Tolkien Discussion Group
March 24, 2010
Topic: Elves, continued
Present:
Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano
InyaRay Oktomica
Ossy Portocarrero
Harumi Oanomochi
Dominique Darkwatch
Wolfstar Raymaker
Kratholis Vanistok
Sunshine Hanfoi
Summary:
What happened to the Elves who did not take the ships from the Gray Havens to the Undying Lands, who stayed in Middle Earth? Most likely they either adapt (such as learning to mentor humans) or gradually lose interest in the world and withdraw.
Humans are jealous of elven immortality, and elves are said to be jealous of the human "gift of death."
We discussed the realm of Ithildor, Wolfstar and Harumi's home.
We know nothing about whether or not Gil-Galad left any descendants behind when he went into Mordor.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . My memory was bad
Fifi Wickentower . . . . . and i forgot it was the oath :(
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so which topic do we want for tonight?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i would certainly like to know more about the oath . . . but am a bit under-prepared :(
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so we could save that for next week, as an option
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I would like to talk about Feanor's oath, too.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe next week, then, so people have more time to read up
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what loose ends did we leave about elves? "Do elves ever get bored?" (That wasn't exactly where we left the question)
Ossy Portocarrero bites back a smartaleck answer
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . i thought .. perhaps they were the first creation to experience time
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so elves ... elves are thefirst beings to experience time
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . so perhaps did not handle it easily
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . would it be hard to learn?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . but they never knew any different
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It is hard to imagine having "time" be a new concept
Dominique Darkwatch: . Hmm...sort oflike breathing
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . the Valar did not have finite time though
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . but the Ainu, before the elves... had no real concept of time. But elves feel time differently than humans. That was kind of the point. Elves and dwarves live longer, so they experience time in large spaces
Kratholis Vanistok: . . likewise with different creatures
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . might we ask what tribe of Elves our guests from Ithildor are?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . We are Moon Elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . anything you would like to say about Moon Elves?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . As Darthien del lil drathir we have a closeness to the lunar cycles and the creatures that associate with the moon...though we feel close to all elvenkind and all peaceful races.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . lovely
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . we haven't found our controversial question yet for the evening ....
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . well, I have heard an elf claim descent from Gil....let me look at how that is spelled.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . yes . . that was a bold statement
Dominique Darkwatch: . Gil-Galad?
Kratholis Vanistok: . . I have one, cant remember the name of the event, but it's one that would come across with time
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, thank you. I drew a blank
Kratholis Vanistok: . . What happens to elves if they don't go to... evermeet is it?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . or perhaps we might speak more of this descendant? alledged
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and ....oooopps, forgive me. Please go ahead
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Could you explain, Kratholis?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Please, Kratholis, continue. I can wait :)
Kratholis Vanistok: . . well, The only times I ever hear of it is in DnD, but I never figured out what happens to elves if they dont go to Evermeet [if that is even the place]
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Evermeet is...?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . i think it is like the Halls
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . are we talking about dead elves?
Kratholis Vanistok: . . I dont know, the equivilent to where the elves go when they have to go to the ships? could never remember the name
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the Grey Havens? to take the ships back to the Undying Lands?
Kratholis Vanistok: . . yes! that's it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ah! Some elves do stay in Middle Earth
Kratholis Vanistok: . . so, my question is, wha happens to an elf that doesnt go to the undying lands?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . some may still be here in the 21st century
Wolfstar Raymaker:. . . There are a few speculations on the subject of those they chose to stay.....Some say they lose there immortality some say they find a new haven though it is only speculation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Elves who die pass to the halls of Mandos.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, but it is fairly rare for an elf to be killed. I didn't know an elf could lose immortality
Dominique Darkwatch: . Hmmm...not lose I don't think...
Harumi Oanomochi: . . The undying lands in the West are a haven, but it may well be that some remain. Few elves die though some reach advanced age and retire from everyday existence.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . it was said ... they get bored
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . why? When they get bored or tired of living they take the ships .. if they arent bored, they hang around. Wasn't that the point?
Dominique Darkwatch: . The term is, they "grow weary of middle earth"
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . to grow weary of something means you're bored of it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They must become a more and more elusive race. Humans don't see them much
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think those who remain either adapt to the new world, the changes or history or they withdraw more and more
Dominique Darkwatch: . Not bored as much as tired of it...tired of the persecution, the violence of humans
Ossy Portocarrero:. . . . with withdrawal, is there madness? Well it could be either or Dominique, couldnt it?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . perhap some have a reason to stay
Dominique Darkwatch: . It could be, but elves are very creative beings...not prone to boredom
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . notes that Dominique is very young as elves go :))
Dominique Darkwatch: . But they are prone to being weary of grief
Kratholis Vanistok: . . is an old old OLD draggy
Sunshine Hanfoi: . . . . wasn't Melkor's influence greatest in those Eastern lands... so their hearts would have grown cold perhaps
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what might motivate them, Inya?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . a promise
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Hold on... If humankind does not see them then how can they be persecuted?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a good reason to keep out of sight
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . By the 5th age, human would begin to doubt their very existence
Harumi Oanomochi: . . Elves sometimes refer to humans as having "the gift of death" and strangely enough, the humans think that immortality is a blessing and they crave it...yet either one, death or immortality is neither pure blessing nor pure curse...they just are and one lives with each as one is able.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, each jealous of the other
Harumi Oanomochi: . . unfortunately.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . you know, everyone talks as though the elven lifespan is a curse. : I do not know that it is.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . it's a challenge, but no curse. *smiles*
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nod nod nod
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And I think that is a biased outlook.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But we speak of them weighed down by their years, of being bored, heavy with grief.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . A Blessing . . as is any gift of life from Illuvatar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . How would we really know what it is like to live that lifespan?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . and that is why we elves take care to meditate...to "reverie" and sort through our memories and thoughts and in a way file them...it's not unlike having an inventory...it gets out of hand if we don't stay on top of it.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, we age differently than humans.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . wow, like sorting your photographs
Harumi Oanomochi nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . isn't that what bards do, for a society? tell the stories, sort things out, make sense of it all
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and oral history
Dominique Darkwatch had never thought of it that way
Harumi Oanomochi: . . I think the difference between human and elven memories is that we recall something and we are back in the moment...we see the memory all around us, not in a two dimensional remembrance like a photo, but everywhere as it happened. *shrugs* Or so it was explained to me by my elven teachers.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . I wonder what an elf would say today
Fifi Wickentower would like to experience memory
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . When humans age, their oldest memories become sharper. Their most recent is less sharp. or, I've heard they forget and live only in the moment
Harumi Oanomochi smiles and nods..."Aye, but that is because when older memories are made they are recalled many times and patterns established...whereas with the more recent, as they age, it's harder to hold onto the memories...or so I'm told."
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . nods . . . how curious
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . Do you have much contact with humans? or are invisible, also, to them?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . I did at one time. But now we live apart from most of them, though we have an adopted human daughter.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . oh my!!! and, if I may ask, how did that come abut?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . She needed guidance and protection and we were able to provide it. *Smiles at her beloved husband* Wolf found her.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . how kind
Fifi Wickentower smiles. How fortunate and generous
Dominique Darkwatch listens with much interest
Harumi Oanomochi: . . She is a joy to us. Though we also have our natural elven children, Meristrae and Istarion now. Also great joy.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a busy household
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . do you see many other elven clans?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . We have been known to visit Sylvhara and so have met many folk.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . a beautiful place
Harumi Oanomochi: . . And we are exploring other realms as well now that our homeland is established.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Inya, did you ever explain what might give elves renewed interest in life?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . . I think to stay they would have to become interested in humans
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . would have to? why?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . taking in human children?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . yes .. mentoring perhaps, as their own race dwindled. It wold be natural
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . well. . then as our good friends here have done, then :)
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . yes.. so sweet
Dominique Darkwatch: . But as a human....your daughter is not immortal as the elves
Harumi Oanomochi: . . No...she is not...she ages as any human young woman does. But her nature is elf-like and we encourage her to live as we do.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But did Tolkien say the elven race would dwindle precisely, or do we get that from other traditions?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and other traditions see th elves quite differently
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I remember elves inTolkien saying their race was dwindling. But remember those were the same elves heading for the ships. We don't hear much about about the attitudes of the elves who are enjoying staying.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . Well, we "undwindled" the race in December when I gave birth. *laughs* twins
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . oh my
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh, these are very young children, then!
Harumi Oanomochi: . . aye, but they grow too quickly in the magic of our realm.
Dominique Darkwatch smiles: Your realm sounds like an interesting place
Harumi Oanomochi smiles and nods. "You are all welcome to visit."
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . well,of course, THEY live there
AelKennyr Rhiano smiles
Harumi Oanomochi laughs. We like to think that we remain among the other races because we are an influence for good.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . have you a sea?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . Sadly no...we are landlocked save for a long river.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and the river??? does it flow to a sea?
Harumi Oanomochi: . . eventually, yes....of course, but it goes through many lands, many dangers...many places where time itself is uncertain.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . in features and coloring, you look very closely related to the Teleri.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . wondering if the elves get bored in the Undying Lands..
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was curious to know the fate of the line of Gil-Galad in Middle Earth.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Was it known that Gilgalad had a family? Is anything known about Gilgalad's familiy situation?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . I don't know. That was my question, I guess.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . It is said that Gil Galad disappeared into Mordor.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so did Isildur, but he left a family behind back home
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Did Gil-Galad?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I'm not sure it ever said
Dominique Darkwatch: . I do not recall either
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . elves marry young, so he certainly could have
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Would a descendant of his been seen as a king?
Dominique Darkwatch sighs: Lord Varanwe claims many things
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . and what would be his to rule?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Most of the Noldor left middle earth in the end
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . if it were true?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, I am not sure if the Nowell, I was just curious.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . perhaps this is a good stopping point? next time, the Oath of Feanor?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oath of Feanor, sounds good
Harumi Oanomochi curtsies...thank you m'lord Olwe
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Hope to see you again
Harumi Oanomochi: . . You shall indeed. and I look forward to exploring your lands and getting to know your people.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . please do
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . You are most welcome.
Harumi Oanomochi: . . We want to become more active in the clans of all elves in this world.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . as do I.
