This website contains archives of the Tolkien Discussion Group from 2009 to early 2013.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011

The Movies

Shawn Daysleeper 
Lihan Taifun           
AelKennyr Rhiano 
Rhûn Darkmoon
Rajani Milton         

We had planned to discuss Yavanna and the Ents.  Belanos had requested that topic, and she was sick this week.  So that topic is moved to November.

Lihan liked the slant that Elrond doesn't consider “heir of Isildur” a good recommendation.  (The Humans may regard Isildur as a heroic king, but to the Elves he was just a stupid Human who blew a chance to save the world.)  That gives Elrond a bit more personality.

Both Elrond and Galadriel take the Ring very seriously, and don't want something that dangerous staying in their lands.   We like seeing Galadriel portrayed as powerful and dangerous – someone the Hobbits and Riders of Rohan find scary.   Both Elrond and Galadriel don't want to get too involved with the Ring, which fits with the Elves withdrawing from MiddleEarth.

Why were the Elves withdrawing? Does it make sense for them to all leave? Remember that not all Elves were leaving MiddleEarth, only the High Elves – those originally from Aman.   At the end of the Third Age, the only High Elves we know of in MiddleEarth were Galadriel (and Celeborn, if you go by the version of the story in which he was Teleri).   The Sindar and other Elves who had always lived in MiddleEarth stayed.   It is not clear why Elrond was leaving; he was Sindar.   His deceased wife was Noldor, so he may have wanted to go to Aman to be with her.   If there were any low-ranking Noldor left, it would make sense that they had joined Elrond's household, and would want to return to Aman.   Although Legolas (and Gimli) later sailed to Aman, Legolas' family were Green Elves, and would have all stayed in MiddleEarth.

People generally liked Gimli as comic relief.

Reactions to Faramir are mixed – some people prefer the book version and some the movie version.   Although at first it might seem that Faramir refusing the lure of the Ring makes his brother Boromir look weak, remember that Boromir was exposed to the Ring for months, and Faramir for less than 24 hours.

The scene with the Nazgul in Osgiliath makes no logical sense.

Lihan Taifun:            Belanos is the one who asked for this topic, and she isn't here
{She is sick.}
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I know she wanted to be here, too.
Lihan Taifun:            so, do we want to save Ents for next month? do we have any alternate topics?
Rhûn Darkmoon:     "Do we want to discuss the topic anyways and send her the transcript to read? Or wait til she can be here to discuss it too?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I thnk we should save the Ents for when she is here?
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes I think so. She would like that best I suspect.'
Lihan Taifun:            I agree. Ents for November

AelKennyr Rhiano:  I hear people complain about LOTR the movies...and how they do not agree with the books. Lihan, how do you feel about the movies? especially how Gandalf and the elves are protrayed.
Lihan Taifun:            there are a few changes I liked, a lot that I didn't like
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Which ones did you like?'
Lihan Taifun:            I like Elrond feeling that "heir of Isildur" is NOT a recommendation
AelKennyr Rhiano:  why?
Lihan Taifun:            it gives Elrond more personality. He, and quite a few other characters, are "too nice" in the books, rather 2-dimensional in the books. although Denethor and Saruman have a lot more depth in the books

{Rajani arrives. Greetings, and recap of discussion so far}
Lihan Taifun:            I was just saying I liked the fact that Elrond doesn't think "heir of Isildur" is a recommendation, gives Elrond a bit more depth to his personality
Rajani Milton:          since Isildur got himself offed through stupidity? it does really; although I am not entirely sold on the acting there--oh well
Lihan Taifun:            AND had the chance to destroy the ring back then, and didn't, causing another 2500 years of worry. well, acting is a different question
Rajani Milton:          yes! what I mean about stupidity

AelKennyr Rhiano:  What about Celeborn and Galadriel?
Lihan Taifun:            and both Elrond and Galadriel have a strong streak of "keep the ring moving, don't leave it here to bring trouble to our realm"
Rajani Milton:          yes. I liked that....they know how Rings of Power act, so they take it seriously, and it's the whole thing where the Elves are kind of withdrawing from the action, compared with, say, Olwe's day :D
Lihan Taifun:            and they know their military strength won't stand up to an invasion
Rajani Milton:          yeah
Lihan Taifun:            I thought it made sense that Galadriel came across as very powerful, and someone hobbits found scary, someone the Riders of Rohan would consider an "elvish witch"
AelKennyr Rhiano:  the part about Tolkien's world I find hard to accept is the total withdrawal of the elves. I don't think it plausible
Lihan Taifun:            that always is a question, about the elves withdrawing
Rajani Milton:          that always made me sad, about the Elves
Lihan Taifun:            isn't that Sam's line?
Rajani Milton:          ha, I always did like Sam :D
Shawn Daysleeper:  Sam seemed dramatised more in the films
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I think they did dramatized Sam a little bit more

Rajani Milton:          I suppose you could say, they have been around for so long that they have gotten really tired
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'What was the reason he gave for them withdrawing?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  but they are a part OF the world, and for them to voluntarily leave .....all of, I don't find that plausible. People tend to want to remain with what they know, not change to what they don't know.
Lihan Taifun:            I can see the elves handing over political power to Humans, and "withdrawing" in that sense
Shawn Daysleeper:  well, not all the elves left Middle Earth, just the Eldar
Lihan Taifun:            it is true about not all elves leaving
AelKennyr Rhiano:  But the Eldar had been gone for centuries, right? Elrond is not, for example, an eldar, is he?
Shawn Daysleeper:  the Noldor I think
Lihan Taifun:            Elrond is mostly Sindar -- yeah, so why is he leaving?
Shawn Daysleeper:  when Cirdan builds the last ship, it says that when that ship passed on that it was the end of the Eldar in Middle Earth
AelKennyr Rhiano:  By the time of LOTR, are there any Eldars left in middle earth?
Shawn Daysleeper:  Galadriel, Celeborn
Lihan Taifun:            those might be all
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I can't think of any others.
Lihan Taifun:            Elrond's wife was Noldor, but she was dead. Celeborn, it depends on which version of the story, what clan he was from
Rajani Milton:          right
Shawn Daysleeper:  so the Eldar consisted of 2 by the LOTR times, at most
Lihan Taifun:            maybe 1, depending on Celeborn; so, when they sailed, that was the end
Rajani Milton:          Legolas's family wasn't one of the groups who were in Valimar. Legolas' family was Green Elves, not even really Sindarin
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Rajani Milton:          right. what about all the other Lothlorien people? some of them would have been around for a while. and Elrond's staff and such
Lihan Taifun:            most of the people of Lothlorien were locals
Rajani Milton:          hmm, I think you're right, at least in the version where Celeborn is related to them
Lihan Taifun:            some of the people in Elrond's household might have been Noldor. If there were any low-ranking Noldor, Rivendell is the most likely place for them to end up
Rajani Milton:          I think Tolkien was trying to do a parallel with other myths, you know the kind where " this is why we don't see faeries any more, there are too many humans around now"
nod nod It doesn't say what Arwen's brother's did, does it? In Elrond's case, he might just want to be with Celebrian again
Lihan Taifun:            hmm, no, I don't remember what happened to them. well, that would be a good reason for him to go
Shawn Daysleeper:  I never interpreted that scene to be the end of elves in general, just the Eldar ones in Middle Earth.maybe I am wrong and missed something
Lihan Taifun:            no, I agree, Shawn. Legolas elves in Mirkwood definitely stayed
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh,, that makes sense, shawn.
Rajani Milton:          I was always under the impression that the wood-elves stayed, like, the ones who were "from" Middle Earth and hadn't lived in Valinor at all
Lihan Taifun:            yes!
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh, that makes sense, Rajani. I think I have always misunderstood it.
Lihan Taifun:            the books say that Gimli sent some dwarves to help rebuild Minas Tirith, and Legolas sent some elves to help replant the gardens
Rajani Milton:          yes, though Legolas and Gimli themselves did leave
Lihan Taifun:            though eventually Legolas and Gimli did leave, yes
Rajani Milton:          There is definitely a distinction in the Silm and stuff between the Elves who went to Aman and the ones that stayed (even though some of the ones that went, came back)

by Legolas Club

Shawn Daysleeper:  ‚ú¶‚úßHaHaHa‚ú¶‚úß that is awesome Ael :)
{much laughing}
Rajani Milton:          I actually used to think of Legolas as a brunett, from fanart I'd seen back in the day, before the movie
Lihan Taifun:            all the wood elves (which includes most of the residents of Lothlorien) should have dark hair
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I liked how Gimli was portrayed in the movie.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods nods nods and grins
Rajani Milton:          I liked Gimli when he wasn't being played as bumbling
Rajani Milton:          Do not mock teh dwarf! *shakes axe*
Shawn Daysleeper:  ‚ú¶‚úßHaHaHa‚ú¶‚úß
AelKennyr Rhiano:  He had some great lines...
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'He does.'
Lihan Taifun:            yes, they made a lot of cheap jokes at Gimli's expense. I hope in the Hobbit, the Dwarves are heroic and the elves are snooty little prigs everyone laughs at
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Well that is part of the old tried and true formula, to have some comic character.
Lihan Taifun:            it was certainly "formula"
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Lihan Taifun:            and probably played well to the 14-year-old audience
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'And it is a formula for a reason. If stories 'worked' without it, they are a different style altogether. A good storyteller always takes his audience through all the emotions, including laughter.'
Shawn Daysleeper:  we did that in the rp
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It worked for shakespeare.
Rhûn Darkmoon nods at Shawn and Ael, 'It has worked for many classic and modern successful authors.'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Continually sustained drama and conflict without sometime to relieve it becomes quickly boring.
Lihan Taifun:            but the humor in our RP doesn't have some characters whose main function is to be the buffoon
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And the reader's attention or viewer's will wander. well.....Gimli was not a true buffoon.
Lihan Taifun:            humor is good -- Eowyn can't cook
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Did you think that is what Gimli was, Lihan? I didn't see him as that at all. I thought many of the other characters were cause of humour also, including even Gandalf himself.'
Shawn Daysleeper:  Pippin seems to be the buffoon in LOTR films
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I agree...and even Pippin has his heroic moments. although I agree with Shawn, Pippin comes closer.
Lihan Taifun:            Pippin does
Shawn Daysleeper:  Gimli seemed very serious when we first met him
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And so did Merry, but we see Merry grow and evolve faster.
Lihan Taifun:            I had the feeling that we were meant to like Merry and Pippin, whereas I didn't get the feeling Peter Jackson much liked or respected Gimli
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'I actually thought he brought out the feistiness of the dwarves rather well. Gimli never hesitated to speak his mind no matter where he was.'
Lihan Taifun:            true!
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And he had a depth to him. Remember when he met Galadriel.
Lihan Taifun:            that is a good scene; I'm glad they left that in
Shawn Daysleeper:  nods
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Yes, he wasn't just aggressive, or just foolish, or just sentimental, or just outspoken. He really was a well rounded character and is one of my favourites from the films (not having read the books)'
Lihan Taifun:            (When you do read the books, skim until you to Rivendell, because there are some VERY slow parts at the beginning)
AelKennyr Rhiano:  and you know, if you take Shawn's Irmo...he is a remarkable character. and as Estelin, he gets poked at because of the "cooking"
Shawn Daysleeper:  smiles
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And there is Ulmo...who can't get his hands to be proportional to the rest of his body advising Estelin on how to fit in.
Lihan Taifun:            "Ulmo giving bad advice"
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'And people will find humour where they want to. Look at Aule. He's not played humourously, but everyone kids around about him.'
Shawn Daysleeper:  hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano:  That is because we didn't know that Klingons were descended from very tall dwarves.
Shawn Daysleeper:  grins
Rhûn Darkmoon grins and pokes Ael, 'He is not a klingon!' 'But see my point?'
AelKennyr Rhiano:  And yet Ulmo is very wise in so many other areas, but mortals...he may have observed them, but he still does not completely understand them.
Lihan Taifun:            true. does Legolas ever do anything intended to be funny?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  that he plans to be funny or that is funny?
Lihan Taifun:            deliberately funny
AelKennyr Rhiano:  thinks
Shawn Daysleeper:  I don't think there is anything
AelKennyr Rhiano thinks some more.
Rajani Milton:          hmm
Shawn Daysleeper:  watches Ael think
AelKennyr Rhiano:  lol I don't think so. The elves seem rather humor impaired.
Lihan Taifun:            and the humans. except Eowyn's cooking
AelKennyr Rhiano:  and the drinking challenge between Gimli and Legolas
Rhûn Darkmoon grins, 'That's because legolas didn't have a rogue to show him how to get into mischief.'
Lihan Taifun:            I missed the drinking challenge
AelKennyr Rhiano:  It was more an unspoken challenge, and in the movies it was rather apparent that Legolas had not drunk much ale before.
Lihan Taifun:            ah!
Rajani Milton:          in Edoras after the battle. I *think* that was a Peter Jackson insertion
AelKennyr Rhiano:  yes!
Lihan Taifun:            I didn't stay that late
Rajani Milton:          there was the orc count
AelKennyr Rhiano:  oh yeah

Lihan Taifun:            The really controversial question: what about Faramir?
AelKennyr Rhiano listens
Rajani Milton:          oh God :D
Shawn Daysleeper:  Faramir was more believable in the films. I think
Rajani Milton:          I liked book!Faramir dammit. also, book Faramir had a chin. but, I looooooved the outfits for Faramir's rangers :D and their hideout :D
Shawn Daysleeper:  well, in the book, Faramir able to refuse the ring makes Boromir look weak
Rhûn Darkmoon:     'Ok, which one was Faramir?'.. blushes
Lihan Taifun:            that has been a big point of debate about the movies: did they give a too-nice characters some personality, or did they make a decent guy into a jerk?
Rajani Milton:          yes
Rajani Milton:          Faramir is in the third movie (?) and is a human who captures Sam and Frodo....Boromir's little brother
Rhûn Darkmoon nods, 'Ok.'
Lihan Taifun:            in the book, Faramir was only around the ring less than 24 hours. It took Boromir months to succumb
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Yes, the third movie
Rajani Milton:          I wouldn't say Boromir was weak, though. yes, exactly, what Lihan said
AelKennyr Rhiano:  Nor would I.
Lihan Taifun:            is that in the third movie?
AelKennyr Rhiano:  I believe so. but I would not bet on it.
Rajani Milton:          The other difference between them was that Boromir wanted to be king (or steward) and Faramir didn't really
Rajani Milton:          which I think would affect how they reacted to the lure of infinite power
Lihan Taifun:            ok, so we haven't gotten to Faramir yet
Rajani Milton:          yes, I think it's ROTK
Lihan Taifun:            Frodo meeting the Nazgul in Osgiliath? That isn't in Movie 2?
Rajani Milton:          hmm, ok, how does Two Towers end, in the movie? oh, right, Sam and Frodo and Gollum in the woods...yeah, that is after Osgiliath then, after that verystupidomg scene in Osgiliath. Rajani Milton Has Opinions
Lihan Taifun:            scene which blasts a huge hole into the entire plot

AelKennyr Rhiano:  It's been fun, and I hate to dash, but I have rp notecards and some other cards to edit... :)
Lihan Taifun:            and we have a topic for next session!