Are the merfolk elves?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: either very considerate mermaids,or guys who could hold their breath a loooong time
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: But how does Tolken view Mer?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: has anyone found that reference? I haven't seen it myself
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: One could assume that maiar associated with Ulmo could be mer perhaps?
AelKennyr Rhiano: That was what I was wondering.
Lihan Taifun: it would be easy to imagine Maiar of Ulmo taking mer forms
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, since I have imagined him taking a similar form to be less frightening to the Children.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, please
Lihan Taifun: please!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: why was Osse hostile to Earendel?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: thy lived near the Sirion? or where he was shipwrecked?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: the Fiord of the Mermaid is near the Sirion?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes, doesn't really saw whether they were Maiar or elf-like
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: since it is a place-name, that doesn't say much about them
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I would think so. and Tolkien himself, by the end of his life, was realizing that not everything in his books fit with 100% consistancy
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I know I have part 1
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: I may have that book...let me look
Lihan Taifun: no, I remember now I saw in the bookstore it was in two parts, and I only got part 1, because part 1 had all the parts about the Valar (back when Nienna was the evil Queen of Death, with black fire and bats)
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: yes! still better than her!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: and there was Ulbandi, Melkor's wife! or at least the mother of his son ...
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: in the early drafts, half the Ainur were literally children of the Valar
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: he abandond that idea, though
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: how could you have Valar being born? it doesn't really make sense
Belenos the Bad: Yes.. a spirit being giving birth? although the theory goes with some of the greek myths where some of the heros of legend were sired by the gods
Lihan Taifun: and an immortal spirit being born?
AelKennyr Rhiano: back. I have that volume
Lihan Taifun: you have which volume, Ael?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Volume 2 of the Lost Tales
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: he might be appalled to know all his rough drafts were being published
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun: and have all your fans studying every change of word
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think sometimes, it is detrimental to publish the rough drafts and notes for that precise reason.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: After all, a story is the author's to tell.. he choses which he wants published.. authors often toss around different stories before settling on the final direction they want their tale to go
Lihan Taifun: I'm glad he published the Silmarillion, though
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, me, too!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I guess some parts were more finished than others; but JRRT was heading toward publishing the SIlmarrillion
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: but we still don't know if Merfolk are Maiar or elves,or neither
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: a land elf, or a mer elf?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I have pointy ears!
AelKennyr Rhiano: So does Ulmo
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: and Irmo And Manwe
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: Ainur can manifest whatever shape suits them, and suits the situation -- I'm sure
Rhûn Darkmoon coughs and glances at the Lady Lihan,' I.. I have quite definite ideas of what I find attractive, Lady Siwan'... blushes
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: they would be naturally shapeshifters, yes. they would be NATURALLY spirit-beings, who could take whatever shape they choose
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: They could if they bred with a mortal. Elu and Melian?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: true ... there is that example of cross-breeding
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: This is the 4th Age, and a Tolkien based rp
Lihan Taifun: and we still aren't sure whether dragons and such involved cross-breeding with Maiar
Belenos the Bad: cross breeding or simply were maiar before melkor got hold of them?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: they can be, some are, there is a wide variety of Maiar
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: Belanos, dragons breed, don't they?
Belenos the Bad: Yes, they do now
Rhûn Darkmoon (zu.dragoone) blushes, 'If I may, we were discussing this very thing on the weekend, I believe, about the origins of dragons, and if they were now mortal or not.'
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: at the less-powerful side of Maiar, you have the fae-type
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: not in our rp
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: I'm not sure if he was in Tolkien's literature...was he definitively the last?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: oh, ok
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: I believe it was the last of the great dragons wasn't it? that none after him were as poweful or great?
Lihan Taifun: "extinct" might be too strong a word. maybe just no more dragons left in that part of the world
AelKennyr Rhiano: now, that I do remember, Belenos
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: the world is a lot bigger than the parts of Middle earth that are in Lord of the Rings
AelKennyr Rhiano: I don't know if that is necessarily logical. it doesn't really follow
Lihan Taifun: I don't think we can say for sure dragons are extinct, just because Sauron didn't have one handy
AelKennyr Rhiano: You could make the case that the last of the most powerful had vanished, perhaps
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: it does seem like dragons don't die of old age. not on any time scale worth worrying about
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: eeeeeeeiiii!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano groans
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: it is evil!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: uh oh, get her a bucket of water!
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod nod nod Should we talk about mermaids next time, maybe? give us a chance to research and read up?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I was just wondering what we might research
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: hmmm, good point; we could certainly speculate -- we're good at that!
AelKennyr Rhiano: Very good at that!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: ok, next week merfolk
AelKennyr Rhiano: yay!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: and I might drag fifi along too
Lihan Taifun: and when you have an idea how you would want to play your mermaid, write up an application :)
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes!
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: being the first mer-person in Fourth Age, you would have a lot of leeway
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: something logical, something that has rp potential
Belenos the Bad ponders if dragons like fish.. and.. mer.. *grins*
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: heh heh
Belenos the Bad: I was thinking more... food.. :D
Lihan Taifun: yes, I thought the Arador dragons ate a lot of fish
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: I hate to tell you this, but they aren't... there have been and currently are dragons in the fellowship role play
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: There were a group of dragons who rebelled against Morgoth and escaped into exile
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: yes.. they are good in that they are no longer under morgoth's command.. but they are still dragons.. and still get hungry.. they are by no means vegetarians.. *grins*
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: considering everything dragons eat tends to be chargrilled, i don't think they worry too much about taste
Belenos the Bad: and godmod?... tsk tsk tsk.. bad mermaid
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: mer-plankton
Belenos the Bad: I believe we have regulations about how long it takes to change form, do we not Lihan, Ael?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: i'ts not quite instantaneous
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: I don't know, ask Sakura
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Oh
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: it depends upon a lot of factors, Belenos
Belenos the Bad: and of course one of those factors is that I am an evil dragoness who cannot help teasing.. *grins*... as far as I know the dragons in the role play do not eat mer... :D
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think the most common rule is that if you transform, it should take a day before you transform again, unless you are in dire circumstances, and then you would be weakened physically after the shift.
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: hmmm, we didn't worry about that at the Ritual
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: as I said, most common rule.
Lihan Taifun: we may need to get a ruling from Sakura on shapeshifting'
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: The thing to avoid is someone shifting form without any consequences if they are mortal. O.O
Lihan Taifun: fae is different from Elven, in Tolkien
AelKennyr Rhiano: erm...no, you would be more powerful as Maiar
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: No
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Maiar are not mortal
Lihan Taifun: we have been treating fae as the least-powerful of the maiar
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: we should get a ruling from our gamemaster about shapeshifting
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: something practical, but not making it too easy for you if you are attacked
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Lihan Taifun: so, merfolk next week?
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, please
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Belenos the Bad: yes.... sounds good to me.. :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: Thank you, Lihan for tonight's discussion :)
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Rhûn Darkmoon: 'And I am happy to discuss whatever pleases you, my Lady, although I fear I listen more than discuss.'... blushes
Lihan Taifun: heh heh
Siwan Sandalwood: •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
AelKennyr Rhiano: Great discussion tonight? I meant...great discussion tonight!
