Tolkien Discussion Group
March 31, 2010
Topic: Fëanor's Oath
Present:
Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano
Summary:
Fëanor's Oath (to hunt down anyone who kept a Silamaril from him) applied only to himself and his seven sons, who joined him in the Oath. The Doom of the Noldor, banning them from returning to Valinor, applied to any of the Noldor who followed Fëanor out of the Blessed Lands. We find no record that the ban applies to the children of the individuals who left (although the storyline seems to assume that all Elves of Noldor descent are affected).
It was immature of Fëanor to be so attached to the Silmarili, but realistically what else could you expect, at that stage of his life?
The Silmarili serve a similar plot function to the One Ring - the infinitely attractive but cursed talisman. A similar talisman would be useful for 4th Age roleplay - an embodiment of something highly desireable, with some reason why no one could keep possession for long.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Surazeus just sent me this {his poem, appended later in this thread.} "Maglor" his name is usually spelled in the book
{Ael is called off on a Peacekeeper emergency.}
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Well, I would like to know about the Oath and how it affects the children of Earwen.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . did you look that up?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. But I am still not certain what is means for Earwen's children and their children. They are half Noldor after all.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . but none of them actually joined in the oath. Did they all go to Middle Earth?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . not all I think. Some did, to follow their cousins
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . just looking it up... It says when Finarfin turned and went back home, none of his sons came with him. But earlier Orodreth had been siding with his father Finarfin, so it seems strange that he would go on without him
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . so his sons were spared the Doom?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . it isn't really clear how much of Doom was addressed to all Noldor who left, and how much to Feanor and his sons directly
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just through swearing the oath . . it affected all coming generations until the end of the Age? or on into Ages beyond?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I don't think so
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . How far did the Oath and the effects extend, to how many generations?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . oh, here ... "On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth ... and upon all that will follow them also it shall be laid also"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . so only the House of Feanor?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and those who followed them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and all further great grandchildren
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, I'm not finding anything about future generations
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I didn't either
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just checking :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . Will we have to factor in the Oath and the Doom when we talk about 4th Age rp?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . remember, "those who followed" Feanor had already participated in the Kinslaying. I thought there was something around the end of the 3rd Age, that the Valar had lifted the ban, and was allowing the elves to go back home. We know the elves were taking ship back home. I don't remember now which event finally softened up the Valar. Seems like it was in the 3rd Age
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . hmm, which then would lead nicely into a new beginning for elves, in the 4th age
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . a new beginning? Being back in the Undying Lands?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes and also having the sanctions lifted by the Valar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . the Oath .....how did that affect the relationship between the Noldor in Tirion and the Valar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . I don't think the Noldor who stayed in Tirion were really affected, beyond having most of their relatives leave. After Finarfin came back, he was king in Tirion.
"But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps with sorrow ... There they received the pardon of the Valar, and Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm. But his sons were not with him, or they would not forsake the sons of Fingolfin"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . How much the Noldor must have felt, to be so sundered.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . hmm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes, a real tragedy for the Noldor, those who went, and those who stayed
[Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . but earlier Orodreth had been arguing on the side of the Noldor not doing anything rash, so I'm surprised he kept going at that point. On the other hand, some of the Noldor were afraid to go back and face the Valar, after the Kinslaying. Maybe that is the situation your grandsons were in
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Fifi, did you get a chance to look up anything this week?
{Ael is called back to Peacekeeper business again.}
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just a bit on th oath . . .nothing much to add specifically. What did come to mind, though, if I may? Well - it was the light of the silmarills . . .rather the desire/lust to possess that light that started that particular mess, and then, later . . it was the same for the Rings
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the rings?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i know ppl have been discussing a great darknes/ enemy rising again . . i think there needs to be a talismnan such as the silamarills or the ring of power, in the 4th age. Something that embodies the light and power . . . .
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, it certainly is good for storylines, something everyone wants to get their hands on for one or another reason. So, the Silmarils have the light ... and they are so beautiful that Feanor can't stand for anyone else to have them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes . . nods . . .that's what i thought might be a possibility
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and, actually Feanor put a curse, not on the Silmaril but on himself and his sons, to get the Silmarils back
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . originally he was more a guardian but it seemed that he became personally atteched - just a bit - lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . well, he did make them -- not the light, of course, but the stones
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes - and used some of his own essence. so - that was perhaps not well considered
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . making the Silmarils was not well considered?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . using his own essence . . it would be like blood or vital energy . . he said he could never duplicate the stones. The vala were unable to make them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the Valar didn't know the recipe
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but Feanor was not strong enough to (evolved?) to both create the stonesusing some his own self and maintaining the strength to let them go when asked. Thus not well thought out - he didn't know enough to make such a choice. He couldn't see the far reaching effects
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and how could he have been mature enough to do that? Does anyone start out mature
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . not possible
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so ... you can say "not well thought out" ... but one can hardly realistically expect him to have been able to do otherwise, at that stage of his life
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and that's what makes the story lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yep, lots of learning the hard way
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . being unable or refusing to let go of them, though . . . not so good
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . or at least immature
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . for the good of the whole . . for the healing of the Two Trees
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . easy to say when it is someone else who has to do the giving up
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . so what makes for a good talisman? It needs to embody something everyone wants, and there has to be a reason why someone who has it can't keep it
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . it is what the talisman stands for that or what it makes ppl feel . . that is the key
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . the Silmarils had Beauty, and the rings had Power
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes, something small and shiny
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . and addictively attractive
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and what will it embody? The jewels also had the Light
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . Who do we know in marketing? what do people crave? true love, sex, cleaner laundry
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . good question
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . electronic toys
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . power, fame, security,
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . tickets to RedSox games
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . a faster connection and a nicer sl
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . "Fame" we can do - have something that displays who currently owns the trinket. "Power" is maybe more a spellfire issue. "Security", "True Love" ... I don't know how to help with those
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . a better burger?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . if we could taste it ...
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . something people have the urge to flaunt, too, not just keep stuffed in inventory
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but small enough to hide
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . yes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . gems and jewels lol
