The Kinslaying

Tolkien Discussion Group August 11, 2010 Topic: The Kinslaying, mostly Present: Shawn Daysleeper Ilianor Illios Lihan Taifun Rosie Gray AelKennyr Rhiano Summary: All of Eärwen's children -- Olwë's grandchildren -- went into exile with the Noldor. So Olwë was hit twice: first by the Kinslaying, then by seeing all his descendants go into exile. The second group of Noldor -- those traveling with Fingon and Fingolfin, rather than Feänor -- arrived at Alqualondë in the middle of the battle, not knowing who started it, or why. Did they share the same moral responsibility for the Kinslaying? If the second group of Noldor thought the Teleri were acting on orders from the Valar to stop them, would that have made a difference in the responsibility? The Valar in fact did very little to stop the Noldor, only warning them of the eventual consequences. The Noldor's actions are a similar archetype to Eve taking the apple in the Garden of Eden -- the desire to be "godlike", to control one's own destiny. This may be the reason the Noldor are written as the "heroes" of the story. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Shall we start? Did anyone find anything interesting in this chapter? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I have to confess I haven't read it lately Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Last week's group picked it. The three clans of elves, and their leaders, and how they came to Aman. It seems like we might already know all this. Shawn Daysleeper: . I found this chapter to be pretty straight forward Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . You must have a story though, Shawn! Rosie Gray smiles broadly Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Getting everyone moved in to their new homes {AelKennyr arrives. Greetings all around.} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . We are just trying to find something interesting about tonight's chapter Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I liked the part where the Teleri took all the jewels and dumped them on the seashore, and had the prettiest beach! AelKennyr Rhiano beams Shawn Daysleeper smiles. Ya we Teleri do things like that Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I wonder what the Noldor thought of that. It probably happened before Feanor was born AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes It was part of our Alqualonde Urban Renewal Program Shawn Daysleeper laughs AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Keep Alqualonde Beautiful! Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Pick up your trash? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I always wondered why Tolkien chose the Noldor to be the "heroic" elves? Does that make sense? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . They had the most growing up to do? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm Not sure I'd go too far looking for "sense" in Tolkien! Shawn Daysleeper: . They were risk takers, more so than the other kindreds Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . He just had to pick a group to be the good guys AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hahah Hey I'm serious Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Were they more of risk takers? Or just that they got off to a bad start, and had to do a lot to clean things up again AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It's interesting...the Teleri were the sailors, but the Noldor were the swashbucklers Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . and the Sindar the forest dwellers -- except for the caves ㋡ AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Here is a question...what would have happened to the Teleri post LOTR? I mean, we have them involved in Ea, and they are now part of the world actively...but if we look back to Tolkien...would they just have remained "homebodies?" Shawn Daysleeper: . The Teleri probably would have stayed in Alqualonde, in Tolkein, post LOTR AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I often wondered how poor Earwen felt about all that. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . How do you mean? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Earwen stayed in Tirion? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, by all accounts she does. Consider that she is Teleri, but married to a Noldor. So "conflicted" must be an understatement at the time of the Kinslaying.. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes indeed AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Then you have what comes later...with the Noldor. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Presumably it took a while for the news to get back to Tirion AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Her children are raised in the Noldor culture, with Noldor values....and that bloody history. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Some of the Noldor did abandon the trip, and go back home, but they weren't the ones who really know what happened In Alqualonde Shawn Daysleeper nods AelKennyr Rhiano nods, too Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or she might have gone back home to Alqualonde herself AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Would she have left her family? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . How many of her children stayed? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Which pull would have been stronger...the pull of her husband and children, or the pull of her Teleri heritage? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Tirion would have been lovely, and comforting too though, because they could see the two trees AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Persumably she remains in Tirion with Finarfin Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Finarfin went back to Tirion, but all the children went on? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Checking myself on that one Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was having trouble finding it Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I get pretty confused about that Shawn Daysleeper: . I thought I read Finarfin's sons were involved in the wars in Dorthornion Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Finrod founded the original Minas Tirith in the Pass of Sirion, and was later Lord of Nargothrond. He was the oldest son Shawn Daysleeper: . So her sons went in exile. Were there any daughters? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Galadriel Shawn Daysleeper: . ah yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . ㋡ The lovely Galadriel Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . We have Galadriel's grandpa here with us AelKennyr Rhiano: . . She has my nose :) Shawn Daysleeper: . I have trouble keeping some of the genealogy straight AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Angrod was the second son. His name was a Sindarized form of his Telerin Quenya name Angarato, which means "Iron Champion". Together with Aegnor he held the northen slopes of the highlands of Dorthonion against Morgoth. They were both killed in the Dagor Bragollach Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I think a whole bunch of them were descendants of Melian too, but it's hard to keep it all straight Shawn Daysleeper: . I have to refer to the family trees a lot Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, hurray for the family trees! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Aegnor is the youngest brother. All are older than Galadriel. Aegnor never married. He was in love with the Bëorian woman Andreth, and she returned his feelings, but because it was wartime he did not make his intentions towards her clear, and was killed soon after. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, nice Shawn Daysleeper: . So it seems Earwen's decendants went to exile, and Finarfin alone returned AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The name Aegnor is a Sindarized form of his Quenya name Aikanár or Aikanáro, meaning "Sharp Flame" or "Fell Fire". Only Angrod and Galadriel had children. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . let's see if that helps a bit AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So, in a way Olwe suffered for the transgressions of the Noldor twice over... Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . poor Olwe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . First the kinslaying...then watching his grandchildren go into exile. Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, poor Olwe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So in the 4th Age rp...Olwe seeking the Teleri is very .....poetic? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Do we know what happened to Olwe? as far as Tolkien canon goes, I mean? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Only that he lives and reigns in Alqualonde Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . ah Then it does leave scope! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . at least he was king of Alqualonde the last anyone heard from him AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yeah Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . which was, what? about the time of Numenor? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Some of those grandchildren involved in the kinslaying, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Were they ? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . weren't they in the group that came in late, and didn't know how it started? Shawn Daysleeper: . Fingon and Fingolfin lead the group that came later into Alqua AelKennyr Rhiano nods, but would that have included Olwe's grandchildren? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . probably AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Would they have really attacked Grandpa's home? Rosie Gray giggles Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Weren't they hanging out with their cousins? and that is why they went on? to stay with their cousins AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I believe they went out of a sense of duty to their kin Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . they arrived in the middle of the battle, and had no idea who attacked who, just that their kin were being shot at Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That would be very confusing, when you put it that way {Ilianor has to leave. Goodbyes all around.} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So the group traveling with Fingon and Fingolfin weren't "at fault" in the Kinslaying in the same way the group with Feanor was Shawn Daysleeper: . yes i'd say so AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I would agree with that Shawn Daysleeper: . Elf kills elf Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Just at fault by blood, yeah Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, Teleri killed some Noldor, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . In self defense Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Were the Noldor with Fingon and Fingolfin acting in self defense? Shawn Daysleeper: . The Teleri were winning until Fingon and his group showed up AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But we didn't attack first Shawn Daysleeper: . no Feanor started the attack, after speaking to Olwe. Fingon and his company joined the fight after seeing that his kin were falling. And they thought the Teleri were told by the Valar to stop the Noldor AelKennyr Rhiano: . . which the Teleri would have done, I think Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Probably a more reasonable conclusion to jump to than to think Feanor was trying to steal Teleri ships Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, sorry I just don't remember enough about this aspect AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, there are not a lot of details. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . We are getting into Namo's job: were the Noldor in Fingon's group morally at fault? Shawn Daysleeper: . I am not sure morals of this sort were considered before the Kinslaying Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Although, if they thought the Valar had put the Teleri up to it, does that make a better excuse? There had never been an elf-against-elf battle before Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Why would they think that the Valar would do such a thing though? Shawn Daysleeper: . I don't think the Valar would have risked the Teleri's lives to stop the Noldor AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I do, I can see where they would. I don't think they thought they WERE risking the Teleri. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Can you explain Ael? I'm a bit lost AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think, perhaps, IF the Valar had asked the Teleri to stop the Noldor... It would have been with the thought that, as elves, the Teleri would understand the Noldor better, their wants, desires, motivations. This would have been foreign, perhaps to the Valar. Shawn Daysleeper: . true Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm yes AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But I don't think the Valar would have encompassed that elf would turn against elf. Shawn Daysleeper: . but would they have asked the Teleri to stop the Noldor by force? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I can't imagine that AelKennyr Rhiano: . . No, I think they may have, at the very most, asked the Teleri to restrain their cousins. If that. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Maybe advised against lending them ships AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Definitely that, Lihan. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That would be very different then Shawn Daysleeper nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not that the Teleri would have, in any case AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The Valar could have intervened at any point, remember. And even after the Kinslaying, only issued a warning Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, But that's not usually the case for adventure stories Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What isn't usually the case? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . moderate action ㋡ AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I always think of Eve in the Garden of Eden. She took of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. The Noldor, in a manner of speaking, through their violence, did the same...and everything changed. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . More than "the fruit of knowledge of good and evil" -- the lure was "to be like gods" , to control their own destinies Shawn Daysleeper: . Yes, they ceased to be passive and became more aggressive AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Was that not how the snake tempted Eve? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That's what I meant Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I always imagine that Eve was bored in that garden, and wanted to see things for herself AelKennyr Rhiano: . . To know good and evil...was not that a step towards godlike knowledge Shawn Daysleeper nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So the Noldor exiling themselves is an archetypal story AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Very much Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . A very teenage thing to do, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod nod nod Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Which is maybe the same thing ... it's something humans all go through Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Seems to be, indeed AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod nod nod NOD Shawn Daysleeper: . Ya it happens when they reach middle school Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . and I was just thinking that it's a step towards humanity, that Tolkien was eventually leading us to Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Are you including elves in that "humanity"? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Were the elves supposed to become more human? Shawn Daysleeper: . Could be Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes... Well I didn't mean them precisely. I meant the epic, if that makes sense AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and that is why the Noldor are the heroes of the story? They are doing the epic, archetypal thing AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yeah Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and the Teleri are being the good little children, the Teleri and the Vanyar AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and having no fun! Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . lol and the Sindar AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But you guys have a little adventure Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes certainly Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Sindar get adventure Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . but it all ends badly AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We sit around, sing songs around the campfire, polish our boats, and what...take up knitting? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The Noldor end badly Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hehehhe Shawn Daysleeper: . lol Well, we brush our hair too Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . You could go to Vanyar music festivals. (That sounds so boring.) AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh..oh...We could have riverboat gambling on the docks Shawn Daysleeper: . yeah AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Or form a rock elf group. We have the hair for it. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yes, we know so little about elven music styles. I don't think Aman passed any ordinances against casinos .... hmmm AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh Shawn Daysleeper: . well, all of those gems are still on the beaches... AelKennyr Rhiano pretends to roll dice..."Come on, baby, daddy needs a new set of ...um....elf ears?" I could see Olwe getting into the blues...or hard rock. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . How long did it take to rebuild the Teleri population? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We are never told. Shawn Daysleeper: . I do not think it is clear, yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . A while, I'm sure AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is even confusion on how many children Olwe DID have. Shawn Daysleeper: . wow Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not to mention confusion about Galadriel AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We know about Earwen by name...but in spots, there are mentions of sons. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . early history AelKennyr Rhiano nods. That, too. And Olwe's wife is a complete mystery...There is no mention of a Teleri Queen. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . But Rosie's family tree listed a name for her AelKennyr Rhiano: . . She is not mention by Name in the Silmarillion Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Must have come from some other draft, then. For all the talk about how equal male and female elves were, we sure don't hear much about the women Shawn Daysleeper nods Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I think that was Rajani's family tree she made up of our original players. There were some non-canon names on it Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ohhhh Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . want to see it again? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So maybe some previous Olwe had a non-canon wife Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . maybe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I thought she may have been mentioned in the histories Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Goes back awhile. Rosie Gray gave you Elves Family Tree. See the characters that are non-canon have the asterisks AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But for certain, she is unnamed in the Silmarillion and is nowhere referred to as a Teleri Queen Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Perhaps it was immaculate... errr... immaculate something! rofl AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It was a dark and stormy night.. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . And yes I agree Lihan, not much attention paid to the female elves AelKennyr Rhiano: . . If you look on that family tree Rosie gave us, Napolde is non canon name Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yep Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, that makes more sense Shawn Daysleeper: . I checked some sites, there is a general consensus Olwe's wife was never named Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . She must have been kept in the kitchen, pregnant AelKennyr Rhiano: . . And it is weird because it has a line down to Anaire, as though she were a child of Olwe's, which is decidedly wrong Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmm yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . There may have been some reason she did that. I don't know AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Has anyone ever played Elmo? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not that I remember Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I don't remember anyone Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yeah, who knows what parts were ever assigned, long ago Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . This is from 2 years ago, so things have changed alot. Still, it's somewhat useful AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I don't know who Orodreth is supposed to be? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That's canon AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Oh wait, I do Shawn Daysleeper: . 2nd son of Finarfin Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, he is AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That is wrong. He is in the wrong place on the line. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . supposed to be second son of Finarfin, so, that's correct I think AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no.... the son of Angrod and nephew of Finrod Felagund Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm That's not what it says in my Sil Shawn Daysleeper: . It says in the Silmarillion index he is 2nd son of Finarfin Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yep AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ummm ok Shawn Daysleeper: . also on the family tree: 2nd son AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ok. I'm getting myself confused then, which is not surprising. lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That's easy to do AelKennyr Rhiano: . . sorry, and I probably will confuse myself again Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Interesting to see the family trees entwined like this, isn't it? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . All the royal families intermarrying Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Just like rl. Easy to see the comparison Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And then getting their loyalties all tangled up Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . like Olwe's poor grandkids AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I love this conversation, dear friends, but another matter calls me away Shawn Daysleeper: . so there may not have been a close connection bewteen Olwe's grandkids and Olwe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Thank you for a delight night....:) Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh dear AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps we can talk about the "kids" next time? {Farewells} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Which kids are we talking about next week? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmm, guess we better pick some famous "kids" Shawn Daysleeper: . Much of chapter 5 is a discussion of the kids of the Princes of the Eldalie. So we can continue chapter 5 then? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true,but not very interesting things about them. Galadriel was certainly famous Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . She was. hmmm, but that is jumping ahead quite alot. I dunno Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, there are two totally different stories about how she met Celeborn Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . are there? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In one version, he was from Alqualonde, and the two of them fought on the Teleri side, at the kinslaying Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . oooh Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In another verision, he was from Eregion. I don't think Tolkien ever decided which version to go with. Or he kept changing his mind Shawn Daysleeper: . dramatic difference, wow Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, interesting Shawn Daysleeper: . Celeborn has interested me Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . He's a mysterious character Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Any idea what chapter that would be? Shawn Daysleeper: . I don't see page references by his name in the index Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I see the index of Silmarillion says he is from Doriath, so maybe there are three versions Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Yes, we considered him so. but, hmmm Shawn Daysleeper: . Is there 2 Celeborns? Shawn Daysleeper: . one from Doriath? and the one with Galadriel? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I don't think so.Galadriel was a dear friend of Melian Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . No, Silmarillion says Galadriel stayed in Doriath with Celeborn, p 135 Shawn Daysleeper: . ah ok Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . so maybe this is a good topic! ㋡ Shawn Daysleeper: . k, page 135 Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . maybe it is! Shawn Daysleeper: . cool, he is a very interesting character Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . so, Celeborn and Galadriel for next week? Shawn Daysleeper: . sure Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . sounds good!