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Wednesday, July 14, 2010

Thingol and Melian

Tolkien Discussion Group
July 14, 2010
Topic: Silmarillion, Chapter 10: Thingol and Melian

Rosie Gray (who plays Queen Melian, in Arda and Fellowship of the 4th Age)
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer (who used to play King Thingol, aka Elwë, or Elu, in Arda)
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano
Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
Ossy Portocarrero
Puma Kawanishi
Ilianor Illios
InyaRay Oktomica

(If you are trying to follow the chat, it helps to know: Ossy = the Maia Ossë, AelKennyr = King Olwë, InyaRay = the Vala Vána, Oromë's wife. We have difficulty staying out of character.)

Ossy told the story of "The Tall and the Maiar".
Rosie discussed what might have attracted Melian to Elwë.

We considered at what point in the story Melian might have created a complete working physical body for herself, as opposed to a visible projection. She would have to give up a lot of Ainu abilities -- like flying -- to live permanently as an incarnated being.

We discussed what Tolkien meant by the comment "Great power Melian lent to Thingol..." Did Thingol actually aquire Maia-like powers? Or does that just mean Melian helped him and gave him good advice?

The passage "And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the children of Ilúvatar that was or ever shall be" is also ambiguous. We know of only one child, Lúthien Tinuviel.

The turning point in Thingol's life was when he asked for the Silmaril, against Melian's advice. His life went downhill from there.

It isn't so unusual for fathers to be overprotective of their daughters.

Elwë and Olwë never saw each other again, after Elwë met Melian.

After Thingol's death, the Sindar drifted apart. Thingol's grandson Dior tried unsucessfully to keep the kingdom together. Menegroth was sacked. Melian returned to Lorien in the Undying Lands, broken hearted. Thingol's sword Aranrúth, however, stayed in the family, and eventually came to the kings of Númenor.

AelKennyr Rhiano: I did have a drow talk about joining us tonight in case we had questions from the last discussions. I hope she can make it.

Fifi Wickentower: And I'm not sure if Shawn knows that Ted was King Thingol and Rosie Queen Melian :))

Lihan Taifun: so where do we start on the story of Elu and Meleian? We all know the story, I think
Fifi Wickentower: Ossy had quite the version, as I recall
AelKennyr Rhiano: nod nod nod
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Lihan Taifun: yes, we could start with Ossy
Ossy Portocarrero: The Tall and the Maiar. It got discontinue because it was too racy for daytime television
Lihan Taifun: Tell us the tale, O bard!
Ossy Portocarrero: Oh geez, I have to remember the whole thing?! So does anyone NOT know the story?
AelKennyr Rhiano raises his hand.
Ossy Portocarrero: ....
Shawn Daysleeper laughs
Rosie Gray raises an eyebrow at Ael
Ossy Portocarrero: You've been there every time I've told it, so put your hand down!
AelKennyr Rhiano puts his hand down.
Rosie Gray: You have a particular version, Ossy?
Ossy Portocarrero: yes
Rosie Gray: I haven't heard it
Ossy Portocarrero: I think Ive just decided to call it "The Tall and the Maiar". Shall I leave out the sordid kissy bits?
Shawn Daysleeper: no
Rosie Gray: hahahha You can gloss over them :D
Shawn Daysleeper: The whole thing :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: I think Shawn is a romantic :)
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Ossy Portocarrero: So... the reason why this story is important is that it involves me.. Ossë. I'm the main character, just keep that in mind.
Rosie Gray laughs
Ossy Portocarrero: Secon.... Ossy Portocarrero glares at Rosie. Secondarily it involves the story of the elves migrating towards Valimar
Rosie Gray winks at Ossy and blows a kiss. ㋡
Ossy Portocarrero: So...We all know the story of the creation of the world. Singing, yada yada, oh no! Ea, and then waiting around playing "Sandbox" until the children of Illúvatar show up

AelKennyr Rhiano: Sandbox?
Ossy Portocarrero: Well, while this waiting was going on, ... sandbox... a small box of sand where you can build things to your hearts content, and then run around and stomp it all down while you pretend to be Godzilla
Eä was our playground, by our I mean the Ainu. We made rivers and mountains and some of us made dwarves... There was a lot of making stuff, like in a sandbox. Sim-city, before there were computers.

So... a particular Valar named Oromë, or "The Hunter" used to run around on his big horse, and just scout the unknown regions of Middle Earth. It passed the time, you know.

Remember, I'm the main character. Ossy Portocarrero clears his throat
AelKennyr Rhiano: uh-huh
Ossy Portocarrero: So, one time as he was ... shush, as he was riding around, he heard this beautiful singing. The only beings to sing, at this point were the Ainu. But this singing was new and different and beautiful. So, he followed the sound and came upon... the first of the Children! The elves!

AelKennyr Rhiano: Yay, Elves!
Ossy Portocarrero: They were all innocent and running about, singing and dancing and having a blast. And he wanted to meet them

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)
Ossy Portocarrero: but before he had seen them, Melkor, who is evil, was pressing rumors on the elves, saying that the hunter's mount was a terrible beast that ATE elves! And that Oromë kidnapped the elves and KILLED THEM! Aiiieee! So... when Oromë strides into the elven settlement, TERROR AND FEAR!

You see, the elves were like babies. Complete cowards. And also very wishy washy.

AelKennyr Rhiano: I remember reading that in the National Elf Inquirer
Ossy Portocarrero: They just couldnt decide on anything.

AelKennyr Rhiano: Hay!
Rosie Gray giggles
Ossy Portocarrero: Ael! Sh!
AelKennyr Rhiano glares
Ossy Portocarrero glares back.The eleves were terrified

Shawn Daysleeper: awwww
Ossy Portocarrero: But Oromë mananged to calm them down enough to tell them about Valimar

Rosie Gray: poor dears
Ossy Portocarrero: Valimar is like the Emerald City of Eä, except even better. The Ainu live there and its all goodness and honey and light and magical candy stores that are free and also pudding.

Fifi Wickentower: and cake
Ossy Portocarrero: But the elves didn't trust Oromë, (they were still afraid of his elf-eating horse) but after much debate, they decided to send... yes cake, to send their leaders with Oromë to see this Valimar.

Shawn Daysleeper: pudding mmmm
Ossy Portocarrero: So the leaders three of these kindgoms got together and went with Oromë and saw Valimar, so they could make everyone else believe. Elwë and Olwë, the leaders of the Teleri went. And 2 other kingdom leaders.

But this trip takes FOR-FREAKING-EVER! because the elves are new and keep going "Oooh Ahh Look at that! This is very Pretty! I wonder if I can get this back home!! etc, and slowing down the party

Lihan Taifun: So, elves live forever, what's the hurry?
Rosie Gray: ha
Ossy Portocarrero: ... the hurry is, Oromë has shite to do and places to ride around on his horse. And ... look Im telling the story ok? This is just how it is
AelKennyr Rhiano: We were tourists!
Ossy Portocarrero: ANYWAY
They get to Valimar and they LOVE IT. Its FIERCE darling, FIERCE. So they HURRY back and tell everyone all about it, about the pudding particularly.

Shawn Daysleeper: yes :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: and cake. AelKennyr Rhiano nods at Fifi
Fifi Wickentower: nom
Ossy Portocarrero: So... not everyone wants to go, because like I said, wishy washy elves. They are promised candy and lollipops and pudding... and cake, and they're not convinced.

But still, most of them go, and start heading west.

They couldnt go through the pass they went with alone with Oromë. There's too many of them. So they decided to go by the sea.

So they're walking around, and its all honky and dory, and they get to the sea and the Teleri are SO impressed... well... they practically wet themslves

... Now, while all this traveling is going on .. . Elwë, the tallest elf and eldest brother of Olwë... is obsessed with Valimar. Along the trip, he would sometimes just pick up and go, back on to Valimar, all on his own. WITHOUT telling anyone. He just walks off into the woods, any odd time, and wanders over there.

There is this Maia Melian, who is all about music. Music music music! Singing and singing like forever. And she sings so well, whenever she sings, everyone in Lorien STOPS what they are doing and just runs over to hear her sing, Ainu, animals, I mean.. you name it. She sings SO pretty that the birds love her and flutter around her endlessly, and she teaches them songs.
So she's doing the "Sleeping Beauty" thing, you know, walking around the woods, singing to the birds, pretending that her true love will come, hitting those high notes. And who should walk upon her but Elwë... he is very tall, he can see her through the branches. So he stumbles into the clearing and he looks at her, and she sings a littlemore and then looks at him and they both just... stand there ... looking at each other.

And then they reach out one hand... and walk towards each other. And while theyre making googly eyes at each other, every thought ever runs out of Elwës mind. He completely loses track of what he was doing where he was going and of his people...Suddenly, their hands touch, a burst of powerful romantic music crescendos! They look into each others eyes and then... time stops (for them).

They stand there, holding hands, like statues, while little birds flutter around them for years and years and years, pooping on them.

AelKennyr Rhiano: Euuu
Shawn Daysleeper laughs
Ossy Portocarrero: So! Back to the Teleri.


But they have to keep going... Oromë is leading them to the waters edge! ... so... the few Super Elwë Fanatics (c) stay behind and spend the next many years looking for Elwë. They come to be known as "The Forgotten"

AelKennyr Rhiano turns to Ted....We DID try to find you, but you had the only map!
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)
Ossy Portocarrero: yeah, jerk
Rosie Gray laughs
Ossy Portocarrero: So....
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Whatever happened to Elmo?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Yeah!
Ossy Portocarrero: the non Elwë fanatics decide to make Olwë king and head off to the beach for the kegger
Fifi Wickentower: He moved to Sesame Street?
AelKennyr Rhiano: hahahahaha
Ossy Portocarrero: Hes a speed junky. Thats why he laughs so much.
Rosie Gray: :D
Lihan Taifun: He's your brother, you were supposed to watch him
AelKennyr Rhiano: Me? Elwë was the Eldest!
Ossy Portocarrero: focus! The main character is about to come into the story! Ossy Portocarrero claps his hand. Ossy Portocarrero: People! focus!
Shawn Daysleeper focuses
Ossy Portocarrero: ok so!So, Oromë summons Ulmo! Who is my boss. He's a great guy, good benefits

AelKennyr Rhiano: Good looking, I hear...
Shawn Daysleeper nods
InyaRay Oktomica thinks Oromë is most gorgeous
Ossy Portocarrero: He pops out of the water, all sea foamy and stuff and says in his voice as deep as the ocean, like the sound of many waves and says "Hey what's up Hunter, how's it going buddy?"

AelKennyr Rhiano smiles at Inya
Ossy Portocarrero: And in this ancient mystic language of the Ainu, Oromë replies, "Nothing much, man, hows it hanging?" And Olwë {editor: read "Ulmo"} says, in all seriously "Good man, the waves are killer!"

And then Oromë gets to the point and says "Hey listen, these guys here, they are elves", and meanwhile the elves are all terrified because a giant sea dude just came out of the water so they are freaking out and running around like headless chickens and Olwë sings to them with water music and they all calm down. Once the hyperventillating is over they all decide "yeah ok, lets get over to Valimar". So, Ossë... (the main character) has this awesome island

AelKennyr Rhiano mutters, "I never mean, my singing CALMED people?"
Ossy Portocarrero: Its just a little off the coast there and it was made during a battle with Melkor
not Olwë, sorry Ulmo. ULMO sings. Your calming makes peoples ears bleed. Your SINGING.... Ive lost my mind. Ossy Portocarrero coughs
AelKennyr Rhiano slinks down in his seat
Lihan Taifun: That's what the elves say about the Valinorian language, too
AelKennyr Rhiano: That it makes people's ears bleed?
Lihan Taifun: yes
Ossy Portocarrero: ANYWAY
MY ISLAND IS AWESOME. Its my home away from home, because I hate my wife and she gets on my case a lot

Ossy Portocarrero: but Ulmo decides ... heh... but Ulmo decides to Uproot my island and drag it over like a boat and make the elves get on and then uses that take them to Valimar

InyaRay Oktomica: Who is this so bad wife ?
Fifi Wickentower: and meanwhile?? what about the gazing into each others eyes forever?
Ossy Portocarrero: but when Oromë used his horn to tell people to get on "Toot Toot, ALL ABOARD!" the Teleri were still way the F' over there... because they were delayed by Elwë and all that nonsense

LETS NOT TALK ABOUT MY STUPID WIFE! Ossy Portocarrero coughs, blushing
Yes yes I'm getting to that!
AelKennyr Rhiano: I like her...she's nice, Inya.
Ossy Portocarrero: ..... traitor
AelKennyr Rhiano: Very agreeable.
Lihan Taifun: She has more sense than Ossë, is the problem
AelKennyr Rhiano: heh heh
Ossy Portocarrero: So when the Teleri get to the beach, the other elves ... I'm talking here!
Rosie Gray is trying to remember who she is
Lihan Taifun: Uinen
Rosie Gray: oh yes thanks
Puma Kawanishi: :)
Rosie Gray smiles and remembers how lovely and sweet Uinen is
Ossy Portocarrero: The teleri are too late. The other elves are already hlf way to Valimar on my island... Ossy Portocarrero sobs. My lovely island

AelKennyr Rhiano nods in agreement
Ossy Portocarrero: You're all traitors. I'm done with the story :\
AelKennyr Rhiano: awwhhh
Shawn Daysleeper: poor Ossy
InyaRay Oktomica: It was wonderful
Rosie Gray: clap clap clap
Fifi Wickentower: there there Ossy
Shawn Daysleeper claps
Ossy Portocarrero: .....
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Very entertaining. :~)
AelKennyr Rhiano: and original!
Ossy Portocarrero: and Elwë wakes up and is part Valar and him and Melian wake up and have a million babies which are the tallest and most beautiful of the elves, even taller than Olwë.


AelKennyr Rhiano: Hey!
Ossy Portocarrero: HAH!
Rosie Gray: hahhah
Shawn Daysleeper: haha
Ossy Portocarrero: TRAITOR! TAKE THAT
AelKennyr Rhiano: hahahaha
Puma Kawanishi smiles
InyaRay Oktomica: I did not know of all these tall bablies Rosie
Fifi Wickentower: Are they not the start of Elrond and that branch?
Rosie Gray tries to remember all the babies. Maybe it's the birds!
AelKennyr Rhiano: I'm an uncle to a lot of neices and nephews?
InyaRay Oktomica: baby birds.. so sweet
Fifi Wickentower: and what about the fabled Menegroth?
Ossy Portocarrero: who are taller and prettier than you Ael
InyaRay Oktomica: not
AelKennyr Rhiano: well, that's easy.
Shawn Daysleeper: haha
Ossy Portocarrero: those birds are replicating...
Rosie Gray: alas, poor Menegroth has been sacked
InyaRay Oktomica: It lives in the minds of those fortunate enough to have seen it
Fifi Wickentower: but for so very long it endured and grew and . .

Puma Kawanishi: What can you and Ted add to the story, Rosie? ....I figure playing those characters for so long, you have some good insights
AelKennyr Rhiano: What attracted Melian to Elwë?
Ossy Portocarrero: I think your birds are fighting with each other Meilian
Rosie Gray: I think that Melian was tired of being a spirit and wanted some passion ㋡
Ossy Portocarrero: pure animal attraction
InyaRay Oktomica: 1000 babies worth
Puma Kawanishi nods
Rosie Gray: hahhah
AelKennyr Rhiano: that's alot of passion..
Rosie Gray: no just one baby, the lovely Luthien
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~D
Rosie Gray settles into her seat
AelKennyr Rhiano: Not the 1000 babies...blushes...I
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: the loveliest of all the elves that were or ever will be.
Lihan Taifun: and, as Fifi said, an ancestor of all sorts of important people
InyaRay Oktomica: it sounds like a poem .. :)
Rosie Gray: actually it's kind of a good question, what did Melian see in Elwë
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rosie Gray: he was rather vain and quick to temper
AelKennyr Rhiano: What would an Ainu see in an elf?
Puma Kawanishi: Any number of things..... :)
Rosie Gray: well no, not just any elf, this particular elf
Ossy Portocarrero: He was really tall. He could reach the things on the high shelves for her
Rosie Gray: It's true he was really tall
InyaRay Oktomica: This is nice.. but not enough
Fifi Wickentower: What stopped the 'besotted' enchantment?
Ossy Portocarrero: They both had to pee?
Rosie Gray: ha. Do Ainu have to pee?
Fifi Wickentower: if years and eons passed . .
InyaRay Oktomica: never
Rosie Gray: :D
Ossy Portocarrero: .... so they peed while they stood there? thats just.... really romantic
Fifi Wickentower: I personally don't
InyaRay Oktomica: This tradtion started perhaps with dwarves

Ossy Portocarrero stares at Ted
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)
Ossy Portocarrero: Wow.. he really does look like a really tall brother of Ael... thats amazing
AelKennyr Rhiano: Stop with the tall!
Ossy Portocarrero laughs. Make me
Shawn Daysleeper: He's taller
Fifi Wickentower: Ael is tall
Ossy Portocarrero: Ted is taller

Lihan Taifun: When did you take on a true physical body?
Rosie Gray: well I've been thinking that if Elwë fell in love with Melian by the sight of her, she must have taken on a physical body before that
Fifi Wickentower: I thought it was her song?
Ossy Portocarrero: Yes but he could see her, or he wouldnt be awe struck at the sight of her
AelKennyr Rhiano: What did draw Elwë?
Rosie Gray: yes, both I think
Fifi Wickentower: nods
Rosie Gray: They stared into each others eyes for an eternity
InyaRay Oktomica: She was drawn by what she saw in his eyes perhaps..
Lihan Taifun: It could have been a fana, an illusion-body, at first
Shawn Daysleeper: The song drew Elwë
Ossy Portocarrero: Elwë was drawn by her song and her sexy good looks
Rosie Gray: an illusion-body? interesting idea
Puma Kawanishi: The Ainur walked the face of Middle Earth in physical forms, long before Elwë saw Melian
Ossy Portocarrero: She was probably very 'alien' and we all know what an excitement 'exotic and foreign' can be
Rosie Gray: a projection!
Lihan Taifun: something for the Children to see, but not a complete, working, physical body. Ainur frequently only use illusion-bodies
Rosie Gray: indeed
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. Melian must have been watching Elwë for a long time. yes
Rosie Gray: but then she must have created a complete working physical body, or there would have been no Luthien
Puma Kawanishi: hmmm Yes, that's true, Rosie
Lihan Taifun: Obviously, by the time Luthien was born, she had the details worked out!
Ossy Portocarrero: Well she had centuries of staring to get the organs down right, while he was all googly eyed staring at her romantically. She was scanning him for organ construction and replicating them ... SHES A BORG, KILL HER!
AelKennyr Rhiano: lol
Ossy Portocarrero: no? ... just me?
Fifi Wickentower: umm - -wrong scenario?
Ossy Portocarrero: ok nvm. Ossy Portocarrero shrugs helplessly
Puma Kawanishi: What about Oromë and his hunters?
AelKennyr Rhiano: Who would Oromë would have patterned his form on...just from watching the elves? or did the Ainur remember something from the Song of Creation?
Lihan Taifun: hmmm
Puma Kawanishi: I would think they would remember the Song
Lihan Taifun: probably so
Ossy Portocarrero: yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: And the coming of the Children...that was part of the song...
Rosie Gray: oh yes

Rosie Gray: where were we?
Ossy Portocarrero: Borg?
Shawn Daysleeper: ya borg
InyaRay Oktomica: Deciding why you fell in love each with the other
Rosie Gray: right... it's a good question
InyaRay Oktomica: Tallnes, beauty and eye-gazing were mentioned
Rosie Gray: I don't think that was ever fully developed as a theme
AelKennyr Rhiano: In Christian mythologies...when an angel falls in love with a mortal...there are consequences for the you think there were for Melian, too? Things she did not anticipate?
Rosie Gray: oh yes I think so
Rosie Gray: She took on elven form for all the years they were together
AelKennyr Rhiano: Like his mortality?
Rosie Gray: which would mean giving up flying, for one thing!
Ossy Portocarrero: and gave some of her power to him for his ... rise so they could meet in the middle. And not just in the abdomen, I mean like.. peer power wise.
Rosie Gray: I am not sure about that Ossy
InyaRay Oktomica: Did she never leave at night as a spirit just to fly ?
Ossy Portocarrero: It was said he got Maiar like powers
AelKennyr Rhiano: yes, I do remember that
Ossy Portocarrero: ... and the only thing between that and elfdom was years of holding hands with you and staring.
Rosie Gray: hmmm I don't remember that
Ossy Portocarrero: .... soooo... I'd say.... P-Tow!
InyaRay Oktomica: it is most tragic to give up flying
Puma Kawanishi: What I remember about that was that it occurred because of the 'magic' she taught him
Rosie Gray: I would think so
AelKennyr Rhiano: "Great power Melian lent to Thingol..."
Rosie Gray: I took that phrase to mean that she used her powers for Thingol's benefit
InyaRay Oktomica: I would give up flying for Oromë
Rosie Gray: so I guess it's an interpretation
InyaRay Oktomica: so I understand .. .
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well..from what I remember Tolkien wanted some backround to his Luthien and Beren tale that he fancied for himself and his wife. I supposed he just worked the story back from there.
AelKennyr Rhiano: But it could also mean what Ossy was saying too
Rosie Gray: It could. I'd never thought of it that way myself
Ossy Portocarrero shrugs. Its just what I took from it.

Rosie Gray: In a few places it talkes about how Melian's gifts of foresight were used to try and help Thingol, although he didn't listen, always. And to tragic end
Ossy Portocarrero: I remember it saying almost clearly that he was granted power, Let me look one sec
Lihan Taifun: rather cryptic wording
Rosie Gray: He was already a powerful elven King, which is no small thing

AelKennyr Rhiano: What did happen to Elmo?
Rosie Gray: he's the one up in the right hand corner holding a Pepsi :D
AelKennyr Rhiano: hahaha

Ossy Portocarrero: ok here I found it
Rosie Gray: okay let's hear it
Ossy Portocarrero: and they were amazed; for fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar, his hair as grey silver, talest of the children of Iluvatar; and a high doom was before him

Maybe he just looked Maiar and I misunderstood.. o.o
AelKennyr Rhiano: I agree with Lihan...the wording is kinda vague.
Rosie Gray: yes it is vague
Ossy Portocarrero: It seems to imply he has now Maiar powers
Rosie Gray: So depends on your interpretation
Ossy Portocarrero: because later it says.. let me find it
Rosie Gray: Ted did you ever have thoughts of Elwë gaining some Ainu powers?
Ossy Portocarrero: ok found it
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: hmmmm... yes, in things like strategy; keeping the Sindar safe and dealing with others. hmm... good advice i guess
Lihan Taifun: You certainly had one of the safest kingdoms
AelKennyr Rhiano: Ossy, what did you find?
Ossy Portocarrero: Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great among the Eldar; for he alone of all the sindar had seen with his own eyes the trees in the day of their flowering and king though he was of Umanyar, ... blah blah blah... And of the love of Thingo and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the children of Iluvatar that was or ever shall be
Ossy Portocarrero: I always took that to mean many children, but it could mean many descendants xD Thats why I said "a million kids".
Rosie Gray: nope, only one child that we know of
Fifi Wickentower: and it was the Light that he saw on Melian face that drew him to be entranced
Rosie Gray: although Phoenix seemed to find reference of another, a boy, in one of the forgotten tales
Lihan Taifun: or the (one) fairest of all elven children ever
Ossy Portocarrero: still... they keep talking about him being powerful and the line of your descendeants having power greater than all the elves
InyaRay Oktomica: To find love and create the most beautiful of children.. how wonderful
Rosie Gray: yes that's right... the line of Luthien Tinuviel

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Exactly! well.... I always thought that the key was fear of change. Thingol didn't want Luthien to change so he put her in a treehouse. The Silmaril changed him to become more greedy.
Rosie Gray: yes! He was quite mesmerized by the Silmaril
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rosie Gray: and all that business about locking up the daughter was all about jealousy
InyaRay Oktomica: oh poor Luthian... locked up by whom she loved
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. That's what makes it such a great tale. So much social significance :~)

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. slaying orcs in heaps is a good start but power of destruction does not make a kingdom safe from within or allow it to grow ;~)
InyaRay Oktomica: so wise king
Rosie Gray: indeed
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. so the wisdom is the gift of foresight from Melain :~D
Fifi Wickentower: ahhh
Rosie Gray: That's how I read it. Because there are references to how she councils him not to take the Silmaril, that doom awaits. But he ignores her advice, and ends up dead. :-(
Lihan Taifun: So that was really his turning point
Fifi Wickentower: nods :(
Rosie Gray: poor Elwë
InyaRay Oktomica: Always the temptations
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. I always played it that Thingol was making a secret wedding gift for luthien but... the dwarves had other plans
Rosie Gray: ㋡
Fifi Wickentower: *grins*
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: But see! if he had just told everone instead of keeping it a secret it would have ended the story. hahah

Fifi Wickentower: would you say that your personal interpretations meshed well?
Rosie Gray: with each others?
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: mine with Rosie?
Fifi Wickentower: I mean between the two characters
Rosie Gray: We didn't really discuss it that much, to be honest!
Fifi Wickentower: Did it seem a natural flow?
Rosie Gray: oh yes, surprisingly, it did!
Fifi Wickentower: so you didn't sit down and analyze the roles?
Rosie Gray: No we didn't. Well, I analysed mine
AelKennyr Rhiano waits for Rosie to elaborate
Fifi Wickentower: or Ted to comment
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Who wouln't love such romantic and sensational character to play? I think Thingol and Melian are the best of the Sil
Rosie Gray: I think in some ways it was a simple story... one seen the world over
InyaRay Oktomica: It has such drama
Rosie Gray: Wise woman tries to guide impatient husband. Rosie Gray winks
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. has a bit of Midas in it. fantastic!
Rosie Gray: and fend off the bad guys in defense of her children, in this case the Sindar elves
Lihan Taifun: Midas? how so?
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Yep. good stories have challenges. We know the heros and heroines overcome them, but how is what's important.
Rosie Gray: yes how so Midas Ted? Trying to turn everything to gold? or mithril
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Oh just the parts about being greedy and asking too much.You know, be careful what you wish for
Rosie Gray: I always saw Elu as a somewhat dark character
AelKennyr Rhiano: how so?
Rosie Gray: mistrustful of strangers, jealous,: hoarding his gold and his treasure underground. Not evil, just... seeking his own purpose. And that Melian was there to try and guide him, to help the elves. Almost as if the Ainu had sent her on a mission
Lihan Taifun: I always laugh when people say elves can't live underground
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Well.. I'd like to play it off that... maybe he was about to have a 500 year jubilee but... the dwarves had other plans. Oh. thats a great insight Rosie! ;~)
AelKennyr Rhiano: I wonder if he ever thought about the brother to whom it fell to guide the rest of the Teleri.
Rosie Gray: indeed! the sundering of the elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: I don't think they everysaw each other again.
Rosie Gray: I don't think so either
Shawn Daysleeper: No I don't think they saw each other again
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: sigh. yes seems like there was always something going on. Too busy to even write.
Rosie Gray: There where enemies to vanquish, and daughters to keep safe
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: or... Tolkien ran out of paper!
Rosie Gray: and then those pesky little humans showed up, with their big ideas
InyaRay Oktomica smiles
Lihan Taifun: And the daughters were just as opinionated as their mothers
Rosie Gray: :D
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: pesky humans....hahaha An elf and HUMAN! NEVER!
Rosie Gray: making off with the lovely Luthien!
Lihan Taifun: not like an Maia and an elf, not at all. But then Melian wasn't as strongly opposed to Beren as Elwë was
Rosie Gray: no she wasn't!
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: good point!
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rosie Gray: Must of been the case of nobody is good enough for my little girl, from Elu's point of view
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: exactly
AelKennyr Rhiano: typical daddy response
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yep
AelKennyr Rhiano: I feel the same about Earwen
Rosie Gray: awh
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: :~)
Rosie Gray: See, mother's are much more practical, except in the case of their sons!
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: hahahaaaaa
Rosie Gray: just as well that Melian didn't have a son, I guess

AelKennyr Rhiano: What happened after Elwë died?
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Everything sort of went down hill.
Rosie Gray: The Sindar wandered I think
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes.
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
Rosie Gray: Menegroth was plundered, sacked
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: Dior tried to bring back the glory but... yes.
Rosie Gray: yes poor Dior.It was too much

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: It was indeed.

AelKennyr Rhiano: and Melian?
Rosie Gray: Melian drifted off back to Lorien with a broken heart, and Luthien's line went on

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: oh and I just read this; Aranrúth - King's Ire, Thingol's sword. In History of Middle-earth, Vol. XII, p.376 a stem, RUTH, is given with the sense "scar, score, furrow" It is worth noting that this was also the sword of the Kings of Númenor and very likely Ar-Pharazôn had it with him when he assaulted Valinor, where it was presumably buried with him.   Interesting

Lihan Taifun: So the sword was passed down, and came to the kings of Numenor?
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes.
Rosie Gray: It's a very romantic, and epic story
Lihan Taifun: That's amazing
Shawn Daysleeper: ya
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yep. epic all around!
Shawn Daysleeper: I'm suprised Ar Pharazon would use an elvish sword
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: well.. it was a hell of a sword! Why not? haha
Shawn Daysleeper: I know, but i thought he hated all things elvish
Lihan Taifun: If he even knew its origins
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. hmmmm... good point!
Shawn Daysleeper: ya it's an epic
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: I know quite a bit about that sword. I was making it :~) I made the sculptie and the texture and all the spellfire stuff but.. never had time to assemble it.

AelKennyr Rhiano: This was an excellent discussion tonight. I enjoyed it very much. Thank you two for being here...
Shawn Daysleeper: yes it was :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: What do we discuss next week?
Lihan Taifun: yes, what for next week?
Rosie Gray: How about Luthien? and Beren?
AelKennyr Rhiano: That would be cool
Shawn Daysleeper: yes sure
AelKennyr Rhiano: Would you all like to do that?
Lihan Taifun: Luthien? That is another dramatic story!
Rosie Gray: it is!
Shawn Daysleeper: yes
Rosie Gray: and Beren's story is too
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: yes. I'd be interested. I'll come if Im not too busy but...haha. indeed. always 10 or more projects going on.
Fifi Wickentower: We like to talk things out until we feel complete lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: So that would be like Chapter 10 in the Simarillion, if someone wanted to read up?
TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer: very good! I was going to leave an hour ago. I'm very glad I didn't