Tolkien Discussion Group
April 29, 2010
Topic: Simlarillion Book Chapter: Aulë and Yavanna
Present:
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Shawn Daysleeper
Fifi Wickentower
Dominique Darkwatch
Summary:
The conversation between Aulë and Yavanna is one of the few recorded "marital spats" of the Valar. We never get to hear what Uinen said to Ossë, when Ossë rebelled. These stories are more in the style of Valar-as-GrecoRoman-gods, rather than Valar-as-projections-of- Ilúvatar.
Aulë acted a bit guilty, hiding from the other Valar that he was making the dwarves. On some level, he must have suspected that the other Valar, and Ilúvatar, wouldn't approve.
Although Aulë thought he was acting on his own, and gets called on the carpet by Ilúvatar, there is the strong suggestion that Ilúvatar had planned for Aulë and the Dwarves all along. So what does that say about free will and the plans of Ilúvatar?
Didn't Aulë sing the Dwarves in the Great Song? At first, the Ainur didn't realize that the Great Song was creating a world, so the Ainur wouldn't have necessarily have realized how various parts of the Song would look in the world.
The description of the origin of Ents sounds almost like the Ents are Maiar, which is not how we usually think of Ents.
Why did Aulë create Dwarf Fathers without Dwarf Mothers? Was he that unclear on how physical beings operate? He really should have asked Yavanna about that part.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Our continent is called Arda, Shawn, and across the various sims, we have several different rps, including two different Tolkien based ones...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I read the chapter in the Silmarillion. Interesting relationship between Aule and Yavanna.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . in what way?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Once the dwarves are created, remember what was said?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . They will need wood?? lots of wood?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes. Yavanna loves tree and nature
Dominique Darkwatch: . There did to seem to be this striving between them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "You should have told me about your plans"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . exactly
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . He didn't care that the plants were her 'babies'
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always wondered why he hid what he did, even from her.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He acted a little guilty about his plans
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and I am the only one who noticed the 7 dwarves????
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . It could be he feared Illuvater
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . worrying that the other Valar wouldn't approve
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . sneaky
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . to fear Illuvatar implies he believe he was doing something contrary to the creator's plans, doesn't it?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He worried they wouldn't approve, but did he wonder if he was doing something wrong?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yep
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so didn't he sort of rebell against Illuvatar?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, but he was quick to come back into the fold
Dominique Darkwatch: . He was invoking his own his own will, similar to what Melkor had done
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . precisely, Dominique. So that got me to rethinking the question of Ainur free will again.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and he felt guilty enough to try to hide it from the other Valar, which implies he supspected he was rebelling. He suspected he was taking his authority too broadly
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And he is not the only one who rebels...remember Osse. He rebelled too, at one point
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, under Melkor's influence. Osse started to fall under Melkor's influence
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Melkor promised him Ulmo's position
Dominique Darkwatch: . The dwarves were not the children of Iluvatar...Aule seemed to want children of his own
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He did. "Impatient" the story says
Dominique Darkwatch: . So there is this vanity that comes into play, too
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We have no discourse between Osse and Unien to see her thoughts on his rebellion, like we do with Aule and Yavanna, Aule and Yavanna is one of our few "maritial spats" among the Valar.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I bet Uinen has a few things to say. Anyone who could keep Osse in line must have been some strong character
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so Osse gets his old job back, and Aule gets to keep his dwarves, and Melkor goes off to be a bad guy
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yeah, but how long did Aule have to sleep on the couch?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . heh heh Before or after the dwarves chopped down trees?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . hope the couch was comfy.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It didnt sound like an unusual conversation for those two. It sounded like a description of how they usually got along
Dominique Darkwatch: . So maybe they were at odds quite often?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or partners in an arranged marriage....
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . You know even the elves didn't do arranged marriages.Like the elves, they have other interests in addition to each other
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . However, the elves were not patterned, in part on the Greek and Romans gods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And there are strong resemblances between the Valar and the Greek and Roman dieties.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . true. Some stories morethan others
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . relationships between dieties are totally different from those between members of other races
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . because?
Dominique Darkwatch: . I wonder if Aule was ever tempted to flirt with someone else
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not with Tolkien writing the story, I bet
Dominique Darkwatch: . haha...yes, quite right. Although letting him and Yavanna bicker just a bit is interesting
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . The Greek and Roman gods acted very human.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and not very virtuous
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . There were petty jealousies, squabbles, betrayals...oh, indeed.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . they were just bigger and stronger than humans
Dominique Darkwatch: . But I thought ainur were supposed to be more like angelic beings
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . How many of the Greater and lesser ainur had tempers? or were envious or quick to fight? I think we are sometimes to quick to slap a label on them.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And even angels fall.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . But we can at least some days think of the Ainur as expressions of Iluvatar's thought, which no one would think about Greek & Roman gods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . however...Athena?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what about Athena?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . She sprung out of her daddy's head
Dominique Darkwatch: . Like a thought?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So, in a way...she was a god's "brain child"
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and considering what a womanizer her daddy was, that is ... unusual for him
Dominique Darkwatch giggles
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Yes, very much, since she is the goddess of wisdom, and was as disspassionate as her brother Apollo was mercurial
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so what does that have to do with Yavanna & Aule?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about seeing the Valar in the context of greek and romans gods is when rpers try to play Valar as godlike.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, it is just that I find their relationship more human than I first thought when I read it long ago
Dominique Darkwatch nods: yes, especially these two
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, for roleplay there are problems with playing them godlike
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and more like the greek and roman dieties, which argues that perhaps they are more colored by individual thought and biases and free will than we often consider
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . The Ainur all seem to have personalities, at least , as much as the stories tell about them
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, their personalities is what drives their creativity
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and Illuvatar said "even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, . .. "AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . The Greek and Roman gods were well acquainted with the Fates and Destiny, and they knew that some things were preordained, but that seldom stopped them. Did Aule fall into this category, too?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not letting what was preordained stop him?
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. So...could it be argued, Fifi, that Aule's actions were in line with Illuvatar's will?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Would not this staement indicate the Ainur had will and thought of their own? and yes . . it could be argued so. imo
AelKennyr Rhiano nods thoughtfully
Dominique Darkwatch: . Hmm...maybe Iluvatar made an accomodation for Aule and his creations
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what was it Manwe was saying later, about he wasn't paying attention to everything in the Song?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes . . that is exactly what he did . . he said it is the the only time he will amend his work
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but also, later, when Iluvatar rewinds the tape, and lets Manwe listen again
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and manwe didn't 'hear' all the song even when he heard it the first time... yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Manwe notices all sorts of things that he didn't notice the first time. exactly
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . just as with ppl . . . upon re-reading/listening/watching new details are observed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . "Thus it seemed to Manwe that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that thought he had heard them he had not heeded before.""And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it...." I find that very telling
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And the implication that Iluvatar at least knew and approved of those details, although "knew and approved" isn't exactly the same as "planned"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . which indicates depth - just as the Professor's work is many layered, itself
Dominique Darkwatch: . Indeed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . the idea of being removed from the vision because you are now involved
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Maybe Aule forgot part of the Song?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Could Aule have not realized he was singing that part? Maybe the Ainur didn't realize the implications of everything they were singing?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Maybe he wasn't listening?? Maybe he was thinking his own thoughts and dreaming of his own desire for children
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think at first the Ainur didn't realize their Song was creating a world
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That was always my impression
Dominique Darkwatch nods and agrees
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . but Iluvator brought them together to sing the Great Song just for that purpose . . no they didn't know
Dominique Darkwatch: . Iluvatar did not reveal everything all at once
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so they wouldn't necessarily know how it was all going to turn out, or what it would look like
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Or over time, they became less "angelic" and ethereal?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . How is that related?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . as they moved deeper into a physical manifestation, yes, i believe so -- yay!! it's the ever-present off-topic!!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Fifi's favorite!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They probably did, but is it related to how much they understood the Song? Is there some connection I am missing?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I doubt it, Lihan
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . (Shawn will notice our vast inability to stick to the topic -- any topic)
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . (what was our topic?) hahahahaha kidding
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Dragons who eat swans, of course
Dominique Darkwatch: . We had a topic?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . but . . it does all eventually come back to my favorite topic . . the Ainur
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I notice the dwarves have hardly gotten any mention tonight
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . oh - those guys
Dominique Darkwatch: . The poor little things
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . dirty little hair balls
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . They were forced to stay asleep so I guess that part of the song was planned?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I guess we did snark a bit about there being seven of them
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . the 7 dwarf fathers . . . . hahaha
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya them
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . (hi, ho, hi ho...it's off to sleep we go)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Iluvatar did insist that the Firstborn -- the elves -- had to come first. No cutting in line
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . At thispoint - the dwarves are not really in play
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . No, they are alseep
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . As I understand it the ents awoke before dwarves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Did they?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm not positive
Dominique Darkwatch: . It makes sense to let the shepherds out before releasing the wolves
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Galadriel called Treebeard eldest
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought both the ents and the dwarves were waiting for the elves
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Elves came before dwarves
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The ents have not yet made a showing . . but their creation is explained . . . in this chapter. Are they not the Shepherds of the Trees?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . but dwarves were made first
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . You say "creation", but it also says "spirits will decend" to become the ents, which sounds a bit like Maiar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So ents are Maiar?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes . . nods . . point taken
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought that was unclear
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I didn't know ents were Maiar. It makes sense though
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . But we know ents reproduce: entwives, and entlings.And ents can be killed
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . the spirit takes on the appropriate form, in this case more plant
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, I was under the impresion they were meant to be Yavanna's counter to the dwarves
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Maiar can be killed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared" That part sounds very Maia
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Although in general the ents don't sound very Maia-like, not the ones we meet
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Perhaps they become more "earthbound", and therefore less spirit? or spiritual. Or the vision is remote to them, too, now?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Or the only ents we meet are children of the originals?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Not less spirit - spirit in a more earthbound form
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I'll go with that :)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . :)
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So if Aule had not made the 7 dwarf fathers, maybe the ents would not have appeared?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Some of the places Treebeard mentions are from the First Age. I think you are right, Shawn
Dominique Darkwatch: . yes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . maybe so, Shawn . . . .. they came from need . .not original song
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . and Yavanna pleads to have the ents guard the olvar. So that is a major difference in Aule and Yavanna's thoughts. Aule creates, yavanna asks
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And, what about some dwarf mothers? There is a serious oversight there
{Lihan crashes and relogs.}
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I was commenting on the individualistic behaviour of the Valar
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . since each has their own area . .one wouldn't expect them to be carbons off each other
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They certainly aren't
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . And not like a busby berkeley musical either. But the whole of them - together - - that creates another 'whole'. Also - remembering that the only view of the Ainur, is once again, the elven view
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So the Ainur should be considered a collective entitity?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Perhaps, each one fills a niche
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . As the whole is greater than the sum of the parts . . just as Arda is made up of many parts and together makes a whole world
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Cells of the body . .each has it's own area and each togetherwork to make a whole. So not a collective and yet a collective ^^ Each of Donald's feathers is separtae and special on its own . .and together they make a lovely gown. In that sense
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think also, the longer they were a part of this material world, they grew to evolve and grow more individualistic.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . And became more bonded with the denser form
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . having had the chance to have some experiences
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Form has it's own limitations
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . "spiritual beings having mortal experiences"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . bingo Just like RL
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . A professor of mine once said that the Greek and Roman gods were more of a comment on the human condition than humans themselves in those mythologies
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We noticed in a previous week how the Ainur started out with no practical experience at all
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . For the Greek and Roman gods, yes But then Tolkien wasn't always exactly copying his models. Sometimes he was trying to do something new, with older themes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . All they know are the Divine Realm . . music and their own thought and Illuvatar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . True But perhaps Professor Tolkien was using them to remind us of the converse: that humans say something about the divine condition
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think with Aule, Tolkien must have been working with the "subcreator" story, and trying to make it come out different
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . 'man created in God's image'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . You are familiar with gnostic stories about the creation of humans?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The higher can see the lower . . the lower can only see/sense/or perceive one level or so above their own consciousness
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Humans were created by a somewhat inept spirit-being, who was seriously exceeding his authority in doing that. So, basically, human existance is all a big mistake.Certainly the physical world is a mistake. And the male-female thing is a mistake
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . huh?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the gnostic versions of the creation of humans
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The world of duality is a mistake?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . at least SOME of the gnostic versions
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . *am a gnostc, personally . . am not familiar with that premise
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ah Well, some versions tell the story that way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Before we get too much futher off track...topic for next week?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, next week
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Continue with this topic?Go with another?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We hardly got to the dwarves at all
Dominique Darkwatch: . Dwarves and ents?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We could talk about Aule and the 7 dwarfs
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Dwarves were asleep lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And when DO the dwarf mothers show up?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yeah. And how do we recognize the dwarf mothers anyway
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That was apparently on the list of things Iluvatar wasn't planning on fixing
{Fifi crashes and relogs}
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yeah, big oversight on Aule's part
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, if he had asked Yavanna, she would have explained how that part works
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . LOL
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maybe Aule really didn't know
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ouch
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Why would he have known? No elves around yet
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . It wasn't his department
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He doesn't pay attention to the animals
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . well, there is Yavanna. I mean...blushes...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, but does Aule realize that also is important to reproduction?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Do Valar have sex? AelKennyr Rhiano blushes
Dominique Darkwatch: . Does Aule even care?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Fifi, we were just discussing, did Aule even KNOW that females were important to the plot? That he should have made some female dwarves?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . good question
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that could be another topic "Sex and the Single Ainu"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . hmm
Dominique Darkwatch: . Might explain the tension between he and Yavanna
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Once, long ago, Rajani wrote up something explaining why Valar could have... well, it will take some searching. We can put that on the list for the dwarves -- should Aule have created some females? And why did he forget?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ok
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . good topic
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . because the Ainur were less accustomed to thinking in terms of gender?
Dominique Darkwatch smiles: yes
Shawn Daysleeper agrees
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . nice of you to join us Shawn
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes indeed
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Thank you :)
