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Wednesday, November 4, 2009

Dragons, part 1

Is it really Wednesday already?
Fifi has collected links so we can all read up on dragons before the discussion:

Tolkien Discussion Group
November 4, 2009
Topic: Dragons

BelenosStormchaser Magic
Fifi Wickentower
Lihan Taifun
AelKennyr Rhiano
Malakyte Thorne
Ondine Ninetails
Ossy Portocarrero
Tuatha Shippe

Hello, Belanos! I'm so glad you could be here to be our dragon expert! ooooh! Fifi is a dragon tonight!
You are going to be overwhelmed by us
I was just admiring your dragon

My tail got caught in a tree
You need to grow bigger, so you can pull it out more easily
Someday I'll be big
Of course, dear Lihan Taifun pats the dragon reassuringly. I do hope the big dragons don't eat the little ones
Fifi Wickentower smiles at the kind gesture
Just keep eating your red meat and you will be fine
me too!
hehe... noooo... although some myths would have you believe we do
The tavern keeps me well nourished :D
hehe... yes, I believe fox tends to leave steak out for the dragons, does he not?
yes - so thoughtful . . always lots!!
I think it's a self preservation thing actually.. *chuckles*
Foxes are red meat, too?
Who would nibble on the Fox lol That would be suicide

What are we discussing tonight?
Can't you tell by looking at Fifi? :-)
AelKennyr Rhiano looks at Fifi..." Ummm...Barney?"
I'm sure Belanos can tell us all about Dragons, just from memory!
We are big and scaley and enjoy eating swans.. *nods nods nods*
and sitting on treasure
Actually, there is some debate it seems about the origins of them.
I noticed that. There is some precedent for thinking you are maiar
Although I've often heard it mentioned here that dragons would be Maia that Morgoth corrupted, some of what I read in those links give rise to some questions.. for instance, when Glaurung first emerged from Angbrand he was said to be too young, which would make one wonder that if he were the first, how was he 'young'? Was it meaning young as in juvenile.. or young as in young and inexperienced as a dragon..
or if not Maia, another 'noble' form

{Several people arrive.}

So...contrary to what some believe, there were dragons in Tolkien's world, right?
Malakyte Thorne grins, oh yes of course. Smaug, at least. If there was one there must have been others.
How could anyone say there were not?
Yes... there some not beleive that?
Yes, Belenos, some do
That's most interesting.. how do they justify that?
Dragons are even mentioned in passing in Lord of the Rings
hmm its been a while since i read it.. i dont remember that but can well believe it
Just as some automatically assume that Ainu must be rped as deities.
I believe there are only 4 dragons named in Tolkiens work
I am curious about who they were.. aside from Smaug of course
Gandalf mentions that several of the Rings of Power given to the dwarves ended up melted by dragons
ahh .. it is said that dragons fire is much hotter than normal fire
There was Glaurung.. and of course Ancalagon..
There are "purists" who take those four to be representative of how all dragons my be rped in Tolkien and so won't accept rp if dragons act in a contrary manner.
Smaug of couse, but also Glaurung,
Ancalagon and
Ahhh yes.. I know of some who believe all tolkien dragons should be evil.. but had not realised there were some who did not believe there were dragons at all
Scatha.. that was the one I could not recall..
Ancalagon was black and the first dragon to fly
yes... and the biggest I believe
In most stories dragons are evil
I went blank on Scatha, as well.
I only remembered because I read Fifi's notes this afternoon
but was the second dragon mentioned
Malakyte, most stories, being....?
Are these dragons ever mentioned in the book from the earlier time?
The same question Belenos had occured to me about the dragon, Glaurung, being too young at first
Well most stories.. there are those where dragons are the monsters and those where dragons are intellegent and good
Malakyte, you are talking about folk tales in general?
ahh i am talking about modern stories and folk tales.. modern movies.. etc. excepting of course the Pern stories, and those like Dragon Heart and Eragon
The archetype of the snake the catacombs , where the first Roman Christians met, there are carvings of dragons and grifphons which serve to inform the early christians that those areas were meeting places for the early christians and were safe.
How odd they use dragosn and gryphons as a symbol of safety
To us it is odd
I never heard that, yes, surprising
Well in some christian writings the dragon is another word for satan..
But we are looking at it with a modern perspective, knowing all the folklore and stories that came later.
Yes strange in that the dragon was a pagan symbol
hard to find a symbol that hadn't be used before
of course Christianity used pagan symbols.. as i have heard.. watching shows about the origins of some of our holidays..
Here is the you know what the word "pagan" originally meant to the Romans?
meant "rural"
Yes, a pagan was a country bumpkin.
ahh.. interesting
Whereas Christianity was more an urban thing
So it is Not really surprsing when you know that for them to use dragons and griphons. If I wanted to make sure my country Christians friends are directed to the right place, I would use symbols known to them
And Christianity was a new religion, it did not have a wealth of symbology all its own.
ppl didn't read
I suppose what I meant when I said it was odd, was that it's always struck me as interesting how many cultures world wide have dragon myths in them... in one form or another... and this was one I did not know about...
Dragons go way back in China
and Chinese dragons are always good dragons
although they must be placated at times ti continue the good will
But it was good you said that..because we sometimes forget that we have a different viewpoint than others at different historical times.
And in western mythologies, dragons were not always bad
Yes.. I believe that the trilogy was written from a western perspective..
Although Tolkien was familiar with a wide range of mythologies
He had a love and fascination with dragons
I have heard that the celts believed dragons were good.. is this true?
The celts belived that dragons were "ancient" being and very wise...and that when they were sighted, they were a foreshadow of great changes and events.
I see.. so not such a negative view
Not at all
Well great changes can be good or bad...
just as "wisdom" can be
but the dragons didnt cause them.. they just forshadowed them
an omen
so as messengers they were neither good nor bad in that sense
Would anyone like a quote from the Professor on dragons?
yes, please
"But the land of Merlin and Arthur was better than these, and best of all the nameless North of Sigurd of the Volsungs, and the prince of all dragons. Such lands were pre-eminently desirable. I never imagined that the dragon was of the same order as the horse. And that was not solely because I saw horses daily, but never even the footprint of a worm. The dragon had the trade-mark Of Fairie written upon him. In whatever world he had his being it was an Other-world. Fantasy, the making or glimpsing of Other-worlds, was a profound desire.I desired dragons with a profound desire."
But he desired dragons in what sense.
He, as a kid, thought dragons were cool
Perhaps because dragons are so long-lived - their natural cycles of coming and going
You know it's funny... I sort of intuitively 'get' what he means when he said that.. that he desired dragons... but just don't ask me to explain it..
coincided with 'our'great changes
It's like you are drawn to them
It leaves it wide open to the individual's subjective feelings, doesn't it?
He wanted the world to be the kind of place where dragons could exist
Interesting . they had the trade- mark of faerie about them
But, Fifi, elves are long-live with cycles of coming and going...yet the dragon captures our imagination in a completely different way.
This was the preface to his statement :In "On Fairy Stories" (delivered as an Andrew Lange Lecture in 1938) Tolkien confides that as a child he was little moved by Alice in Wonderland or Treasure Island, and goes on to say he desired dragons
hmm well dragons are symbols of power..
It's more than just power though I think..
And elves are . .playful and not scary?
BelenosStormchaser Magic snickers at Fifi
power and wisdom.. perhaps a being more alien than a biped form.. with reptilian wisdom.. something that is a bit detached from the human point of view
Well, he is describing his reaction to the stories he heard as a child
Something that beathes fire and is huge with big teeth would be archetypal
Something much older than humanity or the elves
Some might suggest an ancient ancestor reptilian race
He also remarked at another time :
"A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men's imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. Even to-day (despite the critics) you may find men not ignorant of tragic legend and history, who have heard of heroes and indeed seen them, who yet have been caught by the fascination of the worm."
a symbol of the power of nature perhaps.. ?
more of power of spirit i would think
depends on the story.. some stories have dragons as simply cunning beasts
another archetypal attribute of the snake
some as guardians of earth
The first dragon in Tolkiens writings did not fly, and so was confined to the land . . I don't recall whether legs were mentioned
That is interesting that he has different kinds of dragons
Perhaps it was based more on the eastern dragons?
I think is was evolving because of Morgoth
I dont think I can associate them with 'retilian beings'
Do you mean that as he saw that flying would be a good attribute, he bred them so?
flying is always good <grins>
The first was a fire-drake . .Glaurung and is called the Father of Dragons. It was Ancalagon the Black who was the first to fly
So what are dragons.. most consider dragons as reptiles
Dragons are dragons.. *grins*
Because....they feel more divine...retilians are not divine at all
hmm with scales and they lay eggs.. hmm perhaps like the warm blooded dinosaurs.
In some cultures reptiles are divine. The snake is worshiped.
I think that like humans share a common ancestry with certain other mammals, Dragons may share one with reptiles, like snakes

Was there a "mother of dragons"?
not that I've seen mentioned
probably.. but like most females in history, not written about.. :)
Glaurung couldn't have started the next generation all by himself
Perhaps it wasn't so much physically a father
Perhaps the first to be 'succesfully' perverted by the Dark Lord

well..the snake has more complex meanings....and symbolism too
We do not look on them as beings really...we see them more like Seraphin
Perhaps they are evolved past reptiles but retain some characteristics
You lost me, Tuatha? Who is 'we'?
Do elves have a reptilean brain ?hrhr
World myths...snake is more symbol of life forces
We who have been exposed to the story of the fall of man can have a deep cultural bias agaisnt snakes...
Reptilians are beings
A lot of people assure that the snake is evil because it is encouraging Eve to partake of the fruit of knowledge, but some see that the snake being benevolent.
Obviously the snake was a potent symbol, to have gotten into that story
There are those who say there is a highly evolved reptilean race on earth and/or coming and going regularily
You mean politicians?
Yes, I have heard that urban myth
yes...we might learn more about those creatures in the not so distant future
a future discussion "The lifespan of a politician in Tolkien."

So.....four dragons do not a representation of a whole race make, wouldn't you agree?
Those four might be "typical" dragons have directions...thenyou have elementals
Is anything 'typical' in Tolkien?
sorry...wasnt sticking to Tolkien
Sure, Tolkien defines "typical", and then goes on to write about people quite unlike what he says is typical
But there was a fifth dragon mentioned, but in a separate story. And it was not typical of the others at all. It was in the story about farmer giles..and was cowardly and a bully
Yes, but is that connected to the Tolkien universe?
I thought someone else could tie their fingers in knots typing that name.. :D
I always liked that story!
Tell us ...what was his fate?
Not in the same universe, and he ended up an ally of the human hero
Still Tolkien does provide yet another encounter with a dragon, presumably outside of the framework of Middle-earth in a delightful story called Farmer Giles of Ham. In this story, a common farmer, Giles, first encounters a lost giant, whom he accidentally routes.
Perhaps those 4 were pointed out because they were not normal.. they distinguished themselves in some way..
Perhaps they were pointed out because they were the most evil of the evil
I think Malakyte may be onto something
In any story there are always the key players
t is not the person who is average and everyday that draws our attention...
or because, as minions of Morgoth, they were relevant to the story, whereas the dragons who were minding their own business didn't enter the story
good point
like women often did not.
It is the person who stands out...either with their inate goodness or their misdeeds.
Just as the elves who never answered the call to come to Aman never enetered the story
"ding, dong...Aman calling...".....grins
They were not specified as the only dragons
I think dragons were considered a race like most races.. they had the usual way of coming into being..
The stork brought them?
There seems to be different versions about the origins of dragons
hehe must have been a dragon stork ehh?
or a bloody big one
VERY BIG stork
Well maybe .. dragon eggs dont have to be really huge
or a patch of very big cabbages
Fifi would fit in about a 1 meter egg, and she may have grown some since she hatched
I've grown a lot!!! I'm Much bigger now lol

Honestly...I feel Dragons have souls....reptilians do not,though retilians may be immortal
Why don't reptiles?
Dragons certainly act like they have souls
yes.. there are some that say everything has a soul..
because....they thought they could wield life like Melkor
Reptiles did?
immortal...but not eternal
BelenosStormchaser Magic is getting confused at how we keep jumping in and out of Tolkien
me too
Just tell us what mythology or folklore you are referring to, please.
Just as long as we know when we are talking about Tolkien and when we aren't
no offence meant.. I was just getting a little lost..'s description
I want to hear about other mythologies and literature...I just need clues
Though in myth, they were likened to gods....yet, I dont think they were gods at all
In which myth?
a geez...many cultures speak of these beingsthat live underground
Living underground doesn't make you a dragon
8 foot tall, intelligent and perhaps we are tasty with a nice aioli
but.....Dragons are different, very different
Its just my opinion
fava beans
It may be that there is a basis in fact for the dragon myths, but when you don't have the language or skills to explain what seems to way beyond understanding
Someone was doing peyote and stumbled across a gila monster?
BelenosStormchaser Magic is going to BITE the elf very soon
Well.... I can assure you the people in the east did not have fava beans, and they still came up with dragons
Can we move back to the topic at hand? Dragons in Tolkien? This is getting way beyond 'a tangent' people.
Then exageration, deification etc is what happens
Tolkien is better
If we wanted to talk other myths... wouldn't we be the Myth discussion group?
Well, I don't mind if there is a coorrelation....
Its ok if its to help say "well maybe this is where he got the idea"

Malakyte Thorne does not know much about the dragons in Tolkien
So, what do we know?
I've been quickly skimming those links Fifi so kindly supplied us with, refreshing the memory
some fly, some breathe fire; some are partial to treasure; several have hypnotice powers
I think, Malakyte, that we are left with supposition with Tolkien
If they were merely mentioned is there much to know about them?
I think so
It's interesting how few propose we originated from maia.. but say that we were created or bred
Well, according to the Silmarillion, orcs and such were created from elfs which Melkor corrupted.
Also, aren't there elves, who due to long exposure, changed because of it? Like.. the gray skina nd such? Can't the same be said for Maia = Dragons?
Remember, Belenos when Elu and Melian married, they produced children, who in turn reproduced.
mmm, that's true too..
So dragons could have descended from Maiar
I believe so, something divine indeed
One of those quotes said something about dragons being "great spirits"?
Is the evil effect of Melkor on the womb, then... like birth defects on babies when mothers drink and do drugs while pregnant?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods Wow, Ossy...that is an interesting take....
hmm who was Maiar?
They are celestial beings...akin to angels
Maiar are lesser Ainu.. as Ael said, akin to angels
I'm just asking... I mean, I don't know.
Soul-less melkor originals
I dont think they had this kind of studies at the time that this was being written
It is good question
I would not say soulless..
If you know anything about the hiearchy of Angels as put out by the bible, there are two kinds:Archangels (The Valar) and regular run of the mill angels (Maiar)
Dragons are divine
I'm commenting,Ossy, not asking
Dragons, as far as I understood it, where Ainu that were in some way corrupted by the dark powers of Melkor.
In some ways I've thought of what he did to create dragons as a form of torture and brainwashing to change a maia to a dragon
or rather.. Maiar that went with him when he went into the darkness.
yes !! fallen angels
Actually, there were sevel classes of angels in Judeo Christian mythology.
well yes, but the ones comparable to Ainu are the two I mentioned
and if you think about the change in an elf to an orc
so some Dragons are fallen and someare this correct?
no no no Tuatha.. some maia were fallen and some were not. Some of the fallen maia became dragons
Of course, after the first generation, dragons raised by Melkor, or by nasty dragons, would likely be nasty themselves
My character, Osse, fell to the guile of Melkor for a time, but was at a later time redeemed
Imagine what form the dragon had prior
I think dragons can have similar changes of heart, and therefore not all dragons are bad
I cannot see why that cannot be so, Ossy.
Absolutely - i know dragons who manged to escape from the dark and are now living free
yes... I think that is possible too Ossy.. there is a thing called free will.. and even though that can be perverted for a time, it has always the potential to assert itself
ahh so dragons are evil
yes, it all matters according to the inate goodness of an individual
If dragons are sentient...and are descended from Maiar.....that is very possible
Anyone can be corrupted, but anyone can be uncorrupted, in the same light.
hmmm...big topic there
[2009/11/04 20:27] Tuatha Shippe: lol
I meant all dragons are evil? statement
er.. that is then all dragons were evil..
No, the origins of all dragons is rooted in evil.
yes.. malakyte.. we all were..
But not all dragons are evil.
Because they fell to Malkor's influence...does that make them evil?
still a blanket statement :D
some remained so
like orcs
Thats why you say the origin.
or misguided...subverted...brainwashed.
all have the potential to reform
The four examples that we have ... would we say Scatha and Smaug were "evil"? or just "self-centered"?
They had lost their divine connection
I would say that Smaug is selfish, petty, and self centered.
perhaps wicked? .. taht's slightly different.. :D
Isn't the root of evil self-centered?
Those two don't seem to have been acting on anyone's orders
hmm well Smaug if you look at it was afraid of being robbed as he robbed the dwarves..
But there are also gradations of evil
Yes Ossy.. jsut because morgoth was evil doesn't mean everyone had to be THAT evil to be considered evil
another big topic lol
"the nature of evil"
Maybe we should start a philosophers group :)
It is in the nature of dragons to covet gold.. riches..
It's in the natures of most being actually Malakyte.humans, dwarves..elves? .. *grins*
Indeed Belenos
The whole thing about Smaug was his treasure
Well that is the part we saw in the book Malakyte
What is to say there was not more to him than that? After you're a live for a long time, things begin to lose focus as other things become more important
well yes.. but dragons are well known to go after treasure.. perhaps in that they represent greed
hehe.. he could have just been trying to be a good provider for a prostpective mate.. :D
Maybe that is just where he was at the time, due to his long age.
and again, men and dwarves do not?
Why would dragons wantto hoard gold and such?...oh good answer, Belenos
But I think we are getting into too many gray areas about this
mates.. because eating it makes their scales strong too maybe.
In honesty Tuatha, why would men, or dwarves want to hoard it?
It builds character
Men don't live so long
We're suppose to elaborate, Ossy
They tend to focus procreation as a continuation of their species. Therefore, hording may be present in a few, but mostly I surmise their need for wealth is to provide for their family units. Smaug was a solitary dragon.
So hording would be a survival necessity
He provided for no one and lived for ever (since he is Maia), and therefore it was purely greed... his corruption into evil.
He was the last of Tolkiens great dragons
Now that's an interesting word you used Ossy.. 'need' Was it a need? Or was it something they wanted.. or even something they earnt?
I mean, if I'd earnt gold by defending some village against an evil tyrant I'd not want to then surrender that gold to just anyone who wants to take it. Perahps they are just saving their hard earned wages
Well... there was the king in the Trilogy who was being hypnotized? or maligned?
After all, what are they to spend it on? Cookies?
... that person was greedy for selfish reasons.
Smaug stole the gold from the dwarves..
I like to roll in my hoard . . it keeps my scales supple. And it's my future security
Yes but Smaugh was not a dragon who would do something like that, so he probably dind't EARN his gold. He killed or stole for it
This is why the dwarves were coming back to the mountain
But then does one thief who happens to make it into the news, make all their race theives?
Is gold a symbol of power? not just for providing
to men it is
for dragons we dont really know because that is not specified
ok, let me make an argument: Let us assume I am a dragon. How do I eat? I hunt and kill or people send maidens out to me :P How do I roost? I find a cave big enough and I sit inside it....
And if a dragon has something others want - doeasn't that give him power?
BelenosStormchaser Magic giggles madly
The dragon in the story was the bad guy in the eyes of the dwarves and men
What makes you think we eat the maidens.. *grins*
Dragons are OUTSIDE the capitalist system. They don't NEED money for anything.
Its pretty and they like it. but it doesnt provide for anything.
but it looks pretty, gold and jewels
Therefore it's a whim, a superficial desire.
And you hunt deer and bunnies and icky rats
Its very pretty
Men want gold because it helps pay for things, its a sign of wealth and power.
Elves don't NEED gold, either
I like shiny things
So men want to steal our pretties..
But in a society where money is necessary to survive... you NEED gold.Yes but the elves give it away, they're not greedy
depends on the elf
When they discovered pearls in the sea, they gave them away like one might give candy on halloween. This is true, not at elves are uncorrupted either.
Its all speculation what dragons use their riches for .. though it was stated in the story that the treasure made a shield ont he belly of Smaug
So I think you are leading to the conclusion that draogns do not have hoards of gold because of greed? or for wealth purposes... but because they are pretty, yes?
That seems too..juvenile
.... that is greed. Wanting something simply because you want it is greed.
no it's not.. it's... collecting.. :D
They didnt want it for power.
why? ppl like flowers
no.. greed is excessive want
It is excessive for dragons to want gold
Collecting COULD be greed
They dont NEED it for anything. therefore it IS excessive
Who says so? Excessive to want something you like?
In large quantities? when other people need it?
See, there you go.. you assume a need has to be a physical need
Oh no... not at all Belenos. By all means keep on 'collecting' </sarcasm>
Isn't that a judgement - who knows the hidden truths of dragons and the energy that is food to them
Like humans and their art? is that all greed?
Maybe they did want it forpower...because when humans and dwarves lost their gold to the dragon....the humans and dwarves felt ...less power?
Peope who collect art are people with money, who want to exemplify their wealth and therefore power. So it is a type of greed yes
ppl collect everything from salt and pepper shakers to cars to books
ahhh.. such a hardened and cynical young person... what about those who buy a picture simply because it pleases the eye
Does that make them evil, greedy hoarders?
Maybe the dragon knew how to really piss off the humans and dwarves...
That is not collecting. That is buying a picture
Taking their pretty gold from them
There are so many examples of how people do things because it looks nice..... no physical need... just looks nice.. it is not greed
Of course
Fifi Wickentower: mutters to self put new lock on cave door
So, might we say we don't really know the dragons' motives about their treasure?
Well I dont think Tolkien was explicit
yes Lihan
So..there's room for the creative here
But he did, to the dragons who were 'bad', imply a corruption (such as greed, or selfishnes) at the root of their behaviour
This is pure speculation based on limited knowledge
It didnt matter to the story why the dragon took the mountain, only thathe did
Of course.. *grins*.. after having played devil's advocate about it being anything other than greed.. it's good to realise we should not assume we know why they did it
But he did kill to get it.. whether that was a disregard for biped life or what is also unknown
And the stories are all being told from the human or dwarvish point of view
We musn't be elfnocentric
Lihan Taifun chokes on her tea
Well sure, dragons don't have much need for history as they know it all themselves xD
The reason why the dwarves and humans HAVE histories is because they ARENT ARUOND for long enough and have to pass it off to their decendants
Do dragons hold storytelling events?
[BelenosStormchaser Magic snorts.. and no humans, dwarves or elves ahve ever killed for gold?
Sure they have Belenos, but then they usually wear it or spend it. And you can't wear anywhere NEAR as much gold as is in any appropriate dragon's hoard. Being a human/dwarf is expensive. So all that gold they killed for... woosh spent on something
This dragon was wearing it
Well if we had opposing thumbs we'd make things we could wear too..:P
So instead we have to just sit and look at it.. or sit ON it
I don't know if I can agree with that logic, Ossy.
You don't have to agree. I'm just throwing points out there for people to discard or latch on to xD I'm not emotionally invested in this conversation ^^
It was imbedded in Smaugs underbelly.. it was only a small spot that didnt have the treasure covering it that the man was able to shoot the dragon and bring him down
Most dragons didn't do that though Malakyte, that we know of
Why was there such a description of it then?
Come on Belenos! Show us your tummy! Roll over for scritchings!
ok... there you go.. now scritch
Ossy Portocarrero rubs hard with both hands
WHO IS A GOOD DRAGON!!! WHO IS A GOOOOOOD DRAGOn! thats right... Yoouuuuu are!!
BelenosStormchaser Magic: who's a good little slave.. *grins*
Ossy Portocarrero kicks her. ungrateful beast
who's your draggy?
hehe... and don't forget the back too
No I'm done. My arms are tired. You glutton
ahhh.. that was good

Do we want to continue discussing dragons next week? This was such a lively discussion
It would suit me fine
I want to make one last point before we break off
Dragons, because of how they were created, have a core of evil inside of them. This does NOT mean all dragons are bad? Why? Because....We are born with baser instincts. Things that are inate to us created by our Id at birth or childhood... or in the case of dragons, creation. With time and determination, WILL POWER and INTELLIGENCE or COGNITIVE REASON can over-power these baser desires.
Oh alas.. ossy has stumbled across my own thoughts on the matter... we have free will and reason... so no matter what is within us, we can always choose how we wish to be
Which is why Alcoholics can go Sober and Kleptos can not 'steal' and so forth. SO Belenos, while being a good dragon
hehe.. outwardly
may STLL have these urges and desires but she can CHOOSE not to act upon them
just ask the swans of alqualonde
My, swans....sniff, sniff
Which is how we diferenciate between good and bad, not by how we think, which is internal, but by what we do which is external.
She did eat my dog
I did not.. I just threatened to...thought about it
Does that make her evil?
Angus? Poor Angus?
BelenosStormchaser Magic was tempted
A dragon needs to eat, after all.
So...we will continue the discussion next week?
Yes, I think so.. :)
Is some finer point we want to pursue?
DO we know that dragons were 'created evil"?
Yes we do know
Would morgoth create anything good?
Am not sure
No we don't - it is suggested they were corrupted, from a noble pure race, just as elves were turned to orcs
It is only suggested?Is there no CERTAINTY in TOLKIEN?!
But that is not implied. The elf to orc thing is said explicitly
Wouldn't that depend on whether dragons were created by Morgoth, or whether they are corrupted maiar?
Yes there is ossy.. the one certainty in tolkien is that osse was a procratinating henpecked maia.. :D
Dragons are redeemable
Anyone with will is redeemable. Dragons were not created. Dragons were transformed Orcs were re-made, or re-created.There is the difference
very valid point
a mortal creator cannot instill a soul
When I think of Orcs..I dont believe the Elven soul remains
Ok, next week we can continue with the origins of dragons. Great discussion tonight