Topic for March 10: Elf, Human, and Ainur Sex
"Who has the best?"
Recommended Reading: Essays which quote extensively from Professor Tolkien's essay "Laws and Customs of the Eldar"
What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex
and the drier, more scholarly Warm Beds are Good: Sex and Libido in Tolkien's Writing
Why & How NOT To Write A Middle-earth Romance
(The first part of this essay is how to avoid writing bad love scenes; the second part is background on what is known of Elvish customs.)
This week's topic is similar to our discussion last October, but I am sure we can find new angles to discuss. We always do.
Tolkien Discussion Group
March 10, 2010
Topic: Romance, Sex and Marriage
Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Aredhel Glendale
Dominique Darkwatch
Lihan Taifun
Summary:
Why does Tolkien consider interspecies pairings unions to be "doomed" or "tragic"?
- Humans are short-lived, compared to elves, so the lovers will soon be separated.
- Humans and elves have different fates after death, so the separation will be permanent (unless one partner renounces his or her natural destiny).
- These unions (or the children from these mixed unions) are also considered a source of hope for the world.
The Noldor king Finwë remarried after his first wife, Miriel, died. This remarriage was considered a disaster. Would only the Noldor have prohibited second marriages, or would this rule have spread to all elves?
- Probably all the elves in Aman would have followed that example.
- The Sindar of Doriath, Thingol's people would not have heard about Finwë until the Noldor returned to Middle Earth. At that point, they disliked the Noldor so much, would they have adopted a Noldor custom?
- We don't know anything about the customs of the Moriquendi/drow, but they likely were not very "civilized".
- The question probably seldom came up, since and elf would only be interested in remarrying if his/her partner died very young.
Aredhel Glendale: Moriquendi are somewhere between High Elves and orcs. High Elves were educated by Valar. Orcs were educted by Morgoth... Moriquendi were educated by nobody.
While the Valar may have taught the High Elves about "civilized" behavior, it was more likely the elves who taught theValar about the biological mechanics of sex. Unless Yavanna already knew something about animal reproduction, from the Song.
We don't know much about elvish marriage ceremonies. We do know elves who married without ceremony or without approval from their families felt they were missing something. So the official formalities had some value to the elves.
Were Beren and Luthien privately "married" before returning with the Silmaril? Possibly. If they were, Thingol would probably have done exactly what he did do: try to get Beren killed.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . : Did people get a chance to read the material? a summary of what Prof. Tolkien wrote about elvish customs
AelKennyr Rhiano . . . . : Ladies I will be right back. A matter on alqualonde calls me.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : I was suprised that elves are old enough to marry at 100
Dominique Darkwatch . . : haha...seems funny thinking about a 50 year-old adolescent
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : they live so long, I guess I imagined that they grew very slow
Dominique Darkwatch thinks of some mid-life human crises: And then again...maybe not
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : anything you wanted to comment about?
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Hmm....well in Sylvhara we have a mixture of several races. And it seemed like inter-racial/species unions were doomed according to Tolkien
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : at least very awkward. He does tell about several, so it does happen occasionally
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Well, the human-elf pairs, and one drow-elf pair
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : hehe how about halfelf elf pair ;/
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : first you have the elf-human union, then the half-elf children have to do something
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Well... Tolkien elves are very strongly influenced by his ideals, ideals of christianity, touch of noble medieval tradition of honour
Dominique Darkwatch . . : and keeping the bloodlines pure?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : at least his ideas of Christianity
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : there are of course another sources for elves
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : keeping bloodlines pure in what sense?
Dominique Darkwatch . . : I was just wondering why the mixed pairings would always have to be so tragic
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : because fate I suppose
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : well, humans are so short lived, compared to elves. That is one problem
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : oh... They are not only tragic... they are also sources of Hope
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : and another is probably their destiny after death...
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : yes, so the lovers will be separated after death
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Yes...that after death destiny was an issue
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : So if he speaks about union of bodies also as union of souls... there is a problem of souls with mixtured fate. If we look at it very philosophically
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : if it is a "union" of souls, how can they then be separated?
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Hmmm...they would have to be ...... torn apart
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : ouch
Dominique Darkwatch . . : yes....OW
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Well... for elves... there is certainly some sort of band ...even when dead
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Apparently, yes
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : so... They dont have to live together, one may be in Mandos... and still they are connected.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : and eventually they could be reunited
Dominique Darkwatch . . : And the marriage bond somehow changed their appearance or something about them, for one could tell just by looking at another if they were married
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Mostly I think so... Because they are ideal... JRRT probably suppose that there is only one ideal partner for each other... :/
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : nods. But there is actually Miriel's problem then ... we know...
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : Miriel?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Miriel was mother of famouse Noldo - Feanor, in Silmarillion. She died very young and refused to come back into world from Mandos
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Ah..yes. Didn't she just give up on living? Maybe it was having all those kids
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Yes, she did. Felt too tired after gave birth of such energic child ;)
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : poor mom
Dominique Darkwatch giggles
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : But her husband... Finwe... the high king wanted to have a wife, felt into love again, and married again.
Dominique Darkwatch nods: Another tragedy
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : at least this was institucioned by Valar
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : and then the half-brothers always fought
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : oh... actually... he is my character grandfather, if he didn't I am not here. grins gring ;O)
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Well, it seems there is a sort of cloud of tragedy hanging over the elves
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : nods... Feanor was very energic and so he had a power to has so many kids -- unusual number for elves
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : yes,a huge family, HIS poor wife!
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : :))))
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : do you think it was only the Noldor who decided to only have one wife or husband? or did all the elves do that?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : hmm..... thinking... Not sure about Moriquendi
Dominique Darkwatch . . : I don't know of any other examples
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : but certainly all elves in Aman, and I think Sindar too
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : how would the Sindar know? unless Melian told them that story
Dominique Darkwatch . . : As you said, it was an extension of Tolkien's beliefs
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : but... Melian had already left Aman before that happened
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : later... many sindar was living with other elves, some in Gondolin, Vinyamara and othe hidden cities
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : oh, yes, I see, after the Noldor came back to MIddle Earth
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Do you think in Elu's manner it could be different? The true is Melians belt was very separated ...
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : and, they didn't like the Noldor very much
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : hehe nods nods
Dominique Darkwatch . . : I can't blame them much
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : even when somethimes married them . grins big smile
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : they were related to the Teleri, who the Noldor attacked, and stole their swan-boats
Dominique Darkwatch nods
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : and then burned them
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : yes! not a good way to make friends
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : oh ayia, certainly
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : so, even if they heard the story of Finwe, they might not want to copy the rule from the Noldor
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : So what do you mean? that after partners death they never married again?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : yes
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : oh I see...
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : anyway I think this was very rare. Partner had to die when very young
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : hmmm, probably
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Or the Valar might have taken a step back and decided it was a bad idea
{Lihan crashes and relogs}
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Sindar.. were learned by Maia... but not sure about their rules...
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : you know how much the Noldor listened to the Valar :P
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : hi hihhih ^^ I do! :)
Dominique Darkwatch . . : oh, true
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : just like a bunch of teenagers!
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Oh yes, I am very teenage, mom ;O)
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : interresting task is about Moriquendi
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : what about the Moriquendi?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Moriquendi are those elves who primarlly were not influenced and well teached by Valar, never started journey to Aman
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : probably became the drow
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : lived hidden in forrests, we even dont know about count of their tribes; and it means they vere not educated in "vision of Eru Iluvatar" and "right manners" ;p
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : so who knows that they lived like!
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : yop... the best source for drows on Tolkien . except my husband :)
Dominique Darkwatch . . : hehe
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Yes, who knows... They could have also such bad thing as sex before marriadge ! ;O)
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : with Moriquendi, you never know!
Dominique Darkwatch . . : From what I gather sex WAS marriage for the elves
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : yop.. but just imagine. this is partly task of education
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : yes, if they were not educated ...
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Moriquendi are somewhere between Hight elves and orcs. If we imagine orc... and THEIR sexuality
Dominique Darkwatch . . : ew
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : I never figured orcs worried about "marriage" at all
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : I mean... Hight elves vere educated by Valar. Orcs were educted by Morgoth... Moriquendi were educated by nobody :P They have to discover sexuality on their own ;)
Dominique Darkwatch . . : So...Morgoth and the Valar gave sex education classes?
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : rofl
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : laught
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : I imagine the elves already figured out how to have sex, before we even found them
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : hih
Dominique Darkwatch . . : hehe...and what kind of sex lives did the Valar have, anyway
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : right, *we* and the ones who have to learn how ... unless we never do learn. Nienna doesn't
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : giggle
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : Melian does. I bet it took Melian a lot of practice to build a body that worked well enough
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : oh my dear :D
Dominique Darkwatch . . : hahaha...trial and error
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Me thinks if she had to make fitting adjusted animations :D
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : we started out only knowing what bodies looked like, not how they worked
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Now I imagine partners discussion with ELU :D Om my dear... how work... this... :D
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Hahaha...they would have had to learn sex from the elves!
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : yes, who is teaching sex-education classes now?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : hmmm...
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : or how about sex is weapon of Enemy and elves learned from orcs? ;p
Dominique Darkwatch thinks of a Monty Python skit: Pay attention, yavonna, I am not going to repeat this
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : If Valar didn't know about bodies, and The found elves after some time of increasing
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : hmmm
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : it is also possible they learned it from Enemy and original idea was different ;)
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : I don't think Professor Tolkien would have thought of that
Dominique Darkwatch nods: I think that might be a stretch
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Oh I think so. Just play with topic...
Dominique Darkwatch . . : But Morgoth was forever breeding dark creatures
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : he was
Dominique Darkwatch . . : So he knew the business
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : true, and probably there was sort of it of between Yavanna's animals
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : so Yavanna might learn how it works
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Right...she would have to at least in a functional sense
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Maybe even she got is as gift of knowledge for Eru before start of world...
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : maybe
Dominique Darkwatch . . : It might have been simply part of her song
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : it might
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : How do you imagine ritual of elven marriage? I mean except final part
Dominique Darkwatch . . : That is a good question
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : or engagement
Dominique Darkwatch . . : The readdings seemed to indicate it was not a huge deal
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : not a lot of ceremony?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : I think Noldor like the ritual. Because I remember it was a problem Aredhel married without agreement of family and without ceremony and gifts. I imagine certain difference between Middle Earth elves and elves in Aman
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Hmmm..so there might have been some expectation
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : And even Luthien... she married without agreement, but still wanted it very much
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : without her parents' agreement?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : yop. and she married mortal.
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Well, the whole quest of Beren was about securing that agreement
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : do you think Beren and Luthien waited until they had Thingol's permission? for humans, that would be hard to imagine
Dominique Darkwatch . . : um....hard to say. They certainly spent tons of time alone in he woods
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : and on some very dangerous journeys
Dominique Darkwatch . . : There was an unmistakable bond between them
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : certainly
Dominique Darkwatch . . : But if elves could tell if one another were married by looking at them, it should have been obvious on Luthien
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : and then what could Thingol have done about it?
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Tried to keep them apart, until he got something he wanted
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : AFTER they were married? good luck
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : :)))
Dominique Darkwatch . . : And so it sort of played out that way
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Well... It was different because beren was human. Mabe he just wanted to wait until Beren die
Dominique Darkwatch . . : true
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : yes, he could do that
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : so he send him into quest: death Beren = no reincarnatin = no bound = Luthien again free
Dominique Darkwatch . . : But it might have grieved Luthien to death to lose Beren
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : he did hope Beren would die on the quest
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Nods. Elu was selfish... and blind in some way... While he also married like this! it was in the family...
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Aye...dysfunctional family!
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : did Melian object to Beren?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : well... he passed the belt ;)
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : good point
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : If I am right she was not against. Father was problem. But dont remember this part so well
Dominique Darkwatch . . : Yes...she saw bad things coming from the quest
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : what should we talk about next week?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : I am able to come only occasionally, don't ask me.
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : we are glad when you can come
Dominique Darkwatch tries to remember the ideas we had come up with
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : Thanks :) I am too
Dominique Darkwatch smiles: Yes!
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : differences between humas - elves, where did the drows come from, ... ;) valar and their bodyform ;)
Lihan Taifun . . . . . . . . . : aren't the drow Moriquendi?
Aredhel Glendale . . . . : I think Tolkien would be against ;) But it seems they are the most similar. But only one truely Dark Elf was Eöl the Moredhel ;)
Dominique Darkwatch . . : True...a sample of one is not a lot to draw from
