Tolkien Discussion Group
July 21, 2010
Topic: Beren and Lúthien
Present:
Rosie Gray
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
InyaRay Oktomica
Summary:
There is a lot of "magic" in this story, compared to Lord of the Rings. Luthien growing her hair long, and weaving a sleep-claok from it; Felegund's song-battle with Sauron; Luthien seducing Melkor. Is this because there was more magic in earlier ages? Or simply a storytelling device?
If the magic became less common, or less powerful, with time, what was the reason? The discussion got highly metaphysical. The vibrational energy of angels was mentioned.
We don't know much about the origins or the mechanism of elven magic. It may have been something the elves learned from the Ainur, in Aman. Was Aragorn's skill as a healer a form of magic, in this sense?
We know little about elvish weddings. Legally, all the was required was the agreement of the bride and groom, and them living together. The concern about Thingol "giving" or not giving his daughter's hand seems human-medival rather than elvish.
Is it possible that Beren and Luthien were already "married" by elvish standards, and just didn't tell anyone? Or did they spend all that time alone together in the wilderness chastely? Which is the more romantic possibility?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . This is such a good story
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . The one about Beren and Luthien?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was surprised how much "magic" was in it
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh I'd forgotten that too Lihan
InyaRay Oktomica: magic.. so wonderful
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to re-read it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The elves in Lord of the Rings don't use much "magic", but in Beren and Luthien, they are magicking all over the place. And Felegund's song-battle with Sauron -- that was great (except for Felegund losing ...)
Shawn Daysleeper: With magick you mean her seduction of Melkor?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That was one example. And making the sleeping-cloak out of her own hair
Shawn Daysleeper: Yes I found Beren and Luthien's story to be quite memorable
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . indeed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What was your favorite part?
Shawn Daysleeper: Were characters simply more magical in the 1st age than in the 3rd? My favourite part was that her song seduced the great enemy
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Or was it a storytelling device? "Magic" would have interfered with the plot in Lord of the Rings
InyaRay Oktomica: Perhpas as things evolved there was less magic
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps over time, suspension in the belief in magic occurred and that, in turn, caused magic to become more scarce?
Shawn Daysleeper: or did magic itself degrade?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . good question
Shawn Daysleeper: As elves became less influencial in middle earth?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But did magic originate from the elves themselves?or from the ainur?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I'm not sure how elven magic worked
InyaRay Oktomica: or even from Illuvitar, and then became more it's own thing.. creation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That is a good point, Inya.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Melkor and Sauron, who were Ainur, seemed to have the same KIND of magic as the elves. Whatever that proves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But if the souce is Illuvatar, that would make perfect sense.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And the elves were given access to this kind of power, and humans not?
Shawn Daysleeper: So it would seem
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Humans are not barred.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Maybe some of it is through the intermarriages.You know, as in Luthien bringing some of the Ainur magic to the elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps just not aware?
Shawn Daysleeper: Aragorn had his healing skill
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hmmm wait a sec that doesn't make sense, what I just said. lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It wouldn't explain Felagund
Rosie Gray nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . In the beginning, the elves...were they aware they had use of magic? Or did they come to an awareness over time? Such could be the case for humans
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That would explain Aragorn
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . And it sort of depends on your definition of 'magic' too
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It seems like something they studied, in Valinor
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
InyaRay Oktomica: It would seem that somehow not having magic is the more evolved state
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Can you elaborate, Inya?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . After the passing of the 3rd Age, I could see more humans discovering and harnessing magical abilities.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Oh, yes, please, Inya.
InyaRay Oktomica: just that closer to Illuvitar = more magical
the first born but not after
less and less
not immortal, not magical
why ?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Does "later" always mean "more evolved"?
Shawn Daysleeper: That doesn't explain Aragorn though
InyaRay Oktomica: It was always in the song, so not by chance
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . by more evolved, do you mean just further down the line, Inya?
InyaRay Oktomica: I think there is that in humans that is beyond magic
AelKennyr Rhiano listens carefully
InyaRay Oktomica: Perhaps simple independance, or such. But something, not of Illuvitar .. the beginning of a transcendant existance :) Something, something new
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . wow...
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . interesting
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, very
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . a little too deep for me ... I'm afraid I am lost
InyaRay Oktomica: not of Luthian either .. :)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . can you elaborate Inya, on your thoughts?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, because I find this fascinating :)
InyaRay Oktomica: sorry. I dont know how else to say it :)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . :)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I am not very .. metaphysically minded I guess lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, if you look back at judeo-christian mysticism... angels vibrate at a certain etheral frequency. And when angels "fall from grace" or become more eathbound...
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Does that make it easier for them to fit on the head of the pin? lol, sorry
InyaRay Oktomica: :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . they become "heavier" and vibrate at a lower frequency...actually, yes. :) The lower the frequency, the less connected to the God source. Thus they would lose that which makes them angelic in the first place.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . wow, well that's all out of my depth I'm afraid!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So I think Inya may be saying something similar?
InyaRay Oktomica: yes :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So where does "magic" fit into this?
Shawn Daysleeper: A lot of Prof. Tolkein's stories have origins in ancient judeo-christan belief
InyaRay Oktomica: Magic is of the higher vibratory state
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
InyaRay Oktomica: It is only magic relative to the lower state
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So eventually, over enough centuries Ainur would become mortal, Inya?
InyaRay Oktomica: No. They are what they are
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ah, now I understand what you meant. Rosie Gray grins
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yay
Rosie Gray is sometimes a bit slow on the uptake
Shawn Daysleeper: Me too
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Most of the time I am, too.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So ... does this mean all of Ea is getting more and more detacted from Iluvatar? Lihan Taifun scratches her head
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or more and more mortal
InyaRay Oktomica: It may have been the goal
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and is that one and the same thing?
InyaRay Oktomica: wonderful :) perhaps so
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Why might it have been the goal?
InyaRay Oktomica: That which was outside of space/time wished to create that which is in it. One requires time to be mortal
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well...ummm... There is this idea that one reason we exist is for us to experience God, we have to experience what God is not. in order to know what God is.
Rosie Gray finds this a strange notion, the idea that we would exist to not experience something
Shawn Daysleeper: I thought God was supposed to be in everything
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, it is an idea, one of many
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Is this like "fish don't notice water"? There needs to be a contrast?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, Lihan
InyaRay Oktomica: It is a question, why one should experience mortaltiy
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, it is, with more than one possible answer
Shawn Daysleeper scratches his head
Rosie Gray scratches her head too
Shawn Daysleeper thinks he needs more coffee
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Somehow, we got very metaphysical...blushes...sorry.
InyaRay Oktomica: my fault..
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . we could .... discuss marriage customs of the Sindar?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no, no It is not a fault, Inya. It was very good discussion, I enjoyed hearing it...really.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it is good
InyaRay Oktomica: :)
Shawn Daysleeper: yes it is good
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But yes, may we discuss the Sindar marriage customs?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It was a tangent. We always go off on interesting tangents
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I was just unprepared for such
InyaRay Oktomica: What are these traditions ?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I think the tangents are always interesting
InyaRay Oktomica: customs
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I don't know!
InyaRay Oktomica: lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Tolkiens wrote an essay on "Laws and Customs of the Eldar", but I don't know whether it even applied to the Sindar
InyaRay Oktomica: Eldar.. is that not to mean elves in general ? and Sindar being this.. would I suppose fit that
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Yes I think it would.
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
InyaRay Oktomica: So... :) what are these customs
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . All we really know, I think is that they proclaimed themselves to be a couple and started living together. I think
InyaRay Oktomica: Hardly fits into an essay: "we do" lol
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . true. Makes it hard to have a big splash-up do for a wedding
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, they enjoyed the wedding, as a party
InyaRay Oktomica: I would have expected wondeful ceremonies, all gossamer and light
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Get the whole family together. But, like Rosie said, it wasn't the ceremony that made the legal marriage
AelKennyr Rhiano gave you Tolkien Elvish Sexuality, marriage and parenthood.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I have had this awhile.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . think I gave it to you!
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . omg...you did. yay I remember now!
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . lol Well I didn't write it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . http://www.ansereg.com/warm_beds_are_good.htm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I thought it very strange that there was a serious possibilty of Thingol "giving" Luthien to Curufin without her permission. Well, Thingol wasn't planning on it, but both Luthien and Curufin thought it a possible event
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Sounds very medieval
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . There are always special extenuating circumstances around royal weddings though
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yes, it does sound very medieval
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . It does
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And not what I would have expected for elves
InyaRay Oktomica: politics ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It always sounded like a political marriage. Yes, I agree, Lihan.
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . And was one of my reasons for thinking of the Thingol charachter as I did
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Think of all those fairy-stories where princesses are locked up, until the correct suitor is chosen
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Do we have any examples of political marriages? CAN elves have a loveless marriage?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . It doesn't seem likely, does it?
InyaRay Oktomica: It does not
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . It seems so unlike the way JRRT imagined his elves
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Yes, it's a kind of anomaly, the way that story was written. Must be more to it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, it struck me as odd
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well Earwen's marriage to Finarfin could be construed as political, but there was also love there.
Rosie Gray nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And there is a collolary ... since the official ceremony is not required, were Luthien and Beren actually "married", and just never told Thingol?
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Oh that's interesting
InyaRay Oktomica: so romantic
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Melian said more than once that it was too late, their fates were already entwined
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so tragic
InyaRay Oktomica: It is as if she knew
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Tragic, but so like youngsters to go off and ... not think through the consequences of what they are doing
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . She had the power of foresight, so she probably did know
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And those two spent a lot of time alone together in the wilds, sometimes in great danger, and we are supposed to believe nothing happened? Ok, we are reading this 50 years later, but still ...
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡
Shawn Daysleeper: :)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Well they had a child
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Later they did. After Beren paid off Thingol
InyaRay Oktomica: Perhaps they only kissed and said 'someday'...
Shawn Daysleeper: yeah right
InyaRay Oktomica: :)
Rosie Gray thinks that InyaRay is a hopeless romantic :D
InyaRay Oktomica: It would be so sweet if they did this
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That is the way the story is written ....
InyaRay Oktomica: I knew I liked Tolkien for some reason :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . :)
Shawn Daysleeper: :)
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡ It's a larger than life epic tale, for sure
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod nod nod
Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I'm sure there's more the the Beren/Luthien story that we could discuss.... sorry I am tired this evening
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . awww
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think we have reached a good stopping point. We could continue next week?
