Celeborn & Galadriel, part 2

Tolkien Discussion Group August 25, 2010 Topic: Celeborn and Galadriel, continued Present: Rosie Gray Shawn Daysleeper Lihan Taifun AelKennyr Rhiano Summary: It is probably significant that Galadriel gave Gimli three of her hairs, when she had refused to give Fëanor a hair. If Galadriel had asked you what gift you wanted, what would you have asked for? Tolkien apparently introduced Galadriel in Lord of the Rings, and then had to incorporate her into his previous backstory of the universe. Galadriel's personality is more filled-out, as Tolkien characters go. Does Galadriel's connection to water (her mirror) come from her Teleri grandmother? We discuss our experiences of reading Tolkien for the first time. We liked the way Cate Blanchet played Galadriel. We disagree about whether her Galadriel was "creepy." Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, did anyone find anything new about Galadriel this week? Did you get my notecard of excerpts? pretty long reading, and mostly demonstrates that the story is very confused, very contradictory Shawn Daysleeper: . it is interesting that she refused to give Feanor any of her hair, but she gave Gimli some hairs Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, that makes the gift to Gimli very impressive, or very moving Shawn Daysleeper: . it's like she mellows down thru the ages or something Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or she likes the dwarf better than she liked her cousin Shawn Daysleeper: . ya I think that is one of the most moving moments in the LOTR Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and passed over so quickly, easy to miss Shawn Daysleeper: . yes It's amazing how many contradictions there are Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he must have been trying out different versions of the story, and either never decided which he liked, or never wrote down which was the final version. But it certainly makes a very confusing set of notes he left. Glad I'm not Christopher Tolkien, trying to clean out his desk. Awww, no, I'd love to have that job ... Shawn Daysleeper nods. I think it would be fun Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . no matter how confusing Shawn Daysleeper: . well, he published it all Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . he published some of it. Maybe with all the later books it comes to most of JRRT's notes. I don't have any of "History of Middle Earth", but that runs volumes and volumes of old notes Shawn Daysleeper: . me either, but I have seen them in the library. They are collections of notes. There's 12 volumes I believe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . wow Sounds about right, though. I've seen them, or some of them, a few years ago Shawn Daysleeper: . so I think he wanted to publish it, in case he interpreted them wrong, the notes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . besides that us geeks would buy anything :) Shawn Daysleeper laughs. I have 3 editions of the LOTR and 2 of the silmarillion. I'm a geek Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . three different editions? Shawn Daysleeper: . ya Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . how are they differnt? Shawn Daysleeper: . one from the '80's I believe, in a boxed set. one with the movie covers, and the 40th anniversary 1 volume book Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . same text? Shawn Daysleeper: . it's all LOTR Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I've heard the newer editions have some corrections Shawn Daysleeper: . oh really? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not sure exactly what Shawn Daysleeper: . there is a new preface in the 40th anniversary single volume. Oops this is the 50th anniversary, sorry Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . 50th anniversary, wow Shawn Daysleeper: . ya There is a notes section Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I wore out 1 1/2 sets of LotR. For years I only owned Two Towers. That would have been a 1970's paperback Shawn Daysleeper: . the notes section details how Tolkein wanted to publish LOTR as a single volume when he first wrote it Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Oh yes, I had heard that. But the publisher didn't think anyone would buy a volume that big. The story does make more sense as one complete story. Shawn Daysleeper: . ok, that is labeled "note on the text". Ok, then there is a section labeled "notes on the 50th anniversary edition". They mention changes in grammar and punctuation. And was written in 2004 {People finish arriving. Greetings.} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, Galadriel and Celeborn. We have decided the story is contradictory. We were just getting back to topic Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . just looking back on what you were talking about Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . assuming anyone has anything to say on topic. Shawn had mentioned Galadriel refusing to give Feanor a hair, but did for Gimli Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . what was the hair for, to Gimli? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . she had given everyone else in the Company a gift, and she asked Gimli what he would want. "What gift would a dwarf ask of the elves?" Rosie Gray nods AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but why a hair? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . what would he do with it? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that's exactly what she asked! Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe Shawn Daysleeper: . he wanted to keep the hair as a memory of her words, at their first meeting Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . where she was so kind and welcoming Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it's rather an odd keepsake, hmmm, but of course the Victorians did that a lot, didn't they Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . what would you ask for? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hmmm I don't know Shawn Daysleeper: . I have no idea Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . neither do I AelKennyr Rhiano: . . among natives peoples around the world Fingernails and hair hold great power. Joseph Campbell himself commented on this emphasis on the power in clippings and hair Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . elves really value hair Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . would be very odd to ask for some nail clippings. Rosie Gray laughs Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . nail clippings just doesn't sound right Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I guess a plait of hair is very sentimental. oh is that right Ael? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . is that because it is a part of the person that comes off easily? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it can stay looking just as it did when it was cut too Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, true Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so you could take it out, and it still has the texture, and colour AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . but it seems like a gift to a lover, or between parent and child, very intimate AelKennyr Rhiano: . . among indigenous peoples it was not uncommon for people of status to bury their clippings and cut hair, if they allowed their hair to be cut, to prevent someone using them to have control over the person. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or burn it maybe? I have that imagine in my mind from somewhere Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . like a voodoo thing AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, that was also done. well, for voodoo, remember, that is a religion, so there is a bit more going on Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes I am aware of that Ael Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . this month's National Geographic it mentions King Tut was buried with a lock of his grandmother's hair Shawn Daysleeper: . because it came from the body Rosie Gray nods AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod no nod yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . so, a gift like this to a dwarf, was showing great familiarity Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, quite an honor for Gimli Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and a bit of a slap down to Feanor Shawn Daysleeper: . ya she gives hair to Gimli but not to Feanor, yes Rosie Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . she didn't get to slap down Feanor nearly as much as she would have liked, I think Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so in some versions of the story she was inspired by Feanor's big speech, and in some versions she wasn't even home when he gave it AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . makes it hard to decide on her reaction then Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . either way, she was eager to go to Middle Earth and build herself a kingdom. queendom? AelKennyr Rhiano nods, thoughtfully Shawn Daysleeper: . that does seem to hold true through all the notes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . otherwise it is hard to explain why someone who obviously reveres Elbereth so much would have decided to leave, not to mention refusing to go back, later. The impression I got from Unfinished Tales was that Professor Tolkien introduced her in Lord of the Rings, and then had to figure out how to fit her into the previous history of Middle Earth Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . that would make sense Shawn Daysleeper: . makes sense considering how pieced her background is Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . she's very magical, for an elf AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I noted that, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I am not sure he knew what to do with her. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Noldor -- "High Elven", but not the typical Noldor personality Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . with her magic basic of water and all AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that was her Teleri roots nod nod nod Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes that makes sense, the Teleri connection Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, can all Teleri do that with a bowl of water? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . saves on phone bills AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Shawn Daysleeper: . we could try it out Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well I was just thinking of it as a mystical connection to water AelKennyr Rhiano: . . TT&T: Teleri Telephone & Telegraph Shawn Daysleeper laughs AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or is the last....telepathy? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . lol! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . prototype for the palantiri? Shawn Daysleeper: . provincewide coverage? nationwide? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Teleri Telphone & Telepathy? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol, yes We have the 4th Age network instead of 3G coverage lol Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, with all the apps Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . apps for a bowl of water, uh huh Shawn Daysleeper: . need a swanship, there is an app for that Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡ AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well, instead of "Bing" we have "Splash" Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . brings a new meaning to "Splash screen" AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . seems to me that Galadriel was quite fleshed out, as far as Tolkien goes. He didn't really go in for a lot of character development AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think among the female characters, that is certainly true. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . some of his Silmarillion characters seem well developed Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . you think so? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . comparatively Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well, comparatively, maybe. To me they are epic tales Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not like some authors, for sure Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and the characters are not much more than sketched, until you get to Bilbo and Frodo Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I agree Galadriel is one of the more developed characters Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . come to think of it, I think he must have had a great fondness for hobbits Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . hobbits are the heroes of the story Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes the heroes, but also you get more of a feel for their personalities, I think Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, you do Shawn Daysleeper agrees Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and Sam with his rope from Galadriel! (see, almost back to topic) Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ha right! Shawn Daysleeper: . didn't he get a box of dirt also? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true. The rope might have been more "supplies" that were restocked in Lorien, but Sam was very fond of that rope Shawn Daysleeper: . the box of dirt helped him with replanting the shire it seems AelKennyr Rhiano: . . the Silmarillion was a different type story, thought, from the Hobbit and LOTR Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . do you want to elaborate on that thought Ael? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ok The Hobbit was more of an adventure story... Compare, if you will bear with me, "The Adventures of Robin Hood," starring Errol Flynn, as opposed to Laurence Oliver's "MacBeth".Robin Hood is high adventure, some comedy, and in the end good prevails with only a moderate amount of difficulty. That is very much like the Hobbit. AelKennyr Rhiano: . . For example, can you imagine the scene where the dwarves visit Bilbo and they make a disaster of his kitchen...can you imagine that scene... in the Silmarillion? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . noooo Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehehe nooo! Shawn Daysleeper: . yes I understand there is a difference, but I like how you are explaining it :) Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't think there are any humorous scenes in Silmarillion Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it is a very stern and somewhat sedate accounting Shawn Daysleeper: . it's actually kinda depressing in places Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . but of course, The Hobbit was written for children AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It is almost as heavy as Wagner's opera. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes that's true! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It is more like "The Iliad " or the Aenaid". I think I spelled those right....scratches head Shawn Daysleeper: . I remember reading those AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The characters are archetypes more often than not. They are vehicles for this sweepng saga. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and The Lord of the Rings is almost in between those other two AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . no wonder that the Tolkien writings have been studied so much AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It is an elven "Gone with the Wind". The Characters, except for a chosen few, are very much "stock" characters. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . nearly all are Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well they certainly inspired a lot of other literature, and roleplay Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I think we were at "stock characters", or "archetypes", if you prefer AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There are several archetypes in Tolkien's work Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . to be honest, if I hadn't read Tolkien years ago, I probably wouldn't have much interest in it today. It's completely unlike what I choose to read now Shawn Daysleeper: . interesting thought Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . however, it did make a huge impression on me, when I did read it :P AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Really? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . mmhmmm AelKennyr Rhiano: . . interesting Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . do all of you read fantasy now? Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, when I can AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I have always have eccletic reading tastes, but yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes Rosie Gray nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . do you know what impressed you, in those days? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well just the shear adventure of it, and the magic. I remember very clearly the thrill of fear from the black horsemen Shawn Daysleeper nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh yes Shawn Daysleeper: . yes I remember first reading about the black riders, and not sleeping that night Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yeah AelKennyr Rhiano: . . hahahaha Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . well they were developed very well as evil Shawn Daysleeper looks embarassed Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I put the book down at the chasm of Moria, and didn't pick it up for another 2 years, it was so scary Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes that was a frightening scene! I couldn't put it down though. Unlike, I have to say, The Silmarillion AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I would sneak a flashlight to bed and read it under the covers after everyone went to bed Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh I did that too Ael Shawn Daysleeper: . lol, ya me too Ael AelKennyr Rhiano: . . :) Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . and I would read by the light of the crack in the door to the hallway, which I'm sure is how I ruined my eyes! Shawn Daysleeper: . I opened my shades and used the streetlight at night AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and then I had to go to the bathroom one night after reading one of the scary parts, and as I was tiptoeing down the dark hallway, a cat in heat screamed outside...and I screamed myself...so busted. Shawn Daysleeper: . lol that's awesome Ael Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . awh Ael! hehehe Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hahah, well that is a lesson to parents Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . parents? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . yes, to let your kids read whenever they want to, even if they are supposed to be going to sleep Shawn Daysleeper: . my parents didn't like my reading of the LOTR AelKennyr Rhiano: . . why, Shawn? Shawn Daysleeper: . they thought it was bad or evil, like witchcraft Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh really Shawn Daysleeper: . I have no idea where they got that from Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . bet they don't approve of Harry Potter, either, then Shawn Daysleeper: . but now they have seen all the films. ya they didn't like it when I was reading it years ago, but now they approve Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I think you are old enough now that they would find it hard to disapprove! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We have some here who are like that about fantasy in general Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . just think that fantasy is evil? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, because it involves fantasical creatures...not God's creation Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes the religious right Shawn Daysleeper: . ya they are rather conservative Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that's a very strict viewpoint Shawn Daysleeper: . yup, one reason why we don't see eye to eye on most things Shawn Daysleeper: . anyways, back to topic [2010/08/25 20:34] Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . ㋡: well I have to admit I'm pretty sketchy on the details, as it's been rather a long time since I've read LOTR Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . all the way back to the topic of Galadriel? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yep Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . Galadriel with her golden hair Shawn Daysleeper: . well, we got onto the topic of parents not letting their kids read LOTR Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I think Cate Blanchet did an amazing job of playing her, in the movie Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, she was wonderful Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Yes, she did Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I liked the way she made Galadriel a little creepy AelKennyr Rhiano: . . She captured her spirit, I thought. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . dangerous Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . did you think she was creepy? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I thought she was ethereal Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ethereal AND creepy AelKennyr Rhiano: . . when she turned down the ring...that part was creepy Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . I don't recall that. Why was it creepy? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . when she was talking telepathically to Frodo, that was creepy, too Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . huh, you know I never saw it that way Shawn Daysleeper: . when she was perceiving herself with the ring, she was creepy AelKennyr Rhiano: . . because you realized just exactly what sort of power she was turning down Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the part where she is imagining what she could do with it? Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, wearing the armour and hair flying everywhere. That scene? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hmmm I am just watching that scene. I still don't see it as creepy Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so it affects different people differently Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . magical,: yes I guess. Then she seems kind of mournful Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that makes sense Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3D2FhdLvAYw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3D2FhdLvAYw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . that's rather nice about Galadriel and Celeborn Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . which part is it? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it's not from the movie Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . it's a slideshow someone made to a music bed, but using the movie images Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . awww Shawn Daysleeper: . ya this is nice AelKennyr Rhiano: . . :) Shawn Daysleeper: . thanks Rosie, that's great AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, thank you Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh welcome! but there are so many of them! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What is our topic for next week? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . last week we were talking about Mandos AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oooh Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Halls of the Dead AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Nuuuuuuu I won't go! hahahah Shawn Daysleeper laughs. And you didn't! go AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . hehe Well sounds like a rousing topic! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I may not be caught up on the old discussions, but I am ahead on Mandos.{passes out notecards about Mandos.} Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . excellent! Shawn Daysleeper: . this is awesome, thank you AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the index is so helpful Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . oh yes, well sounds good to me! Shawn Daysleeper: . Mandos next week? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Mandos! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Mandos

Celeborn & Galadriel, part 1

Tolkien Discussion Group

August 18, 2010

 Topic:Celeborn & Galadriel

Present:

AelKennyr Rhiano

Shawn Daysleeper

Rosie Gray

Dominique Darkwatch

Lihan Taifun

Summary:

Galadriel was grandaughter of King Finwë and King Olwë, and great-granddaughter of King Ingwë. She is one of many elves described as "the fairest".

Tolkien revised her history many times, and there is no consensus which of the stories he intended as the final, official version.

In one version, Celeborn is a grandson of King Olwë, presumably via the other mysterious children King Olwë sometimes has.

We discussed how the variations in versions of the story affect roleplaying the characters.

Although Professor Tolkien claims that the elves had a fairly gender-neutral society, he himself has trouble writing them that way. Notice that Galadriel's mother calls her "man-maiden" because she is smart and athletic.

---

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . no Lihan this evening?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . No, I think you are stuck with me

Shawn Daysleeper smiles

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well I think you will do very nicely

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I will try, but I'm no Lihan :) : for which I am sure Lihan is grateful :) lol

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . heheh

Dominique Darkwatch giggles

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . thank you for the excellent notecard. the coles notes of Celeborn & Galadriel. Rosie Gray grins

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, that was Lihan :)

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . ah!

Dominique Darkwatch: hehe...figures

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well it's very useful

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Tolkien referred to Galadriel as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle Earlth" and the "greatest of elven women."

She was a royal Elf of both the Noldor and the Teleri, being a grandchild of both King Finwë and King Olwë, and was also close kin of King Ingwë of the Vanyar through her grandmother Indis. Towards the end of her stay in Middle-earth she was co-ruler of Lothlórien along with her husband, Lord Celeborn, and was referred to variously as The Lady of Lórien, The Lady of the Galadhrim, Lady of Light or The Lady of the Wood. She had a daughter Celebrían.

Galadriel was the only daughter and youngest child of Finarfin, prince of the Noldor, and of Eärwen, daughter of Olwe.

Certainly she was often called the fairest of all the elves...gets it from her Teleri side of the family.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . seems to me there were a few "fairest of all the elves" in Tolkien. heheh

Dominique Darkwatch: hehe

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That does seem to be a common theme.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well I guess we know she was one of the top 10 anyway ㋡

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Galadriel was an eager participant and leader in the rebellion of the Noldor and their flight from Valinor: in fact the "only female to stand tall in those days". As a leader of the Exiles, she was forbidden by the Ban of the Valar to return to the Undying Lands. She was, however, completely separated from Fëanor and his kin, and did not participate in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë.

Dominique Darkwatch: Good for her

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Once in Beleriand, she lived mainly with one of her brothers, Finrod Felagund of Nargothrond, but spent much time at the court of Thingol and Melian in Menegroth.

What is noteworthy about Galadriel is that she was able to peer into the minds of others and judge them fairly.

So telepathy?

Shawn Daysleeper: . .  . could be

Dominique Darkwatch: The first elf to meet humans communicated thus...until he learned the language

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Is that right?

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . Celeborn did?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . with telepathy?

Dominique Darkwatch: Geh...Fingold, maybe? Yes...he encounters humans and could read the thoughts that they would reveal to him as of speech

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . is telepathy a skill she received when she started wearing the elven ring?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . looking...you got me on that

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . In the account in Silmarillion, it read to me like she always had it

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ok

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, no, I could be wrong

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm, I never did get a copy of the Unfinished Tales

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . is it in unfinished tales?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . In the Unfinished Tales, there are many accounts of Galadriel and Celeborn.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes I see that

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . One of these highlights a second version of how Galadriel came to Middle-earth. She lived with her mother's kindred in the Telerin port of Alqualondë and there met Teleporno, later known as Celeborn, who would become her husband and co-ruler. Celeborn, by this account, was Olwë's grandson. Galadriel and Celeborn sailed from the West and came to Beleriand separately from the two main hosts of the Noldor (one that Fëanor led in the ships of the Teleri, the other that crossed Helcaraxë). Galadriel was thus not directly involved in the revolt of the Noldorin princes in this version, and indeed fought against them at Alqualondë during the kinslaying; but she fell under the Ban of the Valar because she left the Undying Lands without permission. Once in Beleriand she and Celeborn were welcomed by Thingol and lived in Doriath. Once the Noldor arrived in Beleriand, Galadriel reestablished contact with her brothers. In this version of the story, she is offered a pardon by the Valar, but refused it out of pride and therefore remained under the Ban. In even later accounts from Unfinished Tales, written not long before Tolkien died, Galadriel was not even subject to the Ban, and remained in Middle-earth of her own volition.

In both versions Celeborn plays no important role in the Battles of Beleriand; he and Galadriel left Beleriand before the War of Wrath. They travelled first to Lindon, where they ruled over a group of Elves, probably as a fiefdom under Gil-galad. Later they moved eastward and established (or were welcomed into) the realm of Eregion or Hollin. At this time they made contact with a Nandorin settlement in the valley of the Anduin, which later became Lothlórien. At some point Celeborn and Galadriel left Eregion (where Celebrimbor either had been or now became the ruler) and settled in Lothlórien. According to some accounts, they became rulers of Lothlórien for a time during the Second Age; but in all accounts they returned to Lórien to take up its rule after Amroth was lost in the Third Age.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . ㋡ it's a bit convoluted

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes This is a good example of a writer revising his own literature's history.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . you know, I think this kind of thing is one reason that roleplaying these characters can mean really finessing their characters

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . WE can only guess which version he would have chosen as the "official" one.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . wasn't Unfinished Tales patched together by Christopher though?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes Which makes it unclear if Tolkien really meant for them to ever see light of day.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes exactly, so we should take those references perhaps with a grain of salt. However, when they don't conflict, it's nice to add some details

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think the greatest pitfall in rping literary characters is when you conceive of them as "canon"...because most rpers take that to mean the character and his/her actions are written in stone.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And Tolkien is a perfect example that good literature evolves and changes.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . hmmm well I think that's the case with Tolkien

Dominique Darkwatch: So it might be easier playing a character that has scant references ... more freedom to play

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I've always thought so, Dominque. What's the case with tolkien?

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . that Tolkien's characters seem to change and evolve

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh yes.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes I agree Dominique. On the other hand, having an existing character with a fairly well drawn timeline and characterstics does also provide a nice framework too. You can think of it that way

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always respected Ted's portrayal of Elwe, but I would have chosen Olwe, had I been given the choice. Because I could really claim ownership of the character.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . yes, well you did!

{Lihan finally suceeds in logging in. Greetings.}

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, I love how Olwe is roleplayed

Dominique Darkwatch smiles: "Olwe has a good player playing him"

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes and smiles

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But you know, I was always curious about the third brother, Elmo...why did he go to Sesame Street.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . it's a valid question!

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a great mystery

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, good question

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . perhaps he enjoyed the sing-alongs.Rosie Gray grins

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Oh, yes, we Teleri love music.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . well, I could tickle him that way

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . omg.....hahahah

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was not in the beginning...I had people constantly criticizing how I played him.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh really? I didn't know that

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I suppose there are always people who critisize

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . One person got in group chat one night and demand I "marry" and "procreate" or give up the role.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . oh my

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh I think I vaguely remember that. I think that person was just expressing their homophobia. if you will pardon my mentioning it

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that is quite all right.

Dominique Darkwatch: I could see where purists might really have strong opinions

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but...what is there to be pure about? when Tolkien himself changed and rewrote threads of the fabric of the story here and there.

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . It's 4th age, how can we be pure?

Dominique Darkwatch: I think there is a lot of people who think they know what the professor intended...when in fact he did revise it bebause he was not sure sometimes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I've had a few people whine because Nienna is brown

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . really?

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh really?

Dominique Darkwatch: pfft

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . well, lol, and that is probably one of the reasons that she is brown!

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not a lot, but it has been mentioned to me

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

{The conversation wanders off to looking at other Second Life groups doing Tolkien role play.}

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so are you all done with Galadriel and Celeborn?

Dominique Darkwatch: Well...does anyone play Gladriel?

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh someone did once

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . no, long long ago

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Not in the 4th Age. I think she would be a challenging character to play. Everyone has their preconceptions of her

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . especially in the First Age!

Dominique Darkwatch: Well, would Galadriel even be in middle earth in the 4th age?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . no, unless she came back for some reason

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I noticed that Tolkien really slipped on his gender-roles of elves, on Galadriel

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . how do you mean, Lihan?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . how so, Lihan?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . she's smart AND athletic, so her mom calls her "man-maiden"

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, that's right!

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, I saw that

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . as if a smart and athletic child just couldn't be female

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . indeed. Well Tolkien was an old-fashioned man

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . a product of his era

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He was. But he also wrote all those essays about what life was like among the elves, and the essays are nothing like what he actually wrote about them in the stories

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . which essays?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always am leery when people cite his essays

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Laws and Customs of the Eldar, for one

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . oh I haven't read any of those, didn't know he wrote them

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I've only read extracts. Sometimes I wonder whether he read them, after he wrote them, because a number of things don't fit with the way he wrote the elves in his stories

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that is a good question.

Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . . are they published in book form?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not that I know of, just always quoted by other people

Dominique Darkwatch: we've used the extracts here for things not covered in the major books...like when we talked about sex and marriage among elves

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I often hear purists quote them.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . if you wanted to really derail the topic ...

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It's not already?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I could mention that Celeborn's name in Quenya is spelled Teleporno, poor guy

{As predicted, this goes downhill fast.}

Celeborn & Galadriel - Reading Material

"There is no part of the history of Middle-Earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistancies 'embedded in the traditions'; or to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings."

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

Christopher Tolkien also makes clear that the versions of stories chosen for the Silmarillion were chosen primarily as the most fully written out, not necessarily because they were his father's final decision on a topic.

* What group of elves did Celeborn come from? Where did he and Galadriel meet?

* What was Galadriel's motive for leaving Aman? Would she have been allowed to return at the end of the First Age, if she had wished?

* Which side did she fight on, at the Kinslaying?

* Was Amroth their son, or a completely unrelated prince of the land that was later known as Lórien?

----------------------------------------------------

[At the time of Fëanor's oath]

"But Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will."

Silmarillion, "Of the Flight of the Noldor"

[Galadriel and Fingon led the group of Noldor who crossed the Helcaraxë ice.]

"After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set on her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."

 The Road Goes Ever On, quoted in Unfinished Tales

"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

"Her mother name was Nerwen ('man-maiden'), and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched. ... the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees ... had been snared in her tresses. Many thought that this saying first gave to Fëanor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor, were unfriends forever.

"She was proud, strong, and self-willed, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin, and ... she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverance for the Valar that she could not forget.

"So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, forever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile she would not relent. ... Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth."

 from an essay, later than 1968, quoted in Unfinished Tales

"A wholly different story ... of Galadriel's conduct at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor appears in a very late and partly illegible note: the last writing of my father's on the subject ..., set down in the last month of his life.

"... So far from joining in Fëanor's revolt she was in every way opposed to him. She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents. ... This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, know to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. Pondering what she might do Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë. There she met Celeborn, who is here again a Telerian prince, the grandson of Olwë of Alqualondë and thus her close kinsman. Together they planned to build a ship and sail in it to Middle-earth; and they were about to seek leave from the Valar for their venture when Melkor fled from Valmar and returning with Ungoliant destroyed the light of the Trees. In Fëanor's revolt that followed ... Galadriel had no part: indeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them. Galadriel, despairing now of Valinor and horrified by the violence and cruelty of Fëanor, set sail into the darkness without waiting for Manwë's leave, which would undoubtedly been withheld in that hour, however legitimate her desire in itself. It was thus that she came under the ban set upon all departure, and Valinor was shut against her return.

"... In the years after they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward .... Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age; and when they recieved the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it."

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

"Now on a time Finrod and Galadriel his sister were the guests of Thingol their kinsman in Doriath. ... [Finrod was so impressed with Menegroth that he had Nargothrond build, but] Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth."

Silmarillion, "Of the Return of the Noldor"

"In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women."

Lord of the Rings, Appendix B

"[Celeborn] was the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo -- a shadowy figure about whom nothing is told save that he was the younger brother of Elwë (Thingol) and Olwë, and was 'beloved of Elwë with whom he remained.' ... (By this geneology Celeborn was a kinsman of Galadriel the grand-daughter of Olwë of Alqualondë, but not so close as by that in which he became Olwë's grandson.) It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath ... but this is nowhere stated."

 Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

[At the end of the First Age]

"Then Eönwë as herald of the Elder King summoned the Elves of Beleriand to depart from Middle-earth . ..."

"Yet not all the Eldalië were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in Middle-earth. Among those were Círdan the Shipwright, and Celeborn of Doriath, with Galadriel his wife, who alone remained of those who led the Noldor to exile in Beleriand."

Silmarillion, "Of the Voyage of Eärendil"

"After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set on her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so."

 The Road Goes Ever On, quoted in Unfinished Tales

" 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' The text bearing this title is a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed, with is nonetheless almost the sole narrative source for the events in the West of Middle-earth up to the defeat and expulsion of Sauron from Eriador in the year 1701 of the Second Age. ... It is certain that this present text was composed after the publication of The Lord of the Rings. ... The text is much emended, and it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later.

"Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin,and sister of Finrod Felagund. She was welcome in Doriath, because her mother Eärwen, daughter of Olwë, was Telerin and the neice of Thingol, and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë; and she became a friend of Melian. In Doriath she met Celeborn, granson of Elmo the brother of Thingol. For love of Celeborn, who would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there) she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador." ...

"But eventually Galadriel ... preceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains.

"Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the (primarily but by no means solely) Noldor realm of Eregion. It may be that Galadriel chose it because she knew of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm (Moria). ... Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath."[But those dwarves were unrelated to the dwarves of Khazad-dûm.]

[The history of the making of the Rings of Power is similar to that told in the Appendices of Lord of the Rings, although here Celeborn and Galadriel are the rulers of the elven kingdom in Eregion, and Celebrimbor works for them. Then, under Sauron's bad influence, Celebrimbor and his smiths revolt and drive Celeborn and Galadriel out of power (around 1350 or 1400 SA). Galadriel moves to the other side of the mountains, and takes up the rule of Lórinand (later Lórien). After the First War of the Rings, at the end of the Second Age, Galadriel leaves her son Amroth in charge of Lórien, and lives variously in Rivendell and Belfalas, until Amroth dies and she returns to Lórien.]

Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tale

The Kinslaying

Tolkien Discussion Group August 11, 2010 Topic: The Kinslaying, mostly Present: Shawn Daysleeper Ilianor Illios Lihan Taifun Rosie Gray AelKennyr Rhiano Summary: All of Eärwen's children -- Olwë's grandchildren -- went into exile with the Noldor. So Olwë was hit twice: first by the Kinslaying, then by seeing all his descendants go into exile. The second group of Noldor -- those traveling with Fingon and Fingolfin, rather than Feänor -- arrived at Alqualondë in the middle of the battle, not knowing who started it, or why. Did they share the same moral responsibility for the Kinslaying? If the second group of Noldor thought the Teleri were acting on orders from the Valar to stop them, would that have made a difference in the responsibility? The Valar in fact did very little to stop the Noldor, only warning them of the eventual consequences. The Noldor's actions are a similar archetype to Eve taking the apple in the Garden of Eden -- the desire to be "godlike", to control one's own destiny. This may be the reason the Noldor are written as the "heroes" of the story. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Shall we start? Did anyone find anything interesting in this chapter? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I have to confess I haven't read it lately Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Last week's group picked it. The three clans of elves, and their leaders, and how they came to Aman. It seems like we might already know all this. Shawn Daysleeper: . I found this chapter to be pretty straight forward Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . You must have a story though, Shawn! Rosie Gray smiles broadly Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Getting everyone moved in to their new homes {AelKennyr arrives. Greetings all around.} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . We are just trying to find something interesting about tonight's chapter Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I liked the part where the Teleri took all the jewels and dumped them on the seashore, and had the prettiest beach! AelKennyr Rhiano beams Shawn Daysleeper smiles. Ya we Teleri do things like that Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I wonder what the Noldor thought of that. It probably happened before Feanor was born AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes It was part of our Alqualonde Urban Renewal Program Shawn Daysleeper laughs AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Keep Alqualonde Beautiful! Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Pick up your trash? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I always wondered why Tolkien chose the Noldor to be the "heroic" elves? Does that make sense? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . They had the most growing up to do? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm Not sure I'd go too far looking for "sense" in Tolkien! Shawn Daysleeper: . They were risk takers, more so than the other kindreds Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . He just had to pick a group to be the good guys AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hahah Hey I'm serious Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Were they more of risk takers? Or just that they got off to a bad start, and had to do a lot to clean things up again AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It's interesting...the Teleri were the sailors, but the Noldor were the swashbucklers Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . and the Sindar the forest dwellers -- except for the caves ㋡ AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Here is a question...what would have happened to the Teleri post LOTR? I mean, we have them involved in Ea, and they are now part of the world actively...but if we look back to Tolkien...would they just have remained "homebodies?" Shawn Daysleeper: . The Teleri probably would have stayed in Alqualonde, in Tolkein, post LOTR AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I often wondered how poor Earwen felt about all that. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . How do you mean? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Earwen stayed in Tirion? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, by all accounts she does. Consider that she is Teleri, but married to a Noldor. So "conflicted" must be an understatement at the time of the Kinslaying.. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes indeed AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Then you have what comes later...with the Noldor. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Presumably it took a while for the news to get back to Tirion AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Her children are raised in the Noldor culture, with Noldor values....and that bloody history. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Some of the Noldor did abandon the trip, and go back home, but they weren't the ones who really know what happened In Alqualonde Shawn Daysleeper nods AelKennyr Rhiano nods, too Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or she might have gone back home to Alqualonde herself AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Would she have left her family? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . How many of her children stayed? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Which pull would have been stronger...the pull of her husband and children, or the pull of her Teleri heritage? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Tirion would have been lovely, and comforting too though, because they could see the two trees AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Persumably she remains in Tirion with Finarfin Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Finarfin went back to Tirion, but all the children went on? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Checking myself on that one Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was having trouble finding it Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I get pretty confused about that Shawn Daysleeper: . I thought I read Finarfin's sons were involved in the wars in Dorthornion Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Finrod founded the original Minas Tirith in the Pass of Sirion, and was later Lord of Nargothrond. He was the oldest son Shawn Daysleeper: . So her sons went in exile. Were there any daughters? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Galadriel Shawn Daysleeper: . ah yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . ㋡ The lovely Galadriel Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . We have Galadriel's grandpa here with us AelKennyr Rhiano: . . She has my nose :) Shawn Daysleeper: . I have trouble keeping some of the genealogy straight AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Angrod was the second son. His name was a Sindarized form of his Telerin Quenya name Angarato, which means "Iron Champion". Together with Aegnor he held the northen slopes of the highlands of Dorthonion against Morgoth. They were both killed in the Dagor Bragollach Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I think a whole bunch of them were descendants of Melian too, but it's hard to keep it all straight Shawn Daysleeper: . I have to refer to the family trees a lot Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, hurray for the family trees! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Aegnor is the youngest brother. All are older than Galadriel. Aegnor never married. He was in love with the Bëorian woman Andreth, and she returned his feelings, but because it was wartime he did not make his intentions towards her clear, and was killed soon after. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, nice Shawn Daysleeper: . So it seems Earwen's decendants went to exile, and Finarfin alone returned AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The name Aegnor is a Sindarized form of his Quenya name Aikanár or Aikanáro, meaning "Sharp Flame" or "Fell Fire". Only Angrod and Galadriel had children. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . let's see if that helps a bit AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So, in a way Olwe suffered for the transgressions of the Noldor twice over... Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . poor Olwe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . First the kinslaying...then watching his grandchildren go into exile. Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, poor Olwe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So in the 4th Age rp...Olwe seeking the Teleri is very .....poetic? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Do we know what happened to Olwe? as far as Tolkien canon goes, I mean? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Only that he lives and reigns in Alqualonde Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . ah Then it does leave scope! Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . at least he was king of Alqualonde the last anyone heard from him AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yeah Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . which was, what? about the time of Numenor? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Some of those grandchildren involved in the kinslaying, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Were they ? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . weren't they in the group that came in late, and didn't know how it started? Shawn Daysleeper: . Fingon and Fingolfin lead the group that came later into Alqua AelKennyr Rhiano nods, but would that have included Olwe's grandchildren? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . probably AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Would they have really attacked Grandpa's home? Rosie Gray giggles Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Weren't they hanging out with their cousins? and that is why they went on? to stay with their cousins AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I believe they went out of a sense of duty to their kin Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . they arrived in the middle of the battle, and had no idea who attacked who, just that their kin were being shot at Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That would be very confusing, when you put it that way {Ilianor has to leave. Goodbyes all around.} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So the group traveling with Fingon and Fingolfin weren't "at fault" in the Kinslaying in the same way the group with Feanor was Shawn Daysleeper: . yes i'd say so AelKennyr Rhiano nods. I would agree with that Shawn Daysleeper: . Elf kills elf Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Just at fault by blood, yeah Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Well, Teleri killed some Noldor, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . In self defense Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Were the Noldor with Fingon and Fingolfin acting in self defense? Shawn Daysleeper: . The Teleri were winning until Fingon and his group showed up AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But we didn't attack first Shawn Daysleeper: . no Feanor started the attack, after speaking to Olwe. Fingon and his company joined the fight after seeing that his kin were falling. And they thought the Teleri were told by the Valar to stop the Noldor AelKennyr Rhiano: . . which the Teleri would have done, I think Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Probably a more reasonable conclusion to jump to than to think Feanor was trying to steal Teleri ships Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, sorry I just don't remember enough about this aspect AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, there are not a lot of details. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . We are getting into Namo's job: were the Noldor in Fingon's group morally at fault? Shawn Daysleeper: . I am not sure morals of this sort were considered before the Kinslaying Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Although, if they thought the Valar had put the Teleri up to it, does that make a better excuse? There had never been an elf-against-elf battle before Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Why would they think that the Valar would do such a thing though? Shawn Daysleeper: . I don't think the Valar would have risked the Teleri's lives to stop the Noldor AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I do, I can see where they would. I don't think they thought they WERE risking the Teleri. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Can you explain Ael? I'm a bit lost AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think, perhaps, IF the Valar had asked the Teleri to stop the Noldor... It would have been with the thought that, as elves, the Teleri would understand the Noldor better, their wants, desires, motivations. This would have been foreign, perhaps to the Valar. Shawn Daysleeper: . true Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm yes AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But I don't think the Valar would have encompassed that elf would turn against elf. Shawn Daysleeper: . but would they have asked the Teleri to stop the Noldor by force? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I can't imagine that AelKennyr Rhiano: . . No, I think they may have, at the very most, asked the Teleri to restrain their cousins. If that. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Maybe advised against lending them ships AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Definitely that, Lihan. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That would be very different then Shawn Daysleeper nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not that the Teleri would have, in any case AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The Valar could have intervened at any point, remember. And even after the Kinslaying, only issued a warning Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, But that's not usually the case for adventure stories Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . What isn't usually the case? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . moderate action ㋡ AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I always think of Eve in the Garden of Eden. She took of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. The Noldor, in a manner of speaking, through their violence, did the same...and everything changed. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . More than "the fruit of knowledge of good and evil" -- the lure was "to be like gods" , to control their own destinies Shawn Daysleeper: . Yes, they ceased to be passive and became more aggressive AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Was that not how the snake tempted Eve? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . That's what I meant Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I always imagine that Eve was bored in that garden, and wanted to see things for herself AelKennyr Rhiano: . . To know good and evil...was not that a step towards godlike knowledge Shawn Daysleeper nods Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So the Noldor exiling themselves is an archetypal story AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Very much Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . A very teenage thing to do, too AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod nod nod Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hehe Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Which is maybe the same thing ... it's something humans all go through Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Seems to be, indeed AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nod nod nod NOD Shawn Daysleeper: . Ya it happens when they reach middle school Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . and I was just thinking that it's a step towards humanity, that Tolkien was eventually leading us to Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Are you including elves in that "humanity"? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Were the elves supposed to become more human? Shawn Daysleeper: . Could be Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes... Well I didn't mean them precisely. I meant the epic, if that makes sense AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and that is why the Noldor are the heroes of the story? They are doing the epic, archetypal thing AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yeah Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and the Teleri are being the good little children, the Teleri and the Vanyar AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and having no fun! Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . lol and the Sindar AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But you guys have a little adventure Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes certainly Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Sindar get adventure Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . but it all ends badly AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We sit around, sing songs around the campfire, polish our boats, and what...take up knitting? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . The Noldor end badly Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hehehhe Shawn Daysleeper: . lol Well, we brush our hair too Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . You could go to Vanyar music festivals. (That sounds so boring.) AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh..oh...We could have riverboat gambling on the docks Shawn Daysleeper: . yeah AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Or form a rock elf group. We have the hair for it. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yes, we know so little about elven music styles. I don't think Aman passed any ordinances against casinos .... hmmm AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh Shawn Daysleeper: . well, all of those gems are still on the beaches... AelKennyr Rhiano pretends to roll dice..."Come on, baby, daddy needs a new set of ...um....elf ears?" I could see Olwe getting into the blues...or hard rock. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . How long did it take to rebuild the Teleri population? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We are never told. Shawn Daysleeper: . I do not think it is clear, yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . A while, I'm sure AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is even confusion on how many children Olwe DID have. Shawn Daysleeper: . wow Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not to mention confusion about Galadriel AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We know about Earwen by name...but in spots, there are mentions of sons. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . early history AelKennyr Rhiano nods. That, too. And Olwe's wife is a complete mystery...There is no mention of a Teleri Queen. Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . But Rosie's family tree listed a name for her AelKennyr Rhiano: . . She is not mention by Name in the Silmarillion Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Must have come from some other draft, then. For all the talk about how equal male and female elves were, we sure don't hear much about the women Shawn Daysleeper nods Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I think that was Rajani's family tree she made up of our original players. There were some non-canon names on it Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ohhhh Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . want to see it again? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . So maybe some previous Olwe had a non-canon wife Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . maybe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I thought she may have been mentioned in the histories Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Goes back awhile. Rosie Gray gave you Elves Family Tree. See the characters that are non-canon have the asterisks AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But for certain, she is unnamed in the Silmarillion and is nowhere referred to as a Teleri Queen Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Perhaps it was immaculate... errr... immaculate something! rofl AelKennyr Rhiano: . . It was a dark and stormy night.. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . And yes I agree Lihan, not much attention paid to the female elves AelKennyr Rhiano: . . If you look on that family tree Rosie gave us, Napolde is non canon name Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yep Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, that makes more sense Shawn Daysleeper: . I checked some sites, there is a general consensus Olwe's wife was never named Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . She must have been kept in the kitchen, pregnant AelKennyr Rhiano: . . And it is weird because it has a line down to Anaire, as though she were a child of Olwe's, which is decidedly wrong Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmm yes Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . There may have been some reason she did that. I don't know AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Has anyone ever played Elmo? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not that I remember Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I don't remember anyone Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Yeah, who knows what parts were ever assigned, long ago Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . This is from 2 years ago, so things have changed alot. Still, it's somewhat useful AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I don't know who Orodreth is supposed to be? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That's canon AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Oh wait, I do Shawn Daysleeper: . 2nd son of Finarfin Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, he is AelKennyr Rhiano: . . That is wrong. He is in the wrong place on the line. Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . supposed to be second son of Finarfin, so, that's correct I think AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no.... the son of Angrod and nephew of Finrod Felagund Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm That's not what it says in my Sil Shawn Daysleeper: . It says in the Silmarillion index he is 2nd son of Finarfin Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yep AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ummm ok Shawn Daysleeper: . also on the family tree: 2nd son AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ok. I'm getting myself confused then, which is not surprising. lol Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . That's easy to do AelKennyr Rhiano: . . sorry, and I probably will confuse myself again Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Interesting to see the family trees entwined like this, isn't it? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . All the royal families intermarrying Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Just like rl. Easy to see the comparison Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . And then getting their loyalties all tangled up Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . yes Shawn Daysleeper: . yes Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . like Olwe's poor grandkids AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I love this conversation, dear friends, but another matter calls me away Shawn Daysleeper: . so there may not have been a close connection bewteen Olwe's grandkids and Olwe AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Thank you for a delight night....:) Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh dear AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Perhaps we can talk about the "kids" next time? {Farewells} Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Which kids are we talking about next week? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmm, guess we better pick some famous "kids" Shawn Daysleeper: . Much of chapter 5 is a discussion of the kids of the Princes of the Eldalie. So we can continue chapter 5 then? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true,but not very interesting things about them. Galadriel was certainly famous Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . She was. hmmm, but that is jumping ahead quite alot. I dunno Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, there are two totally different stories about how she met Celeborn Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . are there? Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In one version, he was from Alqualonde, and the two of them fought on the Teleri side, at the kinslaying Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . oooh Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . In another verision, he was from Eregion. I don't think Tolkien ever decided which version to go with. Or he kept changing his mind Shawn Daysleeper: . dramatic difference, wow Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, interesting Shawn Daysleeper: . Celeborn has interested me Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . He's a mysterious character Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Any idea what chapter that would be? Shawn Daysleeper: . I don't see page references by his name in the index Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I see the index of Silmarillion says he is from Doriath, so maybe there are three versions Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . Yes, we considered him so. but, hmmm Shawn Daysleeper: . Is there 2 Celeborns? Shawn Daysleeper: . one from Doriath? and the one with Galadriel? Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . I don't think so.Galadriel was a dear friend of Melian Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . No, Silmarillion says Galadriel stayed in Doriath with Celeborn, p 135 Shawn Daysleeper: . ah ok Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . so maybe this is a good topic! ㋡ Shawn Daysleeper: . k, page 135 Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . maybe it is! Shawn Daysleeper: . cool, he is a very interesting character Rosie Gray: . . . . . . . . . so, Celeborn and Galadriel for next week? Shawn Daysleeper: . sure Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . sounds good!