Tolkien Discussion Group
November 25, 2009
Topic: Shapeshifting Maiar
present:
Fifi Wickentower
Twylite Haggwood
Tuatha Shippe
AelKennyr Rhiano
Sideon Galanter
Wow, you are totally invisible today. Very appropriate for a wind Maia :D
who can see the wind . .neither you nor I :))
just so!
Did everyone get the notecard in yesterday's announcement? with some readingmaterial?
yes . . and thank you for putting that together
We have seen in the past that what Tolkien claimed was "typical" behavior wasn't always how his charaters acted
Ael says he will be here as soon as he gets a good logon connection
Tuatha Shippe: I am to be Ilmare, handmaiden to Varda...(this is outworld, btw) I am not finding much about her, which makes me believe that I could ...embellish
You have Ilmare's position?
yes
I didn't know Rajani gave it up, although, she hasn't been around much lately ...
LightWizard is to be Osse, This is in AG
Who is assigning these positions?
Manwe
hmmmm I see a split developing between the RP here and in AG, then
wait...not Osse; Olorin?
I didn't know Manwe had any interest in the RP there, either
Eonwe? I seem to be seriously behind the times
There isnt any RP in AG yet.We need more time to build
So, Maia shapeshifting ... I hear lots of silence in the circle
just listeneing :)
This is my first vist---I wait to see the customs
Ah, we are mostly out of character :D Although when Belanos the dragon queen is here, she is never entirely OOC
I thought I'd come more as myself for a change
Twylite, DID you get a copy of the notecard? I thought it might help us, having some examples of how the Professor actually wrote his shapeshifting characters, not just relying on what he said about how they *ought* to do it
I can't see you, Fifi
:D
Is that on purpose?
I see you
:D She is being her natural "wind" self
That's who you are really?
Who can see the wind . . neither you nor I. You may see the effect but not the actual wind
I don't know where I read it, but the Maiar seem to have had two different kinds of "bodies". Or, at least two; maybe Fifi is in the third form. Apparently, the most common visible form was sort of a body-shaped illusion. And, as with the wizards, they could also take real, fully-functional physical bodies
There is this manifestation too
Yes, also manifestations appropriate to the ainu's nature, ust like Arien, the Guide of the Sun, went with a flame form
yes
I'm sure when you are doing wind-things, you dont' bother with a body.Or when Ilmare is out doing mainenance on the stars
There can be a 'friendly/benign visage
Yes, the bodies seem to be mostly for when the ainur want to communicate with elves and humans
There's a body but not like what Eldar think of as a body; and sure - much easier if you blend in - non threatening
right
also a way to learn the ways of each race
What do you mean, "not like what Eldar think of as a body"? could you explain more?
size wise and 'flesh'; Ilmare would be in her star body or 'galactic gardrner' type body ^^
The one comment "their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself" led me to think that, at least in the beginning, the ainur knew more about what bodies look like than about their inner workings . So, at least at the beginnig, they were sort of approximating physical bodies
coming from the stars is appropriate to me
In the case of the wind or air or water - it takes in the shape of what ever contains or limits it
They probably got better at it, over the eons
Well...keeping the frequency static might have been hard to do...staying in form long enough to really experience the form...too difficult..or even painful
Well, sure, when you are being wind-shaped, you aren't even trying for a "shape"
Danger of crystalizing and becoming 'stuck'
aye..or even 'feeling' the density....
Yes, I'm sure some of the ainur prefered not to take "bodies" at all
yes
Heaviness weighs upon the heart
And those wouldn't have interacted much with the elves, and so didn't get into the stories much
spirit
nod nod nod
Or, at least, their influence on the elves, who were writing the stories, would have been very subtle
The only examples we know of for sure of ainur getting "stuck" were the evil ones. From the examples, it sounds like evil interferes with shapeshifting ability, at least after a while
The evil consumes its own freedom (That was a simple statement, too simple)
Even with a close interaction with elves, ainur would still be beyond complete understanding or comprehention by the elves
Evil has no freedom of spirit..not long lasting
Evil is cut off from the source of its true energy
yes
It sounded to me, in the quotes, like the evil ones were slowly draining their batteries, and not recharging
being in/of that Source ...its eternally giving
they are cut off from the source
yes...we know this is true
We were just on the part about evil ainur being disconnected from their source on energy, and getting stuck in their shapes, or, taking longer and longer to be able to take form ...
evil SL......sounds appropriate to our discussion...
one might say 'fallen angels'
the density/form....hold fast ,my friend
or longer to leave the form?
Do we know of any who tried to leave their form? It makes sense that that would be a similar problem. I don't remember any examples of the situation
hmm But would the elves know about that ?? so nothing mentioned
True, they might not. Almost all we know comes from what the elves recorded, which is very incomplete, when it comes to ainur
lucky for that :) I mean that they did record
your secret are safe?
mine?
I thought at first you were saying it was lucky they didn't know everything
I meant that although limited it is good to have what the elves did report
If Ilmare was Handmaiden to Varda.....wouldn't she be asked to take form for her Queen...like going on missions for her... What is a handmaiden anyway?
"Handmaiden" is a general term for female servant
How would one serve a great one like Varda
Assistant star-keeper?
Maybe lady-in-waiting' companion, friend
And help her button her dresses?
travel dimensions
buttons?
Help her materialize her buttons?
more like eons....buttons, indeed
Fifi Wickentower: *giggles
Maybe someone has to check on all those stars, make sure they aren't overheating
So...wouldn't any form Maiar be a shapeshift?
sure
I suppose it would . I suppose humans and elves call it "shapeshifting" if you use more than one form?
Because they can't
When we see Varda..we see an impression of energy in form, but not really form, not in a solid sense
WE probably percieve her more as energy, and, if she is wearing a form, that is secondary. The elves and the humans, of course, see mostly the form
Might a maiar be needed for more committed forms...to do Varda's bidding for example
You mean, when you are on assignment working the the Children?
right
Sure, then it would make sense for you to spend time in a form, and it would probably be less confusing for the people you were talking to if you stuck to one form
Are you awake there, Ael? is it less confusing if the ainur pick a form and stick with it?
But Ainur is not Maiar, really? My understanding is the Maiar are more...dense?
Ainur is the general category that includes all Valar and Maiar
Oh...im sorry
Think of archangels and angels
I should have said Valar
So I was saying "ainur" to include all of us, since we have more in common with each other than any of us do with the Children
nods You are a result of th Great Song
aye...beautiful music, from the stars
If Ael is asleep, we could switch to speaking in Valarin .... the noise of that would probably wake him up
I'm not asleep. I'm just trying to listen to the conversation
oh, ok
{Lihan crashes and relogs}
Phoenix gave me some material from some books he had, and i read similar online. So brief is her description..its mysterious
Gives you a lot of freedom to interpret her. I like the part about her being a great warrior with lightning as her weapon
She must have been sent as watch over the Teleri
She was a favorite of the Teleri, wasn't she?
Tol Eressea was a temporary land for the Teleri
If you are referring to the Book of the Lost Tales, Ilmare was called Erinti there..
Most moved on to build Aqualonde later...after they leaned to build ships/boats
She was said to be the Lady of Tol Eressea before becoming the daughter of Manwe and Varda.
In whatever sense it means to say an ainu has "parents". Certainly can't mean the same thing it means for the created races
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Erenti
Yes, that is the name, I believe, that she is known by in the Lost Tales.
Alright....I need the lost tales. then
In the Silmarillion, and please, Lihan, correct me, if I am wrong, Ilmare has the same standing as Eonwe and is one of the chiefs of the Maiar.
Yes indeed
Where were we? Deciding next week's topic?
Ilmare and Eronwe
Ilmare and Eonwe, yes, we were
Tuatha has Ilmare in the AG, and then we got off topic, I think
Next week?
We still have mers on the list
Is that of interest to anyone?
I don't know much about them, but if anyone does, we could talk about it
Would not the Teleri have some knowledge of the ppl of the waters?
Osse would have more....
Would he come?
We know Ulmo, Osse, Unien.....
I think it is not a matter of him not wanting to come but a matter of rl scheduling.
That would be my guess
I would like to offer something for us to consider...perhaps.
please
Well...for some of us who want to develop rp in the 4th Age of Tolkien, we would benefit greatly by reading and discussing that part of the Silmarillion....I don't know if the rest of you are interested.
the 4th age in the Silmarillion?
Sure :) not as familiar so good to learn
Are there not references to that time period, or am I off my medication again?
I may have forgotten mine lol ^^
Is there more than finishing up the lives of the major characters? or, that is the Appendices to LotR
idk... just an idea..
Where would I start?
Maybe we need to research that, see how much info there is; and we need to know when Ossy can come, to discuss the water folk
I live in a mer at times
Our resident shape changer indeed!
lol, It's all air and water, tho. I don't do fire and not earthy
We don't have to...it's ok
So we have two ideas, and both need more information before we decide for sure
So...next week, the mer? unless Ossy can't make it next week. We really need him for that topic
Ok with me if we discuss thr Mer ppl
Shall i come that way ?? or is it unsettling?
not at all. I think it adds to the discussion, Fifi.
I'll talk to Ossy, but maybe Sid will join us next week and help the discussion?
I may be able to join, yes.
I might even; I never get to wear my mermaid av :D
Maybe we should all dress as Mer...Alqualonde has a harbor to swim in
We could have a swimsuit party afterwards. ...Discuss and Dip
We have a lake
Well, then we are set :))
Merfolk dont usually wear swimsuits ...
The fins would be our "swimsuit?"
Can always shift to biped and bikinis
Although . . i do have a mer dance that i think up to 8 can use
I've been talking with Ossy about having a book club sort of group where we discuss the Silmarillion and other Tolkien works...He has a nack for putting the Silmarillion into layman's terms...
boy howdy, he does lololol
*snerk* that is one way to put it
Well, perhaps a more PG version
*covers Angus' ears just thinking about it
I am needed elsewhere; you all can continue as long as you like
thank you for hosting, once again, Lihan
I am impressed with the turnout we get every week
This is a high point for me, thought provoking and fun
and so glad when a new person comes :)
