"The Hunt for Gollum" Webmovie

extracts from the Timeline  (Appendix B of Lord of the Rings)
3017

• Gollum is released from Mordor; Aragorn finally tracks him down in the Dead Marshes, and brings him as a captive to King Thranduil's halls in Mirkwood

3018

• The Ringwraiths are given the task of retrieving the One Ring;
• April 11 - Gandalf reaches Hobbiton. He returns to the Shire, telling Frodo Baggins he must take the Ring away
• July 10 - Saruman imprisons Gandalf in Orthanc
• September 18 - Gandalf escapes from Orthanc
• September 23 - Frodo leaves Bag End
• September 30 - Aragorn meets Frodo Baggins in the Inn of the Prancing Pony in Bree.

---

Tolkien Discussion Group

December 16, 2009

Topic: The Hunt for Gollum Webmovie

in Alqualondë

present

AelKennyr Rhiano

Dominique Darkwatch

Lihan Taifun

Aredhel Glendale

Please, everyone pull up a cushion

Fifi you look so christmasy

Thank you :)) tis the season for th colors :)

I have Chirstmassy ball gowns ... but not quite what we need tongiht

I want to wear all my beautiful Christnas ball gowns :D

Well, it is not too late

We need a dress-up day?

nod nod nod

Dress-up day too lol

Maybe Fi will play Santa again for us

I didn't get to sit in her lap

Neither did I

Music Videos DSL Records Videobox: Hunt for Gollum 39min

Want me to find the url for you, my lady...you could watch on youtube?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H09xnhlCQU

We will wait until everyone has finished watching it before we discuss it :)

What did you guys think of the film?

I love the locations

amazing!

I was thinkingthe forests looked like Wales

Very well done

I have seen it before... It is fine. I like it. But I am looking forward to see the another one.

Are they going to do more?

There is another group and they are profesional, did

Oh...cool

Have you heard about them?

Please, tell us more?

I am not sure, but I suppose topic is about Rhovanion, or Gondor village maybe.: It is done in Autumn or maybe will be soon...

wow!

We will have to be on the watch for that.

Because it is much MORE than this one and this one is well done.

wow I thought this one is very impressive

This one was very good

I can make a wiev if I found it somewhere... on net. Because I don't remember name of it, but perhaps will be able to find it...

yes, Aredhel, if you find it please tell us!

I will.

Everyone caught how that notice was run before the movie?

notice?

There was a notice at the beginning about the Tolkien estate

Yes- but i would need to pause and go close to read

I heard they did have an "understanding " with the Tolkien estate, that they wouldn't get in trouble for making the movie, as long as they didn't sell it

What has happened to our Bilbo?? Is he on walk-about?

*our* Bilbo?

There was Bilbo in Arda

I haven't seen him in ages

I heard rumors of unhappy romances -- rumors, so who knows the truth?

aww . . . just seems odd with no hobbits around ^^

I heard the same and had reason to believe the rumors had some truth

Well, there are hobbits

Well, dear companions, I have found it. Shall we do projection another evening? and if possible sooner or later? because my time zone... http://www.bornofhope.com/

Yes, please let's

So - this was depicting the first time gollum was captured?

Occasionally one finds his or her way here, but they are not living in Arda

There are hobbits?

Kath has hobbits

I saw one once in Oiolaire

I thought you have many of them :o) It is very popular race...

They are mostly merchants, I believe

They like cake too, lol

and party's with lots of yummy food

But Kath can't use the name "hobbit", because of copyright issues

aaahhhh - remember some of that coming up in the past

Or maybe they are here somewhere but enjoy almoust peaceful life, opulent diners a village festivals ;o)

Actually, it is totally nonsense to see hobit in Alqualonde, such long way from the Shire? Oh, no, who can be such a fool to go somewhere? ;) if you can just stay where you are...

I don't know about total nonsense, but the hobbit would be an usual one, and probably related to Bilbo

lol

It was always strange to have hobbits in the Undying Lands

You know, breakfast, second breakfast, cake, biscuits, it is qute heavy for wandering...

Maybe he travels from house to house, visiting his friends

That's why bilbo was so different

{The last person finishes watching the video.}

It was really quite good.

So this was still the third age, right?

Yes, this was just before events in Lord of the Rings. Well, obviously, Aragorn was in the story

Yes, Bilbo was "strange" hobbit. Another hobits were thinking he is... you know... little bit :)

because he wasn't content to stay home and garden

Now, the simarils, they factor into the 4th age, right?

To me, it takes place perhaps while Ghandalf is on his way toward Gondor after he is ware of the ring's presence

at theCouncil of Elrond, Aragorn tells about capturing Gollum, and he finds out from the elves that Gollum escaped again

It is in book somewhere. Gandalf did the same as in the film, was watching and made a decision - Gollum's soul is lost, but he will have a place in story.

You remember at the end of this movie, Gandalf says that Frodo needs to leave the Shire

Aye

But I am not sure, If there was something about Aragorn's Hunt. Elves were captured gollum, I think.

So Frodo already has the ring

During this film? I'm not sure I got that?

Yes, that is what Gandalf was saying

Did I miss something? oops, I thought it was Bilbo

At the end, Gandalf is saying Frodo isn't safe

There was a gap... between a celebraton of birthay, when is Bilbo leaving...and giving ring to Frodo.

I read some of the Utube comments that also brought that up

I thought that during the events of the movie the Ring had changed hands

That makes sense

In the book Frodo has a ring in Shire for some time. few months or years...

In the book, it was years between the birthday party and when Frodo leaves

Yes, so this story probably happens in those years

and the shadow is becoming bigger so he have to go to Rivendell...

and now Gandalf is worried, and goes to warn Frodo to leave

and after that Gandalf decides to visit Frodo... and there is scene with a ring and the fire in the film...

yes

That is after he comes back from reading the tale of it...."Keep it secret, keep it safe"

and he read that after the birthday party

Which he suspected after touching it and seeing the eye of flame

Reading that paper, in Gondor, he knew about the writing on the One Ring. Then he wanted to go back and test Frodo's ring in the fire, and the writing was there, so Gandalf knew Frodo's rring was the One Ring

oh, I see... and the fire scene is before film or after?

hmmm, close to the same time. We need the timeline in the back of the book

AelKennyr Rhiano gave you The Ages of Tolkien. Does that help?

probably

year 3017 Gollum is captured by Aragorn

Too many English for me to keep conversation. So I left it for another, now.

So exactly Aragorn was captured him... hmmmm :o)

Yes, Aragorn captured him. The elves kept him, after that

That part I do remember

April of year 3018 Gandalf talks to Frodo -- that would be the "fire scene"

So, Aragorn captures Gollum, then Gandalf goes to Gondor and reads the story, then Gandalf goes to Frodo. That all happens in less than a year

How long was it when the barkeep had last seen Gandalf in Bree?

In the book, Frodo does not leave right away. Ffrom the timeline, it looks like probably about 3 months since Gandalf was in Bree

That seems to be when Ghandalf sends Aragorn to find Gollum

According to the timeline, Aragorn was hunting Gollum the year before. 3017 Gollum is released after several years captive in Mordor. He is soon located and captured by Aragorn, who takes him north to the Woodland Realm.

Gandalf travels to Minas Tirith, and there discovers the Scroll of Isildur.

3018 12 April Gandalf returns to the Shire to warn Frodo about the Ring.

23 September Frodo, Sam and Pippin set out from Bag End.

29 September Frodo and his companions arrive at the Prancing Pony in Bree, and meet Strider.

Midyear's Day Gandalf encounters Radagast near Bree, and is given Saruman's message.

Either everyone is asleep, or reading their notecard

Well, we know Jackson and his writers took some liberties with the movies for pacing reasons

Reading nc - but also get confused between movie and book

True, in the movie things have to happen faster

That happens alot in movies

It isn't scary in the movie if the hobbits get to the ferry an hour before the BlackRiders

I thought "Hunt for Gollum" tried to follow the movie more closely

I thought it tried to bridge the two, the book and the movie

and I think they did a good job

Here, Strider sees and fights a black rider

I thought they did a good job of matching both the book and the movie

Tolkien didn't tell very much detail about Aragorn and his hunt, so they could put what they liked into this movie

but they blended it in well

and the style looked like the style of the movie

The fight with the black rider doesn't quite fit, but it is a good scene and well done

And if one had no background and were to see it . . . well done

and we were tired of Viggo Mortenson anyway

no, we weren't

after 15 minutes, I was

But I don't like this Arwen, sorry :O)

That was an awkward scene

They just wanted to do an Arwen scene

hmmm, just like Peter Jackson ...

yes!

"strange accent"and the flower in the hand... do you remember Aniron scene ... :/

Well, if they are trying it into the movie... I guess they felt they had to do one scene

even if it was almost the same scene as the movie

it is...

{Lihan crashes and relogs.}

So you revert to a scene from the movie, and try to tie it in?

What was the question?

There was a question?

No, we were commenting, still, on the scene with Arwen

For example... there could be scene of arwen making back bond (i mean a standarta) a flag...(sorry english) In this time she was making an embroidery of the White tree for Aragorn.

true, she is

Not very sexy, tho

What about making flag in her very-special-silk-night-gown?

The beards on the humans left a little to be desired, but other wise, the make up was good

She had a fine coach... i like it.

They did the fighting well, too

yes, they did

Oh yes, it is not easy making fight scenes they do not look funny...The locations were awesome, very well chosen

magical

related well to the LOTR movies

except Arwen at Rivendell. That looked like a botanical garden

The movie has never matched my vision :)

oh? not at all?

How could a movie?

Fifi Wickentower: nods . . . how could it :))

And I am miserable because my visions are situated to the Silmarillion rather, and I have no film ;( no film to be angry it is bad ;)

Maybe you should make a film

I am trying :D a small one ;o)

Are there any in the making?

hmmmm..... not at all...

I just finished listening to the Christoper Lee reading of "Children of Hurin"

I like this story... almoust my the most favourite.

He does such an awesome job it is almost like a movie

Chrisopher Lee has an awesome voice

Some of the radio performances are very good

Is it for sale or free, this record?

For sale

It's not cheap, but well worth it I think

I saw the book but din't know about record yet. Thanks...

You get to hear how all the names are pronounced

Oh yes, pronounciation....

That is hardest , for me - remembering names, pronoucing etc

We have got a record of Lost Tales in my language, quite old one. And it is such a fun to follow this actress trying read names :D

Yes, so many names and places!

oh dear

and so many vowels lol

No metter how long I am interrested in Tolkien I am stil making stupid mistakes. Such yesterday. I wished "Vaire's stars take care upon you" :D (It is another Valier... not Varda)

I can't remember all the Valar!

I think it could mean "die soon" because she is queen of the death in Mandos ;)

Vaire is?

oops

Vaire is Mandos wife

She is a giver of hope amidst sorrows

my sister-in-law, I can remember that one

but she does not measure out the length of our lives, does she?

She records the story of the lives

Your sister-in-law? help me, who are you?

Nienna

Giver of hope? Isn't that Nienna? Vaire is making tapisteries...

She records history as well, right?

Aye, you are right

But don't ask me who is Tulkas' wife

Nessa

and Vana is married to ...?

Orome?

could be... think so.

Dominique Darkwatch looks at her cheat sheet. yes!

I'm not half way through Samarillion, so am still working on all this

It is a heavy book

By the time you get to the end, you will have forgotten who was in the beginning

I have read several times and still . . . . .

Yes, but I think important if you are trying to RP an elf!

I agree

It is a whole library

Yes, it is several stories

sure :) and repetition helps lol

And there is also problem of different versions, how J.R.R.T. was changing his opinion...total mess, when you would like to know, what you character EXACTLY did...

That gets very confusing in places

*happy to be Ainur

Nienna has about 2 lines, which is 2 lines more than FIfi's character

the ocean wind speaks in other ways ^^

Well, in the Silmarillion Olwe has just one daughter...in later works, he has a ton of sons

hmmmm

That happens, sometimes ;o) later work hrdy ;)

The sons were the result of later work? just when Olwe was glad to be rid of his wife

well...um....she was glad to be rid of me, too

And what about some freudian problem... I have many of them! :O)

Elves don't mind going their separae ways for a few centuries

I always felt uncomfortable with the push to take a character and instantly find another to take the rp of the mate. It felt like an arranged marriage.

Very much like an arranged marriage

It could be very uncomfortable... for both.

Fifi Wickentower: *really happy to be a wind

or..very like a dream when the right ones find themselves. I mean... usually you have a special bound with your character. Reason why you want to play it. If the second partners do the same... How we call it? Mate an archetyp? :o)

But sometimes the other person has a very different idea about how to play the character. That can be awkward

...yes, that is the risk. very often.

But that is what makes it a living thing; not so scripted

If the players can handle it well. If they don't fight about it

Does that happen often?

That people fight?

about their rp, in a couple situation, if 'forced' into a a coupleness

I think often it might become more about egos

yes, I agree

In a live RP it is quite often, I thing. Not fighting, but still very different... so noone can enjoy so much.

Aredhel, who do you rp in Arda?

Guess *big smile*

Bilbo Baggins?

Hey, she is only 1 week old!

But it doesn't mean anythig or did? :O)

You mean such enchanted meeting with Manwe Sulimo himself as I did yesterday?

May I ask if you are wanting to rp in Arda?

Dominique Darkwatch feels a bit small among all the Ainur

I'm just an elf

and royalty

and I AM an elf :D

See, how can I talk to anyone if I intimidate them all? Lihan Taifun pouts

oh, no, no, Lady...

See? now he is all "Lady" O.o

(you know I could back him into a corner, where EVERYTHING he said would be wrong) (but that would be mean of me)

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes and pouts, now

(I take lessons from a teenager)

Fifi Wickentower: *there there pats them both :)

Lihan Taifun: but teasing Ael is so much fun

Does a wind ainu get seagulls in her hair?

Mostly their feathers get blown about. Only if we get dense will stuff stick ^^

We said we would not meet again until after the new year. Is that still ok with everyone?

Al last my best conversation (except Manwe, of course) in SL until now!

I hope you join us again, Aredhel.

You, too, Dominque.

The Fourth Age

Tolkien Discussion Group

December 9, 2009

Topic: The Fourth Age

or "What Happens after Lord of the RIngs?"

present:

Kratholis Vanistok

Fifi Wickentower

BelenosStormchaser Magic

Lihan Taifun

TedTheRushBandFan Hammerer

AelKennyr Rhiano

wow, so many new people

I'm not in the way of anyone am I?

How nice to have two Ancients with us

You are fine, Kratholis

Although I think you just had Ael land in your stomach, Krath

Save the trouble of eating him?

hehe, would have been the first meal I've had in centuries

I must say you are looking lovely tonight Fifi.. wearing one of my favourite colours

why thank you :)

gold? heheee

not at all.. the purple. Gold is not a colour to dragons.. it's a bedding material.. :)

We were going to discuss the Fourth Age ... what happens after Lord of the Rings. Soooo, did any one look up anything? What did you find?

Everyone leaves teh theatre and goes home.. :D No.. seriously. I have a link from the Encyclopedia of Arda http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/chronicle.html?startyear=1500&startage=2&endyear=4000&endage=3

Apparently there was a short time of peace

You have to get up early to out-research Fifi!

*blushes (really not a know-it-all)

According to a prophecy of Mandos following Melkor's final return and defeat in the Dagor Dagorath (Battle of Battles), the world will be changed and the Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar. Then Fëanor will be released from the Halls of Mandos and give Yavanna the Silmarils and she will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees, the Pelóri Mountains will be flattened and the light of the Two Trees will fill the world in eternal bliss.

oh - and a beautiful safe place to live very useful nod nod

Where is that prophecy recorded?

That's at the end of the fourth age, isn't it?

yes, it is

I've never heard that history ever rolled over to a 5th Age, so it must be

Isn't the 5th age our current time?

unless we are still in the 4th Age

no

We are in the 7th age (or maybe end of 6th)

Well, our role play is set in the beginning of the fourth age

7th age?????

How did we get to 7th age?

According to certain educated speculation ^^

I never though it went that far

The ages continued even tho the prof didn't write it all down

and to answer Lihan, that prophecy was originally recorded at the end of the Silmarillion by Tolkien

not the published version?

I thought it was?

no.. The published version had a different ending

The published Silmarillion ends instead with the recounting of the voyage of Eärendil the Mariner, but this is due to an editorial decision by Christopher Tolkien.

So while Tolkien himself intended the prophecy to be in it, his son edited it out

That happened a lot

Here is something -

Tolkien said that he thought the distance between the end of the Third Age and the 20th century A.D. was about 6000 years, and that in 1958 it should have been around the end of the Fifth Age if the Fourth and Fifth Ages were about the same length as the Second and Third Ages. He said, however, in a letter written in 1958 that he believed the Ages had quickened and that it was about the end of the Sixth Age/beginning of the Seventh.[source?]

oh interesting!

Oh, so you are talking about what age of Tolkien we are in, in Real Life years...not as regards our current role play setting

yes - in response to the earlier comment

My apologies.. I get lost when people jump from speaking in Second Life to Real Life..

Ainur are out of time, so to speak lol

jeese... that would make Kratholis one old dragon...

ancient for sure

So - fourth age . . .how do you see it for rp? the shadow? the new cult of darkness?

Does it create a problem that, 6000 years later and the prophecy of Mandos hasn't happened?

yes

I sort of thought it would be a bit of an gradually more pervasive darkness sort of thing.. the effects of it growing as it gets closer to the last battle

So the theme is always the seed of darkness

May I ask....? What events are recorded as happening during the 4th Age that would pertain to us?

“Us” being whom, Ael?

I don't mean the little things...like who marries whom... Ainur, elves, dragons....

Is there any more recorded of the 4th age, besides that timeline finishing up the lives of the major characters?

I have a timeline for the 4th age - would that be of interest?

That's just it, actually.. and why i suggested the fourth age for our role play. There IS no major recordings of events for anyone but hobbits

It is said that the remaining Noldor all went back to the West, and that the sons of Elrond, and Celborn stayed in Rivendell for some while longer

more freedom?

so the rest of us can pretty much do as our imagination takes us

I thought the Silmarils make another appearance?

no.. only after the Dagor Dagorath

Well that link I posted earlier has the known information in it

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_Age

It doesn't say anything there about the Silmarils does it? .. *tests out her speed reading*

no....I just wanted to ask about the Silmarils

I did read something about the Silmarils - returned to Yavanna at the end of the age?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath

because I thought I remembered reading somewhere that they re-emerged and – yes, Fifi beat me to it

Yes.. at the end of the age I believe

or 'at the end of all ages"?

No sense from tolkien that there was such a thing

Well technically from what I've read the Dagor Dagorath IS the end of all ages. As Tolkien's works were conceived as a fictional "forgotten history" of the world, the Dagor Dagorath represents the coming End of the World, and is often referred to as simply "The End".

or a radical change, bigger than the "ages"

good point

course I'm immortal - an age is just another measurement by mortals

We turn a page on our calendars every age?

The dance through each age is basically the same

After the Dagor Dagorath, we get a new calendar entirely

I don't think Tolkien expected it all to be an 'end'.. it's just that a writer has only so much time to write so much of a story in their lifetime

The seeds of destruction grow until the 'end' and then starts a new age/chapter

Ragnarök, in Viking mythology?

I'm not familiar with it

Things get worse and worse until the great war between the gods and the demons, and then, the world starts over again, from the ashes

but all the mortal races get involved

What i notice is there is never more than a token time of peace . . always the 'shadow comes'

We were discussing the dagor dagorath

or, there is nothing to write about in the times of peace

Well yes.. a story must have action.. *chuckles*.. people get bored of reading about how happy and joyous everyone is .. *grins*

yeah

or he never got the chance to go back and write about the 4th Age.

exactly.. he left it open, at a happy stage for now.. but could have extended it further.. but as I said, a writer has limits... it's called time, age and death.. *chuckles*

He hardly had time to finish the first and second ages

absolutely

So the 4th Age begins after the Defeat of Sauron.

and is dominated by humans

and hobbits.. :D

*thunks self on head "forgot" this isn't real

although I guess the Sindar are still in Middle Earth

Perhaps

in Middle Earth but less active in world affairs? what do you thing, Ted? It is hard to imagine the Sindar deciding to leave

Why?

leave and go where? It is the only home they have ever known. Elwe visited the West, once, long ago. No one else has even been there

Who is their king in the 4th Age?

Anyone have their family trees handy?

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeline#The_Fourth_Age this?? it's over a 3021 year span

Ok, I have been looking that up Looks like the answer was "Elrond". So, Elrond's two sons stayed in Rivendell for a while into the 4th age, and then sailed. No record of who succeeded them. At least Elrond and his sons are the last surviving descendents of Elwe

This is what I found on the Sindar

In the third age of the Captivity of Melkor (that is, the last age of the Years of the Trees), evil things that had dwelt east of the Blue Mountains began to trouble the Sindar. At this time, they first considered the need for weapons and armour, which they had not needed before. They traded with the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, and learned smithcraft from them. Thus armed, they drove the invading wolves and Orcs and other foul things from their land and had peace again, for a time.

So I tend to agree with you, Lihan, that they would probably stay.

Although ... we know that many of the elves from Rivendell DID go west. So, what does that prove Then, the elves of Mirkwood stayed

Given the Sindar nature..would they have abandoned their home?

I agree, it is hard to imagine them leaving

But who would be leading them in the 4th Age?

Maybe they were broken into smaller tribes, like the kingdom of Mirkwood? Obviously Legolas didn't inherit, but he might have had siblings or cousins.

right. Or splintered like the Teleri originally did

Yes, there might be many more small groups

That would explain all the elven clans we have in Arda.

Fifi Wickentower nods

And with the rise of mankind and all these splinter groups, it would explain the half elves

And spent less time with the humans, so perhaps spent more time with the "wild" elves -- the drow, and the others who never went to Aman, and never entered the histories, and faded from human view

Yes, I was wondering how the drow may be explained?

and night elves are different, too?

We know from canon that some elves refused the call to go to Aman, and remained in Middle Earth, and presumably were "uncivilized"

why uncivilized?

What if the drow are elves subverted by Tall, Dark, and Evil?

Well, the totally subverted became orcs, didn't they?

That's what i thought they were

but Orcs, by the 4th age would be their own race.

But quite possibly some never came under the influence of either camp, not Morgoth, and not the Valar either

The drow would be newly "recruited” elves

But never thought about drow and orcs as a progression, if both are subverted elves

I certainly wouldn't say that to the drow! I might consider them more susceptible to evil influence

But Belenos asked a good question.

no no.. I meant orcs In the fourth age..

Are they a race, you mean?

Well, weren't they Sauron's minions? So when the ring was destroyed, did they surrender and become good? Were they imprisoned? What happened to them?

I thought they went to ground.

Got loose, and became petty thugs on their own?

That's a lot of thugs to let run loose

I mean, weren't they in pitched battle at the time the One Ring was destroyed?

Orcs and Trolls fled to the far east, and never really recovered. Either during Eldarion's rule or near the end of Aragorn's, there was some talk of "Orc-cults" although these seem to have been founded and run by humans

Would the armies of the good side have just let them run off?

The armies of the good side were kinda outnumbered. As I remember, they were relieved to see the orcs run off.

Well, I am sure that not every single Orc was at the battle?

Did they just start dying off - any orc babies?BelenosStormchaser Magic: yeah, I don't seem to recall female orcs

We never really heard where they kept the female orcs. Although, could you tell, in a battle?

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Without the negative food from Mordor - they would perish

Would they?

We can hope a lot of them ate each other

or would they adapt?

It seems there is a danger that some orcs survived and adapted

It would seem reasonable that enough would survive.

shakes head . . . . Going to ground seems the most likely

Perhaps the Orcs that survive without the food would not as strong?

I think there were a couple people at Bree who Our Heros suspected of being orc/human crosses, which probably isn't biologically likely ...but, who knows for sure

They gained strength from the violence they lived

orc/human crosses??.. ewww.. who would mate with an orc?

yeah, that too

on purpose, anyway

People with poor eyesight?

But haven't you ever met anyone for whom it might explain a few things?

non-consensual?

presumably non-consensual, and Tolkien was too polite to say so

um hm

Think about it... if they fled the battle...they may have needed females to breed with to continue the race, ergo the human/orc crosses

shakes pictures out of head

We don't know all the orc warriors are male, but the point still holds.

Well, I thought I would not go and paint the complete picture.

Even a very few crosses would let the orc-ish strain get into human genetics

Ok.. so there may have been some orcs.. which would help have a little evil in the world

Yes, need some bad guys

Well, the dragons could always get hungry from time to time :D

And likewise, other baddies from Mordor might have survived

and new ones arise

like the drow

Yes, the old evil influence is still at large, even without a body

The dark gods of the drow could be the evil influence in another guise

That sounds exactly like what Morgoth would do, and Sauron

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

and Saruman, if he could get a slice of the pie for himself

I think it's Olwe.. what if Olwe became schizophrenic... good during the day and evil at night.. :D

Hey!

Wait, isn't that Olwe v Elwe?

Dr Jeckle and King Olwe.. :D

Lihan Taifun ducks

Grrrrr

BelenosStormchaser Magic coughs and clears throat.. ok.. I'll behave now

Ted is going to kick himself for sleeping through this discussion

What about the Valar during the 4th Age?

They all went to Phoenix to live on their old age pensions.. :D

hahahahaha

With all that sun?

or was it pun lol

Phoenix?

Isn't that where all the oldies go to live because it's cheap?

A clean double entendre?

Mighty Manwe's retirement home?

Their version of retiring to Florida

and omg, I've only just realied Phoenix = Manwe. I was referring to phoenix AZ

Fifi Wickentower: *smacks Bel

Earth calling Belanos ... You miss your own joke

Hey, it's early morning for me.. only had two coffees so far

Makes it funnier

I thought it was funny enough the thought of Vala playing bingo in Phoenix AZ actually.. :D

shuffleboard

riding little scooters

Don't laugh lol I love Scottsdale

Yeah, that's it.. going on cruises and sipping margharitas

Hanging out by the pool with the mist

Wearing tacky hawaiian shirts

So if the Sindar and Teleri elves are not in the picture during the 4th age, that leaves the Teleri.

BelenosStormchaser Magic grins and focuses again

Where does it leave them?

busy?

hahahah *smacks ael

running cruise ships

ouch!

Sail the Swansea Cruiseline

AelKennyr Rhiano hums the love boat theme

BelenosStormchaser Magic grins. They can be the masseurs and bellhops for the valar

I have pictured it being up to the Teleri to unite the various elven clans

The Teleri are back home in Alqualonde, being very bored?

Yeah, and we all know what happens when elves get bored.. especially with swans around...

Nuuuuuuuuuu That is dragons

Hey we eat them.. didn't say you'd be eating them.. *grins*

Perhaps the Teleri become known for the finest swansdown pillows and duvets

This conversation needs a reset button

reset on

LOL.. well done Fifi.. :d

So, the Teleri are bored

So, Ted, who is leading the Sindar in the 4th Age?

hmmm.. The Sindar dispersed in the second :~(

dispersed...to where?

"dispersed" as in fractured into small tribes?

or absorbed?

yes... haha

absorbed into who?

hmm.. good question.

into whatever culture they dispersed to - diluted enough to lose their sense of Sindarness?

but I thought they WERE the dominant culture

marriage, a few stop here, a few there etc

I don't remember actually. and as I was reading the Sil again... I sort of loose interest after Thingol is slain :~(

yes - dominant but if they dispersed - I'm thinking that means to all corners of the world

Like leaves to the wind, so is the fate of the Sindar.. :D

indeed. :~)

That is where I was getting "splintered"

and then it becomes lore and tales told to their children's children

By the end of the 3rd age, we have Elrond in Rivendell, and Thranduil in Mirkwood, and Cirdan at the Havens. Lorien is Sindar, with Galadriel and Celeborn as their leaders. Galadriel and Celeborn are foreigners, but the rest of them are Sindar. Possibly other groups, that don't enter the story

I guess i think of “splintered” as still maintaining the tribe and “dispersed” as not

(and, as sindar, they would have dark hair)

ahhh

Dark hair doesn't look as good on film

Julia Roberts? Oprah?

Tell it to Peter Jackson

yep - i hear you lol

Have we worn out this topic? next week ...?

looks around

I think we could continue this one

oh. hmm.. I'm interested in the langauges. What would Thingol use most: Cirth or Tengwar?

Well, in honesty I can't really say as I doubt I will be here. Will have houseguests by then and may be actually out and about in the real world doing normal stuffs.. hehe

ooohhh - that's right . . they are coming :))

ah, life finally catches up to Belanos and Fox!!!

This topic is fine with me

Well, may we continue with this next week?

But Iwould always like to learn more of the elves

Next week it Dec 16, we still have time for a discussion next week, Were you thinking of anything specific about elves?

Not in particular - Ted expressed interest in which language the Sindar might use.

Are we going to meet the 23rd?

23rd might be pushing it

I found a 39 minute movie called "Hunt for Gollum". I thought that we might have a Tolkien Discussion Movie night?

yay!!!!

Oh, yes, I've never actually sat down and seen that!!!

Want to do that next week?

Great idea, Ael

How do homestead sims manage with things like movies? Do you want to have it at Fui on Arador? (full sim)

Ael has a perfect movie room

It's really easy

I think "homestead" only reduces prims, not anything else

{discussion of the technical aspects of setting up the movie player}

How about just doing it in Alqualonde.

With announcements so everyone knows we are on a field trip

Merfolk

Tolkien Discussion Group

December 2, 2009

Topic: Merfolk

present:

Fifi Wickentower

AelKennyr Rhiano

Lihan Taifun

Ossy Portocarrero

BelenosStormchaser Magic

Wow, look at you two

It's mer day lol

I hope merfolk are immune to the cold

We will have to ask a mer about that

Ainu are

You know, I don't have a merman's outfit

awwww

Everyone is a mermaid... I'm the mermaid king, why am I in pants?

Why are you in pants?

And you aren't, Ulmo is

There are advantages to being cold-blooded, in this weather

Fifi, did you find any research on mer people?

There was almost nothing

"almost nothing" or exactly nothing?

I found a brief reference to a mermaid island, but no details and not in the regular books

oooh, tell us!

Fifi Wickentower: rummages through notes *:D

Well, a brief reference is enough to prove they do exist in Tolkien's universe!

We could move down to the lake

Come on warm blooded one ^^

Hey, are you two coming over to the water?

They probably fell asleep. We know Fifi is looking for the reference, probably lost in her inventory

Careful on that boat. It's so tempting, because no one ever rides that boat ... although he does have sense enough to sit in the center; t won't tip over immediately ...

heh heh heh I are smrt

Centuries on ships, he does learn something

Referring to Earendel and Idril: There had been a time of loss and wandering and the conchs were calling to Ulmo to return. That is when her found the wreckage and told Earendel that he had been saved to go to Kor. There is something called the Books of Lost Tales and that is were the only reference I could find was listed.

Do mer have their own language? I suppose they must seeing as our spoken word relies on the passage of air through our vocal cords

hmmm

yes - tala is hello in mermish

:P

Ossy Portocarrero hooks his arm under Aels and pulls him up so he can breathe. Ok dont move ael

heh heh

We lost him

drownedededed?

My brother owns that book

It sounds right that there was only one, obscure, reference

but stil, a mention

Well, if it's mentioned, it counts.. :D

So mer do exist in Tolkien

yes!

They just don't enter into the stories much

And if he had lived another 50 years lol who knows what else he might have included

Ohhhh, wouldn't we love to know!!!

But are they descended from Ainur?

There is no way to tell from the one mention

yes . . would love to know their history in Tolkien terms

Well, if we don't know, we have to make it up. No one can saw we are wrong!

So how did he die? Old age?

He was fairly old

Do you swim, Bel?

erm... my other dragons swim well.. this one is awfully twitchy.. not easy to settle on the water. Juvenile dragons fly like bats on crack, and swim the same

Its cuz theyre young and have a need for speed

or no control?

likely both

or they are young and ON speed

probably that.. :D

oh, just being young is reason enough

Then no wonder they can't wait to grow up.. hehe.. gain some control over what they do

become sedate and dignified

and boring

:P... more like huge and fearsome so they can terrorise those who laughed at how they flew when they were young

Ossy is old and he is not boring...most of the time

Belenos isn't boring

never borning

true ...

nor is she dignified

yeah I am.. I'm a staid old tart who's stuck in her ways.. nods nods nods..

She pees on me. And eats swans at swan haven

BelenosStormchaser Magic snickers. I don't eat them.. I just.... suck on them a little.... taste them.. :d

:(((((((

call it a health check-- checking for lumps

AelKennyr Rhiano chokes back a sob

Well, you'll be happy to know I'm making new chewtoys... gingerbread men and candy canes.. :D So the swans will have a rest for a while

yay

How socially acceptable!

So where did the mer come from? Are they descendants of Ainu?

Or maybe still ainur? I expect the water ainur would take mer forms

Ainu who got frisky with fish?

or fishy ainur who got frisky with humans

... traditionally... sea cows and seals were mistaken for mermaids.

if I hear ANY complaints from those sea turtles, Ossy ....

There are even folk tales in Ireland about seals who would come on land to mate at periodic intervals

so i've heard

That was before Jenny Craig HAHAHAHA

yes.. dugongs

silkies also.

manatees

So... its possible that Sea-maiar would mate with humans, and create... er... half-species?

worked for Melian

although how you could mistake a manatee for a mermaid ...

well its foggy and its far away and you see a fleshy looking tail, and youve been on a boat for months, and youre getting cabin fever

Ossy, have you ever seen a manatee?

and youre tired of harassing the cabin boy for sex. You start making shit up out of desperation

Actually it's interesting that mer, like dragons actually occur across cultures in myths, if I believe correctly?

yes they do :)

LOOK! A FLESHY TAIL!! It must be ATTACHED TO A WOMANS TORSO! (gods I hope its a womans torso.. I havent seen titties in MONTHS) etc etc

after so long at sea even a seacow looks good after a while huh Ossy

AelKennyr Rhiano blushes

Too much rum ration all round. :D

This reminds me of a song

uh oh

If I hear even a whisper that those manatees weren't consenting .... I'm warning you ....

I THINK, if any of te sailors had ACTUALLY caught one.. and tried to mate with it the legend would have quickly died, UNLESS

the manatee liked it?

they were desperate and unwilling to share the 'ugly truth' behind their ... excursions.

no but maybe.... saying you laid a mermaid and doing the whole "big fish" story that gets wilder every time....

bet manatees think humans are pretty small

its possible to get the whole 'half human' thing.

bad rum helps

manatees don't see vey well

but doesn't tradition have it that they call you down to the depths and you never return?

well, thats because they swim well. And sailors, drunk and stuff, may not..

So who is telling those stories? O.o?

And a manate can bash you with his big ass head, and you wont wake up from that

So tis easy to speculate at a distance but no one whose ever been there can say for sure as they never come back?

ornery sailors

The Siren's Song - -would distract the sailors and they would go off course

But you know what I mean. Manatees can be dangerous. So if you are stupid enough to dive in to chase one, you could easily die if they attack you. Or.. you might die from shame when you see one

They are actually pretty peaceful creatures, vegetarian

They must have a defense mechanism

I don't think manatees do have a defense mechanism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihEew4v1xyc Please watch this song about mermaids :) Its funny. They talk at the beginning. You can ignore that I guess xD Start at 1:10 or so. They talk about genitals about female and fish xD The song starts at 1:37 or so. And one of them dances. It's just win win

ty Ossy, for audio/visual presentation lol

One comment to make on that song.. typical male... :D

I would be happy with the cabin boy -- woops...that was in public chat...blushes

... pedophila do you good?

Hey.. fox is only a baby.. so I'm in the same boat Ael

I thought Fox was an ainu

only a young'un

Can ainur be "young-uns?"

((in RL, Fox is 26, Lihan, and I am 49, so one could call me quite the cradle snatcher))

Fifi Wickentower: pokes Belenos "you know, it might be nice to warm up the water for Lihan". Dragon smoke - it's puffing out from you :)

{Lihan crashes and relogs.}

His horn might be a problem

Makes good dental floss Fifi

erm, what are we talking about?

Walter is a unicorn seahorse, or rather a sea unicorn

and I mentioned he looked tasty, as I do

Bel thinks he looks tasty

Bel thinks most things look tasty

You edit, correct? ^^

yes :D

I hope so

and I do remove a lot of the off-topic, mostly, kinda, that is 3/4 of the conversation

Tonight it is

Do our discussions get posted somewhere?

Oh yes indeed, Bel!  http://boa.teachout.com/InteractiveCommunity/Forums/tabid/696/forumid/27/scope/threads/Default.aspx

So what do mer folk eat, speaking of things looking tasty.. :D

Don't they eat fish?

Wouldn't that be a bit canabalistic?

What do fish eat?

umm.. plankton

shrimp

seaweed? I know mine do. They always eat the weed in their tank

oysters - shell fish

shrimp ... I could handle that

Seaweed is good nods

Kelp is really good for you

in miso soup .... yum

Fish also eat fish.It depends on the fish though

But you know, I can just see a mer person eating sushi and going 'alas poor cousin yorik, I knew him well'

Do mer folk think it is weird that land people eat cows?

lol You're just into violence

Well, they aren't the same.. fish and mer both have scales

No, but cows and humans are both mamals, and both give milk.

I love sushi

That idea is not at all bad in my mind, except... no rice

Lihan has a very interesting book on the erm . .Mating habits of Merfolk

Fish are smaller than merfolk, much like some wild cats are smaller than lions, and lions eat them. Aand theyre both cats

So if it's ok for dragons to eat cows then it should be ok for us to eat all mammals?.. :D

mmm delicious sushi

burgers yum

But, are mer folk mammals? Do the females have breasts?

In myths yes

Sailors would like to think so

I thought that was the point of the stories, that and the rest of the girl-parts

I think merfolk are cold and warm blooded

Well, if they were mammals it would ok for them to eat fish.. :D

but I dont think sailors really thought it out that far

Smelly, dirty, HAIRY, sailors-- no right-thinking mermaid would be interested

Don't forget the other H word too.. :D hence why they had breasts, in the sailors imaginations at least

no indeed

but - maybe they ate sailors lol

They did seem more interested in drowning the sailors

BelenosStormchaser Magic whispers, 'so would I'

There aren't 'happily ever afters' usually

Except for the disney story, I believe?

or stories now

Well. Disney can mangle abut any story

oh yes, dear sweet Ariel

Wasn't it based on a Hans Christian Anderson tale though

Yes, which was much bloodier

Yeah, and in that one, she doesn't get the prince

Yes she goes back to the sea.

Oh really? I've not read it actually.. There was an animated version, much much older, where she goes back to the sea

Because in order to become human, she would have had to kill the prince's real love, and she couldn't bring herself to do it

Ohhh.. that was a nasty condition to being human

Should we talk about the 4th age next time?

yay

What about it?

I know little of the time of Men. *plans crash course*

Fifi our researcher! As well as primo shape changer

Shapeshifting Maiar

Tolkien Discussion Group

November 25, 2009

Topic: Shapeshifting Maiar

present:

Fifi Wickentower

Twylite Haggwood

Tuatha Shippe

AelKennyr Rhiano

Sideon Galanter

Wow, you are totally invisible today. Very appropriate for a wind Maia :D

who can see the wind . .neither you nor I :))

just so!

Did everyone get the notecard in yesterday's announcement? with some readingmaterial?

yes . . and thank you for putting that together

We have seen in the past that what Tolkien claimed was "typical" behavior wasn't always how his charaters acted

Ael says he will be here as soon as he gets a good logon connection

Tuatha Shippe: I am to be Ilmare, handmaiden to Varda...(this is outworld, btw) I am not finding much about her, which makes me believe that I could ...embellish

You have Ilmare's position?

yes

I didn't know Rajani gave it up, although, she hasn't been around much lately ...

LightWizard is to be Osse, This is in AG

Who is assigning these positions?

Manwe

hmmmm I see a split developing between the RP here and in AG, then

wait...not Osse; Olorin?

I didn't know Manwe had any interest in the RP there, either

Eonwe? I seem to be seriously behind the times

There isnt any RP in AG yet.We need more time to build

So, Maia shapeshifting ... I hear lots of silence in the circle

just listeneing :)

This is my first vist---I wait to see the customs

Ah, we are mostly out of character :D Although when Belanos the dragon queen is here, she is never entirely OOC

I thought I'd come more as myself for a change

Twylite, DID you get a copy of the notecard? I thought it might help us, having some examples of how the Professor actually wrote his shapeshifting characters, not just relying on what he said about how they *ought* to do it

I can't see you, Fifi

:D

Is that on purpose?

I see you

:D She is being her natural "wind" self

That's who you are really?

Who can see the wind . . neither you nor I. You may see the effect but not the actual wind

I don't know where I read it, but the Maiar seem to have had two different kinds of "bodies". Or, at least two; maybe Fifi is in the third form. Apparently, the most common visible form was sort of a body-shaped illusion. And, as with the wizards, they could also take real, fully-functional physical bodies

There is this manifestation too

Yes, also manifestations appropriate to the ainu's nature, ust like Arien, the Guide of the Sun, went with a flame form

yes

I'm sure when you are doing wind-things, you dont' bother with a body.Or when Ilmare is out doing mainenance on the stars

There can be a 'friendly/benign visage

Yes, the bodies seem to be mostly for when the ainur want to communicate with elves and humans

There's a body but not like what Eldar think of as a body; and sure - much easier if you blend in - non threatening

right

also a way to learn the ways of each race

What do you mean, "not like what Eldar think of as a body"? could you explain more?

size wise and 'flesh'; Ilmare would be in her star body or 'galactic gardrner' type body ^^

The one comment "their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself" led me to think that, at least in the beginning, the ainur knew more about what bodies look like than about their inner workings . So, at least at the beginnig, they were sort of approximating physical bodies

coming from the stars is appropriate to me

In the case of the wind or air or water - it takes in the shape of what ever contains or limits it

They probably got better at it, over the eons

Well...keeping the frequency static might have been hard to do...staying in form long enough to really experience the form...too difficult..or even painful

Well, sure, when you are being wind-shaped, you aren't even trying for a "shape"

Danger of crystalizing and becoming 'stuck'

aye..or even 'feeling' the density....

Yes, I'm sure some of the ainur prefered not to take "bodies" at all

yes

Heaviness weighs upon the heart

And those wouldn't have interacted much with the elves, and so didn't get into the stories much

spirit

nod nod nod

Or, at least, their influence on the elves, who were writing the stories, would have been very subtle

The only examples we know of for sure of ainur getting "stuck" were the evil ones. From the examples, it sounds like evil interferes with shapeshifting ability, at least after a while

The evil consumes its own freedom (That was a simple statement, too simple)

Even with a close interaction with elves, ainur would still be beyond complete understanding or comprehention by the elves

Evil has no freedom of spirit..not long lasting

Evil is cut off from the source of its true energy

yes

It sounded to me, in the quotes, like the evil ones were slowly draining their batteries, and not recharging

being in/of that Source ...its eternally giving

they are cut off from the source

yes...we know this is true

We were just on the part about evil ainur being disconnected from their source on energy, and getting stuck in their shapes, or, taking longer and longer to be able to take form ...

evil SL......sounds appropriate to our discussion...

one might say 'fallen angels'

the density/form....hold fast ,my friend

or longer to leave the form?

Do we know of any who tried to leave their form? It makes sense that that would be a similar problem. I don't remember any examples of the situation

hmm But would the elves know about that ?? so nothing mentioned

True, they might not. Almost all we know comes from what the elves recorded, which is very incomplete, when it comes to ainur

lucky for that :) I mean that they did record

your secret are safe?

mine?

I thought at first you were saying it was lucky they didn't know everything

I meant that although limited it is good to have what the elves did report

If Ilmare was Handmaiden to Varda.....wouldn't she be asked to take form for her Queen...like going on missions for her... What is a handmaiden anyway?

"Handmaiden" is a general term for female servant

How would one serve a great one like Varda

Assistant star-keeper?

Maybe lady-in-waiting' companion, friend

And help her button her dresses?

travel dimensions

buttons?

Help her materialize her buttons?

more like eons....buttons, indeed

Fifi Wickentower: *giggles

Maybe someone has to check on all those stars, make sure they aren't overheating

So...wouldn't any form Maiar be a shapeshift?

sure

I suppose it would . I suppose humans and elves call it "shapeshifting" if you use more than one form?

Because they can't

When we see Varda..we see an impression of energy in form, but not really form, not in a solid sense

WE probably percieve her more as energy, and, if she is wearing a form, that is secondary. The elves and the humans, of course, see mostly the form

Might a maiar be needed for more committed forms...to do Varda's bidding for example

You mean, when you are on assignment working the the Children?

right

Sure, then it would make sense for you to spend time in a form, and it would probably be less confusing for the people you were talking to if you stuck to one form

Are you awake there, Ael? is it less confusing if the ainur pick a form and stick with it?

But Ainur is not Maiar, really? My understanding is the Maiar are more...dense?

Ainur is the general category that includes all Valar and Maiar

Oh...im sorry

Think of archangels and angels

I should have said Valar

So I was saying "ainur" to include all of us, since we have more in common with each other than any of us do with the Children

nods You are a result of th Great Song

aye...beautiful music, from the stars

If Ael is asleep, we could switch to speaking in Valarin .... the noise of that would probably wake him up

I'm not asleep. I'm just trying to listen to the conversation

oh, ok

{Lihan crashes and relogs}

Phoenix gave me some material from some books he had, and i read similar online. So brief is her description..its mysterious

Gives you a lot of freedom to interpret her. I like the part about her being a great warrior with lightning as her weapon

She must have been sent as watch over the Teleri

She was a favorite of the Teleri, wasn't she?

Tol Eressea was a temporary land for the Teleri

If you are referring to the Book of the Lost Tales, Ilmare was called Erinti there..

Most moved on to build Aqualonde later...after they leaned to build ships/boats

She was said to be the Lady of Tol Eressea before becoming the daughter of Manwe and Varda.

In whatever sense it means to say an ainu has "parents". Certainly can't mean the same thing it means for the created races

AelKennyr Rhiano nods

Erenti

Yes, that is the name, I believe, that she is known by in the Lost Tales.

Alright....I need the lost tales. then

In the Silmarillion, and please, Lihan, correct me, if I am wrong, Ilmare has the same standing as Eonwe and is one of the chiefs of the Maiar.

Yes indeed

Where were we? Deciding next week's topic?

Ilmare and Eronwe

Ilmare and Eonwe, yes, we were

Tuatha has Ilmare in the AG, and then we got off topic, I think

Next week?

We still have mers on the list

Is that of interest to anyone?

I don't know much about them, but if anyone does, we could talk about it

Would not the Teleri have some knowledge of the ppl of the waters?

Osse would have more....

Would he come?

We know Ulmo, Osse, Unien.....

I think it is not a matter of him not wanting to come but a matter of rl scheduling.

That would be my guess

I would like to offer something for us to consider...perhaps.

please

Well...for some of us who want to develop rp in the 4th Age of Tolkien, we would benefit greatly by reading and discussing that part of the Silmarillion....I don't know if the rest of you are interested.

the 4th age in the Silmarillion?

Sure :) not as familiar so good to learn

Are there not references to that time period, or am I off my medication again?

I may have forgotten mine lol ^^

Is there more than finishing up the lives of the major characters? or, that is the Appendices to LotR

idk... just an idea..

Where would I start?

Maybe we need to research that, see how much info there is; and we need to know when Ossy can come, to discuss the water folk

I live in a mer at times

Our resident shape changer indeed!

lol, It's all air and water, tho. I don't do fire and not earthy

We don't have to...it's ok

So we have two ideas, and both need more information before we decide for sure

So...next week, the mer? unless Ossy can't make it next week. We really need him for that topic

Ok with me if we discuss thr Mer ppl

Shall i come that way ?? or is it unsettling?

not at all. I think it adds to the discussion, Fifi.

I'll talk to Ossy, but maybe Sid will join us next week and help the discussion?

I may be able to join, yes.

I might even; I never get to wear my mermaid av :D

Maybe we should all dress as Mer...Alqualonde has a harbor to swim in

We could have a swimsuit party afterwards. ...Discuss and Dip

We have a lake

Well, then we are set :))

Merfolk dont usually wear swimsuits ...

The fins would be our "swimsuit?"

Can always shift to biped and bikinis

Although . . i do have a mer dance that i think up to 8 can use

I've been talking with Ossy about having a book club sort of group where we discuss the Silmarillion and other Tolkien works...He has a nack for putting the Silmarillion into layman's terms...

boy howdy, he does lololol

*snerk* that is one way to put it

Well, perhaps a more PG version

*covers Angus' ears just thinking about it

I am needed elsewhere; you all can continue as long as you like

thank you for hosting, once again, Lihan

I am impressed with the turnout we get every week

This is a high point for me, thought provoking and fun

and so glad when a new person comes :)

Shapeshifting Maiar -- Reading Material

References:

Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, the took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour Moreover, their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet we may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them, though they be present. But when they desire to clothe themselves, the Valar take uipon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by that choice, evenas with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby. But the shapes wherein the Great Ones array themselves are not at all times like the shapes of the kings and queens of the Children of Ilúvatar; for at times they may clothe themselves in their own thought, make visible in forms of majesty and dread.

...

Then Melkor saw ... that the Valar walked on earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful. ... His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice tha burned in him that form was dark and terrible.

Silmarillion, "Ainulindalë"

[Ulmo] does not love to walk upon the land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green. ... Ulmo's voice is deep as the deeps of the ocean, which only he has seen.

Silmarillion, "Valaquenta"

In the form of a woman, [Yavanna] is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth ...

Silmarillion, "Valaquenta"

In Angband Morgoth forged for himself a great crown of Iron, and he called himself King of the World. In token of this he set the Silmarils in this crown. His hands were burned black by the touch of those hallowed jewels, and black they remained ever after; nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning, and the anger of the pain.

...

Nonetheless his majesty as one of the Valar long remained, though turned to terror.

Silmarillion, "Of the Flight of the Noldor"

[Arien, Maia of the Sun] was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin, and was unhurt by them, being from the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn into his services. To bright were they eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour.

Silmarillion, "Of the Sun and Moon"

Of old there was Sauron the Maia..... He became the most trusted of the servents of the Enemy, and the most perilous, for he could asssume many forms, and for long if he willed he could still appear noble and beautiful, so as to deceive all but the most wary.

Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

[During the fall of Númenor] the world was broken, and the land was swallowed up, and the seas rose over it, and Sauron himself went down into the abyss. But his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind to Middle-Earth, seeking a home.

[After the fall of Númenor, Sauron returned to his old haunts in Mordor, in Middle Earth.] There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor.

Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

But at last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

[Gandalf describes his battle with the Balrog:] " ... I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

"Naked I was sent back -- for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. ... There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. ... And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord [Chief of the Eagles] found me again, and he took me up and bore me away."

The Two Towers, "The White Rider"

According to the timeline in Appendix B, Gandalf was dead for 19 days.

"If you must know more, his name is Beorn. He is very strong, and he is a skin-changer.

"... He changes his skin: sometimes heis a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men ... I cannot say. ... He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.

"At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own. ... As a man he keeps cattle and horses that are nearly as marvelous as himself. ... As a bear he ranges far and wide."

The Hobbit, Chapter 7

We later see Beorn communicating with his animal companions/servants. He apparently changed into bear form after supper, and spent the night patrolling.

"The realm of Sauron is ended!" said Gandalf.

And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and a hush fell.

Return of the King, "The Field of Cormallen"

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great hight like smoke from a fire as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Return of the King, "The Scouring of the Shire"