Tolkien Discussion Group
November 11, 2009
Topic: Dragons, continued
Have you met Belanos?
Belenos the Black? Yes, I have.
Of course! She should be here soon
Excellent. I have to admit that I know little of this group, but when I received a notice for a discussion regarding dragons, I thought I ought to attend.
Wonderful. We do have the old discussions saved online,if you are interested
Last week we started discussing dragons, a very lively discussion. I thought we would continue with "origins of dragons", which, I notice, is not EXACTLY what the announcement said.Not that people stay on topic, no matter what the announced topic is
Bryster,meet the visiting dragons. We will have a lot of dragon experts tonight.
My Lady, I see no dragons, merely beings neither here nor there. And your good self has vanished in part I fear.
I believe they are not entirely in their full dragon forms
This particular form, is just a humanoid version of my true self. At times, it is more easier to move around in.
Bryster Shan sees the dragons through clearer eyes at last.
They are Maiar, that is why they can change form
Where is Belanos? She is usually early
I don't see her online
I suppose we should start
Last week we had decided dragons could "go good". They didn't have to retain their old evil ways
Yep, by using their free will. *nods*
We weren't decided whether dragons were originally Maiar spirits, or whether they were creations of Morgoth. I think that was where we were last week
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Morgoth cannot create... morgot can only modify. Right?
That is what people say. Qlthough, he participated in the Great Song
And created his own tune, yes?
Mmhmm but he never created anything else. That Im aware of...
So, that should count as creating
Even the Orcs he made were just tainted versions of elves. Which would imply he was more of a modifier than anything else. He just wanted to take things that existed to make them in his image. For his glory.
I've never heard of him creating anything from scratch after that
So the Maiar he took under his wing would have undergone a similar transformation to suit his image of perfection. Namely, in the image of himself after he was corrupted by spending too much time in the void. Before Ea was truly 'finished'. Thats what I had assumed anyway?
That makes sense. Derecho and Renlu, are you familiar with the Maiar?
Derecho Chrome shakes his head. "I am not."
Renlu Roeth pauses for a moment "I do not believe so.. I know very little outside where I was born"
Someone want to give our guests a quick summary?
Ossy Portocarrero looks at Lihan, and then laughs. Ossy Portocarrero claps his hands together "OK!"
Sooo!!! At the beginning, before the Universe...... Short... ok ... According to the Christian/Catholic belief of creation and stuff... There are these creatures called Angels. The Ainur are very similar to these creatures, NAMELY the two primarily subdivisions called Arch-Angels and just 'regular angels'. They were part of the force responsible for the creation of the world and after it was created were allowed, if they wanted, to come to Arda to stay here and finish terraforming before the children (elves and men, and later dwarves) were born. They are spirits in origin who can shape shift, though they prefer to look like Elves because they are the most beautiful of God's creation.They are divided into two ranks. Valar (or Vala in singular) and Maiar (or Maia in singular). The Valar are the primary of them who have control over the wider aspects of the world. The Maiar are their aides and control smaller sections of the domain of their superiors.That's the basic info. Ossy Portocarrero coughs "Go on"
Well put, Ossy
Ossy Portocarrero grins.
And some of the Maiar followed the evil Vala, Morgoth, and became various sorts of demons. Including, in some versions of the story, the dragons
Renlu Roeth would nod "I see, and these beings were attempted to be controlled? How foolish"
No, they went willingly when they fell sway to the song of Melkor.
Well, the Arador dragons eventually revolted from Morgoth. Or their ancestors did; I am not sure how many generations have passed for the dragons of Arador
Mmmm well Ainu cannot die. They can only be sent to the Undying lands, right? They are destined to be on Arda until the end of time.
Or "The End Times". So, the old Maia/Dragons would still be around, though they could also reproduce.
Their bodies can be killed, though. And then they have to make a new body, which takes time and energy
Are dragons not allowed in the Undying lands because of their taint?
I see three dragons in the Undying Lands right now
I meant.... >.> ...after their bodies die. Or the halls where 'dead ainu' go, more specifically.
There are dragons in Tirion
I took it to understand once an Ainu was 'out of comisssion' he couldn't come back until the End Times
I don't think that is necessarily true
:) I'm learning, teach us oh great one!
Out of commission?
Once their body dies.
I don't remember many cases in the stories where that happened
Not to "good" ainur
Like a clipped wing??
Yes, but what about the 'bad' ainur? Like dragons.
The evil ones do seem to slowly lose their abilities, first to change shape, then to reform their bodies
The form follows consciousness
Is that over time, or with subsequent deaths?
I had assumed that, being out of touch with Eru, they didn't recharge their batteries, and so gradually ran out of power. But that isn't stated anywhere.
a fair assumption
Sauron was "killed" several times
But he was also trapped and a Vala not a Maiar like the dragons are assumed to be. But when he died, he didn't go to the hall of 'dead Ainu' from what I understand, either.
Sauron was a Maia
Oh sauron xD sorry I read Melkor... I'm obsessed with that 'bad ass' I take it back ^^ Wasn't he 'killed for good' though? at one point?
After the Ring was destroyed?
We were left with the impression that he didn't have enough power left to reform a body,and he was now just a disembodied, powerless, spirit
But is that a forever thing?
Well he is still around as a spirit.
After all this time, though, couldn't he reform?
and can't return to Illuvatar or go outside of Ea until the End Times
and then . . redemption?
I'm sure he could return to Illuvatar if he WANTED to
Oh...I meant form his body again
Well in the SIlmarillion it says those who came to Ea had to stay in Ea.
He can't leave Ea, the created world, until the end, no, none of us can
Which is why only Manwe talked to Illuvatar and passed his words on to the others.
right. Derecho and Renlu, are you following this at all?
Yeah... sorry Im talking so much >.<
This is very heavy stuff for people who aren't used to the universe, as we discuss the finer points of spirit-beings
I am following it as well as my mind can follow
Only vaguely, not being familiar with the beings spoken of.
If you have any questions as we talk, ask! :)
Maybe if we moved back to dragons . . ?
If dragons became mortal, does that mean there was a pariring between ainu and mortal?
They became mortal?
We don't really know what the children would be like, if two ainur mated. No examples of such children, in the books
I know when Ainu and mortals mate, the children become more and more mortal.... but I dont know of any Ainu couples having kids without messing with mortals.
And, where would they get new Ainur souls for the kids?
There are shades of mortality? I would have thought that one could be only one or the other.
but how can dragons and mortals mate?
so this is unexplored territory
Well, when an Ainur and a Mortal mate, they have mortal children with ainur qualities.... mild powers, etc. and those are weakened in further generations.
When the children of ainu and mortals are born...what kind of souls do they have?
Fifi Wickentower: shudders*
What kind of souls do mortals have, for that matter?
Mortal souls xD Badum CHING
Mortal what, though?
Well... maybe when they were being modified (the 'bad' maiar)... their souls changed too?
A mortal soul is evolutionary and over endless lifetimes can earn their immortality
Is that how it is in Tolkien?
That doesn't sound like Tolkien's view
Mortals are mortals.Their lives are finite and frought with free will.
Elves were also endless unless killed. Their life spans were forever, if uninterrupted. Elves and Mortals are not the same in that department
until the end of an age
I wish Belanos were here, she might know something about dragon souls
I'm sure she would . . or Kratholis
Who? A dragon philosopher?
The Ancient of Ancients - the Chronicleer of dragon history. He lives in Arador and is a close friend
He might know, then
He meant to be here last week too. He and belenos are the true experts
So, we don't really know.
Kratholis escaped from Mordor. And has much to say about mating habits and hatchlings and eggs
Ohhh, he sounds like just the expert we need. Maybe we can get him here some week to explain to us
Yes. He very rarely leaves his cave (blind) but was willing to come here :)
Or perhaps we could meet there, if that was easier for him
Maybe we could do a field trip to Arador
How do dragons feel about having company?
Maybe he doesn't want a crowd stomping into his cave
Indeed, depends on mood
Mostly a solitary lot but these dragons are kind and don't eat their freiends
that's ... nice ...
not eating friends is good
well . . . . i don't see that happening . . . an appointed time would be good
Selfish creatures though we are, considerations can be made!
Would you like to speak to him about it, FIfi?
Ynd there are others who live in the Royal Lands. Yes . . be happy too . . last week he was disappointed. And then you could see the beauty of the land and see the beauty which Ihilia and Morchant have created.
Derecho, that question came up last week ... would you describe dragons as "selfish"?
Would a dragon ever do something "unselfish"?
Belenos, as she rps Ithilia is not exactly unselfish.
Well all have things that make us unique, selfish though we may be we find other things to care about
Not impossible, but when you get down to it, a truly unselfish act is a rare occurance in any race. Just most rare of all in dragons.
That does not mean she is bad, however.
You can be selfish and not bad. Knowing your 'limitations' is half the battle :P remember, free will and all.
She could have gone off by herself instead of leading other dragons to safety
Most acts of "good" are still selfish, upon consideration. You do them for a reward, or do avoid the costs of regret.
There is safety in numbers...could have been self preservation.
If what you want and what others want is not in conflict, there is no problem
Or out of guilt or for glory. etc. But not ALL acts of kindness are selfish
Not all, no. But less so than most would think, in my opinion.
The good for good's sake and non selfish reasons is an ideal. anyway
Some can aspire to that, though.
Entering chat range: Kratholis Vanistok (11m)
ACK GIANT DRAGON
Kratholis Vanistok: Where?
Renlu Roeth chuckles One of ours arrives in their true form
Kratholis Vanistok: hello
This is my Grandfather (adopted)
It is an honor to meet you
And hello dear Fifi, thanks for telling me about comming here
Kratholis, if you could enlighten us ...
What would you wish to hear?
We were trying to figure out about the origins of dragons
Dragons are personal creations of Eru. At least I am told
As Maiar, or as a different breed? Are you, or your ancestors, Maiar?
If I can remember I would probably say so, but it's a little foggy. But, probably not. None the less, it is possiable, dragons are creatures of unimaginagle age, so there is a chance
In the Silmarillion.... Dragons are not mentioned at creation. At all. Ainu, Elves and Men are, and also Dwarves. But not dragons.
Isn't there mention in the ancient scrolls?
We don't have a complete catalog, Ossy
True, I'm just saying.
Perhaps beings such as dragons were not mentioned in the mix because so many more were in creation
Or because the Silmarillion was recorded by elves, who were a bit biased
Is there a book of Dragon Lore?
I'm working on comprimising one
As it is, such a book is being written page by page, day by day. And seeing as the days are never ending, I am constantly in a state of writing.
Would you care to comment on the relationship between dragons and Morgoth?
That I can answer on a personal note. I waited on the slopes of Mount Doom for his orders long before the creation of Shelob, As for other dragons, it was merely prespective of what they saw of him
Would it be prying to ask how you came into his service?
Kratholis Vanistok chuckles and shakes his head. "Not at all, I enjoy telling stories"
Fifi Wickentower: nods nods nods
It was short after my hatching that I sought him out, personally I saw him differently from other dragons. I thought he was looking for a different way to shape the world, and not physically I mean. For a majority of my younger years, I helped organize what you could say was an army at that time, and when he started experimenting with his abominations, I waited idly by for his orders
Well, as it was, I was more short on thoughts in my youth, my loyalty wasnt questioned and no order went without completeion. It was however when Morgoth created Shelob that things started going wrong for me. Back then I did my best to keep away from shelob and actually stayed away, It was till Morgoth became entrapped by Shelob that forced me to leave"
Where did you go after this?
Strange as it may sound I went to the void, from there I met a void dragon that tought me how to jump from one realm to another, from there, those are different stories, unless you wish to hear more
We try to stick to Tolkien :)
As you wish, but from there, you might get better information from the history books
Do you know of dragons from before Morgoth?
Kratholis Vanistok nods. "Very few, such vague memories, but I did recognize my parents, it was very long ago mind you'
Did you know of any dragons who did not follow Morgoth?
Of course, my parents were two of them, but many more fled, others tried to avoid the mess.
Another question that arose tonght was, if your parents were also ancients . . did they ever allude to times before?
I doubt they were ancients, probably a younger pairing than most, there were a much fewer number of those when I was younger, word of them was far and inbetween
Ahh. Did your parents have wings? The earliest mention in Tolkien of a dragon was one without wings
Kratholis Vanistok chuckles and nods. "Yes they did, fifi"
Have you any knowledge of dragon souls?
I think I know of the dragon you speak of, the wingless one. As of Dragon Souls, there are many philosophies of them, one in particular I favor.
Lihan Taifun whispers "a dragon philospher, I told you!"
Kratholis Vanistok chuckles a little. So you mean the wingless dragon Glaurung? The father of Dragons, Fifi?
Yes, Grandfather that one
Ahh yes, he was the first to be captured by Morgoth
Aha!!!! . . . . .where and how nvmd - not canon ^^
I cant exactally call where and how, even the Silmirilian is vague on that matter. As for Dragon's Spirits, What I was told by and elder dragon is something I hold dear. 'When a dragon dies, it's spirit doesnt truely leave this world. It's spirit continously binds with nature, to provide hope for the future"
An amazing thought
What causes a dragon to die? besides being killed as happened to Tolkien's dragons
Dragons do not wear out with age, do they?
A dragon can die just as an elf can, but some dragons are not immune to age
Weakened by Morgoth?
Perhaps, but that is an interesting theory
Life forced eroded after eons of negative energy?
As I said, an interesting theory
Did we have more questions for the Ancient?
So... we're down to three plus me...
We started a couple hours ago lol
Perhaps we should adjourn for the night
Should we pick something for next time?
If we have any ideas for next time,sure
I would like to know more about the difference betwen Tolkien elves and 'regular' elves
One definition verses hundreds of others?
hmmm, yes, you would have to know what "regular" elves were like
That's my question lol
Well Tolken's elves are merely an awakened race of imortals, everything else is just a race or subrace
His elves are tall
I'm afraid I am about to fall asleep in my chair here
Am I that boring?
Not at all, you have been keeping me awake, against all odds! This curved earth is hard to get used to. So much easier in the old days when the world was flat.
It was an honor having you visit, Kratholis
I am glad to have come, just wish I had been around earlier
We are here every Wednesday