Celeborn & Galadriel, part 2

Tolkien Discussion Group August 25, 2010 Topic: Celeborn and Galadriel, continued Present: Rosie Gray Shawn Daysleeper Lihan Taifun AelKennyr Rhiano Summary: It is probably significant that Galadriel gave Gimli three of her hairs, when she had refused to give Fëanor a hair. If Galadriel had asked you what gift you wanted, what would you have asked for? Tolkien apparently introduced Galadriel in Lord of the Rings, and then had to incorporate her into his previous backstory of the universe. Galadriel's personality is more filled-out, as Tolkien characters go. Does Galadriel's connection to water (her mirror) come from her Teleri grandmother? We discuss our experiences of reading Tolkien for the first time. We liked the way Cate Blanchet played Galadriel. We disagree about whether her Galadriel was "creepy." Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, did anyone find anything new about Galadriel this week? Did you get my notecard of excerpts? pretty long reading, and mostly demonstrates that the story is very confused, very contradictory Shawn Daysleeper: . it is interesting that she refused to give Feanor any of her hair, but she gave Gimli some hairs Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, that makes the gift to Gimli very impressive, or very moving Shawn Daysleeper: . it's like she mellows down thru the ages or something Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or she likes the dwarf better than she liked her cousin Shawn Daysleeper: . ya I think that is one of the most moving moments in the LOTR Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and passed over so quickly, easy to miss Shawn Daysleeper: . yes It's amazing how many contradictions there are Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he must have been trying out different versions of the story, and either never decided which he liked, or never wrote down which was the final version. But it certainly makes a very confusing set of notes he left. Glad I'm not Christopher Tolkien, trying to clean out his desk. Awww, no, I'd love to have that job ... Shawn Daysleeper nods. I think it would be fun Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . no matter how confusing Shawn Daysleeper: . well, he published it all Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he published some of it. Maybe with all the later books it comes to most of JRRT's notes. I don't have any of "History of Middle Earth", but that runs volumes and volumes of old notes Shawn Daysleeper: . me either, but I have seen them in the library. They are collections of notes. There's 12 volumes I believe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . wow Sounds about right, though. I've seen them, or some of them, a few years ago Shawn Daysleeper: . so I think he wanted to publish it, in case he interpreted them wrong, the notes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . besides that us geeks would buy anything :) Shawn Daysleeper laughs. I have 3 editions of the LOTR and 2 of the silmarillion. I'm a geek Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . three different editions? Shawn Daysleeper: . ya Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . how are they differnt? Shawn Daysleeper: . one from the '80's I believe, in a boxed set. one with the movie covers, and the 40th anniversary 1 volume book Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . same text? Shawn Daysleeper: . it's all LOTR Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I've heard the newer editions have some corrections Shawn Daysleeper: . oh really? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not sure exactly what Shawn Daysleeper: . there is a new preface in the 40th anniversary single volume. Oops this is the 50th anniversary, sorry Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . 50th anniversary, wow Shawn Daysleeper: . ya There is a notes section Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I wore out 1 1/2 sets of LotR. For years I only owned Two Towers. That would have been a 1970's paperback Shawn Daysleeper: . the notes section details how Tolkein wanted to publish LOTR as a single volume when he first wrote it Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Oh yes, I had heard that. But the publisher didn't think anyone would buy a volume that big. The story does make more sense as one complete story. Shawn Daysleeper: . ok, that is labeled "note on the text". Ok, then there is a section labeled "notes on the 50th anniversary edition". They mention changes in grammar and punctuation. And was written in 2004 {People finish arriving. Greetings.} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, Galadriel and Celeborn. We have decided the story is contradictory. We were just getting back to topic Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . just looking back on what you were talking about Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . assuming anyone has anything to say on topic. Shawn had mentioned Galadriel refusing to give Feanor a hair, but did for Gimli Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . what was the hair for, to Gimli? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . she had given everyone else in the Company a gift, and she asked Gimli what he would want. "What gift would a dwarf ask of the elves?" Rosie Gray nods AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but why a hair? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . what would he do with it? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that's exactly what she asked! Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe Shawn Daysleeper: . he wanted to keep the hair as a memory of her words, at their first meeting Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . where she was so kind and welcoming Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it's rather an odd keepsake, hmmm, but of course the Victorians did that a lot, didn't they Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . what would you ask for? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hmmm I don't know Shawn Daysleeper: . I have no idea Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . neither do I AelKennyr Rhiano: . . among natives peoples around the world Fingernails and hair hold great power. Joseph Campbell himself commented on this emphasis on the power in clippings and hair Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . elves really value hair Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . would be very odd to ask for some nail clippings. Rosie Gray laughs Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . nail clippings just doesn't sound right Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I guess a plait of hair is very sentimental. oh is that right Ael? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . is that because it is a part of the person that comes off easily? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it can stay looking just as it did when it was cut too Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, true Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so you could take it out, and it still has the texture, and colour AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . but it seems like a gift to a lover, or between parent and child, very intimate AelKennyr Rhiano: . . among indigenous peoples it was not uncommon for people of status to bury their clippings and cut hair, if they allowed their hair to be cut, to prevent someone using them to have control over the person. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or burn it maybe? I have that imagine in my mind from somewhere Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . like a voodoo thing AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, that was also done. well, for voodoo, remember, that is a religion, so there is a bit more going on Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes I am aware of that Ael Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . this month's National Geographic it mentions King Tut was buried with a lock of his grandmother's hair Shawn Daysleeper: . because it came from the body Rosie Gray nods AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod no nod yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so, a gift like this to a dwarf, was showing great familiarity Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, quite an honor for Gimli Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and a bit of a slap down to Feanor Shawn Daysleeper: . ya she gives hair to Gimli but not to Feanor, yes Rosie Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . she didn't get to slap down Feanor nearly as much as she would have liked, I think Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so in some versions of the story she was inspired by Feanor's big speech, and in some versions she wasn't even home when he gave it AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . makes it hard to decide on her reaction then Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . either way, she was eager to go to Middle Earth and build herself a kingdom. queendom? AelKennyr Rhiano nods, thoughtfully Shawn Daysleeper: . that does seem to hold true through all the notes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . otherwise it is hard to explain why someone who obviously reveres Elbereth so much would have decided to leave, not to mention refusing to go back, later. The impression I got from Unfinished Tales was that Professor Tolkien introduced her in Lord of the Rings, and then had to figure out how to fit her into the previous history of Middle Earth Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . that would make sense Shawn Daysleeper: . makes sense considering how pieced her background is Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . she's very magical, for an elf AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I noted that, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I am not sure he knew what to do with her. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Noldor -- "High Elven", but not the typical Noldor personality Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . with her magic basic of water and all AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that was her Teleri roots nod nod nod Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes that makes sense, the Teleri connection Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, can all Teleri do that with a bowl of water? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . saves on phone bills AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Shawn Daysleeper: . we could try it out Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well I was just thinking of it as a mystical connection to water AelKennyr Rhiano: . . TT&T: Teleri Telephone & Telegraph Shawn Daysleeper laughs AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or is the last....telepathy? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . lol! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . prototype for the palantiri? Shawn Daysleeper: . provincewide coverage? nationwide? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Teleri Telphone & Telepathy? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol, yes We have the 4th Age network instead of 3G coverage lol Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, with all the apps Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . apps for a bowl of water, uh huh Shawn Daysleeper: . need a swanship, there is an app for that Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡ AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well, instead of "Bing" we have "Splash" Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . brings a new meaning to "Splash screen" AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . seems to me that Galadriel was quite fleshed out, as far as Tolkien goes. He didn't really go in for a lot of character development AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think among the female characters, that is certainly true. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . some of his Silmarillion characters seem well developed Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . you think so? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . comparatively Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well, comparatively, maybe. To me they are epic tales Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not like some authors, for sure Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and the characters are not much more than sketched, until you get to Bilbo and Frodo Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I agree Galadriel is one of the more developed characters Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . come to think of it, I think he must have had a great fondness for hobbits Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hobbits are the heroes of the story Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes the heroes, but also you get more of a feel for their personalities, I think Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, you do Shawn Daysleeper agrees Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and Sam with his rope from Galadriel! (see, almost back to topic) Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ha right! Shawn Daysleeper: . didn't he get a box of dirt also? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true. The rope might have been more "supplies" that were restocked in Lorien, but Sam was very fond of that rope Shawn Daysleeper: . the box of dirt helped him with replanting the shire it seems AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the Silmarillion was a different type story, thought, from the Hobbit and LOTR Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . do you want to elaborate on that thought Ael? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ok The Hobbit was more of an adventure story... Compare, if you will bear with me, "The Adventures of Robin Hood," starring Errol Flynn, as opposed to Laurence Oliver's "MacBeth".Robin Hood is high adventure, some comedy, and in the end good prevails with only a moderate amount of difficulty. That is very much like the Hobbit. AelKennyr Rhiano: . . For example, can you imagine the scene where the dwarves visit Bilbo and they make a disaster of his kitchen...can you imagine that scene... in the Silmarillion? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . noooo Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe nooo! Shawn Daysleeper: . yes I understand there is a difference, but I like how you are explaining it :) Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't think there are any humorous scenes in Silmarillion Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it is a very stern and somewhat sedate accounting Shawn Daysleeper: . it's actually kinda depressing in places Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . but of course, The Hobbit was written for children AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It is almost as heavy as Wagner's opera. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes that's true! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It is more like "The Iliad " or the Aenaid". I think I spelled those right....scratches head Shawn Daysleeper: . I remember reading those AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The characters are archetypes more often than not. They are vehicles for this sweepng saga. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and The Lord of the Rings is almost in between those other two AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . no wonder that the Tolkien writings have been studied so much AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It is an elven "Gone with the Wind". The Characters, except for a chosen few, are very much "stock" characters. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . nearly all are Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well they certainly inspired a lot of other literature, and roleplay Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I think we were at "stock characters", or "archetypes", if you prefer AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There are several archetypes in Tolkien's work Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . to be honest, if I hadn't read Tolkien years ago, I probably wouldn't have much interest in it today. It's completely unlike what I choose to read now Shawn Daysleeper: . interesting thought Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . however, it did make a huge impression on me, when I did read it :P AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Really? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . mmhmmm AelKennyr Rhiano: . . interesting Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . do all of you read fantasy now? Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, when I can AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I have always have eccletic reading tastes, but yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes Rosie Gray nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . do you know what impressed you, in those days? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well just the shear adventure of it, and the magic. I remember very clearly the thrill of fear from the black horsemen Shawn Daysleeper nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh yes Shawn Daysleeper: . yes I remember first reading about the black riders, and not sleeping that night Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yeah AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well they were developed very well as evil Shawn Daysleeper looks embarassed Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I put the book down at the chasm of Moria, and didn't pick it up for another 2 years, it was so scary Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes that was a frightening scene! I couldn't put it down though. Unlike, I have to say, The Silmarillion AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I would sneak a flashlight to bed and read it under the covers after everyone went to bed Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh I did that too Ael Shawn Daysleeper: . lol, ya me too Ael AelKennyr Rhiano: . . :) Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and I would read by the light of the crack in the door to the hallway, which I'm sure is how I ruined my eyes! Shawn Daysleeper: . I opened my shades and used the streetlight at night AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and then I had to go to the bathroom one night after reading one of the scary parts, and as I was tiptoeing down the dark hallway, a cat in heat screamed outside...and I screamed myself...so busted. Shawn Daysleeper: . lol that's awesome Ael Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . awh Ael! hehehe Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hahah, well that is a lesson to parents Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . parents? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes, to let your kids read whenever they want to, even if they are supposed to be going to sleep Shawn Daysleeper: . my parents didn't like my reading of the LOTR AelKennyr Rhiano: . . why, Shawn? Shawn Daysleeper: . they thought it was bad or evil, like witchcraft Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh really Shawn Daysleeper: . I have no idea where they got that from Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . bet they don't approve of Harry Potter, either, then Shawn Daysleeper: . but now they have seen all the films. ya they didn't like it when I was reading it years ago, but now they approve Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I think you are old enough now that they would find it hard to disapprove! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We have some here who are like that about fantasy in general Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . just think that fantasy is evil? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, because it involves fantasical creatures...not God's creation Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes the religious right Shawn Daysleeper: . ya they are rather conservative Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that's a very strict viewpoint Shawn Daysleeper: . yup, one reason why we don't see eye to eye on most things Shawn Daysleeper: . anyways, back to topic [2010/08/25 20:34] Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡: well I have to admit I'm pretty sketchy on the details, as it's been rather a long time since I've read LOTR Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . all the way back to the topic of Galadriel? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yep Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Galadriel with her golden hair Shawn Daysleeper: . well, we got onto the topic of parents not letting their kids read LOTR Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I think Cate Blanchet did an amazing job of playing her, in the movie Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, she was wonderful Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yes, she did Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I liked the way she made Galadriel a little creepy AelKennyr Rhiano: . . She captured her spirit, I thought. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . dangerous Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . did you think she was creepy? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I thought she was ethereal Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ethereal AND creepy AelKennyr Rhiano: . . when she turned down the ring...that part was creepy Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I don't recall that. Why was it creepy? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . when she was talking telepathically to Frodo, that was creepy, too Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . huh, you know I never saw it that way Shawn Daysleeper: . when she was perceiving herself with the ring, she was creepy AelKennyr Rhiano: . . because you realized just exactly what sort of power she was turning down Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the part where she is imagining what she could do with it? Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, wearing the armour and hair flying everywhere. That scene? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hmmm I am just watching that scene. I still don't see it as creepy Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so it affects different people differently Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . magical,: yes I guess. Then she seems kind of mournful Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that makes sense Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3D2FhdLvAYw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3D2FhdLvAYw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . that's rather nice about Galadriel and Celeborn Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . which part is it? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it's not from the movie Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it's a slideshow someone made to a music bed, but using the movie images Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . awww Shawn Daysleeper: . ya this is nice AelKennyr Rhiano: . . :) Shawn Daysleeper: . thanks Rosie, that's great AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, thank you Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh welcome! but there are so many of them! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What is our topic for next week? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . last week we were talking about Mandos AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oooh Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Halls of the Dead AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Nuuuuuuu I won't go! hahahah Shawn Daysleeper laughs. And you didn't! go AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehe Well sounds like a rousing topic! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I may not be caught up on the old discussions, but I am ahead on Mandos.{passes out notecards about Mandos.} Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . excellent! Shawn Daysleeper: . this is awesome, thank you AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the index is so helpful Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes, well sounds good to me! Shawn Daysleeper: . Mandos next week? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Mandos! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Mandos