Humans - and the Waning of the Elves, part 1

Tolkien Discussion Group October 13, 2010 Silmarillion Chapter 12: "Of Men" Present: Shawn Daysleeper Lihan Taifun AelKennyr Rhiano Rajani Milton (briefly) Summary: In what sense do the Elves "wane"? How do you define the "dominant" species? In many mythologies, "elves" are associated with a past "golden age". Perhaps the Elves couldn't bear watching Humans squander the Creator's gifts. Elves would not enjoy the changes Humans made to the environment. Perhaps Elves evolved to become more Ainur-like. {We discuss The Books vs The Movies. Then we discuss Bored of the Rings parody.} AelKennyr Rhiano: . . You know, I wondered something...when human came on the scene...why did the elves HAVE to wane? {Lihan crashes and relogs.} Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . last I remember, Ael was asking whether the elves had to wane? was there an answer? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . We thought you were giving us a great long answer, so we waited, and waited, then you went poof! :P Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . ohhh, I was actually crashing. I said "good question" AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh,darn, I was hoping for a good answer heh heh Shawn Daysleeper: . ✦✧HaHaHa✦✧ Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . it isn't obvious why humans would supplant elves AelKennyr Rhiano: . . no, not really Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . although it was pretty clear that, in the 20th century, when JRRT was writing, elves weren't the dominant species AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well not from a human perspective, and it depends upon the definition of dominant as to whether humans really are ... Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . any other candidates? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . does it come from the ability to display intelligence? the ability to destroy the world? the ability to affect the balance of nature. There are other species that are more numerous, for example Shawn Daysleeper: . ya there are far more insects than humans AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and humans are not the only intelligent life that communicates. The earth is mostly water and we have yet to discover what lies deep beneath the ocean Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . all true. How does that affect elves vs humans? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . So humans are the only dominant species that Humans are aware of? I just was wondering why, in so many mythologies, there is this recurrent theme of the elves waning as the human waxes Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . the elves "waned" in political influence? AelKennyr Rhiano nods. Or in visibility. Once human appear, the elves seem to decline in some manne Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . in mythologies, the elves seem to be remnants of some earlier group. Tthe elves belong to some previous "golden age" AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes..very much like the passing of a golden age Shawn Daysleeper: . is it because humans are more adaptable? and also manipulate their environment to survive? elves prefer not to tamper with nature so their habitat is more restrictive Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . that does seem to be part of it -- "loss of elf habitat" -- "they paved paradise and put up a parking lot" Shawn Daysleeper: . yup AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Well, I noted in the Silmarillion that it is remarked that the elves grew in wisdom over the pasing of their long lives...perhaps seeing the way humans squander the gifts of Illuvatar, the natural resources is too much for them to bear Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . that must hurt them Shawn Daysleeper nods AelKennyr Rhiano: . . or...perhaps....elves "evolve"....become more like the ainur....concerned for the world but yet removed from it Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . it did say the elves had more human-like bodies in the beginning, and then the fire of their spirits did something to them AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes. There seemed to be a distinction made between the elves who went to th West and the ones who stayed in middle earth Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . I suppose Fifi would say the elves got more ethereal AelKennyr Rhiano: . . If Elu grew more like a Maia in appearance and strength and ability from his relationship with Melian...then what would living in the Shining Lands do to the elves there? Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . it did seem to affect them Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . the word "flame eyed" was sometimes used to describe elves who had lived in the West AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I wondered about that term, what it meant Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . I've been reading dictionaries AelKennyr Rhiano nods. In the rp, We Teleri look different than other elves in other rps...you ever notice that, Shawn? Shawn Daysleeper: . yes, we look different than most elves in other rp Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . the Teleri are pale and light haired? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . taller, usually Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . Tolkien elves are always tall AelKennyr Rhiano: . . less delicate Shawn Daysleeper: . we're also more beautiful. Shawn Daysleeper grins AelKennyr Rhiano blushes Shawn Daysleeper: . joking AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . no, we won't discuss Peter Jackson elves ... {We discuss which actors in The Movies were hot.} AelKennyr Rhiano: . . Did you like th movies, Lihan? Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . I'm too much of a purist AelKennyr Rhiano: . . you are? Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . the first movie was ok AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but you rp the 4th age? Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . then the plot started to diverge from the books, and people who liked a book seldom like the movie made from it AelKennyr Rhiano: . . that is classic Hollywood for you Shawn Daysleeper: . I liked them at first, but I remember first seeing the Faramir scene and I was like ... omg! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . all things considered, I like the movies Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . I liked the way they played Faramir. It's controversial, but I liked it AelKennyr Rhiano nods thoughtfully.. I had to really watch it again and think about it Shawn Daysleeper: . ya Faramir was ok, but when he sent frodo/sam to osgiliath, was kinda odd Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . having Frodo meet the Nazgul in the middle of the scene shoots a huge hole in the plot, though AelKennyr Rhiano: . . true, very true Shawn Daysleeper: . ya Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . yeah, so going to Osgiliath, on the whole, doesn't work so well, but the interpretation of Faramir's personality was good Shawn Daysleeper: . I thought it weakened Sauron a lot AelKennyr Rhiano: . . But the whole idea of translating LOTR into a commercial movie...that is very daunting. Because the bottom line is appealing to the lowest common denominator Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . very true. And then having to condense it to 9 hours AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, that too. I don't think we would watch 120 hours of LOTR, and it would take a series to really tell the story Shawn Daysleeper: . ya all in all it was good film Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . an awful lot of least common denominator Shawn Daysleeper: . yup. But I think the movies did spark a lot of interest in the books Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . I wonder how many of them ended up liking the books? The beginning of Fellowship of the Ring is waaaaaay to slow Shawn Daysleeper: . I have met people that liked the books better, after seeing the films AelKennyr Rhiano: . . A lot of my students liked the graphic novels, but not the books Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . really? Shawn Daysleeper: . ya AelKennyr Rhiano: . . did they say why? Shawn Daysleeper: . characterization, mainly. The characters are better described I the books, their actions reasoning, etc. But some people only like books if the characters are believable and well developed. Tolkien does a good job at this Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . interesting, since I thought the movies tried to add some personality to the characters. I thought the books were a little lacking in some of the characters Shawn Daysleeper: . but then I meet some who don't like all the descriptions, like Tolkien taking a few pages to describe a tree. So I have met both Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . I can relate to that Shawn Daysleeper: . ya AelKennyr Rhiano nods Shawn Daysleeper: . I agree the beginning is way too slow in the books. I tell people to get past the first 50 pages, then it will be worth it AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lol Shawn Daysleeper grins AelKennyr Rhiano: . . but that is not uncommon for books of that era to take a little long to get going Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . there is another slow stretch between Weathertop and the Fords Shawn Daysleeper: . yup, and again in Rivendell AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh yeah, forgot about that Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . a good editor could fix that. So I don't object to screenwriters skipping over the boring parts Shawn Daysleeper nods AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes, but imagine being Tolkien's editor and suggesting that...yikes Shawn Daysleeper laughs Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . no one would dare suggest any changes now. Can't mess with Sacred Texts :P Shawn Daysleeper nods AelKennyr Rhiano: . . absolutely. But you know those parodies that are popular now... like Little Vampire Women... Abraham Lincoln, Vampire slayer....imagine them doing one of the Hobbitt Shawn Daysleeper: . are they? for the Hobbit? Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . I've read the Harvard Lampoon of it AelKennyr Rhiano: . . I wouldn't be surprised.. but I doubt Chris would let them. oh, I did too....Bored of the Rings. I didn't get all the cultural references thought Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . cultural references? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . well it was written in the 1960s I think Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . Tom Benzadrine. tsk, you're too young AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh I gues I was... I remember it followed the outline of the Lord of the Rings... Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . naturally AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oooh I do know a piece of trivia about the parody..though... the first Signet cover edition....was drawn by Michael Frith, one of the designers for the Muppets Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . was that the cover that was a parody of the old LotR paperback covers? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . yes. I remember that Pippin became Pepsi in the parody. Frodo was Frito. Samwise was Spam Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . Frito and Spam. Pepsi and Moxie. Arrowroot, son of Arrowshirt AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh yeah Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . Gimlet and Legolamb AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and Celeborn was Cellophane Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . oh yes! and Gladwrap AelKennyr Rhiano: . . oh...oh...and Treebeard the Ent was Birdseye the Vee-Ates Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . oh, and he talked just like the Jolly Green Giant! AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and the orcs were narcs. yes! lol Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . and the sheep-riders, with their German accents AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh AelKennyr Rhiano: . . ummmm...we didn't talk about the coming of men at all Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . we tried to Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . are we enjoying these discussions? Do we want to keep doing this? AelKennyr Rhiano: . . heh heh Hopefully we are not boring Shawn Shawn Daysleeper smiles. No you are not AelKennyr Rhiano: . . http://gomni.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/main.htm I didn't know about this Shawn Daysleeper: . I have not seen this Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . oh dear, movies Shawn Daysleeper: . lol AelKennyr Rhiano: . . lolol Shawn Daysleeper grins Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . here comes Rajani Rajani Milton: . . . . . . Oselle! Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . this is my sister Rajani {Greetings} Rajani Milton: . . . . . . So have we been discussing the attractiveness of certain Edain, or has the discussion moved on? Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . Ilmare IS a more canon patron than Tilion. It was more like whether Legolas was hot Rajani Milton: . . . . . . but probably not as good a consort Ah! AelKennyr Rhiano blushes and grins Rajani Milton: . . . . . . Dark-haired Legolas yes, blond Legolas meh Shawn Daysleeper grins AelKennyr Rhiano: . . There is hair dye for that...blushes and smiles. Well, we didn't discuss Chapter 12 but we enjoyed ourselves AelKennyr Rhiano: . . and besides...humans are dull Shawn Daysleeper: . ✦✧HaHaHa✦✧ AelKennyr Rhiano: . . you just get them all housebroken and then they up and die on you Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . Chapter 12 was where the humans showed up AelKennyr Rhiano: . . housebroken* Shawn Daysleeper: . thank you for the fun discussion, but I need to go sleep Lihan Taifun:. . . . . . . and then they crowd the elves out, for no reason Rajani Milton: . . . . . . they do