Tolkien Discussion Group
April 21, 2010
Topic: Ainur Action, Interference and Free Will
Present:
Fifi Wickentower
InyaRay Oktomica
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Dominique Darkwatch
Ossy Portocarrero
Summary:
Do the Ainur "interfere" in events in Middle Earth?
How often have the Ainur acted at all?
- bringing the elves to the Undying Lands
- warning the Noldor about leaving
- the Ainur army that helped destroy Morgoth's fortess of Angband
- sinking Númenor
- sending the Five Wizards to Middle Earth
If Ainur act, does that interfere with the Children's free will? Considering the actual effects of the Valar's few actions, the Children exercised their free will anyway.
Do Ainur have free will? or are they projections of parts of Ilúvatar's thoughts?- At the beginning, each Ainu made a personal contribution to the Song.
- As far as we know, the decision to bring the elves to Aman was made by the Valar, without any direct suggestion from Ilúvatar.
- Ilúvatar seems to delegate a lot, and to let others' decisions run their course. This fits with Tolkien's Christian attitudes.
- Melkor's disobedience seems to be clear evidence of free will. But what if Ilúvatar wanted a universe of light and dark, good and evil, to give the Children opportunity to exercise their decision-making powers.
To the extent that Ainur are simply obeying Ilúvatar's will, then the question becomes, "Does Ilúvatar interfere?".
Why did Melkor get in trouble for exercising free will? It wasn't his "free will" that was the problem, it was his pride and power-hunger, insisting on having everything his own way.
Will Melkor ever escape from his banishment? Probably.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . hi, Fifi. Are you chewing on a book?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Word termite that's me. Hungry for knowledge hehe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . We managed to get to this week without a topic. Anyone have a favorite question to discuss?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I love the story of the music.. but not sure about discussion of it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . How much do the Ainur know about future-history?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I thought they were spared final knowledge..
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . It does seem like things get pretty vague once the Children show up
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I was told that only Mandos and Manwe knew the fate of men
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Isn't that because they are they ones telling te tale?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . You said "spared"? Would it be a bad thing?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . It seems so. That they took less part in things.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I can see using the word "spared". They might have interefered more with elves and men if they saw more of the future events
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . ahem . . interfered?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . would they?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . What did finally become of them? it seems they became less
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Move from being advisors to actively participating
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I think just less involved once the novlty ofthe Children wore off
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That could be
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . as the world became enser ven the origial children removed themseves. ok - chat lag on top of everything else
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . How many times DID they interfere at all? Feanor and the Silmarils. Morgoth.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . never did interfere
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . wait
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . oh well - details lol
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Didn't they? What about Gandalf?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Right, and sending the five wizards. And a few messages, mostly by Ulmo
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Was thier counsel not wanted? and yet now we have elves demanding that the Ainur participate . . interfere
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, how many times do we hear of anyone asking the Ainur for advice?
AelKennyr Rhiano raises his hand
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Did you need permission?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I meant I asked the Ainur for advice
InyaRay Oktomica smiles
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . um, ok, that's once ...
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Well .. i think it is interference, even if protection to lead the elves to a land
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . oh, right (duh!) bringing the elves to Aman in the first place! Maybe that is why Tolkien didn't write much about the Ainur? The stories are about the elves, and the humans, making their own decisions (for better or worse)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . if you are assuming that there is a Christian subtext to Tolkien's work , then wouldn't this be analogous to how the angels tried to decide how to interact with mankind?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . um, did angels?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . babylon was some interaction :)
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Many times. Jacob wrestling with an angel
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Babylon?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Well angels interacting with humans
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Mandos pronounced judgement.. that was some interaction, though a bit indrect .
{Dominique arrives. Greetings all around.}
Dominique Darkwatch: . They really didn't seem to interact very much
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . we thought of a few examples, not a lot of examples
Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, if they were sufficiently provoked
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think, when you really look, they do interefere at times...if it served the will of Illuvatar or they felt compelled in some way or were asked
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Do we know any more about "the will of Iluvatar", besides how the story turned out?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . interfere - to try to run the affairs of others; also means to collide or be in opposition
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Of course do we know how much fee will did the ainur have?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I for one prefer not to interfere
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I always thought the Ainur had free will
Dominique Darkwatch: . I would hardly call anything they did "meddling" as such
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . although - interefere is appropo regarding the dark one and his original refusal to sing the song
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do angels have free will?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . They are so close to Illuvitar..
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . eh, I've heard conflicting reports about angels. Not that I actually know any angels
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I do ")
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Maybe because of that close relationship, they do not need free will
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . To be the thought of another
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . That was a gift/curse for hmanknd
AelKennyr Rhiano nods at Inya's words
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Yet the thoughts did evolve. As was said.. each sang at first their own song I believe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Wouldnt that just push the question to "does Iluvatar interfere?"
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Mandos pronounced his judgement
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . on the Noldor,you mean?
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and that was basically "if you do this, this will happen"
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . It was my undersatnding that Illuvitar decided and Mandos only pronounced it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes ...
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yet Orome found th elves on his own and led them to safety, on his own, it seems
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Didn't he ask the rest of the Valar, before bringing them back?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Did he?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I thought that was a group decision, even though Orome did the leading
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . he told them of it.. but it was not a decision of Illuvitar, overtly. They all wanted to do it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . but , like you said, there is no evidence Iluvatar was pushing for that solution
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Nor evidence he was not. : We are left to guess
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Iluvatar delegates a lot
Dominique Darkwatch: . Iluvatar seems to sometimes let things fall where they may
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that's ... um ... why the universe is run the way it is
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and the way Christians perceive God to operate
Dominique Darkwatch: . He seemed to allow Melkor's mischief to run free for a long time, as did the Valar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . so if there are Christian overtones, this would make sense.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . non intererence as interference. Knowing the course and allowing
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . One could ask if Melkor really did break from Illuvatar or did he serve Illuvatar's will by rebelling as he did.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes!
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . so strong he was..
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Philosophers have been gnawing on that one for thousands of years
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . *chews a little more
Dominique Darkwatch: . Melkor proves the point of free will
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Does he?
Dominique Darkwatch: . He was discordant and Iluvatar allowed his song to be incorporated into the rest of creation
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Perhaps his discordance was part of the plan.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Like black threads in a tapestry? adding contrast
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . how can morals have free will, if they never have the need to exercise it? Melkor provided the opportunity for that free will to be exercised.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . a world of duality will have choices, as many choices as there beings
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, but, without Melkor
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes :)
Dominique Darkwatch: . And Melkor exercised his own to the detriment of the elves, whom he hated
{Ossy arrives. Greetings all around.}
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . ok so,... Melkor.. valar.. something?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Do Ainur have free will? do Ainur "interfere" with humans and elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . What do you think, Ossy?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Yes and no. Well... Ossy Portocarrero rubs chin. Ok, lets consider the creation of the world...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . or are Ainur just projections of the thought of Iluvatar?
Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, Melkor certainly was interfering, meddling and all up in it
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . all that singing they were doing... that was all 'their own doing'. But when he started causing a ruckus Illuvatar told him Quiet down *bitch slap*... everything you do is only a reflection of me... and since it all comes from me, I can do it better and you will only ever imitate you will never create. And they ARE reflections of small parts of Illuvatar... He said as much, directly. Even Melkor being bad... was in a way Illuvatar's Idea.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . but isn't everything a reflection? all of creation?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . in a sense, but he gave his children, elves and men.. free will. Tolkien says so in the book. And Humans have free will more so than any other race
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . more so than elves?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . yus because their lives are shorter their decisions tend to matter more in the long run (for them). But Valar, while they do do what they want, in so far as they are on EA and what not...they're all just doing Illuvatar's work no?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . is that actually more free will? or just more affected by it?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . :D I'm just talking!
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yet they chose to come
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . those are good points.
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . They did :) Ea and the humans and the elves are awesome. The valar wanted to come ^^
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I suggested that Melkor, too, was serving the will of Illuvatar
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . I agree. Without badness... there is nothing to compare good against, and therefore no good
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . so even the rebel...how much free will did he have?
Dominique Darkwatch: . So destroying the two trees was Iluvatar's will?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Without strife, how can we rise up to meet it and overcome it? and without destruction, how can we ever rebuild and improve
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and Melkor ended up locked in an extra-dimensional prison by Iluvatar's power, which doesn't sound like he was serving Iluvatar's will
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . maye he was
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . If the two trees were not destroyed, how would history have been different.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Sounds like even Iluvatar agreed he was out of control
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Maybe Illuvatar needed to give his main baddie a rest, to give everyone else a chance to re-build etc. And to let Melkor's LT's get a chance to wreak some havoc
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Perhaps, he served Illuvatar's will by rebelling, but he had free will in how he rebelled, and what he did when he rebelled.
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . You know... if Illuvatar is like the Christian God I think he is. He knows whats going to happen, anyway. All the way until the last day. Does his pre-sentience make our free will invalid?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . No more than knowing after the fact does
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Humans and elves did not know Illuvatar before they were created... or before they were on Ea. The Valar did. And they came in his name to fix up the land for his children... they are like... Ea's Cops and Construction workers and stuff.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . ahem . . the Builders of Arda?? hehe
Dominique Darkwatch: . If you think of Iluvatar as a creator, like an author or artist or poet... Sometimes the creations sort of write or draw themselves in a way
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . and why free will ?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . After the passage of time, though, would not the Valar become more "earthbound"? More involved and concerned with Ea?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . They were always involved and concerned
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . If they stay too long in any one form
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . They made it with their voices and their hands...Its their baby. But because they are reflections of Illuvatar they don't necessarily interfere unless there is no other way.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . And the longer you are involved with "baby", the more attached? But once they interfere, we never know if there was another way.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and who makes the judgement of what is interference?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . If the Valar interfere... it kinda messes up the whole... free will thing. Its like over protective parents... They gotta let the kids out of the nest ya know?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . We had a handful of cases where they were involved
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Does it mess up the free will, though?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I don't see how
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . If the valar with their powers step in and do something, it doesn't allow the people they interrupted from coming to their own ends and conclusions
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Gandalf, I think, was the most meddlesome.
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . yes he was :P
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and still the fellowship could have chosen other than he wanted
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . If an angel comes to you does that mean you lose your free will?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Angels don't often interfere, not in the same way Valar have in the books
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . bringing the elves to Aman ...and not all of the decided to come. Warning the Noldor... and most of them left anyway
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . nods
Dominique Darkwatch: . When the Numenorians resisted the ban to sail west they along with Iluvatar did swing into action
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, and that was a defensive action ... Marching an Ainur army to Morgoth's castle
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do we know for certain that Melkor will never be freed?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Im sure he will get out sooner or later
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . He did serve his purpose. There is a fundamental choice all mortal sentinent beings make now.
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I find a conflict.. in Illuvitar considering Melkor arrogant for expressing his own will, but the humans and elves have it
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That is a great question, Inya.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . It was a power trip with him tho
Dominique Darkwatch: . It was not Melkor's free will that got him in trouble... It was his pride
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . he wanted to create of his own, and mix things his own way.. as do I :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . (I found the passage about what happened to Melkor)
"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Doors of Night,: beyond the walls of the world, into the Timeless Void, and a guard is set forever on those walls"
They wouldn't have set a guard, unless there was a danger of him escaping
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . The timeless creates the timed.. the void the substance .. eep
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and forever is a long time
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . yes but well, elves and valar live forever :D sort of...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, it seems theoretically possible for Melkor to escape
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . If there is a way he can get out, it can happen, You never know :)
InyaRay Oktomica peeps out ..
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Yes, and nothing keeps him from manipulating others.
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . indeed
InyaRay Oktomica might hear a whisper coming from .... there
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Cue the spooky music
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I mean, is his essence locked away, such that his energy cannot still influence those of weak wills
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . lol
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . And so the dance of light and dark, good and bad, tall and short continues
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It must
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . The passage continued, saying that the lies he had planted will continue to bear fruit
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Because that what this world is
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nod nod
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and the only salvation is ppl like the cleric *nods to Dominique* re-introducing Illuvatar to the ppl
Dominique Darkwatch smiles and blushes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Balancing the heaviness of the darkness, for without the light there is no other outcome
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . You need night to recognize day, sorrow to understand joy
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . heh I said all that :P
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . The Vanyar are pretty boring
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Are they, Lihan? They're all kinda one sided but... I don't think they're that boring
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . boring compared to what?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . In the fourth age it is those like Dom that will perhaps be able to remind ppl to seek for more
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . So sad .. to be that one who must provide the darkness
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . I danno Inya. Melkor was REALLY into his darkness :D
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . true :)
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . You have to be able to step back a LONG ways to see it as "sad"
InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I do though, if he knows
Ossy Portocarrero whispers: thats a lot of stepping back Lihan xD
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Well, as I think most Valar would feel as Inya does.
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Mmm most of them felt scared about Melkor, not sad...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Because he is removed from Illuvatar in a way they are not, at least not in the first and second age. Well it had to be frightening at first to conceive an ainu NOT obeying Illuvatar.
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Hmm Illuvatar is everywhere :D He's right next to Melkor as he does all he does...
Dominique Darkwatch: . He distanced himself by seeking the darkest places
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and Melkor is nowhere
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Illuvatar is Spirit, Quintessence
Ossy Portocarrero rubs his chin "... maybe I just see it differently"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, but remember the Valar do not know all of the song
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . in a sense
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think I see your view point. And it is very intriguing.
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Even the most cruel vicious murderer has Illuvatar beside him over his shoulder.... Can the same not be said about Melkor?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do you think that over time, the Ainur may become less etheral and more bound in earthly matters? So their scope becomes limited over time?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . I was told once that they had limited power. They more they get involved the less power they have, I'd imagine.. but they'd still be Valar...
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . If we assume Tom Bombadil was Ainu, then we have an example
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . My understanding was that if they stayed too long in an Ardan form . . .eventually it would crytallize and they would be unable to change back
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . ok, but most of them aren't Ardan most of the time. Gandalf had a long ride around... but most of them didn't as far as I understood
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes, and the form was really only necessary if there was interaction with the Children. That is a form that didn't freak ppl out
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Yep
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and not always necessary then. Well, there are two kinds of forms ... a visible shape, and a real, functional physical body
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . only two?
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . so you could see em and not touch em
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . two categories of forms?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes? and then perhaps their true form? not necessarily visible
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that would be a spirit?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . at least to the more mortal eyes, umhmm
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, I wasn't counting that as a "form"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . ok, *quibblers R us, lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Probably a lot of ainur who don't interact with the Children never bother with visible forms at all
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . no doubt
Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . sorry to split, I have work early and my bed is calling my name in a really haunting Melkor-like way :D So Im gonna go before it does something creepy.
{Farewells}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Well, if you ever talk Nienna into a real physical body, she is going to be a complete klutz, because she has hardly ever done that before. Not something you need for talking to dead spirits.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . hahahaha I got stuck behind a chair, you'll recall
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and how many people can get their illusion-body stuck?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Maybe this is a good stopping point?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . maybe
Dominique Darkwatch: . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . What will we talk about next week? phyiscal manifestations of the Valar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . We haven't done a Silmarillion chapter in a while
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . we did really well for not having a topic ^^
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . we did great!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . The next chapter, if we are going in order, would be Aule and Yavanna and the dwarves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That works for me?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . 0kay
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Want to do that next week?
Dominique Darkwatch: . okay
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . sure
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . sure
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . This was a great discussion tonight
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . especially for having no topic :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Maybe we should have a open topic disucssion now and again.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Then we can't be accused of going off topic
