Tolkien Discussion Group
May 19, 2010
Topic: Good Kings
(or, "What Does Aragorn Have that Denethor Doesn't?")
Present:
Shawn Daysleeper
AelKennyr Rhiano
Lihan Taifun
Fifi Wickentower
Dominique Darkwatch
Summary:
Aragorn is an archetypal reluctant king.
He is heretidary leader of the Rangers, the last remnants of the long-ago North Kingdom, and also has some connection to the kingship of the South Kingdom, Gondor, which is now declining.
In his younger days, Aragorn was mentored by Gandalf. Aragorn also spent time in Gondor, as a charismatic and sucessful warrior, under the name Thoringil.
Denethor never was a warm "people person", but he was a strong and wise leader, at least until he came under the influence of misinformation via the palantir. We speculate he may have started using the palantir at the time of his wife's death, shortly after Faramir was born. He would have been especially susceptible to depression then. Sauron skewed what Denethor could see with the palantir, convincing him that defeat was inevitable.
Aragorn also had a battle of wills with Sauron, when he used the Isengard palantir, but Aragorn was better prepared, expected to see Sauron, and was not already depressed, at that encounter. So Aragorn got away much more easily.
Denethor was very personally attached to his power as ruler. We can't imagine him giving that up, and therefore we can't imagine him even accepting Aragorn as the rightful heir of the kings. He might have stalled forever on the legal loophole that Aragorn's ancestor Isildur was only king of the north kingdom.
Aragorn was concerned with what was best for the people. That included not starting public political arguments in the middle of a big war, especially a war he himself might not survive.
Aragorn could envision a peaceful future, and thus as king could lead the people to peace, not to a constant state of war.
Did Eomer have the vision to lead as a peacetime king? We don't see enough of him to tell.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . What did you think about this week about kings?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I thought alot about Aragorn at the reluctant king...that almost Arthurian mythos
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Reluctant in what way? I don't remember him that way
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It would have been easier to remain Strider, no? At first, when we meet him, he is a loner. He joins the fellowship, but he is more bodyguard, more of .....thinks
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I suppose, although he seems to have some responsibilities among the Rangers
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . But even then...Rangers are still not social butterflies
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . true
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . They are tight knit, that is true, but they receive their orders from others. And as Strider, he is but one of many
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Do they receive orders from others?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Someone has to command the rangers, I would think? Would there not be some chain of command?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And I thought he was their heredetary chief
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . or do I have that part wrong?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Them being all that is left of the North Kingdom. Perhaps I am reading into it what is not there.
{Fifi arrives. Greetings}
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Ael was just starting to explain why he thinks of Aragorn as a "reluctant" king
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I agree he was reluctant. He had to struggle to secure his ruined kingdom. Against people that were currently in charge
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I felt he had to struggle within
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . that would be the north kingdom,or the south, or both?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . The north was destroyed at some time before, the south was week and declining
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So why didn't he go down decades earlier, and straighten them out?
{Dominique arrives. Greetings}
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He was being trained by Gandalf
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Was he?I missed that
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He met Gandalf at age 20 after leaving Rivendell
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Was he trained in an official way, or more like mentored?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . And was being mentored for the next 30 while he was wandering
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . oh, heh heh
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . mentored as I understand it. sorry :)
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . :) That was what I was thinking
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So I guess it was during that time he learned of his heratage, while Denethor was running the south kingdom Gondor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Denethor wasn't doing such a bad job of it
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . True, but he was a steward, not a king
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Not sure that mattered much to Denethor
Dominique Darkwatch: . Before or after he started using the Palantir?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . When did he start?
Dominique Darkwatch: . I'm not sure, but I don't think he started his tenure using it
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . probably not
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I don't remember....No, I don't think so, either
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . but he must have been using it for a while, : years, maybe?
Dominique Darkwatch: . And it seems that corrupted him
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Denethor started in 2984 and ruled for about 40 years
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . At the start he was considered a man of great will and foresight. His problem was that he did not connect with his people
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So they turned to Thorongil
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Thorongil?
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . As stated in the early chapters and the Appendices of The Return of the King, Denethor, son of Ecthelion II, was widely considered a man of great will, foresight, and strength. However, he failed to reach out to his people, who flocked instead to Thorongil, an outsider who served Denethor's father with great renown. Thorongil vanished from Gondor four years before Denethor would succeed his father as Ruling Steward. Thorongil (who was secretly Aragorn, Chieftain of the Dúnedain of the North and hence a claimant to Gondor's throne) had advised Ecthelion to put faith in the wizard Gandalf, whom Denethor distrusted.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ah
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . He married Finduilas, daughter of Prince Adrahil of Dol Amroth. She gave birth to two sons: Boromir and Faramir, before dying young. Denethor never remarried after his wife's death, and became more grim and silent than before.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I knew Aragorn had spent some time earlier in Gondor, incognito
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . So I wondered if he started usuing the palantir after his wife's death.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . When did Sauron capture Minas Ithil and the Ithil palantir?
Dominique Darkwatch: . It may not have been so corrupting until Sauron and Saruman got theirs
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . ya that's what I'm wondering
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . S.A. 3429, to answer Shawn's question
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . A palantir shouldn't be corrupting, in itself
Dominique Darkwatch: . But the tragedy of losing his wife would also make him bitter and more prone to darkness
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Ok, so Sauron had it a long time
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . I think he would be given to depression
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . makes sense
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . and then after using it, once he saw that Sauron would have such an overwhelming force. That had to further depress him.
Shawn Daysleeper nods
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It is stated that using the palantir aged him quickly, and that Sauron was also responsible for visions that were somewhat skewed.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Sauron started using that. Yep, putting a little "spin" on the information
AelKennyr Rhiano nods
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Yes . . he convinced him that deafeat was 'inevitable'. And then he was also concerned about losing his place as leader to Aragorn and Gandalf
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . However, Aragorn uses the palantir that belonged to Saruman, why wasn't he affected
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Aragorn reported he had a battle of wills with Sauron, when he used the palantir
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . Remember he had benefited from instruction from Gandalf and the elves
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . But then, he was expecting Sauron, so he was more prepared
Shawn Daysleeper nods. So aragorn has a stronger will
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . And he wasn't starting out depressed
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . perhaps...yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So sterngth of will may make a good king
Dominique Darkwatch: . Sauron could leverage Denethor's fears against him
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . It had to wear down Denethor to resist Sauron as he did.
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . At least lack of will would make a bad king
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .It wasn't denethor's will that was broken . .
AelKennyr Rhiano: . . . . No, I don't think so. I think that he was just worn down over time.
Dominique Darkwatch: . In the end, it was more his mind
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Although give him credit for holding out 40 years
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, being the attack front of sauron's armies, defensive wall of the west
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .it was the effort of maintaining a distance - while using the palantir over a long period of time
Dominique Darkwatch: . He was still willful in a way
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .he had a very strong will
Dominique Darkwatch: . His judgement was just twisted
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . by sauron
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Sauron was unable to break it . That is why he tried a spin instead
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Denethor had a stronger will than Saruman
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . agreed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . oh, good point
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .i think, tho, that his weakness came from 'personalizing' the rulership
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Denethor was decended from a long line of stewards all incharge of Gondor
{Ael leaves to attend business in Alqualonde.}
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Rather than the good of the whole . . he was fearful of being supplanted . .and after all . . Aragorn did have a blood tie to the throne
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .Yes he was . .and weren't they all in service to the king of Gondor?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, but the throne was vacant
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . It is hard to imagine Denethor ever accepting any claimant as king
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes . . nods. It also clouded his perspective, what he saw as a threat
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Denethor did raise a legal point that was never answered ... could a descendant of Isildur inherit the throne of Gondor? That could keep lawyers busy for generations
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .my thought too hehe
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . yes, that is like a dethrned king retaking over his country
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Isildur was king of the north kingdom, his brother Anarion was king of the south in Gondor
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . oh that complicates things
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Denethor raised that objection, with Gandalf. I don't think Denethor would ever have accepted Aragorn as the legal king. So he could have stalled forever, in handing over the government
Shawn Daysleeper nods
Dominique Darkwatch: . But after the death of Boromir...what would be the point?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maybe another reason Aragorn wasn't in such a big hurry to go down to Gondor and press his claim
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and perpetuate the division and separation of what could be, under insightful leadership, a unifying opportunity after 3000+ years
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Well, like you said, Fifi, Denethor was worried about his personal position, not necessarily what was best for the country
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and that is what kept him from being the 'hero king'
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and Aragorn, I think, WAS looking at what was best for the country, and not wanting to start a big political argument, especially in the middle of a war
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .He couldn't evolve into something beyond warrior . . after all, that is what his entire dynasty was based on
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . He had evolved into a politician (Is that "evolved"?)
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and yes Aragorn . . .
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I understand
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .and to Denethor . . they had gone feral
{Lihan crashed and relogs. Gap in the transcript.}
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .no proper land or leader . . not as he deemed strong and right
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Who is feral?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .the rangers
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . no decent plumbing, nothing!
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Their kingdom was destroyed by Angmar
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes!!!! . . . no proper anything . . . not enough structure
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . just trying to survive individually, unorganized men, so feral ya, and no plumbing
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I was thinking what a mess it would have been if Aragorn had declared himself king, pushed Faramir aside... and then gotten himself killed at the battle in Mordor. And poor discredited Shawn Daysleeper: . . . wow, didn't think about that
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I think that is one reason Aragorn didn't declare himself king, at that point, knowing he was riding off to another possibly fatal battle
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .alternate reality
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Aragorn knew that defeat was inevitable, unless the ring was destroyed and Sauron vanquished
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . so he didn't bother with politics
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . yes, exactly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . So why waste time, he cared for his people, he wanted to survive
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Which isn't necessarily what Denethor would have done
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . He wanted men to survive, as a kinderd
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes . . . exactly
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . That makes a good king as well, to have benevolence
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . To care about the people
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . exactly
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Whether the people survive was more important than whether he personally survived
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Agree
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .good of the whole . . ability to see what really is and to have a far-sightedness also
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Another thing, Denethor can rule during war, but Aragorn knows how to rule during peace. And envisions peace as the future of Gondor
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . hmmm, good point
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes. . . Aragorn is more than just a fine warrior/leader
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . not that Denethor was likely to have any peace
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .He could only envision strife
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Yes, which makes the people depressed
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Yes, he couldn't even imagine it. I think this ties into charisma, which Denethor seems to lack
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . apparently
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . If people like you they will do more for you, easy
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . and if you like them, it is easier for them to like you
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . What about the kings in Rohan? Theoden,and then Eomer? Were they good kings?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Theoden was bewitched and Rohan became a puppet state of Saruman
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . For a while. Obviously he wasn't a good king during that time
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . But after he was purified, I think he became better. But he still envisioned war as the future of man. I don't remember much about eomer after he became king
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . That happens so close to the end of the story
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Well, Rohan became part of Gondor, but was allowed to have it's own king? I believe. So not sure how much power he had
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . became part of Gondor?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . of reunited kingdom, sorry
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . I thought they continued to be allies. Politically, I'm sure Gondor was much more powerful
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . I don't remember much about Rohan after Eomer became king
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . They go back to Rohan; Eomer buries Theoden; he drinks a toast to his sister getting engaged to Faramir; everyone leaves
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Aragorn gave druadan forest to the natives, right?
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Sounds familiar
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . The Rohirrim hunted them it seems, under Theoden
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . So he had to make them stop hunting? Make the Rohirrim stop?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Maybe Eomer did. Or aragorn. I know the hunting stopped, so maybe both. Sorry off topic lol
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Eomer was rather in awe of Aragorn, I imagine he would do anything Aragorn asked
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . Agree. So maybe Eomer became a good king because of his awe of Aragorn. Maybe he would not been as good if not for Aragorn
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Would that make him a good king, or the puppet of a good king?
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . heh, possible
{Dominique leaves. Farewells}.
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . hmmm maybe we should continue next week
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . Maybe. Do you want to continue this topic?
Fifi Wickentower: . . . . . .yes
Shawn Daysleeper: . . . sure
Lihan Taifun: . . . . . . . . . ok, that's easy
