Tolkien Discussion Group
October 20, 2010
Silmarillion Chapter 12: "Of Men"
Present:
Fifi Wickentower
AelKennyr Rhiano
Shawn Daysleeper
Lihan Taifun
Summary:
It seems to be some form of evolution (or elv-olution), but there was no consensus whether elves were becoming more human and assimilating into humans, or whether elves were becoming more Ainur-ish, and humans were moving into the niche previously occupied by elves.
Humans generally change their environment to suit them, and elves generally work in harmony with the environment, so elves don't appreciate humans as neighbors. As the human population increased, elves either moved to the West (the High Elves) or retreated to remote areas (the wild elves.) Some of the wild elves might have assimilated into human society, if they had no other option.
How would the changes of the Ages affect the Elves in the Undying Lands?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yay!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . hello!! good to see you
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it's so boring without you
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . there isn't much meat in this chapter
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . nibbles on a few words
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but we were wondering why it was "inevitable" that elves would diminish, once humans were on the scene
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I have a theory but nothing to back it up . . just my own opinion
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that's as much as we usually have
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . we usually try to pull out obscure references to shore up opinion . . at least I do
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Fifi said she had a theory!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . aside from natural ELV-olution. I would rather you all say stuff first
Lihan Taifun whacks Fifi again
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I'm impervious . . .anyone want a cookie?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . let's see, last week we mentioned that elves -- in a number of traditions -- are associated with a past "Golden Age"
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Sooo. the ascent of man and the waning of the elves...it that like the cockroaches taking over the world?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . kinda. Fifi Wickentower shudders
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . apparently. Humans have a comparatively high birthrate, and they are naturally impatient
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . as the light withdraws and the world becomes more dense and 'material'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . does that mean trolls will take over from humans?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I don't think so . . something we don't know yet will follow the humans . . . as they breed, and as the needs of life change
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . something even more dense and material than humans?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but is that evolution...or de-evolution?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . Illuvitar knows
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, devolution you would think
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . is there a difference? hehe
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I had a similar theory... that the elves are not waning
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . it's like making copies . . .the master is the crispest
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so humans are less crisp?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . they are blurry
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . well, yes . . . that's why dragons cook them . . to crisp them up and dunk in ketchup
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . it did sound like a dragonish thing to say
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . euuuuu, all that bad cholesterol
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . toothy grin . . . . .I do live around dragons - - must be affecting me
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . yes!!!!
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . so pesky humans
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes -- blurry copies of elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I don't think the elves are waning
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . Ael, is it your thought that the elves are withdrawing rather than dying out?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no. I actually believe in the evolution but in a different direction
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . listens
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well, in that as a possibilty. I think that over times....the elves who live near and around the Ainur become more Ainur like over time. They evolved, grow up....
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I agree. There are few, tho
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that assumes the Ainur are "grown up" -- but go on
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Evolution does not tolerate a gap though, so humans evolve, grow up to fill the void left by the elven evolution. Well, speaking metaphorically
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or perhaps fae are evolving to fill the gaps left by the humans, and humans to fill the gap left by the fae
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . humans are not evolved enough, in their present, state to perceive the world beyond their senses
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . nor would middle earth elves
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . it seems that the fae leaving causes a sharp decline in the heath of the 'natural' world
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . The eldar, I think, would become "of" the world but not "in" it, unless there was a great need to force them to interact directly with other races
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . nods. Just as with the Ainur
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . that part I understand
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . and length of life has something to do with it too . . .we talked about that before.What say you Lihan? Have you a theory?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . only the part about humans breeding faster and being more impatient, and thus crowding out the elves. Iit does seem to me that the elves are "withdrawing" as much as dying off
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . so the elves are not capable of protecting themselves from the hoards of humans?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . like an invasion of Mongols?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . yep
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . not killing off the elves directly, but, crowding them out, making life uncomfortable
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . or an uh oh . . .humans are moving in next door and bulldozing down the forest
Shawn Daysleeper: . I mentioned some time ago that humans modify the environment to benefit themselves, while elves seek harmony in their environment, so humans can occupy a much larger range of environments
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . good point
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes. And also so elves would seldom enjoy having humans for neighbors
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I look at it as a vibrational frequency . . . .each color has a certain rate . . . and as the rate of vibration becomes more dense . . humans arise and elves naturally are further away
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . even when humans were living in the same kingdom as elves -- like under Gilgalad in Lindon, they generally didn't live in the same settlements
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . they don't change their essence to fit in with the new kids . . they would not thrive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . more that the elves allowed some human "reservations"
Fifi Wickentower nod
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or even Rivendell, how many humans lived there full time? none, I think
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Humans would be difficult for elves to understand, I think...especially as human civilization develops
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, it seems like the elves mostly put up with the few humans who could adapt to elven civilization
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . yes
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, the basic perspective on life would be vastly different.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . did any humans ever learn elven "technology"?
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, for example the palantiri were created by elves
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I think a few may have learned the rudiments of sailing from the elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . ok, sailing, maybe some building, but the technologies diverged pretty quickly. I can't imagine humans making palantiri, or rings of power
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes but they used them
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . and those are things humans would covet
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I could see them learning agriculture from the elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . true, metalworking, so the elves probably taught the humans, up to about early iron-age technology
Shawn Daysleeper: . what about leadership? did humans have kings when they first met the elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . http://books.google.com/books?id=B0loOBA3ejIC&pg=PA426&lpg=PA426&dq=waning+of+the+elves+in+Tolkien&source=bl&ots=hgJGbEdeXc&sig=8fMKgDz4dJj42vhgykOnYTD3ZAQ&hl=en&ei=6Ka_TMuvOYeglAfUtozmBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=waning%20of%20the%20elves%20in%20Tolkien&f=false
Shawn Daysleeper: . there were the Faithful humans of Numenore, did they learn things from elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I believe they would
Shawn Daysleeper: . right, then you have the ones that defied the elves and the valar. they seemed to be responsible for the waning of the elves in that country
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . perhaps?
Sorry, I thought these two webpages were interesting...blushes
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes 
Shawn Daysleeper smiles
Shawn Daysleeper smilesFifi Wickentower: . . . . they are!!! chewing on words and cookie
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . that's the first time I have seen it laid out like that . . second link nod nod nod
nod nod nodAelKennyr Rhiano: . . me, too...I was really impressed by that
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, a very good summary
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . perhaps the change in Elvish Fëar and Hröar could play a role in the waning of the elves.
{editor:fëar = "spirits", hröar = "physical bodies"}
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but as nature does not like a vacuum...something had to fill the void created by those elves who chose not to go to the Halls of Mandos. I thought you pretty much had to go, for the most part.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . yes, that was the first I had seen about elves being able to refuse. I wonder what the webpage's source was, for that
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Wow, in the 4th Age rp...if a Vanya elf were to die and refuse to go to the Halls of Mandos, can you imagine the stir that would cause?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . hmmmm!!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . WHY would a Vanya refuse? they are such goody two-shoes I can't imagine them defying the Valar
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Exactly
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . maybe hanging around humans too much
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . To refuse would mean that something either changed that elf, or the race itself.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . very much so. And how would a Vanya ever meet a human?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Elven teenage rebel runs away from home?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . there!!!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . sounds like Galadriel
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . lol . . it does
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Or perhaps, if the race is evolving and changing....their racial characteristics change as well, perhaps they become "curious". With the 4th age rp, for example, perhaps, the unseen hand of a Vala gives them a "push" to develop to change.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . if they are changing and evolving, that implies some change or stress they are responding to
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Thus Elwing appears in Alqualonde. The marring of Arda could have a profound effect on their racial psyche? I think more so than on either the Noldor or the Teleri
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . on the Vanyar's racial psyche?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes? perhaps
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . they seem so distant from Arda
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . maybe not?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I would have thought they were the ones becoming "Ainurish" the fastest
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . good point
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . do you have some Vanyar who want to get into a storyline?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well, ok...how about this...the Ainu explored the world when it was formed and they went in search of elves... if the Vanya are becoming more ainuish, perhap they would become the same way toward humans.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . why the sudden push to make the Vanyar interesting?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I don't think so...was mainly using it for example
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, I see
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . since they were the least active of the three
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . "least active" -- much more polite than "boring"
Shawn Daysleeper: . maybe one could rp a rebel vanya, as you said earlier
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I was just thinking of ways they would "evolve" over time, reasons
Shawn Daysleeper: . I think that would be the only way to make it interesting, or not boring
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . probably
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but would any elves be becoming more "humanlike?"
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I doubt it . . . why would they?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . right. There isn't even a vacuum -- plenty of humans being humanlike
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I just think it is part of the overall natural changes that occur in any age
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I was just wondering why elves would be moving in a human-ish direction, instead of diverging
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I would think the progression would be more toward Ainishness...is that a word? except for the wild elves or those who remain among men. Perhaps that would be the reason for becoming humanlike...assimiliate or die out?
Shawn Daysleeper: . or sail to the west
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or, become Ainur-ish, and fade away from view
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Fading from view, would that be the same as waning? Seen from a human Fifi Wickentower: . . . . either way . . do they eventually lose the elvishness of themselves?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . from the human perspective, probably it would. Why would it be losing their elvishness?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . huh?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . if they become more humanish . . . is at the expense of their elven nature? I don't know . . only asking
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . oh, if they became more human-like
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . living with humans? History shows that when a weaker group lives side by side with a stronger group, there is danger of assimilation. And humans are more numerous....if the elves began to intermarry, adopt human customs and cultures to survive. Their elvishness would not, I fear.
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . nod nod . . .would their ears become rounded? which are the dominant genes?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . if elves did that, then I suppose they could lose their elvishness
Shawn Daysleeper: . I agree
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . but, would elves hang out with humans?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I guess I was using the Vanyar as examples before because if the evolutionary move for elves were toward humanism.....they would be either the most affected by the change or they would simply die out.
Shawn Daysleeper: . not likely, which may explain why they wane. as human numbers grew, they sought to avoid humans.
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . if it were survival?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . wasn't it?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . if your only option is to watch your people die out, which would you choose?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . if they wanted to avoid humans, the easiest way is to sail back to the West. Or are you talking about the wild elves?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . maybe both? this is all so hypothetical
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but I cannot see wildelves choosing extinction
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I can imagine wild elves intermarrying with humans and being assimilated
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . me, too
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . in a previous discussion, we figured the hobbits had done that
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I remember. And those Noldor who went to middle earth. What about the Sindar?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . well, most of the Noldor sailed West
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . the Sindar might have assimilated, I suppose, if they didnt' withdraw deeper into the forests, or underground again
AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Shawn Daysleeper nods
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . so, does that leave any groups of elves unaccounted for?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I am sure it does, but who knows? lol
Shawn Daysleeper: . none that I know
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . those who could, sailed back to the Undying Lands, and those who couldn't, may have assimilated
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or died out
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . or else haunt very remote places, which, um, may be a stage on the way to dying out
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . poor elves 
Shawn Daysleeper: . ya
AelKennyr Rhiano gives the Ainur big puppy dog eyes
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . awwwww
Shawn Daysleeper grins
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . not buying it hehe
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . they don't even get an "elvish historical museum" to commemorate them
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . What is our topic for next time?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . I don't think we have any stored-up extra topics
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . witches, goblins and ghosts, in honor of halloween?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . is that Tolkienish?
Shawn Daysleeper tries to think of any witches or ghosts in middle earth...
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . How about goblins, balrogs, and wraiths?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . I think I'm traveling next week sigh
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . WE missed you!
WE missed you!Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . awwww
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . beams 
Shawn Daysleeper: . yes I missed you Fifi
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . wraiths are a bit like ghosts
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . orc, goblins and wraiths...oh my!
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . Sauron and Saruman are a lot like ghosts these days
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . true
