Tolkien Discussion Group
March 17, 2010
Topic: Groups of Elves
quickly turning to "Why Elves and Ainur Don't Understand Each Other"
Present:
Fifi Wickentower
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Dominique Darkwatch
InyaRay Oktomica
Summary:
After Oromë found the first elves and invited them to move to the Undying Lands, the Vanyar and Noldor travelled with good progress. The Teleri (or Lindor, as they called themselves) moved more slowly, and at each stopping point groups split off and stayed behind, becoming various tribes of "wild" elves of Middle Earth.
This splintering would have been very hard on Olwë's sense of leadership.
Much of what appears to be "aloofness" on the part of the Valar may be lack of social skills. The Ainur never had to work at being a community, and so never learned the social niceties. It was the elves who had to invent what it meant to be "family" and "friends", and how to treat each other. The Ainur started out with good intentions, but zero managerial skills.
The elves (despite their appearances) were all essentially children. The Ainur (despite appearances) were all unskilled new parents or untrained rookie managers. All with the added disadvantage of never having seen these relationships before. The stage was set for misunderstandings and disappointments.
It would be a great shock to the Elves when they realized that the Valar were neither all-knowing nor all-powerful.
While some of the Ainur wanted to help the elves, this was not strictly the Ainur's responsibility. The Children are, after all, "Children of Ilúvatar", not of the Valar.
Do Elves ever get tired of life? Do Ainur? Or is boredom a form of "wishing things were different" that would not occur to Ainur totally in harmony with their place in the unverse?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So tonight we talk about elves. AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yay elves!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Correct me if I am wrong, but most of the Silmarillion really talks about one clan of elves above all others...the Noldor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . mostly, and some about the Sindar
Dominique Darkwatch nods: So it seems
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . mostly because the 1st age?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought because the Vanyar and the Teleri were living happy lives and that doesn't make a good story
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Until the Kinslaying. But that is truly the last mention of the Teleri.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and maybe a brief mention that the Teleri visited Numenor
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . sigh . .
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, yes, true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We know there are "wild" elves. but more of them we really do not know.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we presume they are ancestors of the drow, but we don't know that for sure
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . could some of the wild elves be the missing Teleri (know i'm mixing ages) --- Drow - that is what i know very little of
Dominique Darkwatch: . Wild Teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but the wild elves are also the ancestors of other clans of elves that arose in Middle Earth.Well, actually, you {Dominique} are Teleri. Your ancestors can be traced back to Teleri.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . I know that my husband Orome discovered the elves.. in the first age
Dominique Darkwatch: . Really?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or, to be more accurate, the Lindors, which is what the Teleri called themselves. AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I'm right about this, aren't I, Lihan? and yes, Fifi has a point about missing Teleri :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . The Sindar certainly are Teleri
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And they became a clan unto themselves, certainly.
Dominique Darkwatch nods and giggles: Ah! The Lindors, yes! Lindors are they not related to the Lindens?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . All along their journey, fractions of the Teleri would remain behind and become a new clan of elves. And the Sindars themselves arose from Teleri ancestry.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I suppose elves from earlier groups who dawdled became Teleri?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, That I would not claim, but no other group has such a history as the Teleri. During the trek to the Shining Lands, at each stopping point, a group of Teleri remained behind.-- each of these groups.-- While Olwe had to marshall the rest and lead them ever onward.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It was worth the triup
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And we do not know the fate of these groups, not all of them.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Very few of the groups, really, just that there were those various elf tribes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So, yes, Lady Dominique, the chances are very good that you have Teleri blood.
Dominique Darkwatch listens intently: So it would seem most who stayed behind were of the Teleri
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . If only they had all followed Orome in the beginning...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if only ...
AelKennyr Rhiano nods quietly.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . the unwilling ... thier choice
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . more like the frightened. We were children. For all that we had adult form.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . true
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Melkor had already planted rumors
AelKennyr Rhiano nods As for Olwe, he never intended to rule but to follow Elu. He was an unwilling leader when it was thrust upon him, I think.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . But he rose to the need
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but Elwe had gotten lost! Melian was NOT helping here. This is no way to run an evacuation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . how terribly lonely he must have felt inside...leading them while the whole time not knowing what he was doing or what he was heading into.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . or what had happened to his brother
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . To lead is ever to be lonely
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and then at every stopping point to have a group splinter off...how that must have crushed his self esteem and sense ot leadership.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . did the earlier groups have people splinter off like that?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, not repeatedly, like the Teleri.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . maybe it was a relief? Maybe on purpose - like bread crumbs on the trail?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . perhaps it was theirs to be ever wanderers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I don't know
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . at least one group would be safe - not knowing what the journey or future would bring
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think, in those days, what kept him going was a blind trust in the Valar
Fifi Wickentower nods... yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . which happened to be well founded, but you didn't know that then
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, not at all
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we were pretty new at leadership, too
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, yes, and I am sure to a young Olwe, at times, it felt like his trust had been misplaced. As people stoppped and refused to go on.
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, the Valar seemed to be quite aloof for the most part
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . As he moved forward, the lies of Melkor spreading. We elves loved Oorome but were also afraid of him.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . He can be fearful in his anger
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And Osse was a temperamental Ainu
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well ... it seems like the more involved the Valar get,the worse we make the situation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And Ulmo, though he loved the Teleri was more in love with seas.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe we never got very good at management
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . in a sense the Valar are out of time in relation to the others
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . if the elves are looking to the Ainur as 'savior' . . . . remember, they are Spirits
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I believe we were looking for fathers and mothers
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . guidance
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . having none for ourselves in those first days.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . a way was prepared that would be followed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . protection
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . love
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . The way was prepared with great love, but one cannot follow a path for another
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but not great warmth.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and the sense of not being 'alone' in a new world with no history to draw from
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . exactly.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . A chlld must grow
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but we never knew childhood. Not the Eldars.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . warmth is a relative concept
Dominique Darkwatch: . I just think Manwe and Varda should have come down off the mountain a bit more in the early days
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Even Yavannah was aloof from the elves.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We didn't know much more about elves than you knew about the Ainur
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . Love is often shown by one and not recognized by the recipient as love
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . true, Lihan. In a way, we were all children. Only Elves didn't know that.
Dominique Darkwatch: . Orome was one of the few who bothered to meet the elves where they were
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . he was hunting ..always far afield
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and he inadvertantly scared the daylights out of them
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . nod nod nod nod
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . big and noisy
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . A slayer of beasts cannot be as a flower
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We were scared out of our elven pants.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . Elves were pioneers in a new manifestation
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "Congratulations, you are serial number 000000001"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . hahahaha
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . so true
{Fifi crashes and relogs}
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . .The Valar were initially separate so much from each other... it was how they were made. Perhaps a great gift to them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and, we never had to work at being a community, or getting along. It is a skill
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . It woud explain an apparent lack of care to elves
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, they had to work together against Melkor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We can work together, yes. But I meant, it isn't something we had to WORK at, or learn how to do. We were all together before Ea
Dominique Darkwatch: . oh, right
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so, social skill, the little things of going out of your way to do something nice for someone, that wouldn't even occur to Ainur
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . The elves also pioneered entirely new ways of interacting . . family friends etc
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . because they had not experience of it
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . yes, so charming
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, so the elves really were ahead of us there. Not that you knew that.
Dominique Darkwatch: Well...it does seem the elves had to invent pretty much everything
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . none ever had to our knowledge . . the elves were an entirely new concept - The Ainur were blown away lol
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . the world was not for the Valar.. but for the children
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i don't know i'd say 'ahead of' . . in that it was an entirely new way of manifesting for Illuvator
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . exactly!! The world and the children wree created for each other
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Elves were OF the world, The Ainur are not. .. what she said.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . like giving your child a place to live
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . and then stepping away to let them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes!!! . . . it's just that because of the great love the Ainur have for Er . . . Anything that was created was 'good' and this was so out of the 'normal' that their curiosity was piqued
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . How, in the 4th Age, how would the Ainu see the elves? How do you think the elves see themselves?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . By the 4th age, most of the elves have come back to the Blessed Lands. They have had their turn at Middle earth, and most ofthem are tired of it
Dominique Darkwatch: . In the 4th age, I think remaining elves in middle earth are like an indigeninous people who are in decline
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . good analogy
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . as the world became denser with each passing age . . .so the elves started to lose their vibrancy and oneness with the world
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and the elves in the Blessed Lands are OLD
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and so 'appear' to be immortal
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but they are tired and bored, and envy the humans who can die and move on
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . that is the 'strangeness' of the gift
Dominique Darkwatch: . Tired and bored?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, the Noldor who returned are
Dominique Darkwatch: . Tired, yes, since they had been so busy either causing or getting into trouble!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I sort of imagine even the Vanyar must be feeling like they have already done everything they wanted to do
AelKennyr Rhiano blinks
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and even living happily for a few more millenia is just more of the same
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, that is a very mortal way of seeing it, I think
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe, not like I would know
Dominique Darkwatch: . The elves, like the Valar, found joy in creation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think that for a long time after the Teleri came to the shining Lands, they knew great joy.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . may be not so much when Man was creted
Dominique Darkwatch: . And it is said that Eru created something new in every age which had not been seen before
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Do you ever run out of new songs to write?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . I was wondering if one grows tired of such. It seems a bottomless well
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And unlike the Noldor, through their knowledge of Ainur like Ulmo, Osse and Unien, they feel obedient to the wishes of the Valar, but after the kinslaying. I wonder if at least Olwe would have felt a little betrayed by the Valar, by the Noldor. He protected and guided them to what was supposed to be a safe land. Instead their blood stained the harbor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I wonder how long before Olwe noticed that the Valar didn't know everything
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I wondered that, too. I wondered how long he mourned and kept apart. Tried to protect his people. Perhaps this is why the Teleri dropped out of the history.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . after the kinslaying, you mean?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and/or assuming that was when he realized the Valar were finite and fallible?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that must have been very frightening to him
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . ahem . . . . finite?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, we don't know everything, we can't fix everything
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and fallible assumes a predicted outcome fueled by expectations
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and suddenly, he realized taht.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . the elves had expectations that the vala were under no obligation to fulfill. If they want to blame - the Illuvatar would be the choice... but because they couldn't actually 'see' or communicate directly the elves chose the only ones they did have limited acces to - those few vala who chose to interact
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and, what is more, that we didn't have the social skills of persuasion to work with a bunch of upset Noldor
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . how did we choose? We did not.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . no??
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We didn't select Osse over Nienna. It was Osse who befriended us. And Unien and Ulmo. Manwe chose to remain apart, so did others.
Dominique Darkwatch nods: they can create earth, sky and moon but can't stop the Noldor from stealing and burning some ships
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . They could not stop them from slaying their kin.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And we did try to stop the Noldor, and failed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We have free will. You did try, but the bottom line is that the noldor had free will
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . free will, yes, great mistakes to be made. It must be so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but Fifi was saying "expectations that the Valar had no obligation to fulfil"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was wondering about that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . in this case, we did want the Noldor to settle down, and not do anything rash
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we tried, as much as we could without forcing them ... not very skillfully, and maybe nothing would have worked
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . in the larger picture . . . . . . Arda was for the elves . . . Illuvatar did not require that any Valar participate
Dominique Darkwatch: . It seems the Valar were charged with caring for the children of Iluvatar, were they not?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . for preparing a place
Dominique Darkwatch: . Eru gave them a brief glimpse of the elves before they came to be...and many of the Ainu loved them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but they were not charged with being the 'parental units'
Dominique Darkwatch: . They anticipated their arrival....so much that Aule could not wait
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . individual choices
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . one can anticipate the flowering of a field with great joy. The elves were their own... of Illuvitar, not created by the Valar
Dominique Darkwatch: . But this was a big reason why many Ainur came to Arda
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . like going to see a new art installation
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We did bring the elves to the Blessed Lands to keep them safe
Dominique Darkwatch: . The only one who really pays a lot of attention to the elves in middle earth is Melkor!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and he was power mad
Dominique Darkwatch: . He was able to use the aloofness of the Valar to sow seeds of fear
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . surprising how little attention most of the Valar pay to Middle Earth
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . Orome was one of the few who was known to go there
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, and Yavanna
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and that was to prepare
Dominique Darkwatch nods: once the Valar get settled, they seem to confine themselves to their own little corner. W hy didn't THEY get bored?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . the elves only can know a small part of the totality of the Valar . . . what says that Arda is all and everything to the Valar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . who says we aren't bored?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . *not bored lol
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . Boredom is a form of objection. If one konws this will serve no purpose, perhaps it just does not occur
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . a form of objection?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . it is refusal to accept what is
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . wow, I need to think on that awhile :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yavanna probably gets very excited about each new flower
Dominique Darkwatch smiles and nods: Yes...but what does she do during the winter?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Winter isn't that long. Besides, now the earth is round, and there are two hemispheres
Dominique Darkwatch smiles: so it is always spring somewhere
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . yay !!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and that is exactly the point!!!!! an elfcentric point of view
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . only an elf could invent such a phrase
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . there is much more to be known than appears to be
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . The smaller perspective unable to grasp the larger. The elves did not understand the Valar.. but nor really did the Valar understand the elves
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . perhaps if you think of it in terms of . . . . . valar have never had a body
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . ok - valar+nor body (as an elf would think of one), totally different type of experience - one step denser manifestation elf to valar. Of course it would be hard to relate,and the natural inclination is to expect the 'other' to think and perceive and be as we are. Less so from valar to elf . . yet from elf to valar i believe elf would expect that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . The elves expect the Valar to think like elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think you do have something
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . valar would think like they do . . thus the reputation for aloofness'
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . At least in the beginning. A 4 year child expects everyone to see the world as he does
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . what other explanation when i hear that the valar are aloof, removed , uncaring?,
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Babies have to learn "Me/not me"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and sees himself as the center
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and teenagers ... "my parents don't understand!"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but the Valar would be doing the same thing
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . would they?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think so. Becaues when would they have ever had another sentient life form in their experience? outside of God
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . all of tolkien is from the Elves point of view ie: elfcentric
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . just a couple of chapters about the Valar, and most of that is general descripitions of the archetypes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Is it not more Noldor/Sindar centric?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nod nod I never said teleri-centric
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, I know :) I meant that the view was even more narrowed in its view
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . oh yes!! and you may find that it narrows even more down to each individual :D
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . at least the overarching story of the Silmarils means the focus is on the Noldor, mainly on the sons of Feanor, who were bound up in the oath
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We could talk about that oath and the implications next time, if you guys wanted. It is really important in Tolkien's work I think
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh, that is a good topic. That is what drives the plot
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . just a quicky, tho . . . what am i missing? where is drow in tolkien?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Eol is the only named one.That I know of
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . In Tolkien? I don't remember drow in Tolkien.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nor I
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well, I thought the description of the "wild" elves, who never even started on the road to Aman sounded a bit like drow... uncivilized, amoral ...but, they aren't really in the story
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i think not a tolkien creation
Dominique Darkwatch: Aredhel's husband was a dark elf
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, except for him
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I thought the wild elves were descendants of those who did not travel to the undying lands.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . there are night elves, dark elves, drow . . not all the same
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . there, that shows what I know
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and not all are wilde elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I would think that drow might be the descendants of those elves who were "turned" by Melkor.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but not all the way to orcs
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . right
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . well - i have to do more research - just wondered if i was missing something really obvious - like i am wont to do :P
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . so - next week, the oath
