Quenya Lesson 2 continues

< Lesson 2 repeats  

Updated Version January 2013

Present:

Lihan Taifun (teaching)

AelKennyr Rhiano

Rajani Milton

Review:

Last session we established there is nothing corresponding to "a"/"an".

"The" is often left out, but if you do use it , for emphasis, the word is "i".

THE Forest (i-taurë), as opposed to any old forest (taurë)

Before a noun starting with a vowel, “the” is sometimes “in-”. Tolkien didn't leave a lot of examples, or explanation. Using “in-” before a vowel wouldn't be wrong.

     in-Anar     The Sun

Using “i” with a verb, to mean “the one who is doing” is somewhat idiomatic.

     i-anta     the one who is giving

Ignore this construction, if you find it confusing.

“Á” makes a statement into a command. So “á” means something like “Do it!”. “Áva” means “don't do it.”

     Á holta fenda!         Close (the) door.

     Áva holta fenda!     Don't close (the) door.

     Áva anta Belenosen sikil!     Don't give Belanos (a) knife.

     Á anta Belenosen míri.         Give Belanos (the) jewels.

We will discuss this more in the lesson on verbs.

Plurals end in -r or -i.

     Á holta fendar.     Close all the doors.

(These are the plurals for nominative and accusative case – in modern Quenya . They work for subjects and direct objects.)

There are no stand alone possessive pronouns...instead you have endings you add to a noun.

     Á anta lassenya Olwen.     Give my leaf to Olwë.

     Á anta lasserya Olwen.      Give Olwë his leaf. (or “Give her leaf to Olwë.)

     lassënya (my leaf) is the same word as lassenya, since the ë is just marked so that English speakers will remember that the e is never silent.

Based on the few examples Tolkien left, people believe that, for words ending in a consonant, use “-inya” for “my”, and “-elya”, “-etya”, “-elda”, “-erya”, “-elta” for the other possessive pronouns.

     Anarinya       “My Sun”, a word Tolkien used

     Tilioninya     my Tilion

However, you would probably use an affectionate contraction in that last example, and make it Tilionya, when speaking to him. It would still be Tilioninya when speaking about him to someone else.

Using -ya for his/her/its would be common but sloppy – something you might hear on the playground, but would get marked down for writing on your homework. That is probably a case of consonants (especially r) getting softened when spoken.

<<<•>>>

What is the correct Quenya word for “queen”?

     Tar             High King (used by the kings of Númenor)

     Tari            High Queen

     Elentari     Star Queen, a title of Varda

     Aran           (local) king

There is no record of a female counterpart to “aran”, and it is not at all clear what a female version would be. Possibly “arani” or “aranil”, but that is wild speculation.

> Lesson 3    

Quenya Lesson 2 repeats

< Lesson 2 the first time    

Updated Version January 2013

Present:

Lihan Taifun (teaching)

Carleen Luckstone

Rajani Milton

AelKennyr Rhiano

Look briefly at the list of “Quenya Words You Might Already Recgonize.”

Q: “Who are the 'High Elves'”?

Tolkien's “High Elves” (“Eldar”) Are the Elves who, in the very early years, accepted the Valar's invitation to move to the Blessed Lands of the Far West. Those were the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri clans. Of those, some (from the Noldor clan) returned to Middle-Earth at the beginning of the First Age and were a driving force in the history of Middle-Earth.

Quenya is the native language of the High Elves.

Some Elves, like Legolas' clan (“Green Elves”), never went on that journey. Some, like the Grey Elves (“Sindar”) of Doriath, started but got sidetracked.

The native language of these Elves is Sindarin, a daughter language (but grammatically very different) from Quenya.

By the Third Age, there are very few “High Elves” left in Middle Earth.

Elves of Middle Earth generally speak Sindarin for everyday use. Many elf groups in Second Life speak a “fantasy elvish” language, which borrows a few words from Tolkien.

Alqualondë is populated by Teleri, who are among the High Elves of the Blessed Lands. Here in Alqualondë, we pretend that everyone is speaking Quenya.

A good source for authentic Quenya phrases:

http://www.realelvish.net/quenyaphrasebook.php

Repeating from an earlier post:

So, who speaks which language?

  •  All Elves in Aman at all times in history speak Quenya. This includes Fellowship of the Fourth Age Alqualondë.

  •  From the middle of the First Age on, all Elves in Middle Earth speak Sindarin (or closely related local languages) as their everyday language.

  •  Descendants of noble families of Noldor (Galadriel, Elrond ^[1]) also know Quenya, and use it for matters of history and song.

  •  In Third/Fourth Age, well-educated Human descendants of Númenoreans (Aragorn, and nobles of Gondor) would have learned both Quenya and Sindarin, though they would use Westron (“Common”) as their everyday language.

^[1] Correction 10/19/2011: Elrond was not himself Noldor. Both his late boss Gilgalad and his late wife were Noldor, and Elrond certainly knew Quenya.

<<<•>>>

A Quenya sentence nearly always has fewer words than the English translation, because a lot of the meaning is incorporated in word endings. Also, because so much of the meaning is carried in word endings, the order of words in a sentence is less critical than in English.

<<<•>>>

Quenya has no word for “a” or “an”, and seldom uses the determiner for “the”.

"Cut an apple" and "cut the apple" both come out the same: just "cut apple".

     Á rista orva!             cut (an/the) apple!      

á (do it!) rista (cut) orva (apple)

     Á holta fenda!          close (the) door!      

á (do it!) holta (close) fenda (door)

      Á ulya limpë!           pour (the) wine!     

á (do it!) ulya (pour) limpë (wine)

     Olwë ulya limpë.      Olwe pours the wine.

Using the word for “the”gives special emphasis: The Book, The Forest , as opposed to just a book, a forest.

The word for “the” is “i” (often transcribed with a hyphen “i-”).

     parma     a book           i-parma     The Book

     taurë        a forest         i-taurë        The Forest

The Drunken Swan (tavern), as opposed to a drunken swan. (“Alqua” is “swan”. Sorry, we don't know an authoritative Quenya word for “drunken”.)

Tengwar writing doesn't have capital letters.

(Sometimes “i” becomes “in” or “'n” before a word starting in a vowel; Tolkien did not give enough examples for us to tell when this happens, or whether it is only a matter of the author's mood.)

<<<•>>>

Quenya has several different kinds of plurals.

English has only “singular” (one) and “plural” (more than one) forms.

Quenya has “singular” (one),

     basic plural (“all the ~”, “~ in general”),

     partitive plural (“some ~”, “a group of ~”),

     “the (subgroup of) ~ previously mentioned”,

     and dual (“a pair of ~”).

For the near future, we will stick to the most basic plural, the one that means "all the (somethings)" or “(somethings) in general".

The basic plural (“all the ~”, “~ in general”) is formed by adding either -r or -i.

   -r after vowel except -ë

   -r after -ië

   -i replaces -ë

   -i after consonant

     Vala                   --> Valar (as a group)

     Atan (Human) --> Atani (Humans, in general)

     lassë (a leaf)     --> lassi (leaves)

"Valar", "Ainur", "Maiar" are all plurals.

<<<•>>>

We get silly:

If Olwë named all his many sons Olwë Jr., the collection of them would be “Olwi” (“all the Olwës”).

"-incë" is the ending for "cute little"

     huo (dog)       huincë (puppy – not in Tolkien's word list, but a compatible word)

      Olwinci         “all the cute little Olwës”

<<<•>>>

Possessive Pronoun (“my”, “your”, “his”)

Possessive pronouns aren't actually separate words in Quenya. They are endings tacked onto the word.

The possessive pronoun goes directly after the noun, and before any other endings.

Quenya has more categories of pronouns than English does. These are some of them, not the complete list.

Quenya does not have separate pronouns for males and females (“him” vs. “her”). This applies to all pronouns.

Quenya does make the distinction between formal/polite “you” and informal/familiar “you”. (Think Spanish tu vs usted; French tu vs. vous; German du vs sie.) In English, “you” is formal, and “thou” is familiar. Presumably in Quenya, like in human languages, it would be patronizing and insulting to use the familiar in the wrong setting. Don't use "thou" when speaking to the king.

If the noun ends in a consonant, you need to add a vowel between the noun and the ending (in order to get something pronounceable). Probably that vowel is -i- for “my” and -e- for all the others, though Tolkien did not leave explicit instructions, and there are only a few examples.

   after        after

  vowel    consonant

     -nya        -inya     my

     -lya         -elya      your (one person, formal/polite)

     -tya         -etya     your (one person, informal/familiar)

     -lda         -elda     your (a group)

     -rya         -erya     his/her/its (This is the “correct” form.)

     -lta          -elta      their

     parma (book) -- > parmalya (your book, sir)

     Anar (Sun)      -- > Anarinya (my Sun)

     aran (king)      -- > aranelda (your – a group's – king)

     huonya     my dog

     huolya      your dog, sir

“Sir” is implied by the formal/polite ending -lya, as opposed to the informal/familiar/possibly patronizing ending -tya. This is the proper form to use with the king, unless you are close family (or possibly if he is drinking beer with his buddies).

     huincë            puppy

     huincenya     my puppy

     huincelya      Your puppy

     huincetya      yer pup, bro

<<<•>>>

“Namárië” means “be well”, and can be used either as a greeting or a farewell.

There isn't a simple, common Quenya greeting for “hello” (a useful word that Professor Tolkien didn't give us).

> Lesson 2 continues    
> Lesson 3    

Quenya Lesson 14 — Cases Part 2, continued

< Lesson 13    

Updated Version, March 2013

  Present:

Lihan Taifun (teaching)

AelKennyr Rhiano

Rajani Milton

Shawn Daysleeper

GENITIVE case (“of”, sometimes “from”; indicates origin)

the commands of Manwë

     singular: replace -a with -o; otherwise add -o (even to other vowel endings)

     plural: add -on to the ordinary accusative plural (-ron after vowel except -ë ;   -ron after -ië ;   -ion replaces -ë ;   -ion after consonant)

POSSESSIVE case (“of”, belonging to)

The boundary between Possessive and Genitive is not always clear.

     singular: add -va after a vowel; add -wa after a consonant

     plural: replace -ë with -iva; otherwise add -iva

LOCATIVE case (“in”, “on”)

     singular: add -ssë after vowels; add -essë after consonants, (except -l and -n, for which add -dë)

     plural: add -ssen after vowels; add -issen after consonants (presumably -den after -l and -n)

ABLATIVE case (“from”, “out of”)

     singular: add -llo after vowels; add -ello after consonants

     plural: add –llon or -llor after vowels; add -illon or -illor after consonants

           Either ending is acceptable.

ALLATIVE case (“to”, “into”, “toward”)

     singular: add -nna after vowels; add -enna after consonants

     plural: add -nnar after vowels; add -innar after consonants

also used idiomatically for “upon” the waves:

INSTRUMENTAL case (“because of”, “using”; indicates the reason or agent which causes)

     singular: add -nen after vowels; add -enen after consonants

     plural: replace -ë with -inen; otherwise add -inen

<<<«¤»>>>

These (plus nominative, accusative, and genitive from Part 1) are all the cases in Quenya. There are no more lurking in the wings.

Tolkien modelled Quenya after Finnish, which has about twice this number of cases.

<<<«¤»>>>

Word order is much less important in Quenya than it is in English.

<<<«¤»>>>

Manwë's orders (coming from Manwë) canwe Manweo
Eönwe's orders (issued to Eönwë) canwe Eönweva

belonging to Alqualondë Alqualondeva (possessive)
originating from Alqualondë Alqualondeo (genitive)
travelling from Alqualonde Alqualondello (ablative)
“Refugees from Alqualondë” could be either genitive or ablative.

“I am Olwë from Alqualondë.”         Nán Olwë Alqualondeo.

(Just what part of the sentence is “Olwë” in that example? We aren't sure.)

Since the verb for “is” can be left out when the sentence is still understandable without it, you can probably also just say:

“(I am) Olwë from Alqualondë.”      Olwë Alqualondeo.

<<<«¤»>>>

“Thank you” is “Hantanyel”

     hanta-     verb “thank”

     -nye-       subject “I”

     -l              object “you”

There is not one simple standard way to say “Please” in Quenya.

<<<«¤»>>>

dog          huo

puppy     huincë (probably: “-incë” is the suffix meaning “cute little”)

Find the Alqualonde puppy  Á hirë huince Alqualondevo.

sharp     maica

dull        úmaice (probably: “ú-” is the prefix for “not”)

A collection of “new” Quenya words formed, following the rules of authentic Quenya:

http://www.elvish.org/elm/newwords.html

travel     lelya-

Olwe goes from Alqualonde to Taniquetil. 

     Olwë lelya Alqualondello Taniquetilenna.

The city of Rómenna (on the eastern coast of Númenor) comes from “Rómen” (east) and “-nna” (allative - “toward”). (Yes, the correct grammar would be “Rómenenna”, but this is a city name, and “Rómenna” is more pronouncable.)

<<<«¤»>>>

parma      (book)

                         singular        plural

genitive           parmo           parmaron          originating from a book

possessive      parmáva       parmaiva           belonging to a book

locative           parmassë      parmassen        in a book, on a book

ablative           parmallo       parmallon, parmallor       out of a book

allative            parmanna     parmannar       toward a book, into a book

instrumental  parmanen     parmainen       because of a book, using a book

lassë      (leaf)

                         singular        plural

genitive           lassëo         lassion            originating from a leaf

possessive      lasséva       lassiva             belonging to a leaf

locative           lassessë      lassessen        on a leaf

ablative           lassello       lassellon, lassellor       away from a leaf

allative            lassenna     lassennar        toward a leaf

instrumental  lassenen     lassinen          because of a leaf, using a leaf

Atan      (Human)

                         singular        plural

genitive           Atano           Atanion          originating from a Human

possessive      Atanwa        Ataniva           belonging to a Human

locative           Atandë      Atanden        in a Human, on a Human

ablative           Atanello       Atanillon, Atanillor       away from a Human

allative            Atanenna     Ataninnar       toward a Human

instrumental  Atanenen     Ataninen         because of a Human

<<<«¤»>>>

(your turn)

belonging to Alqualondë

originating from Alqualondë

in Alqualondë

toward Alqualondë

away from Alqualondë

caused by Alqualondë

belonging to Tol Eressëa

originating from Tol Eressëa

in Tol Eressëa

toward Tol Eressëa

away from Tol Eressëa

caused by Tol Eressëa

belonging to home

originating from home

at home

toward home

away from home

caused by home

belonging to ships

originating from ships

on ships

toward ships

away from ships

caused by ships

The Movies

Present:

Shawn Daysleeper 

Lihan Taifun           

AelKennyr Rhiano 

Rhûn Darkmoon

Rajani Milton         

Summary:

We had planned to discuss Yavanna and the Ents.  Belanos had requested that topic, and she was sick this week.  So that topic is moved to November.

Lihan liked the slant that Elrond doesn't consider “heir of Isildur” a good recommendation.  (The Humans may regard Isildur as a heroic king, but to the Elves he was just a stupid Human who blew a chance to save the world.)  That gives Elrond a bit more personality.

Both Elrond and Galadriel take the Ring very seriously, and don't want something that dangerous staying in their lands.   We like seeing Galadriel portrayed as powerful and dangerous – someone the Hobbits and Riders of Rohan find scary.   Both Elrond and Galadriel don't want to get too involved with the Ring, which fits with the Elves withdrawing from MiddleEarth.

Why were the Elves withdrawing? Does it make sense for them to all leave? Remember that not all Elves were leaving MiddleEarth, only the High Elves – those originally from Aman.   At the end of the Third Age, the only High Elves we know of in MiddleEarth were Galadriel (and Celeborn, if you go by the version of the story in which he was Teleri).   The Sindar and other Elves who had always lived in MiddleEarth stayed.   It is not clear why Elrond was leaving; he was Sindar.   His deceased wife was Noldor, so he may have wanted to go to Aman to be with her.   If there were any low-ranking Noldor left, it would make sense that they had joined Elrond's household, and would want to return to Aman.   Although Legolas (and Gimli) later sailed to Aman, Legolas' family were Green Elves, and would have all stayed in MiddleEarth.

People generally liked Gimli as comic relief.

Reactions to Faramir are mixed – some people prefer the book version and some the movie version.   Although at first it might seem that Faramir refusing the lure of the Ring makes his brother Boromir look weak, remember that Boromir was exposed to the Ring for months, and Faramir for less than 24 hours.

The scene with the Nazgul in Osgiliath makes no logical sense.

Lihan Taifun:            Belanos is the one who asked for this topic, and she isn't here

{She is sick.}

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I know she wanted to be here, too.

Lihan Taifun:            so, do we want to save Ents for next month? do we have any alternate topics?

Rhûn Darkmoon:     "Do we want to discuss the topic anyways and send her the transcript to read? Or wait til she can be here to discuss it too?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I thnk we should save the Ents for when she is here?

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes I think so. She would like that best I suspect.'

Lihan Taifun:            I agree. Ents for November

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I hear people complain about LOTR the movies...and how they do not agree with the books. Lihan, how do you feel about the movies? especially how Gandalf and the elves are protrayed.

Lihan Taifun:            there are a few changes I liked, a lot that I didn't like

Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Which ones did you like?'

Lihan Taifun:            I like Elrond feeling that "heir of Isildur" is NOT a recommendation

AelKennyr Rhiano:  why?

Lihan Taifun:            it gives Elrond more personality. He, and quite a few other characters, are "too nice" in the books, rather 2-dimensional in the books. although Denethor and Saruman have a lot more depth in the books

{Rajani arrives. Greetings, and recap of discussion so far}

Lihan Taifun:            I was just saying I liked the fact that Elrond doesn't think "heir of Isildur" is a recommendation, gives Elrond a bit more depth to his personality

Rajani Milton:          since Isildur got himself offed through stupidity? it does really; although I am not entirely sold on the acting there--oh well

Lihan Taifun:            AND had the chance to destroy the ring back then, and didn't, causing another 2500 years of worry. well, acting is a different question

Rajani Milton:          yes! what I mean about stupidity

AelKennyr Rhiano:  What about Celeborn and Galadriel?

Lihan Taifun:            and both Elrond and Galadriel have a strong streak of "keep the ring moving, don't leave it here to bring trouble to our realm"

Rajani Milton:          yes. I liked that....they know how Rings of Power act, so they take it seriously, and it's the whole thing where the Elves are kind of withdrawing from the action, compared with, say, Olwe's day :D

Lihan Taifun:            and they know their military strength won't stand up to an invasion

Rajani Milton:          yeah

Lihan Taifun:            I thought it made sense that Galadriel came across as very powerful, and someone hobbits found scary, someone the Riders of Rohan would consider an "elvish witch"

AelKennyr Rhiano:  the part about Tolkien's world I find hard to accept is the total withdrawal of the elves. I don't think it plausible

Lihan Taifun:            that always is a question, about the elves withdrawing

Rajani Milton:          that always made me sad, about the Elves

Lihan Taifun:            isn't that Sam's line?

Rajani Milton:          ha, I always did like Sam :D

Shawn Daysleeper:  Sam seemed dramatised more in the films

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think they did dramatized Sam a little bit more

Rajani Milton:          I suppose you could say, they have been around for so long that they have gotten really tired

Rhûn Darkmoon:     'What was the reason he gave for them withdrawing?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:  but they are a part OF the world, and for them to voluntarily leave .....all of them...no, I don't find that plausible. People tend to want to remain with what they know, not change to what they don't know.

Lihan Taifun:            I can see the elves handing over political power to Humans, and "withdrawing" in that sense

Shawn Daysleeper:  well, not all the elves left Middle Earth, just the Eldar

Lihan Taifun:            it is true about not all elves leaving

AelKennyr Rhiano:  But the Eldar had been gone for centuries, right? Elrond is not, for example, an eldar, is he?

Shawn Daysleeper:  the Noldor I think

Lihan Taifun:            Elrond is mostly Sindar -- yeah, so why is he leaving?

Shawn Daysleeper:  when Cirdan builds the last ship, it says that when that ship passed on that it was the end of the Eldar in Middle Earth

AelKennyr Rhiano:  By the time of LOTR, are there any Eldars left in middle earth?

Shawn Daysleeper:  Galadriel, Celeborn

Lihan Taifun:            those might be all

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I can't think of any others.

Lihan Taifun:            Elrond's wife was Noldor, but she was dead. Celeborn, it depends on which version of the story, what clan he was from

Rajani Milton:          right

Shawn Daysleeper:  so the Eldar consisted of 2 by the LOTR times, at most

Lihan Taifun:            maybe 1, depending on Celeborn; so, when they sailed, that was the end

Rajani Milton:          Legolas's family wasn't one of the groups who were in Valimar. Legolas' family was Green Elves, not even really Sindarin

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Rajani Milton:          right. what about all the other Lothlorien people? some of them would have been around for a while. and Elrond's staff and such

Lihan Taifun:            most of the people of Lothlorien were locals

Rajani Milton:          hmm, I think you're right, at least in the version where Celeborn is related to them

Lihan Taifun:            some of the people in Elrond's household might have been Noldor. If there were any low-ranking Noldor, Rivendell is the most likely place for them to end up

Rajani Milton:          I think Tolkien was trying to do a parallel with other myths, you know the kind where " this is why we don't see faeries any more, there are too many humans around now"

nod nod It doesn't say what Arwen's brother's did, does it? In Elrond's case, he might just want to be with Celebrian again

Lihan Taifun:            hmm, no, I don't remember what happened to them. well, that would be a good reason for him to go

Shawn Daysleeper:  I never interpreted that scene to be the end of elves in general, just the Eldar ones in Middle Earth.maybe I am wrong and missed something

Lihan Taifun:            no, I agree, Shawn. Legolas elves in Mirkwood definitely stayed

AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh, ok...no, that makes sense, shawn.

Rajani Milton:          I was always under the impression that the wood-elves stayed, like, the ones who were "from" Middle Earth and hadn't lived in Valinor at all

Lihan Taifun:            yes!

AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh, that makes sense, Rajani. I think I have always misunderstood it.

Lihan Taifun:            the books say that Gimli sent some dwarves to help rebuild Minas Tirith, and Legolas sent some elves to help replant the gardens

Rajani Milton:          yes, though Legolas and Gimli themselves did leave

Lihan Taifun:            though eventually Legolas and Gimli did leave, yes

Rajani Milton:          There is definitely a distinction in the Silm and stuff between the Elves who went to Aman and the ones that stayed (even though some of the ones that went, came back)

by Legolas Club

Shawn Daysleeper:  ‚ú¶‚úßHaHaHa‚ú¶‚úß that is awesome Ael :)

{much laughing}

Rajani Milton:          I actually used to think of Legolas as a brunett, from fanart I'd seen back in the day, before the movie

Lihan Taifun:            all the wood elves (which includes most of the residents of Lothlorien) should have dark hair

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I liked how Gimli was portrayed in the movie.

Rhûn Darkmoon nods nods nods and grins

Rajani Milton:          I liked Gimli when he wasn't being played as bumbling

Rajani Milton:          Do not mock teh dwarf! *shakes axe*

Shawn Daysleeper:  ‚ú¶‚úßHaHaHa‚ú¶‚úß

AelKennyr Rhiano:  He had some great lines...

Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'He does.'

Lihan Taifun:            yes, they made a lot of cheap jokes at Gimli's expense. I hope in the Hobbit, the Dwarves are heroic and the elves are snooty little prigs everyone laughs at

AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well that is part of the old tried and true formula, to have some comic character.

Lihan Taifun:            it was certainly "formula"

Shawn Daysleeper:  nods

Lihan Taifun:            and probably played well to the 14-year-old audience

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'And it is a formula for a reason. If stories 'worked' without it, they are a different style altogether. A good storyteller always takes his audience through all the emotions, including laughter.'

Shawn Daysleeper:  we did that in the rp

AelKennyr Rhiano:  It worked for shakespeare.

Rhûn Darkmoon nods at Shawn and Ael, 'It has worked for many classic and modern successful authors.'

AelKennyr Rhiano:  Continually sustained drama and conflict without sometime to relieve it becomes quickly boring.

Lihan Taifun:            but the humor in our RP doesn't have some characters whose main function is to be the buffoon

AelKennyr Rhiano:  And the reader's attention or viewer's will wander. well.....Gimli was not a true buffoon.

Lihan Taifun:            humor is good -- Eowyn can't cook

Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Did you think that is what Gimli was, Lihan? I didn't see him as that at all. I thought many of the other characters were cause of humour also, including even Gandalf himself.'

Shawn Daysleeper:  Pippin seems to be the buffoon in LOTR films

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I agree...and even Pippin has his heroic moments. although I agree with Shawn, Pippin comes closer.

Lihan Taifun:            Pippin does

Shawn Daysleeper:  Gimli seemed very serious when we first met him

AelKennyr Rhiano:  And so did Merry, but we see Merry grow and evolve faster.

Lihan Taifun:            I had the feeling that we were meant to like Merry and Pippin, whereas I didn't get the feeling Peter Jackson much liked or respected Gimli

Rhûn Darkmoon:     'I actually thought he brought out the feistiness of the dwarves rather well. Gimli never hesitated to speak his mind no matter where he was.'

Lihan Taifun:            true!

AelKennyr Rhiano:  And he had a depth to him. Remember when he met Galadriel.

Lihan Taifun:            that is a good scene; I'm glad they left that in

Shawn Daysleeper:  nods

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, he wasn't just aggressive, or just foolish, or just sentimental, or just outspoken. He really was a well rounded character and is one of my favourites from the films (not having read the books)'

Lihan Taifun:            (When you do read the books, skim until you to Rivendell, because there are some VERY slow parts at the beginning)

AelKennyr Rhiano:  and you know, if you take Shawn's Irmo...he is a remarkable character. and as Estelin, he gets poked at because of the "cooking"

Shawn Daysleeper:  smiles

AelKennyr Rhiano:  And there is Ulmo...who can't get his hands to be proportional to the rest of his body advising Estelin on how to fit in.

Lihan Taifun:            "Ulmo giving bad advice"

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'And people will find humour where they want to. Look at Aule. He's not played humourously, but everyone kids around about him.'

Shawn Daysleeper:  hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano:  That is because we didn't know that Klingons were descended from very tall dwarves.

Shawn Daysleeper:  grins

Rhûn Darkmoon grins and pokes Ael, 'He is not a klingon!' 'But see my point?'

AelKennyr Rhiano:  And yet Ulmo is very wise in so many other areas, but mortals...he may have observed them, but he still does not completely understand them.

Lihan Taifun:            true. does Legolas ever do anything intended to be funny?

AelKennyr Rhiano:  that he plans to be funny or that is funny?

Lihan Taifun:            deliberately funny

AelKennyr Rhiano:  thinks

Shawn Daysleeper:  I don't think there is anything

AelKennyr Rhiano thinks some more.

Rajani Milton:          hmm

Shawn Daysleeper:  watches Ael think

AelKennyr Rhiano:  lol I don't think so. The elves seem rather humor impaired.

Lihan Taifun:            and the humans. except Eowyn's cooking

AelKennyr Rhiano:  and the drinking challenge between Gimli and Legolas

Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'That's because legolas didn't have a rogue to show him how to get into mischief.'

Lihan Taifun:            I missed the drinking challenge

AelKennyr Rhiano:  It was more an unspoken challenge, and in the movies it was rather apparent that Legolas had not drunk much ale before.

Lihan Taifun:            ah!

Rajani Milton:          in Edoras after the battle. I *think* that was a Peter Jackson insertion

AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes!

Lihan Taifun:            I didn't stay that late

Rajani Milton:          there was the orc count

AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh yeah

Lihan Taifun:            The really controversial question: what about Faramir?

AelKennyr Rhiano listens

Rajani Milton:          oh God :D

Shawn Daysleeper:  Faramir was more believable in the films. I think

Rajani Milton:          I liked book!Faramir dammit. also, book Faramir had a chin. but, I looooooved the outfits for Faramir's rangers :D and their hideout :D

Shawn Daysleeper:  well, in the book, Faramir able to refuse the ring makes Boromir look weak

Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Ok, which one was Faramir?'.. blushes

Lihan Taifun:            that has been a big point of debate about the movies: did they give a too-nice characters some personality, or did they make a decent guy into a jerk?

Rajani Milton:          yes

Rajani Milton:          Faramir is in the third movie (?) and is a human who captures Sam and Frodo....Boromir's little brother

Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Ok.'

Lihan Taifun:            in the book, Faramir was only around the ring less than 24 hours. It took Boromir months to succumb

AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes, the third movie

Rajani Milton:          I wouldn't say Boromir was weak, though. yes, exactly, what Lihan said

AelKennyr Rhiano:  Nor would I.

Lihan Taifun:            is that in the third movie?

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I believe so. but I would not bet on it.

Rajani Milton:          The other difference between them was that Boromir wanted to be king (or steward) and Faramir didn't really

Rajani Milton:          which I think would affect how they reacted to the lure of infinite power

Lihan Taifun:            ok, so we haven't gotten to Faramir yet

Rajani Milton:          yes, I think it's ROTK

Lihan Taifun:            Frodo meeting the Nazgul in Osgiliath? That isn't in Movie 2?

Rajani Milton:          hmm, ok, how does Two Towers end, in the movie? oh, right, Sam and Frodo and Gollum in the woods...yeah, that is after Osgiliath then, after that verystupidomg scene in Osgiliath. Rajani Milton Has Opinions

Lihan Taifun:            scene which blasts a huge hole into the entire plot

AelKennyr Rhiano:  It's been fun, and I hate to dash, but I have rp notecards and some other cards to edit... :)

{Farewells}

Lihan Taifun:            and we have a topic for next session!