Aulë and Yavanna

Tolkien Discussion Group

April 29, 2010

Topic: Simlarillion Book Chapter: Aulë and Yavanna

Present:

AelKennyr Rhiano

Lihan Taifun

Shawn Daysleeper

Fifi Wickentower

Dominique Darkwatch

Summary:

 The conversation between Aulë and Yavanna is one of the few recorded "marital spats" of the Valar. We never get to hear what Uinen said to Ossë, when Ossë rebelled. These stories are more in the style of Valar-as-GrecoRoman-gods, rather than Valar-as-projections-of- Ilúvatar.

Aulë acted a bit guilty, hiding from the other Valar that he was making the dwarves. On some level, he must have suspected that the other Valar, and Ilúvatar, wouldn't approve.

Although Aulë thought he was acting on his own, and gets called on the carpet by Ilúvatar, there is the strong suggestion that Ilúvatar had planned for Aulë and the Dwarves all along. So what does that say about free will and the plans of Ilúvatar?

Didn't Aulë sing the Dwarves in the Great Song? At first, the Ainur didn't realize that the Great Song was creating a world, so the Ainur wouldn't have necessarily have realized how various parts of the Song would look in the world.

The description of the origin of Ents sounds almost like the Ents are Maiar, which is not how we usually think of Ents.

Why did Aulë create Dwarf Fathers without Dwarf Mothers? Was he that unclear on how physical beings operate? He really should have asked Yavanna about that part.

---

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Our continent is called Arda, Shawn, and across the various sims, we have several different rps, including two different Tolkien based ones...

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I read the chapter in the Silmarillion. Interesting relationship between Aule and Yavanna.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . in what way?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Once the dwarves are created, remember what was said?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . They will need wood?? lots of wood?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes. Yavanna loves tree and nature

Dominique Darkwatch: . There did to seem to be this striving between them

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "You should have told me about your plans"

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . exactly

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . He didn't care that the plants were her 'babies'

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I always wondered why he hid what he did, even from her.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He acted a little guilty about his plans

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and I am the only one who noticed the 7 dwarves????

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . It could be he feared Illuvater

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . worrying that the other Valar wouldn't approve

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . sneaky

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . to fear Illuvatar implies he believe he was doing something contrary to the creator's plans, doesn't it?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He worried they wouldn't approve, but did he wonder if he was doing something wrong?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yep

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so didn't he sort of rebell against Illuvatar?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, but he was quick to come back into the fold

Dominique Darkwatch: . He was invoking his own his own will, similar to what Melkor had done

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . precisely, Dominique. So that got me to rethinking the question of Ainur free will again.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and he felt guilty enough to try to hide it from the other Valar, which implies he supspected he was rebelling. He suspected he was taking his authority too broadly

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And he is not the only one who rebels...remember Osse. He rebelled too, at one point

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, under Melkor's influence. Osse started to fall under Melkor's influence

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Melkor promised him Ulmo's position

Dominique Darkwatch: . The dwarves were not the children of Iluvatar...Aule seemed to want children of his own

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He did. "Impatient" the story says

Dominique Darkwatch: . So there is this vanity that comes into play, too

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We have no discourse between Osse and Unien to see her thoughts on his rebellion, like we do with Aule and Yavanna, Aule and Yavanna is one of our few "maritial spats" among the Valar.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I bet Uinen has a few things to say. Anyone who could keep Osse in line must have been some strong character

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod

Shawn Daysleeper agrees

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so Osse gets his old job back, and Aule gets to keep his dwarves, and Melkor goes off to be a bad guy

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yeah, but how long did Aule have to sleep on the couch?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . heh heh Before or after the dwarves chopped down trees?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . hope the couch was comfy.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It didnt sound like an unusual conversation for those two. It sounded like a description of how they usually got along

Dominique Darkwatch: . So maybe they were at odds quite often?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or partners in an arranged marriage....

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . You know even the elves didn't do arranged marriages.Like the elves, they have other interests in addition to each other

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . However, the elves were not patterned, in part on the Greek and Romans gods

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And there are strong resemblances between the Valar and the Greek and Roman dieties.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . true. Some stories morethan others

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . relationships between dieties are totally different from those between members of other races

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . because?

Dominique Darkwatch: . I wonder if Aule was ever tempted to flirt with someone else

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not with Tolkien writing the story, I bet

Dominique Darkwatch: . haha...yes, quite right. Although letting him and Yavanna bicker just a bit is interesting

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . The Greek and Roman gods acted very human.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and not very virtuous

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . There were petty jealousies, squabbles, betrayals...oh, indeed.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . they were just bigger and stronger than humans

Dominique Darkwatch: . But I thought ainur were supposed to be more like angelic beings

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . How many of the Greater and lesser ainur had tempers? or were envious or quick to fight? I think we are sometimes to quick to slap a label on them.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . true

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And even angels fall.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . But we can at least some days think of the Ainur as expressions of Iluvatar's thought, which no one would think about Greek & Roman gods

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . however...Athena?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what about Athena?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . She sprung out of her daddy's head

Dominique Darkwatch: . Like a thought?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So, in a way...she was a god's "brain child"

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and considering what a womanizer her daddy was, that is ... unusual for him

Dominique Darkwatch giggles

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Yes, very much, since she is the goddess of wisdom, and was as disspassionate as her brother Apollo was mercurial

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so what does that have to do with Yavanna & Aule?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about seeing the Valar in the context of greek and romans gods is when rpers try to play Valar as godlike.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, it is just that I find their relationship more human than I first thought when I read it long ago

Dominique Darkwatch nods: yes, especially these two

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, for roleplay there are problems with playing them godlike

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and more like the greek and roman dieties, which argues that perhaps they are more colored by individual thought and biases and free will than we often consider

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . The Ainur all seem to have personalities, at least , as much as the stories tell about them

Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, their personalities is what drives their creativity

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and Illuvatar said "even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, . .. "AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . The Greek and Roman gods were well acquainted with the Fates and Destiny, and they knew that some things were preordained, but that seldom stopped them. Did Aule fall into this category, too?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not letting what was preordained stop him?

AelKennyr Rhiano nods. So...could it be argued, Fifi, that Aule's actions were in line with Illuvatar's will?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Would not this staement indicate the Ainur had will and thought of their own? and yes . . it could be argued so. imo

AelKennyr Rhiano nods thoughtfully

Dominique Darkwatch: . Hmm...maybe Iluvatar made an accomodation for Aule and his creations

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . what was it Manwe was saying later, about he wasn't paying attention to everything in the Song?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes . . that is exactly what he did . . he said it is the the only time he will amend his work

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but also, later, when Iluvatar rewinds the tape, and lets Manwe listen again

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and manwe didn't 'hear' all the song even when he heard it the first time... yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Manwe notices all sorts of things that he didn't notice the first time. exactly

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . just as with ppl . . . upon re-reading/listening/watching new details are observed

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . "Thus it seemed to Manwe that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that thought he had heard them he had not heeded before.""And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it...." I find that very telling

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And the implication that Iluvatar at least knew and approved of those details, although "knew and approved" isn't exactly the same as "planned"

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . which indicates depth - just as the Professor's work is many layered, itself

Dominique Darkwatch: . Indeed

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . the idea of being removed from the vision because you are now involved

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Maybe Aule forgot part of the Song?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Could Aule have not realized he was singing that part? Maybe the Ainur didn't realize the implications of everything they were singing?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Maybe he wasn't listening?? Maybe he was thinking his own thoughts and dreaming of his own desire for children

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think at first the Ainur didn't realize their Song was creating a world

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That was always my impression

Dominique Darkwatch nods and agrees

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . but Iluvator brought them together to sing the Great Song just for that purpose . . no they didn't know

Dominique Darkwatch: . Iluvatar did not reveal everything all at once

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so they wouldn't necessarily know how it was all going to turn out, or what it would look like

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Or over time, they became less "angelic" and ethereal?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . How is that related?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . as they moved deeper into a physical manifestation, yes, i believe so -- yay!! it's the ever-present off-topic!!

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Fifi's favorite!

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . lol

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They probably did, but is it related to how much they understood the Song? Is there some connection I am missing?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I doubt it, Lihan

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . (Shawn will notice our vast inability to stick to the topic -- any topic)

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . (what was our topic?) hahahahaha kidding

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Dragons who eat swans, of course

Dominique Darkwatch: . We had a topic?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . but . . it does all eventually come back to my favorite topic . . the Ainur

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I notice the dwarves have hardly gotten any mention tonight

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . oh - those guys

Dominique Darkwatch: . The poor little things

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . dirty little hair balls

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . They were forced to stay asleep so I guess that part of the song was planned?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I guess we did snark a bit about there being seven of them

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . the 7 dwarf fathers . . . . hahaha

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya them

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . (hi, ho, hi ho...it's off to sleep we go)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Iluvatar did insist that the Firstborn -- the elves -- had to come first. No cutting in line

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . lol

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . At thispoint - the dwarves are not really in play

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . No, they are alseep

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . As I understand it the ents awoke before dwarves

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Did they?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I'm not positive

Dominique Darkwatch: . It makes sense to let the shepherds out before releasing the wolves

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Galadriel called Treebeard eldest

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought both the ents and the dwarves were waiting for the elves

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Elves came before dwarves

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The ents have not yet made a showing . . but their creation is explained . . . in this chapter. Are they not the Shepherds of the Trees?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . but dwarves were made first

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . You say "creation", but it also says "spirits will decend" to become the ents, which sounds a bit like Maiar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So ents are Maiar?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes . . nods . . point taken

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought that was unclear

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I didn't know ents were Maiar. It makes sense though

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . But we know ents reproduce: entwives, and entlings.And ents can be killed

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . the spirit takes on the appropriate form, in this case more plant

Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, I was under the impresion they were meant to be Yavanna's counter to the dwarves

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Maiar can be killed

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared" That part sounds very Maia

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Although in general the ents don't sound very Maia-like, not the ones we meet

AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Perhaps they become more "earthbound", and therefore less spirit? or spiritual. Or the vision is remote to them, too, now?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Or the only ents we meet are children of the originals?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Not less spirit - spirit in a more earthbound form

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I'll go with that :)

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . :)

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So if Aule had not made the 7 dwarf fathers, maybe the ents would not have appeared?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Some of the places Treebeard mentions are from the First Age. I think you are right, Shawn

Dominique Darkwatch: . yes

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . maybe so, Shawn . . . .. they came from need . .not original song

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . and Yavanna pleads to have the ents guard the olvar. So that is a major difference in Aule and Yavanna's thoughts. Aule creates, yavanna asks

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And, what about some dwarf mothers? There is a serious oversight there

{Lihan crashes and relogs.}

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I was commenting on the individualistic behaviour of the Valar

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . since each has their own area . .one wouldn't expect them to be carbons off each other

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They certainly aren't

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . And not like a busby berkeley musical either. But the whole of them - together - - that creates another 'whole'. Also - remembering that the only view of the Ainur, is once again, the elven view

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So the Ainur should be considered a collective entitity?

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Perhaps, each one fills a niche

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . As the whole is greater than the sum of the parts . . just as Arda is made up of many parts and together makes a whole world

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Cells of the body . .each has it's own area and each togetherwork to make a whole. So not a collective and yet a collective ^^ Each of Donald's feathers is separtae and special on its own . .and together they make a lovely gown. In that sense

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think also, the longer they were a part of this material world, they grew to evolve and grow more individualistic.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . And became more bonded with the denser form

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . having had the chance to have some experiences

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Form has it's own limitations

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . "spiritual beings having mortal experiences"

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . bingo Just like RL

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . A professor of mine once said that the Greek and Roman gods were more of a comment on the human condition than humans themselves in those mythologies

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We noticed in a previous week how the Ainur started out with no practical experience at all

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . For the Greek and Roman gods, yes But then Tolkien wasn't always exactly copying his models. Sometimes he was trying to do something new, with older themes

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . All they know are the Divine Realm . . music and their own thought and Illuvatar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . True But perhaps Professor Tolkien was using them to remind us of the converse: that humans say something about the divine condition

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think with Aule, Tolkien must have been working with the "subcreator" story, and trying to make it come out different

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . 'man created in God's image'

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . You are familiar with gnostic stories about the creation of humans?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The higher can see the lower . . the lower can only see/sense/or perceive one level or so above their own consciousness

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Humans were created by a somewhat inept spirit-being, who was seriously exceeding his authority in doing that. So, basically, human existance is all a big mistake.Certainly the physical world is a mistake. And the male-female thing is a mistake

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . huh?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the gnostic versions of the creation of humans

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . The world of duality is a mistake?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . at least SOME of the gnostic versions

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . *am a gnostc, personally . . am not familiar with that premise

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ah Well, some versions tell the story that way

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Before we get too much futher off track...topic for next week?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, next week

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Continue with this topic?Go with another?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We hardly got to the dwarves at all

Dominique Darkwatch: . Dwarves and ents?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We could talk about Aule and the 7 dwarfs

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Dwarves were asleep lol

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And when DO the dwarf mothers show up?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yeah. And how do we recognize the dwarf mothers anyway

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That was apparently on the list of things Iluvatar wasn't planning on fixing

{Fifi crashes and relogs}

Dominique Darkwatch: . Yeah, big oversight on Aule's part

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, if he had asked Yavanna, she would have explained how that part works

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . LOL

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maybe Aule really didn't know

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ouch

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Why would he have known? No elves around yet

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . It wasn't his department

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He doesn't pay attention to the animals

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . well, there is Yavanna. I mean...blushes...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, but does Aule realize that also is important to reproduction?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Do Valar have sex? AelKennyr Rhiano blushes

Dominique Darkwatch: . Does Aule even care?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Fifi, we were just discussing, did Aule even KNOW that females were important to the plot? That he should have made some female dwarves?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . good question

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . that could be another topic "Sex and the Single Ainu"

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . hmm

Dominique Darkwatch: . Might explain the tension between he and Yavanna

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Once, long ago, Rajani wrote up something explaining why Valar could have... well, it will take some searching. We can put that on the list for the dwarves -- should Aule have created some females? And why did he forget?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ok

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . good topic

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . because the Ainur were less accustomed to thinking in terms of gender?

Dominique Darkwatch smiles: yes

Shawn Daysleeper agrees

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . nice of you to join us Shawn

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes indeed

Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Thank you :)

Ainur Action, Interference and Free Will

Tolkien Discussion Group

April 21, 2010

Topic: Ainur Action, Interference and Free Will

Present:

Fifi Wickentower

InyaRay Oktomica

AelKennyr Rhiano

Lihan Taifun

Dominique Darkwatch

Ossy Portocarrero

Summary:

Do the Ainur "interfere" in events in Middle Earth?

How often have the Ainur acted at all?

• bringing the elves to the Undying Lands
• warning the Noldor about leaving
• the Ainur army that helped destroy Morgoth's fortess of Angband
•  sinking Númenor
•  sending the Five Wizards to Middle Earth

 If Ainur act, does that interfere with the Children's free will? Considering the actual effects of the Valar's few actions, the Children exercised their free will anyway.

Do Ainur have free will? or are they projections of parts of Ilúvatar's thoughts?

• At the beginning, each Ainu made a personal contribution to the Song.
• As far as we know, the decision to bring the elves to Aman was made by the Valar, without any direct suggestion from Ilúvatar.
•  Ilúvatar seems to delegate a lot, and to let others' decisions run their course. This fits with Tolkien's Christian attitudes.
•  Melkor's disobedience seems to be clear evidence of free will. But what if Ilúvatar wanted a universe of light and dark, good and evil, to give the Children opportunity to exercise their decision-making powers.

To the extent that Ainur are simply obeying Ilúvatar's will, then the question becomes, "Does Ilúvatar interfere?".

Why did Melkor get in trouble for exercising free will? It wasn't his "free will" that was the problem, it was his pride and power-hunger, insisting on having everything his own way.

Will Melkor ever escape from his banishment? Probably.

---

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . hi, Fifi. Are you chewing on a book?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Word termite that's me. Hungry for knowledge hehe

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . We managed to get to this week without a topic. Anyone have a favorite question to discuss?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I love the story of the music.. but not sure about discussion of it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . How much do the Ainur know about future-history?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I thought they were spared final knowledge..

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . It does seem like things get pretty vague once the Children show up

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I was told that only Mandos and Manwe knew the fate of men

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Isn't that because they are they ones telling te tale?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . You said "spared"? Would it be a bad thing?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . It seems so. That they took less part in things.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I can see using the word "spared". They might have interefered more with elves and men if they saw more of the future events

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . ahem . . interfered?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . would they?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . What did finally become of them? it seems they became less

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Move from being advisors to actively participating

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I think just less involved once the novlty ofthe Children wore off

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That could be

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . as the world became enser ven the origial children removed themseves. ok - chat lag on top of everything else

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . How many times DID they interfere at all? Feanor and the Silmarils. Morgoth.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . never did interfere

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . wait

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . oh well - details lol

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Didn't they? What about Gandalf?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Right, and sending the five wizards. And a few messages, mostly by Ulmo

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Was thier counsel not wanted? and yet now we have elves demanding that the Ainur participate . . interfere

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . well, how many times do we hear of anyone asking the Ainur for advice?

AelKennyr Rhiano raises his hand

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Did you need permission?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I meant I asked the Ainur for advice

InyaRay Oktomica smiles

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . um, ok, that's once ...

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Well .. i think it is interference, even if protection to lead the elves to a land

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . oh, right (duh!) bringing the elves to Aman in the first place! Maybe that is why Tolkien didn't write much about the Ainur? The stories are about the elves, and the humans, making their own decisions (for better or worse)

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . if you are assuming that there is a Christian subtext to Tolkien's work , then wouldn't this be analogous to how the angels tried to decide how to interact with mankind?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . um, did angels?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . babylon was some interaction :)

AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Many times. Jacob wrestling with an angel

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Babylon?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Well angels interacting with humans

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Mandos pronounced judgement.. that was some interaction, though a bit indrect .

{Dominique arrives. Greetings all around.}

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . we are mostly discussing how much the Ainur interact with elves and humans, and whether it is "interference". And whether it is analogous to Christian angels

Dominique Darkwatch: . They really didn't seem to interact very much

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . we thought of a few examples, not a lot of examples

Dominique Darkwatch: . Yes, if they were sufficiently provoked

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think, when you really look, they do interefere at times...if it served the will of Illuvatar or they felt compelled in some way or were asked

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Do we know any more about "the will of Iluvatar", besides how the story turned out?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . interfere - to try to run the affairs of others; also means to collide or be in opposition

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Of course do we know how much fee will did the ainur have?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I for one prefer not to interfere

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I always thought the Ainur had free will

Dominique Darkwatch: . I would hardly call anything they did "meddling" as such

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . although - interefere is appropo regarding the dark one and his original refusal to sing the song

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do angels have free will?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . They are so close to Illuvitar..

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . eh, I've heard conflicting reports about angels. Not that I actually know any angels

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I do ")

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Maybe because of that close relationship, they do not need free will

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . To be the thought of another

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . That was a gift/curse for hmanknd

AelKennyr Rhiano nods at Inya's words

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Yet the thoughts did evolve. As was said.. each sang at first their own song I believe

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Wouldnt that just push the question to "does Iluvatar interfere?"

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . Mandos pronounced his judgement

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . on the Noldor,you mean?

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and that was basically "if you do this, this will happen"

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . It was my undersatnding that Illuvitar decided and Mandos only pronounced it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes ...

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yet Orome found th elves on his own and led them to safety, on his own, it seems

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Didn't he ask the rest of the Valar, before bringing them back?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Did he?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . I thought that was a group decision, even though Orome did the leading

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . he told them of it.. but it was not a decision of Illuvitar, overtly. They all wanted to do it

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . but , like you said, there is no evidence Iluvatar was pushing for that solution

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Nor evidence he was not. : We are left to guess

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Iluvatar delegates a lot

Dominique Darkwatch: . Iluvatar seems to sometimes let things fall where they may

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that's ... um ... why the universe is run the way it is

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and the way Christians perceive God to operate

Dominique Darkwatch: . He seemed to allow Melkor's mischief to run free for a long time, as did the Valar

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . so if there are Christian overtones, this would make sense.

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . non intererence as interference. Knowing the course and allowing

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . One could ask if Melkor really did break from Illuvatar or did he serve Illuvatar's will by rebelling as he did.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes!

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . so strong he was..

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Philosophers have been gnawing on that one for thousands of years

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . *chews a little more

Dominique Darkwatch: . Melkor proves the point of free will

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Does he?

Dominique Darkwatch: . He was discordant and Iluvatar allowed his song to be incorporated into the rest of creation

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Perhaps his discordance was part of the plan.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Like black threads in a tapestry? adding contrast

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . how can morals have free will, if they never have the need to exercise it? Melkor provided the opportunity for that free will to be exercised.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . a world of duality will have choices, as many choices as there beings

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, but, without Melkor

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yes :)

Dominique Darkwatch: . And Melkor exercised his own to the detriment of the elves, whom he hated

{Ossy arrives. Greetings all around.}

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . ok so,... Melkor.. valar.. something?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Do Ainur have free will? do Ainur "interfere" with humans and elves?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . What do you think, Ossy?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Yes and no. Well... Ossy Portocarrero rubs chin. Ok, lets consider the creation of the world...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . or are Ainur just projections of the thought of Iluvatar?

Dominique Darkwatch: . Well, Melkor certainly was interfering, meddling and all up in it

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . all that singing they were doing... that was all 'their own doing'. But when he started causing a ruckus Illuvatar told him Quiet down *bitch slap*... everything you do is only a reflection of me... and since it all comes from me, I can do it better and you will only ever imitate you will never create. And they ARE reflections of small parts of Illuvatar... He said as much, directly. Even Melkor being bad... was in a way Illuvatar's Idea.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . but isn't everything a reflection? all of creation?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . in a sense, but he gave his children, elves and men.. free will. Tolkien says so in the book. And Humans have free will more so than any other race

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . more so than elves?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . yus because their lives are shorter their decisions tend to matter more in the long run (for them). But Valar, while they do do what they want, in so far as they are on EA and what not...they're all just doing Illuvatar's work no?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . is that actually more free will? or just more affected by it?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . :D I'm just talking!

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . yet they chose to come

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . those are good points.

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . They did :) Ea and the humans and the elves are awesome. The valar wanted to come ^^

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I suggested that Melkor, too, was serving the will of Illuvatar

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . I agree. Without badness... there is nothing to compare good against, and therefore no good

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . so even the rebel...how much free will did he have?

Dominique Darkwatch: . So destroying the two trees was Iluvatar's will?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Without strife, how can we rise up to meet it and overcome it? and without destruction, how can we ever rebuild and improve

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and Melkor ended up locked in an extra-dimensional prison by Iluvatar's power, which doesn't sound like he was serving Iluvatar's will

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . maye he was

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . If the two trees were not destroyed, how would history have been different.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Sounds like even Iluvatar agreed he was out of control

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Maybe Illuvatar needed to give his main baddie a rest, to give everyone else a chance to re-build etc. And to let Melkor's LT's get a chance to wreak some havoc

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Perhaps, he served Illuvatar's will by rebelling, but he had free will in how he rebelled, and what he did when he rebelled.

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . You know... if Illuvatar is like the Christian God I think he is. He knows whats going to happen, anyway. All the way until the last day. Does his pre-sentience make our free will invalid?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . No more than knowing after the fact does

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Humans and elves did not know Illuvatar before they were created... or before they were on Ea. The Valar did. And they came in his name to fix up the land for his children... they are like... Ea's Cops and Construction workers and stuff.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . ahem . . the Builders of Arda?? hehe

Dominique Darkwatch: . If you think of Iluvatar as a creator, like an author or artist or poet... Sometimes the creations sort of write or draw themselves in a way

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . and why free will ?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . After the passage of time, though, would not the Valar become more "earthbound"? More involved and concerned with Ea?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . They were always involved and concerned

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . If they stay too long in any one form

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . They made it with their voices and their hands...Its their baby. But because they are reflections of Illuvatar they don't necessarily interfere unless there is no other way.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . And the longer you are involved with "baby", the more attached? But once they interfere, we never know if there was another way.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and who makes the judgement of what is interference?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . If the Valar interfere... it kinda messes up the whole... free will thing. Its like over protective parents... They gotta let the kids out of the nest ya know?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . We had a handful of cases where they were involved

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Does it mess up the free will, though?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . I don't see how

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . If the valar with their powers step in and do something, it doesn't allow the people they interrupted from coming to their own ends and conclusions

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Gandalf, I think, was the most meddlesome.

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . yes he was :P

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and still the fellowship could have chosen other than he wanted

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . If an angel comes to you does that mean you lose your free will?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Angels don't often interfere, not in the same way Valar have in the books

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . bringing the elves to Aman ...and not all of the decided to come. Warning the Noldor... and most of them left anyway

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . nods

Dominique Darkwatch: . When the Numenorians resisted the ban to sail west they along with Iluvatar did swing into action

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, and that was a defensive action ... Marching an Ainur army to Morgoth's castle

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do we know for certain that Melkor will never be freed?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Im sure he will get out sooner or later

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . He did serve his purpose. There is a fundamental choice all mortal sentinent beings make now.

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I find a conflict.. in Illuvitar considering Melkor arrogant for expressing his own will, but the humans and elves have it

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That is a great question, Inya.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . It was a power trip with him tho

Dominique Darkwatch: . It was not Melkor's free will that got him in trouble... It was his pride

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . he wanted to create of his own, and mix things his own way.. as do I :)

 Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . (I found the passage about what happened to Melkor)

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Doors of Night,: beyond the walls of the world, into the Timeless Void, and a guard is set forever on those walls"

They wouldn't have set a guard, unless there was a danger of him escaping

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . The timeless creates the timed.. the void the substance .. eep

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . and forever is a long time

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . yes but well, elves and valar live forever :D sort of...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, it seems theoretically possible for Melkor to escape

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . If there is a way he can get out, it can happen, You never know :)

InyaRay Oktomica peeps out ..

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Yes, and nothing keeps him from manipulating others.

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . indeed

InyaRay Oktomica might hear a whisper coming from .... there

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Cue the spooky music

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I mean, is his essence locked away, such that his energy cannot still influence those of weak wills

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . lol

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . And so the dance of light and dark, good and bad, tall and short continues

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . It must

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . The passage continued, saying that the lies he had planted will continue to bear fruit

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Because that what this world is

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . nod nod nod nod

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . and the only salvation is ppl like the cleric *nods to Dominique* re-introducing Illuvatar to the ppl

Dominique Darkwatch smiles and blushes

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Balancing the heaviness of the darkness, for without the light there is no other outcome

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . You need night to recognize day, sorrow to understand joy

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . heh I said all that :P

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . The Vanyar are pretty boring

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Are they, Lihan? They're all kinda one sided but... I don't think they're that boring

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . boring compared to what?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . In the fourth age it is those like Dom that will perhaps be able to remind ppl to seek for more

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . So sad .. to be that one who must provide the darkness

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . I danno Inya. Melkor was REALLY into his darkness :D

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . true :)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . You have to be able to step back a LONG ways to see it as "sad"

InyaRay Oktomica: . . . . . I do though, if he knows

Ossy Portocarrero whispers: thats a lot of stepping back Lihan xD

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Well, as I think most Valar would feel as Inya does.

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Mmm most of them felt scared about Melkor, not sad...

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Because he is removed from Illuvatar in a way they are not, at least not in the first and second age. Well it had to be frightening at first to conceive an ainu NOT obeying Illuvatar.

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Hmm Illuvatar is everywhere :D He's right next to Melkor as he does all he does...

Dominique Darkwatch: . He distanced himself by seeking the darkest places

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and Melkor is nowhere

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . Illuvatar is Spirit, Quintessence

Ossy Portocarrero rubs his chin "... maybe I just see it differently"

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . yes, but remember the Valar do not know all of the song

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . in a sense

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . I think I see your view point. And it is very intriguing.

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Even the most cruel vicious murderer has Illuvatar beside him over his shoulder.... Can the same not be said about Melkor?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Do you think that over time, the Ainur may become less etheral and more bound in earthly matters? So their scope becomes limited over time?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . I was told once that they had limited power. They more they get involved the less power they have, I'd imagine.. but they'd still be Valar...

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . If we assume Tom Bombadil was Ainu, then we have an example

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . My understanding was that if they stayed too long in an Ardan form . . .eventually it would crytallize and they would be unable to change back

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . ok, but most of them aren't Ardan most of the time. Gandalf had a long ride around... but most of them didn't as far as I understood

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes, and the form was really only necessary if there was interaction with the Children. That is a form that didn't freak ppl out

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . Yep

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and not always necessary then. Well, there are two kinds of forms ... a visible shape, and a real, functional physical body

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . only two?

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . so you could see em and not touch em

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . two categories of forms?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . yes? and then perhaps their true form? not necessarily visible

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . that would be a spirit?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . at least to the more mortal eyes, umhmm

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . yes, I wasn't counting that as a "form"

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . ok, *quibblers R us, lol

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Probably a lot of ainur who don't interact with the Children never bother with visible forms at all

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . no doubt

Ossy Portocarrero: . . . . sorry to split, I have work early and my bed is calling my name in a really haunting Melkor-like way :D So Im gonna go before it does something creepy.

{Farewells}

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Well, if you ever talk Nienna into a real physical body, she is going to be a complete klutz, because she has hardly ever done that before. Not something you need for talking to dead spirits.

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . hahahaha I got stuck behind a chair, you'll recall

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . and how many people can get their illusion-body stuck?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Maybe this is a good stopping point?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . maybe

Dominique Darkwatch: . yes

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . What will we talk about next week? phyiscal manifestations of the Valar?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . We haven't done a Silmarillion chapter in a while

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . we did really well for not having a topic ^^

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . we did great!

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . The next chapter, if we are going in order, would be Aule and Yavanna and the dwarves

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . That works for me?

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . 0kay

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Want to do that next week?

Dominique Darkwatch: . okay

Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . . sure

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . sure

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . This was a great discussion tonight

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . especially for having no topic :)

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . . Maybe we should have a open topic disucssion now and again.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . . Then we can't be accused of going off topic

Fëanor's Oath, part 2

Tolkien Discussion Group

April 7, 2010

Topic: Fëanor's Oath - Part 2

Present:

Dominique Darkwatch

Cinnamon Raymaker

Lihan Taifun

AelKennyr Rhiano

Varanwe Firehawk

Summary:

The Noldor had been leaving Middle Earth since the end of the First Age. Their numbers were also depleted by various wars with Sauron in the Second Age. By the end of the Third Age, there were not many Noldor in Middle Earth. Probably by that time there was enough intermarriage that very few elves born in Middle Earth thought of themselves as "Noldor". Possibly few elves thought of themselves as "Sindar", either.

At the end of the First Age, only two of the original Oathtakers remain - Maedhros and Maglor -- who each take one of the Silmarils recovered from Morgoth's crown. Maedhros throws his, and himself, into a chasm in the earth. Maglor throws his into the Sea, and is last seen singing laments by the seashore. Does that mean Maglor survived? Did he die of grief shortly after? It would make sense if all the Oathtakers were dead when the Valar lifted the Ban on the Noldor, at the end of the First Age.

Cinnamon plays Elwing. She is half elven - Sindar, and inherits her grandmother Luthien's Silmaril. She and her half-elven husband Eärendil chose their elven heritage. At the end of the First Age, she is living on the shores of the Undying Lands, and presumably is still living there.

Elwing seems to have retained the ability to change into a sea bird. Shape-changing elves are incredibly rare in Tolkien's universe. Her ability might be related to her being a descendant of Melian, but it is much more likely it was a special gift from Ulmo, who rescued her from drowning.

Varanwë is a descendant of Gil-galad. He spent time in Lothlorien, in Galadriel's service. After many adventures, he ended up in Sylvhara, in Queen Comet's service.

---

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . did anyone have any starting comments?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . I am just here to find out how this may affect my character

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a surprisingly common motive

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Tell us about your character :)

Dominique Darkwatch: Yes...do tell

Cinnamon Raymaker: . Well as Elwing, I am mentioned in the notecard you gave us

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, a very important role, too

Cinnamon Raymaker: . indeed. I was wondering how it might be linked in with the later rp. I haven't had a chance to do a lot

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so you live in the Blessed Lands, after the First Age?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . hmm, I am still coming to terms with what happens in the continent and how it links with the tales. Its hard to separate the two. I'm very new to the rp side of things

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Aren't we all

Cinnamon Raymaker: . and also have to keep looking back to the story. Any help gratefully accepted

Dominique Darkwatch nods: I imagine it is difficult to keep it all straight

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Elwin is half elven, correct?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . indeed. She is half elven

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . half Sindar?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . correct

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . granddaughter of Luthien and Beren

Cinnamon Raymaker: . It is the connection to the saving of a silmaril that concerns us here. That's why I wanted to come along.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . You had Luthien's Silmaril

Cinnamon Raymaker: . carried it away to safety

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes indeed

Cinnamon Raymaker: . However, my concern is with the oath. How does that affect any future rp, beyond where Elwing and Earendil sailed off? Cinnamon Raymaker smiles

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I noticed that nothing was said about the Oath, or the Doom,affecting the descendants of the original people, but everyone in the story acts as though it does

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . lotr seems to underscore that.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . which part are you thinking of?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . The whole idea that it was long after Eonwë bade them to return, but they stayed until the end of Sauron.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a few did

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Quite a few had already left. Quite a few left right away, at the end of the First Age.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Right, which is one reason why the host of elves that shows up at helm's deep in the film seem so pathetically small. Granted, I'll have to reread that part of lotr to see whether it is accurate.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . besides the fact that they are an invention of Peter Jackson

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . exactly.

Dominique Darkwatch: It was actually not in the book

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was about o say....

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . which is why i should reread it for the sake of accuracy.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I was about to say.....

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . in the book NO elves show up, nor does anyone expect them to. Strictly a human battle

Dominique Darkwatch: Peter Jackson eludes to that in his comentary, too, and wanted to up the story a bit

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . ah, I see.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think we need to divorce the movies from the works of Tolkien at present

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . It had been a while between the time I read the book and saw the movie. yes

Dominique Darkwatch: I like that the movies got more people interested in Tolkien

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Reading the Silmarillion, you would get the idea that maybe Galadriel was the only Noldo left in Middle Earth by the end of the Third Age. That might be an exaggeration, but there certainly were not many.

Varanwe Firehawk nods. But even she was half-teleri.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . from the line of Olwe.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . she was part Noldor, and in most versions of the story she went with that group

Dominique Darkwatch: It does seem like there are amazingly few

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I am not sure that is what Tolkien intended, but she is the only one of such note. But I do not think that elves did not simply disappear overnight.

Dominique Darkwatch: But Tolkien had the elves on a very steep decline in Middle Earth

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . yes.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and they had been gradually taking ship since the end of the First Age, and getting killed in various wars with Sauron

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, I don't thinkI can agree entirely with that statement. The eldar clans were withdrawing from Middle Earth. But that does not mean the "wild elves" were.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . good point

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . The Teleri were, in all truth, in the Undying lands. As were the Vanyar.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and the descendants of the Teleri in Middle Earth weren't even "wild"

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . yes, almost entirely, the teleri, that is.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . no, there were not

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . The vanyar never left arda.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so the population of Noldor in Middle Earth was declining, but the Sindar were not

Cinnamon Raymaker: . indeed

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think, what could be logically conjectured is that by the beginning of the 4th Age, very few elves would consider themselves Noldor or Sindar.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . I have always gotten the impression that the Noldor were nearly entirely wiped out, certainly the pure Noldor.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . as blood lines probably mingled over time.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Yes, I'd agree with that.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and yes...as there were the wages of war to be reckoned with.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, several major wars in the Second Age

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . There may have been a few pure Sindars. But even the Sindars mingled with Noldor, am I right in that, Lihan?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, they did

Dominique Darkwatch: Feanor's house seemed to be more apart, though

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . well, the weight of the doom for one thing

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They were the royal line. You would expect them to keep closer track of their bloodlines

Dominique Darkwatch: And I understand not all the sons even got married or had children

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . At the end of the first age, just two of the original oathtakers were alive. the eldest sons

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and they don't survive much longer

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Maedhros threw himself and his silmaril into the bowels of the earth along with himself. Maglor cast his into the sea.

Dominique Darkwatch: right!

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and then what happened to Maglor?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . No one knows.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So maybe he survived after all

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Tolkien left it that he still wanders the shores of the World, singing laments for his despair and regret.

Dominique Darkwatch: But I thought that was one reason the Valar lifted the curse...was because all of Feanor's sons were gone

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . that would make more sense

Dominique Darkwatch: Yes..that's what the card says....all of the sons were dead by the end of the first age

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yeah, but I wrote that

Dominique Darkwatch: oh

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We have to remember, we are talking about a body of literature...not history. Writers do change things over time.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . and not everything can truly be accounted for.

Dominique Darkwatch smiles: But I do think that was a part of the lifting of the curse

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So, Originally, maybe Tolkien intended for all of the oathtakers to die

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . maybe Maglor did die, but offstage

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Perhaps he forsaw a story about the passing of Maglor, or yes, what Lihan said.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Nobody really knows the mind of tolkien entirely, what he had tintended in its entiretyl not even his son, who himself suggests in various places that he wonders if his father was entirely certain of what he intended.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It's more dramatic to end his part of the story with him singing songs of regret

Dominique Darkwatch: And he could have dies of grief, too, and faded away

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . he could have

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . As for Elwing....do I understand what was implied about her in the stories... She choose to be come elven.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . She did due to her heritage

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So she could still be alive in the Undying lands?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Earendil chose to become elven, to stay with her. I thought it did say she was alive in the Undying Lands. She didn't really like Earendil's sky-ship, so she waits for him to visit her sometimes

Cinnamon Raymaker: . or flies out to meet him. Thats where the sea bird comes in

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes :) but she doesn't do the whole sailing-the-sky with him

Cinnamon Raymaker: . lives by the shores of the Sundering Seas in a white tower

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so to answer, Cinnamon's question, she has a lot of room to decide what and who Elwing becomes in all those passing of years.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . haven't checked a map to find out about that as yet

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . There is plenty of seashore, take your pick

Cinnamon Raymaker chuckles

Dominique Darkwatch: Ah yes...Elwing gets to fly!

Cinnamon Raymaker: . I believe a gift from Ulmo, When elwing dove into the sea to save the silmaril from being captured

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Was it a one time gift?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . hm not sure Ael

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . because if it were not... then the large swan who conveyed Olwe to Manwe' seat could have been Elwing.

Dominique Darkwatch: haha

Cinnamon Raymaker: . perhaps but I believe it was a sea bird not a swan ;P

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . For Teleri, swans are seabirds. They conveyed us safely to Alqualonde, after all

Cinnamon Raymaker: . ah

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but if you fly out to meet Earendil other times. Then it wasn't a one-time gift

Cinnamon Raymaker: . indeed

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And if it were not a one time ....welll. my mind sees rp possibilities.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . a shape-changing elf -- that is rare

Cinnamon Raymaker: . may it have also had something to do with the connection through bloodlines perhaps?

Dominique Darkwatch: Yes, I was thinking the same; A flying shape-shifting elf

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . wow....quite a story.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . Sindar Royal House?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I cannot see it as other than a gift of the Valar.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . absolutely.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . Melian

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . I can't imagine an elf having such an ability otherwise.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . But you do fly out to meet Earendil , more than once, don't you?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . In the story it says often, if i recall

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That's how I imagined it

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . so I am confused.

Dominique Darkwatch: Yes...Elwing does fly on what seems to be a fairly regular basis

Cinnamon Raymaker chuckles

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Did Ulmo give her the gift? or did she always have it?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . a point of contention ;P we will never know

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . it is an important distinction to your character, though.

Varanwe Firehawk wonder if that's why tolkien chose to call her elwing.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . hehehe However Elwing means Starspray. Comes from the reflection of the stars in the fountain at my birth home

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . ah.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . A gift from the Valar means that your talent is probably confined to you.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . A "birthright" because of Melian means that others of your line could inherit that trait.

Dominique Darkwatch nods: yes, it seems to be more of a gift

Cinnamon Raymaker: . I have not read a lot about the characters in my background

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Did you ever fly before Ulmo rescued you?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . not that I recall, no

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I cannot find a reference to it before that.

Dominique Darkwatch: And none of her earlier line did either

Cinnamon Raymaker: . not sure if my "sons" had special traits either, need to do more research

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . no evidence that they did

Dominique Darkwatch: It would have come in handy for Luthien

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . she had some "magic", but nothing like that

Dominique Darkwatch: Hers seemed more aong the lines of enchantment

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Cinnamon Raymaker nods

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and she needed a magic bat-skin to change shape, so it wasn't HER, it was the magic bat skin doing the shape changing

Dominique Darkwatch: I would expect Elwing to have some of the magical enchantment abilities

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but abilities do not always translate like that.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and thus may be the other reason Ulmo bestowed his gift upon her.

Dominique Darkwatch: No...but Elwing seemed to have some of Luthien's courage

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes, I agree.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . quite a remarkable woman

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . very remarkable. But I think magical abiltiies would vary from person to person.

Dominique Darkwatch: I think one could argue a pretty strong link between the two. So for characer purposes, Cinnamon could draw from Luthien's character a bit

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think there would be a genetic component, yes, but I think you would have to be careful not to assume each sibling would inherit the same level of magical abiltiies.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . and honestly, I didn't even think magic would come into it so much

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . We have no evidence Elrond inherited any magical abilities. Elros might have lost his when he chose to become human, if he had any

Cinnamon Raymaker: . perhaps the magic of leadership and enchanting people to follow - if one considers these magical traits - looking forward to Aragorn

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I agree with you Cinnamon. I think there is sheer personality to consider

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . personality, yes. Beren and Luthien and Elwing and Earendil all had plenty of personality

Dominique Darkwatch: So I do think they were extraordinarily gifted. Which, in my opinion, translates into some degree of magic in the Tolkien Universe. Dominique Darkwatch smiles: But that's just me

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It is always a little unclear what counts as "magic"

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . true. To many "primitive" peoples, the inventions of modern society are considered magical.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Galdriel insists her mirror is not magic, implying that she thinks of it as technology

Dominique Darkwatch: Umm....like a forked stick is technology when looking for water?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . umm, I don't know, Galadriel didn't explain her comment

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . well, like a fork is technology when you are hungry. You don't even think of it as such because it is part of your daily life

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . are we far enough off topic yet?

Dominique Darkwatch: hehe...I was thinking the same thing

Cinnamon Raymaker: . well it has been enlightening hearing your thoughts

Dominique Darkwatch: I hope it has helped you discover more of Elwing

Cinnamon Raymaker: . haven't had the cha

nce to discuss character since I made out my card

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I hope we see more of Elwing around

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . me, too!

Cinnamon Raymaker: . Well she is living in Vinyamar at the moment. Cinnamon Raymaker giggles

Cinnamon Raymaker: . by herself. If the sim is moved the treehouse could be her tower on the shore. except its a cliff ;P

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . picky picky

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . well, in rp, part of the magic is that we are not restricted by the geography of the continent.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . it will be interesting thinking of new developemtns though - thanks to the ideas we have tossed around

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Varanwe has been quiet, and I know he has Noldor heritage, yes?

Varanwe Firehawk grins

Dominique Darkwatch nods: Yes, another RP character who has a stake here!;-)

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Varanwë, though technically an invented character whose name was adapted from Voronwë, elf of Gondolin, is a great-great-grandson of Gil-galad. He is also half-Sindar. The other half is noldor/vanyar, since he descends through Fingolfin's house. In his case, the vanyarin trait came up dominant. Do you want me to tell the bulk of his tale, Ael?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . or how it relates to the Doom of the Noldor?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . I'll try to nutshell it as best i can.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . please, I don't think everyone knows.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . go ahead

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . hmmmm.....well.....the tale is a bit convoluted, and for reasons of making his story actually work, certain material parts of the underlying background have been completely fabricated. For example..... to begin with, he was born toward the end of the second age. So, a fairly elder elf, though you'd never know it by looking at him.

At that young age, he saw his father dressing for war, since he went into battle alongside his great-grandfather. Both were slain, and as such, Varanwë and his mother were sent to Lothlorien. So, he grows up in the presence of lady Galadriel. Of course, he enters into her service, and gains some favor, enough to be permitted to ask for the hand of one of her cousins. By that time he was also granted control of a smaller territory, and was dubbed baron of that land.

I originally created this character 2 years ago when I began rp in Imrath Tir, but with my primary av. I am Veovis' alt. Veovis nightfire. When i decided I wanted to start rp-ing in Sylvhara, I noticed they often go by av names, so I wanted the character to have a valid elf name. anyway....

Galadriel sends Varanwë to Imrath as a test of his fidelity to her cousin.

AelKennyr Rhiano smiles at his friend

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . No small matter marrying into Galadriel's house. While he is in Imrath, a host of orcs attacks Lothlorien. Again, yes, a complete fabrication, but the story needed some way to make his situation seem plausible as to why he was "left behind," so to speak. So, the folk of Lothlorien manage to escape the orcs and make for Imladris, where they join Elrond's folk and leave for the Grey Havens. off to Valinor.

Meanwhile, Varanwë was released of his obligation to Galadriel's cousin, since it is more or less no longer possible for him to live up to what was planned. he meets a maiden in Imrath from Mirkwood, as it turns out. They decide they want to try to restore Lothlorien, as he had some seeds of the mallorns available. but the orcs had poisoned the ground, and without Galadriel's influence, nothing was going to grow there.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . wait,I'm confused ....

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . He gets separated from this maiden because she decides she wants to go back to Imrath to help stop a drow uprising (more fabrications as far as Tolkien goes, but this was actually rp'd long ago).

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . I expect you would be.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . you shipped out Galadriel at the end of the SecondAge?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . no... Varanwë is only a child by the end of the second age. Varanwe Firehawk whispers: this all happened post-sauron.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . so when is this part of the story happening?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . beginning of the 4th. or dead-end of the 3rd.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ok, go on

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . must be early 4th Age, if Galadriel is gone

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . right. I told you it gets convolouted. It's actually a good story.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I'm lost now And is Varanwe a young elf?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . by elven standaards, i suppose. not by human standards.

Dominique Darkwatch smiles: He is one age old when Galadriel leaves

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . So he loses this maiden, Lin, because she is rather stubborn and has it in her head to go help Imrath. He wanders aimlessly through countless lands, running into all manner of nasties, who he slays with relish., particularly orcs. All of which makes him rather bitter and angry, since he lost so much to them.

He finally finds his way to Sylvhara.The queen welcomes him warmly, as do most others. Little do they know at that point of his lineage. He becomes a failry adept warrior for Queen Comet, and as Galadriel can speak within to him even from Valinor, she advises him on many things. She tells him to give his loyalty to her and follow her commands as if they were her own.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . She can speak to him?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . telepathically. She speaks to him in dreams.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . hmm Is that where her mirror might be useful?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . quite possibly so. So to bring this up to the "present" moment.......

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . the Noldor did study telepathy,so this is possible

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ok

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . He has been knighted by Queen Comet for his service to the throne of Sylvhara.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but something does not quite "Gel" with the character of Galadriel. if I may...

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . go ahead.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . "[20:36] Varanwe Firehawk: . . . she tells him to give his loyalty to her and follow her commands as if they were her own."

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . that was in regards to queen comet.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . ok, but that sounds like Galadriel is "ordering you"

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Which she is. Varanwë was in her service in Lothlorien.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and from what we see of her, in LTR....

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . so she is instructing him to follow comet's orders as though she had issued them.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . but I think that to command from afar...that may be too close to the way that Melkor uses his powerful servants.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . what do you suggest, then?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And she was so so insistent when she refused the ring.... Why do you need her to tell you to serve Comet? and please, it is just a question.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . ah, ok......when he enters Sylvhara, his loyalty is largely to none but his own agenda. That is to find a way to valinor.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It's not that what you said was "wrong."

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . I understand...I just left something out. and that was it. So in a way, she is ordering him, but not at the same time, since she is concerned about his descent into self-servitude.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It sounds like Galadriel took you under her wing, so Varanwe would have a keen mind annd be very wise, I think.

Dominique Darkwatch: Hmmm...I see the point...could it be simply being her advice to so serve Queen Comet as you served Galadriel?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yes

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . She did, esentially, and mostly as he is who he is. right, dom.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . the "descent into self servitude"

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Galadriel tells him of greatness to come for him, but he doesn't quite understand what that means.

Dominique Darkwatch: So just downplay the bit about "orders"

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That sounds very intersting, but I do not understand what you mean by that.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . yes, to prevent him from turning to darkness.

Cinnamon Raymaker: . following his own agenda

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . yes He was very quick with the blade.

Dominique Darkwatch nods: I can vouch for that

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . and that quickness cost him his life at the hands of the drow matron of Aryador. He was resurrected thereafter. And returns with a few extra talents.

Dominique Darkwatch smiles and nods: with a bit of help from some friends

Varanwe Firehawk smiles at dom.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Is there a risk that he would choose a dark parth?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Yes, he could have descended into darkness, Ael. He was that bitter.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, I like the fact that there is that side to Varanwe. :) rpwise

Dominique Darkwatch: I do not think he would have....but would have done dark things

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . "could have"? but might he still have that temptation?

Cinnamon Raymaker: . particularly if ressurected and given new talents?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . nod nod nod

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Well, here's an example.... He single-handedly entered aryador to assassinate a seawitch. Why? Because she had imprisoned his friend, a fae, and his new beloved. And he knew she had attacked Sylvhara alongside the matron. He saw her there. So he had it in for her. And he went off the deep end when he discovered his beloved imprisoned by her.

Dominique Darkwatch nods: This where Varanwe reminds me much of Feanor

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . That's just an example of how violent he could get.The death and resuttrrection tempered him.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That is how violent any elf can get. Slower to anger than humans.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . that's not saying much

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . true, Lihan. And when angered...Well, witness the Noldor.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . So, after he kills this seawitch, his life is in danger again. It seems all of Aryador wanted him dead for that one. So he decides he wants to escape for a while to Sharindlar, where a distant cousin has been discovered, who is almost entirely Noldor. I think Varanwe would be a very interesting and engaging rp character if he is still tempted, or grows slowly tempted again over time.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . When Queen Comet gets wind of this, she advises against it, because Sharindlar is a violent place, and she would rather him be someplace trustworthy

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . tempted to violence?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . to darkness

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . It will be a battle for him, but as he is on the path to paladin, he is now also in the service of the Maia Arien. And he must learn to control his temper in order to progress.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . who?

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . that's just it, the effort of learning to control his temper

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Arien, the Maia maiden who steers the vessel of the sun.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . We have someone playing that?

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . i don't think so.

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . used to be Sazzifras, I don't know nowadays

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . So Queen Comet sends him to Alqualondë.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh yeah. I remember

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . and that brings us up to the present.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . thank you, Varanwe I wonder how Varanwe will feel, meeting Olwe. or Olwe, meeting Varanwe.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . The name of Olwë was ever spoken of in Lothlorien with reverence....and regret.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . it will make for some poignant rp, I think :)

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . yes.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Well, what will we discuss next week?

Dominique Darkwatch: I'm wondering how we can bridge the two worlds for more RP

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . which two worlds?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . fantasy and Tolkien?

Dominique Darkwatch: Well...yes...or Sylvhara and Alqualonde

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . That is what the Dawning of the 4th Age rp is about

Dominique Darkwatch: Ah...I sort of thought so

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It is a brave new world with a terrible darkness arising.

Dominique Darkwatch: Ah...yes..I have been following

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . And this time the gentle Teleri are called to serve the will of the Vala. As soon as we find them

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . People keep asking Nienna to get involved; she might be convinced soon

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . yay

Dominique Darkwatch: Well, it is an interesting story and I was just lookng for some sort of entry point

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Don't expect Nienna to cook. That's what I keep Vanyar for, remember?

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Do they do Windows? Glad I am Teleri.

Varanwe Firehawk: . . . Better yet, do they do Linux? ;)

Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Last I saw, you were in Ingwe's guest room, wrapped in every blanket he owns, sipping hot soup.

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . it was good soup, too

AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Ok...topic for next time? Please, just let me know so I don't make up something on the notices :)