Tolkien Discussion Group
August 18, 2010
Topic:Celeborn & Galadriel
Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Shawn Daysleeper
Rosie Gray
Dominique Darkwatch
Lihan Taifun
Summary:
Galadriel was grandaughter of King Finwë and King Olwë, and great-granddaughter of King Ingwë. She is one of many elves described as "the fairest".
Tolkien revised her history many times, and there is no consensus which of the stories he intended as the final, official version.
In one version, Celeborn is a grandson of King Olwë, presumably via the other mysterious children King Olwë sometimes has.
We discussed how the variations in versions of the story affect roleplaying the characters.
Although Professor Tolkien claims that the elves had a fairly gender-neutral society, he himself has trouble writing them that way. Notice that Galadriel's mother calls her "man-maiden" because she is smart and athletic.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . no Lihan this evening?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . No, I think you are stuck with me
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well I think you will do very nicely
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I will try, but I'm no Lihan :) : for which I am sure Lihan is grateful :) lol
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . heheh
Dominique Darkwatch giggles
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . thank you for the excellent notecard. the coles notes of Celeborn & Galadriel. Rosie Gray grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, that was Lihan :)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . ah!
Dominique Darkwatch: hehe...figures
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well it's very useful
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Tolkien referred to Galadriel as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle Earlth" and the "greatest of elven women."
She was a royal Elf of both the Noldor and the Teleri, being a grandchild of both King Finwë and King Olwë, and was also close kin of King Ingwë of the Vanyar through her grandmother Indis. Towards the end of her stay in Middle-earth she was co-ruler of Lothlórien along with her husband, Lord Celeborn, and was referred to variously as The Lady of Lórien, The Lady of the Galadhrim, Lady of Light or The Lady of the Wood. She had a daughter Celebrían.
Galadriel was the only daughter and youngest child of Finarfin, prince of the Noldor, and of Eärwen, daughter of Olwe.
Certainly she was often called the fairest of all the elves...gets it from her Teleri side of the family.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . seems to me there were a few "fairest of all the elves" in Tolkien. heheh
Dominique Darkwatch: hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That does seem to be a common theme.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well I guess we know she was one of the top 10 anyway ㋡
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Galadriel was an eager participant and leader in the rebellion of the Noldor and their flight from Valinor: in fact the "only female to stand tall in those days". As a leader of the Exiles, she was forbidden by the Ban of the Valar to return to the Undying Lands. She was, however, completely separated from Fëanor and his kin, and did not participate in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë.
Dominique Darkwatch: Good for her
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Once in Beleriand, she lived mainly with one of her brothers, Finrod Felagund of Nargothrond, but spent much time at the court of Thingol and Melian in Menegroth.
What is noteworthy about Galadriel is that she was able to peer into the minds of others and judge them fairly.
So telepathy?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . could be
Dominique Darkwatch: The first elf to meet humans communicated thus...until he learned the language
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Is that right?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Celeborn did?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . with telepathy?
Dominique Darkwatch: Geh...Fingold, maybe? Yes...he encounters humans and could read the thoughts that they would reveal to him as of speech
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . is telepathy a skill she received when she started wearing the elven ring?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . looking...you got me on that
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . In the account in Silmarillion, it read to me like she always had it
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ok
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, no, I could be wrong
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm, I never did get a copy of the Unfinished Tales
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . is it in unfinished tales?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . In the Unfinished Tales, there are many accounts of Galadriel and Celeborn.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes I see that
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . One of these highlights a second version of how Galadriel came to Middle-earth. She lived with her mother's kindred in the Telerin port of Alqualondë and there met Teleporno, later known as Celeborn, who would become her husband and co-ruler. Celeborn, by this account, was Olwë's grandson. Galadriel and Celeborn sailed from the West and came to Beleriand separately from the two main hosts of the Noldor (one that Fëanor led in the ships of the Teleri, the other that crossed Helcaraxë). Galadriel was thus not directly involved in the revolt of the Noldorin princes in this version, and indeed fought against them at Alqualondë during the kinslaying; but she fell under the Ban of the Valar because she left the Undying Lands without permission. Once in Beleriand she and Celeborn were welcomed by Thingol and lived in Doriath. Once the Noldor arrived in Beleriand, Galadriel reestablished contact with her brothers. In this version of the story, she is offered a pardon by the Valar, but refused it out of pride and therefore remained under the Ban. In even later accounts from Unfinished Tales, written not long before Tolkien died, Galadriel was not even subject to the Ban, and remained in Middle-earth of her own volition.
In both versions Celeborn plays no important role in the Battles of Beleriand; he and Galadriel left Beleriand before the War of Wrath. They travelled first to Lindon, where they ruled over a group of Elves, probably as a fiefdom under Gil-galad. Later they moved eastward and established (or were welcomed into) the realm of Eregion or Hollin. At this time they made contact with a Nandorin settlement in the valley of the Anduin, which later became Lothlórien. At some point Celeborn and Galadriel left Eregion (where Celebrimbor either had been or now became the ruler) and settled in Lothlórien. According to some accounts, they became rulers of Lothlórien for a time during the Second Age; but in all accounts they returned to Lórien to take up its rule after Amroth was lost in the Third Age.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . ㋡ it's a bit convoluted
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes This is a good example of a writer revising his own literature's history.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . you know, I think this kind of thing is one reason that roleplaying these characters can mean really finessing their characters
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . WE can only guess which version he would have chosen as the "official" one.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . wasn't Unfinished Tales patched together by Christopher though?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes Which makes it unclear if Tolkien really meant for them to ever see light of day.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes exactly, so we should take those references perhaps with a grain of salt. However, when they don't conflict, it's nice to add some details
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think the greatest pitfall in rping literary characters is when you conceive of them as "canon"...because most rpers take that to mean the character and his/her actions are written in stone.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And Tolkien is a perfect example that good literature evolves and changes.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm well I think that's the case with Tolkien
Dominique Darkwatch: So it might be easier playing a character that has scant references ... more freedom to play
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I've always thought so, Dominque. What's the case with tolkien?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . that Tolkien's characters seem to change and evolve
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh yes.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes I agree Dominique. On the other hand, having an existing character with a fairly well drawn timeline and characterstics does also provide a nice framework too. You can think of it that way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always respected Ted's portrayal of Elwe, but I would have chosen Olwe, had I been given the choice. Because I could really claim ownership of the character.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes, well you did!
{Lihan finally suceeds in logging in. Greetings.}
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, I love how Olwe is roleplayed
Dominique Darkwatch smiles: "Olwe has a good player playing him"
AelKennyr Rhiano blushes and smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But you know, I was always curious about the third brother, Elmo...why did he go to Sesame Street.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . it's a valid question!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a great mystery
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, good question
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . perhaps he enjoyed the sing-alongs.Rosie Gray grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Oh, yes, we Teleri love music.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . well, I could tickle him that way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . omg.....hahahah
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was not in the beginning...I had people constantly criticizing how I played him.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh really? I didn't know that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I suppose there are always people who critisize
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . One person got in group chat one night and demand I "marry" and "procreate" or give up the role.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . oh my
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh I think I vaguely remember that. I think that person was just expressing their homophobia. if you will pardon my mentioning it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that is quite all right.
Dominique Darkwatch: I could see where purists might really have strong opinions
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but...what is there to be pure about? when Tolkien himself changed and rewrote threads of the fabric of the story here and there.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . It's 4th age, how can we be pure?
Dominique Darkwatch: I think there is a lot of people who think they know what the professor intended...when in fact he did revise it bebause he was not sure sometimes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I've had a few people whine because Nienna is brown
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . really?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh really?
Dominique Darkwatch: pfft
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well, lol, and that is probably one of the reasons that she is brown!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not a lot, but it has been mentioned to me
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
{The conversation wanders off to looking at other Second Life groups doing Tolkien role play.}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so are you all done with Galadriel and Celeborn?
Dominique Darkwatch: Well...does anyone play Gladriel?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh someone did once
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . no, long long ago
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Not in the 4th Age. I think she would be a challenging character to play. Everyone has their preconceptions of her
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . especially in the First Age!
Dominique Darkwatch: Well, would Galadriel even be in middle earth in the 4th age?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . no, unless she came back for some reason
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I noticed that Tolkien really slipped on his gender-roles of elves, on Galadriel
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . how do you mean, Lihan?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . how so, Lihan?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . she's smart AND athletic, so her mom calls her "man-maiden"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, that's right!
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, I saw that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . as if a smart and athletic child just couldn't be female
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . indeed. Well Tolkien was an old-fashioned man
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . a product of his era
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He was. But he also wrote all those essays about what life was like among the elves, and the essays are nothing like what he actually wrote about them in the stories
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . which essays?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always am leery when people cite his essays
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Laws and Customs of the Eldar, for one
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh I haven't read any of those, didn't know he wrote them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I've only read extracts. Sometimes I wonder whether he read them, after he wrote them, because a number of things don't fit with the way he wrote the elves in his stories
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that is a good question.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . are they published in book form?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not that I know of, just always quoted by other people
Dominique Darkwatch: we've used the extracts here for things not covered in the major books...like when we talked about sex and marriage among elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I often hear purists quote them.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if you wanted to really derail the topic ...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It's not already?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I could mention that Celeborn's name in Quenya is spelled Teleporno, poor guy
{As predicted, this goes downhill fast.}
